NEED HELP!! ASAP! WATER ISSUE AT APARTMENT BUILDING! PLEASE!

Multi-Family and Apartment Investing

NEED HELP!! ASAP! WATER ISSUE AT APARTMENT BUILDING! PLEASE!

OH · Member since 2014 · 454 posts · 227 votes

Hi everyone! I am in a big jam, here's my situation....

One of my recent aquistions was a 12 unit apartment building. After the 1st month, I received an astronomical high water bill/sewer. Where I purchased this building, the water bill can be $300 and the sewer bill is $900 (EPA mandates blah blah).... The building was trending between 27-55 CF's per month.. Since I received the more than double bill, I had the PM schedule a unit inspection the next day to check for water leaks. The guys found nothing major, few leaky showers and/or faucets/toilets.....nothing major. The next bill I received was 122 cf's. This month just read @ 145 cf's....

Besides all the money I'm spending on these high water bills eating profits, I CAN'T FIND ANY LEAKS!

I am lost what to do....I have checked all units, no one has complained about water issues or leaks from above units etc.

I feel helpless and a bit worried as to what to do. The only thing I changed/upgraded was putting in NEW washer/dryers which are MUCH more efficient than the last ones.

Can anyone please advise me as this problem is constant and I have no clue what to do.

The water is entering my building therefore being metered. My usage of water has now tripled in comparison the buildings last 1 year usage.

Any suggestions/help/advice would be greatly appreciated.

The building is located in Akron, Ohio

Thank you.

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Rental Property Investor · Mercer Island, WA · Member since 2008 · 22k+ posts · 14k+ votes

11y

The water meters in use here have a small spinning piece on them that will show movement with even the slightest amount flow. Does yours? Can you see it? If so, start by making sure everything is shut off in every unit. Then check the meter. If you have movement, something is flowing. If each unit has a shutoff, close all those. Still have movement? Its something in the lines between the meter and the shutoffs. That can be tough to find because its very possible the problem is a buried line. You may just have to start digging.

OTOH, if shutting off all the units stops the meter, then turn them on one at a time until it starts moving. That's your culprit. Something as simple as a leaky toilet can dump a LOT of water. There are colored tablets you can drop in the tanks. If there's leakage, you'll see color in the bowl.

You say:

I think you're too quick to discount these "not major" leaks. I had ONE leaky toilet that by itself dumped over $100 of water down the drain over the course of a month. This was in no way gushing. If the house was quite and you listened closely you could hear a slight trickle. If you watched the water closely in the bowl you could see very slight movement. A "few" leaky showers, faucets, and toilets could well be dumping a lot of water.

See this reply in the discussion

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Account Closed
Investor · Central Valley, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
11y
Originally posted by @Ryan Wattenschaidt:

If the water meter is inside near an exterior wall, meaning the water line comes directly into the building and heads right to the meter, you don't have an underground leak. To check for running toilets you can put food coloring in each tank. If there is a bad seal the food coloring will show up in the toilet bowl. Cheap way of checking the toilet tanks for leaks.
I've been on the West Coast so long, I forgot about interior meters. I haven't seen one that wasn't at the street in over 20 years.
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Account Closed
Investor · Central Valley, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
11y
Originally posted by @Jon Holdman:

Does the building have shutoffs for each unit? Even without submetering seems like it would be very useful to shut off water in one unit without affecting the others.
How do you have time to post this evening? Don't you have to go wrap your own pipes? Or winterize a vacant unit? Aren't you at, like 0 degrees?
0 Reply
Nik S.
OP
OH · Member since 2014 · 454 posts · 227 votes
11y
@K.MARIE POE : Ouch sounds like a low blow to us east coast folks :-).... I would be your way however I'm working on cash flow this way so I can afford to come to your neck of the woods! Soon enough, I shall have a home on the West Coast!
It's a low of 37-40 degrees right now....You mentioned winterizing units & I just sent that over to my PM to have the maintenance crew do there job before it gets real cold, thanks for the reminder!
Im definitely going to do the leak detector and go from there....I am excited to find out my SOLUTION to this problem. I was overwhelmed at first (there's a lot on my plate outside this building) and it was just another thing added to the list basically. Even though I have a a PM, ultimately it's my invest and I have to make the right calls to ensure the best for my investment.
Never let a PM run your business..Always manage your PM and your properties activity.
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Account Closed
Investor · Central Valley, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
11y
Originally posted by @Nik S.:

@K.MARIE POE : Ouch sounds like a low blow to us east coast folks :-).... I would be your way however I'm working on cash flow this way so I can afford to come to your neck of the woods! Soon enough, I shall have a home on the West Coast!
It's a low of 37-40 degrees right now....You mentioned winterizing units & I just sent that over to my PM to have the maintenance crew do there job before it gets real cold, thanks for the reminder!
Im definitely going to do the leak detector and go from there....I am excited to find out my SOLUTION to this problem. I was overwhelmed at first (there's a lot on my plate outside this building) and it was just another thing added to the list basically. Even though I have a a PM, ultimately it's my invest and I have to make the right calls to ensure the best for my investment.
Never let a PM run your business..Always manage your PM and your properties activity.
That message was directed at Jon Holdman in CO. It's way colder than 37 degrees there tonight.
Now that we know you have an interior meter, I'm not so sure leak detectors can be of help. Wait till the water dept. checks the meter and see what they say.
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Nik S.
OP
OH · Member since 2014 · 454 posts · 227 votes
11y
@K Marie Poe : Thanks for all your help....!
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Billy Rogers
Investor · nowhere, TX · Member since 2012 · 242 posts · 84 votes
11y
Nik,
You said "The building was trending between 27-55 CF's per month". Did you get proof of this or is this just what the seller told you?
Either way if I was paying the water bill I would lock/remove outdoor spigots, put in low flow shower heads, and install low flow aerators on all faucets.
Hope you get it figured out soon.
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Steve Olafson
Scottsdale, AZ · Member since 2014 · 659 posts · 536 votes
11y
I started my career as a plumber. It is all simple process of elimination troubleshooting. Any lines underground that are after the meter could leak without any visible signs. Lines that are under slabs are real tough to find and fix. Anything leaking in the walls should be visible.
Do you know what kind of pipes you have?
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Nik S.
OP
OH · Member since 2014 · 454 posts · 227 votes
11y
@Billy Rogers thanks for the suggestions!
1 Reply
Jon Holdman
Rental Property Investor · Mercer Island, WA · Member since 2008 · 22k+ posts · 14k+ votes
11y
@Account Closed suggestion. Have one person watch the meter and you run around and turn off individual fixtures and see which ones make a difference. Then fix those. Trouble with that is fixture shutoff's are often corroded and stuck. I always replace these with new ball valves. But a big project to bite off right now.
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Tommy Townsend
Professional · Fort Mill, SC · Member since 2013 · 12 posts · 6 votes
11y
If you can't find water leaking anywhere (and I do think you'd be able to find something wet, soggy, or at least evidence) I think your problem is in the meter and/or the modem the meter is read from. If I read one of your posts correctly, you said it is read electronically. If the modem is giving out false reads, your usage will never be right. I would have the modem and meter checked at the same time. I'm having a hard time believing it's just a leak.
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Roy N.Pro Member
Rental Property Investor · Fredericton, New Brunswick · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
11y
We test shutoffs when we perform our quarterly/semi-annual inspections of each unit - same time we test the smoke/CO detectors, clean filters, etc. The first time a unit we have acquired turns over, we typically replace all the older shutoff valves with ball valves.
1 Reply
Rob K.
Investor · Southeast, MI · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
11y
You said that this was a recent aquiaition. I would think back to when you first met the tenants. Did you possibly say something to one of them that rubbed them the wrong way and offended them somehow? If so, they might leave the water on all night in every faucet for payback. Maybe it's my devious mind, but that's the first thing that I thought of. You might have one rogue tenant jacking your bill.
2 Reply
Nik S.
OP
OH · Member since 2014 · 454 posts · 227 votes
11y
@Tommy Townsend
Check this out... 2 weeks ago when I was there, behind the building the grass was extremely wet & soggy. Behind the building is a decent slope which the building sits at the bottom. I assumed it was just rain water draining off. It just so happens that the water lmeter is directly in front (inside utility) of the soggy ground. I'm going there today or Sunday to re-inspect. It's 30 degrees here, if that's the issue will the water still show as soggy?? I guess we'll see if that's ny problem. I could be wrong but it's worth a shot to go see if that soggy ground still persists...
Thanks guys. This is a first for me, thanks for baring all suggestions. I'll post pics of what I think maybe an issue.
0 Reply
Pat L.
Rental Property Investor · Upstate, NY · Member since 2012 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
11y
assuming you find there are no supply line or fixtures leaking consider this.
We had two old lady tenants whose water usage suddenly tripled & they complained wanting us to pay a portion of their bill. In fact the usage was so high the city personally called us after we entered the usage online & sent out a tech to test the lines, meter etc bu nothing found.
Then we discovered she was taking in washing for the neighborhood so she pays a large water bill without complaint.
1 Reply
Marty Happle
Investor · Perth Amboy, NJ · Member since 2013 · 110 posts · 21 votes
11y
My brother has about 50 buildings and in his 30 years of landlording he has seen a lot. He had a car detail shop next door tap into his water line with help from his super. The super got canned and the line removed. I'm not sure how close the neighbors are, but someone could tap in.
1 Reply
David DuCille
Residential Real Estate Agent · Tampa, FL · Member since 2014 · 177 posts · 122 votes
11y
first th ing that jumps out to me because I'm a skeptic of all things govt is that this is an error by the utility. There was a case down here in florida recently where a woman incorrectly got a $3000 water bill for a single family house!!!! There could be something faulty going on with the meter. good luck figuring it out, maybe it's time to drill a well! Thank god the govt doesn't charge us for AIR at least!
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Nik S.
OP
OH · Member since 2014 · 454 posts · 227 votes
11y
@David DuCille I hope your right. My meter is getting checked tomorrow.
I am en route to my building now. Going to take pictures as well as identify the meter, shut off all water & see if leak detector is still moving. Wish me luck!
I couldn't wait for someone to go so I got ahold of one of my guys and were cruising there now!
0 Reply
Adam Dahlberg
Chandler, AZ · Member since 2014 · 67 posts · 34 votes
11y
Sorry to hear about your water problem. I had a similar issue on a commercial building that had accessible water spigots around the property. What I found out was happening were two things, first there was a leaky toilet in the female bathroom which I fixed. The main culprit I discovered was a pressure washing company who would come fill their 300-500 gallon water tanks up late at night and run their route. I hired this company to do my sidewalks previously and they saw the opportunity from then on to steal the water.
I took off all the spigot handles and posted a "Stealing water is a crime, Under Surveillance" sign next to all of them. Then mounted a wireless security camera system I got cheap on Craigslist around the building facing the spigots . The problem stopped. Luckily so did the dumpster bandit who would dumpster dive on a regular basis.
You can also meter each building separate through a meter company or research how to do it yourself .
Good luck
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Account Closed
Investor · Central Valley, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
11y
The chart you posted shows equally high use in May (52ccf). Assuming the meter is working correctly, that suggests to me that something is going on inside one or more of the units, or water is being taken by a neighboring property. Leaks don't usually get better over time or fix themselves but somehow the use dropped by half in June. And then jumped back up again the last month. I'd be looking hard at tenant use and running toilets.
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Jarrett Harris
Calumet City, IL · Member since 2014 · 312 posts · 49 votes
11y
@Roy N.
I would agree. I would replace all shower heads and Faucet aerators with the low flow style. You should save money almost immediately.
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Account Closed
Investor · Central Valley, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
11y
Originally posted by @Nik S.:

@Joel Owens We need a unit inspection on EVERY unit and found a few leaks here and there. One major where the filler valve was gushing water constantly...1-2 gallons a minute for a month. Roughly 40-50 cf's my guess a month. I am not sure that fixed the issue or if thats the issue. The toilet was constantly running as the filler valve was broke. Tenant NEVER called in (hispanic tenant, language barrier). The meter is inside and there are NO visible leaks anywhere near the meter.
I missed this. Earlier you posted that you found no major leaks. A constantly running toilet with an open or broken flapper is a MAJOR leak. Where I am water is more expensive. Water running at only 1 gallon a minute for a month is 42300 gallons. I pay $6.39 per HCF (748 gallons). That leak would cost me $370.00. My use last month was 4500 gallons for a family of 3. For sure that toilet was a major issue on your bill. I'd stop looking for a leak and look at the daily usage for the next few days. It should be under control at this point. I'd still be looking at why you have some months where water is double other months though.
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Nik S.
OP
OH · Member since 2014 · 454 posts · 227 votes
11y
@K.Marie Poe:
Yes, one toilet was constantly flowing copious amounts of water as the filler valve was broken. It was nuts! I addressed that issue and other smaller leaks. The filler valve was a major leak. I am unsure as to if I fixed everything as my bill read 145 Cf's from 10/7 - 11/7. I adhered to the issues 10/26-28th. I'm still trying to cross my T's and dot my i's.
I pay around $11 per HCF, which includes water/sewer...it's my sewer rate that's astronomical as the city is doing sewer work to create a more "green approach" to sewage. That man's toilet cost me a lot of money (Hispanic tenant, language barrier, never called in).
I went to the property at did some research. The "soggy" ground is irrelevant as it wasn't bad nor appeared to show any problems.
I did a full check on the leak detector as well, please note the videos. The first video was taking while the water was still turned ON and the rest were while the water was shutoff.
How does the meter look while the water was on?
The leak detector did NOT move when the water was shut off.......now what!
(videos coming)
0 Reply
Jon Holdman
Rental Property Investor · Mercer Island, WA · Member since 2008 · 22k+ posts · 14k+ votes
11y
Something is leaking downstream from the shut off valve, then.
A 1 gal/minute leak translates into 58 ccf/month, so that one leak may well account for a bunch of your overage. In my post I showed you how one leaky toilet for me consumed 24 ccf in a month. So the leaks you've fixed may well have resolve the issue. If there are still more known leaks, fix those.
Then, start reading the meter every day and keep track of usage.
The "c" in ccf means one hundred.
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Nik S.
OP
OH · Member since 2014 · 454 posts · 227 votes
11y
IMG 8437 from Nik S on Vimeo.
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Nik S.
OP
OH · Member since 2014 · 454 posts · 227 votes
11y
Please note how the meter reads...theres a "jump" when water is being used, like a click... is that normal?

IMG 8446 from Nik S on Vimeo.
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