NEED HELP!! ASAP! WATER ISSUE AT APARTMENT BUILDING! PLEASE!

Multi-Family and Apartment Investing
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NEED HELP!! ASAP! WATER ISSUE AT APARTMENT BUILDING! PLEASE!

Nik S.
OH · Member since 2014 · 454 posts · 227 votes

Hi everyone! I am in a big jam, here's my situation....

One of my recent aquistions was a 12 unit apartment building. After the 1st month, I received an astronomical high water bill/sewer. Where I purchased this building, the water bill can be $300 and the sewer bill is $900 (EPA mandates blah blah).... The building was trending between 27-55 CF's per month.. Since I received the more than double bill, I had the PM schedule a unit inspection the next day to check for water leaks. The guys found nothing major, few leaky showers and/or faucets/toilets.....nothing major. The next bill I received was 122 cf's. This month just read @ 145 cf's....

Besides all the money I'm spending on these high water bills eating profits, I CAN'T FIND ANY LEAKS!

I am lost what to do....I have checked all units, no one has complained about water issues or leaks from above units etc.

I feel helpless and a bit worried as to what to do. The only thing I changed/upgraded was putting in NEW washer/dryers which are MUCH more efficient than the last ones.

Can anyone please advise me as this problem is constant and I have no clue what to do.

The water is entering my building therefore being metered. My usage of water has now tripled in comparison the buildings last 1 year usage.

Any suggestions/help/advice would be greatly appreciated.

The building is located in Akron, Ohio

Thank you.

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Jon Holdman
Rental Property Investor · Mercer Island, WA · Member since 2008 · 22k+ posts · 14k+ votes
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The water meters in use here have a small spinning piece on them that will show movement with even the slightest amount flow.  Does yours?  Can you see it?  If so, start by making sure everything is shut off in every unit.  Then check the meter.  If you have movement, something is flowing.  If each unit has a shutoff, close all those. Still have movement?  Its something in the lines between the meter and the shutoffs.  That can be tough to find because its very possible the problem is a buried line.  You may just have to start digging.

OTOH, if shutting off all the units stops the meter, then turn them on one at a time until it starts moving.  That's your culprit.  Something as simple as a leaky toilet can dump a LOT of water.  There are colored tablets you can drop in the tanks.  If there's leakage, you'll see color in the bowl.

You say:

I think you're too quick to discount these "not major" leaks.  I had ONE leaky toilet that by itself dumped over $100 of water down the drain over the course of a month. This was in no way gushing.  If the house was quite and you listened closely you could hear a slight trickle.  If you watched the water closely in the bowl you could see very slight movement.  A "few" leaky showers, faucets, and toilets could well be dumping a lot of water.

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  • Nik S.
    OP
    OH · Member since 2014 · 454 posts · 227 votes
    11y

    This is when we shut OFF the water to the whole building and then inspected the leak detector.

    IMG 8450 from Nik S on Vimeo.

    0Reply
  • Patrick L.
    Real Estate Investor · Saint Petersburg, FL · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 951 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Nik S.:

    This is when we shut OFF the water to the whole building and then inspected the leak detector.

    IMG 8450 from Nik S on Vimeo.

     Well you appear to have it shut off 2 feet away from the meter, all that proves is your line isn't leaking in those 2 feet.  You need to shut off the water at each unit or to each device in each unit (every sink, toilet, etc) and then turn them all back on one by one to isolate your issue. 

    0Reply
  • Account Closed
    Investor · Central Valley, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    11y

    I'm not seeing a problem at this point, and not sure why you are.  You said you didn't find any leaks but in actuality you did find and address a major leak. Your October bill was high as you didn't fix the major leak until 10/28.  Logically, your next bill for November usage will be lower. If you are really concerned, you can also get an average of daily use over the next few days.  Not sure what all the drama is about.  :)

    0Reply
  • Joel OwensBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    11y

    Nik as was mentioned the water department if you usually show with documentation and receipts  the items were repaired then they will usually credit that past month. If you keep having things over and over again each month they will start telling to eat that overage yourself. The water department is a for profit entity in most places and not the Red Cross.

    Rather than having old toilets in the units where one breaks and then another leaks etc. have you thought about just replacing ALL the toilets with new ones?? Some cities or counties offer rebates for moving to low flow toilets to offset your cost.

    The problem with the old toilets is one month you will fix one and then boom 2 months later 2 others go down. If your tenants are heavier or older in age a handicap raised toilet might work better where they do not have to rock back and forth to get up. If they have to do that the seals for the wax ring can go bad among other things and cause issues.

    There are so many places where the toilets can leak it would amaze you the damage they can cause. If you look at new toilets do not go for the cheapest. Make sure they have a nice smooth glazing on the inside just like the out. The cheap ones might not  have glaze on the inside and everything sticks and causes clogs. Also the throat opening of the bowl being larger is important for waste to go down and not get stuck. The less repair calls and leaks you have the more you generally save on your water/sewer bill, secondary damage to your unit, and labor repair calls.

    No legal advice.

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    2Reply
  • Nik S.
    OP
    OH · Member since 2014 · 454 posts · 227 votes
    11y

    @K Marie Poe: All the spigots were shut off. No leaks. Meter is fine. I'm over this drama as well!

    My guess NOW is that the bill hasn't reflected the changes yet and come December, I will report back!! Hopefully with GREAT news. Thanks for all the support & trouble shooting.

    Will keep everyone posted. We can add it to the "things to do when you buy an apartment building"....CHECK FOR LEAKS!!!!

    0Reply
  • Account Closed
    Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2014 · 577 posts · 203 votes
    11y

    @Nik S. 

    Check the water pipes going to the street.  There might be a leak before the piping gets to your units and if it is there, it's likely a big leak.  Get an experienced/reputable plumber out there and they should be able to locate it pretty quickly.

    0Reply
  • Jon Holdman
    Rental Property Investor · Mercer Island, WA · Member since 2008 · 22k+ posts · 14k+ votes
    11y

    @Account Closed  it appears the meter is somewhere inside the property.   So any leaks between the main in the street or alley and the meter wouldn't be the issue here.  That was my initial thought, too.  I have had that happen.

    I would say (not relevant to this situation) that if it is determined there's a leak in the line between a streetside meter and a property's interior shutoff that locating the leak carefully is probably a waste of time.  If its leaking one place its ready to leak anyplace.  Better to replace the whole thing.

    0Reply
  • Devin E.Pro Member
    Investor · Torrance, CA · Member since 2014 · 75 posts · 13 votes
    11y

    @Nik S. 

    I had a similar problem on my duplex. I received my water bill and it was $2,500. I had several plumbers come out and check the system, water pressure and anything else I could think of and they couldn't find anything. I didn't know what to do, then I had a friend come by and he checked the hardware in the toilet tanks and guess what, it was a broken flapper. This stupid little thing cost maybe $10.00 and ended up costing me so much one of the hinges broke of so every time u flushed the flap would not seat properly. you couldn't even hear the water running so this was a lucky catch for me. plus tenants of course never mention anything about running water.

    0Reply
  • Account Closed
    Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2014 · 577 posts · 203 votes
    11y

    @Jon Holdman 

    Thanks. Yes, I've had that sane issue as well after a foundation repair job. Turned out it was a leak in the sprinkler system box.  Lookout for plumbers who like to add extra 90 degree elbows or other "piping trips" to encourage repeat visits.

    0Reply
  • Nik S.
    OP
    OH · Member since 2014 · 454 posts · 227 votes
    11y

    @Jon Strishak  

    @Jon Holdman 

    The meter is inside my utility room. Im hoping the toilet leaks are all fixed and now I just have to wait until December to check the reading. Also per K Marie's suggestion, I am going got call next week to get the average used daily to give me a preview of where I stand..

    @Joel Owens - Yes Joel, good advice. I provided the water department with receipts of my efforts in changing shower heads (eco flow) and toilets in attempts to solve my water problem. They issued me a credit of $1600 as I mentioned earlier. It was clearly stated as a ONE-TIME consideration credit. 

    If the problem persists in December, I will outfit each unit with new faucets, toilets and shower heads. It may cost me $1500-2000 but that is 1 months bill if the high overage continues. Thanks for the tips. 

    0Reply
  • Rob K.
    Investor · Southeast, MI · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y

    If you change the toilets, I highly recommend the Gerber Viper. They cost around $100 and have a 3" flapper. It would take a sumo wrestler to clog it. I've been switching to those and haven't had any problems yet.

    2Reply
  • Nik S.
    OP
    OH · Member since 2014 · 454 posts · 227 votes
    11y

    @Rob K. 

    Done. Thanks for the tip, $100 for a good toilet, I'm all in! 

    Sorry to everyone in regards to my frantic behavior! Had no where to turn and was clueless. I'm not off the hook yet but will know soon. Thanks again everyone!

    0Reply
  • Roy N.Pro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Fredericton, New Brunswick · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
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    Originally posted by @Rob K.:

    If you change the toilets, I highly recommend the Gerber Viper. They cost around $100 and have a 3" flapper. It would take a sumo wrestler to clog it. I've been switching to those and haven't had any problems yet.

    Rob ... or go to a flapperless model and not have to worry about poorly sealed or torn flapper again.

    1Reply
  • Brad Laramie
    Coppell, TX · Member since 2014 · 8 posts · 1 vote
    11y

    I had a similar issue at a 236 unit apt community. We narrowed it down to a meter feeding 2 of the buildings, from there walked each unit and found nothing. A week later we discovered there was a break in the main line going into the building, but there was concequently a break in the sewerline within  a foot of each other. Turns out we were loosing 25 gallons per minute and the water was just going into the sewer line so nothing was visible aside from the growing water bills.

    Food for thought in case anyone is looking for an answer in the future.

    0Reply
  • Matthew Paul
    Severna Park, MD · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 7k+ votes
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    Shut off the main in the building and see if the meter is still running , if you cant do it call a plumber . 

    0Reply
  • Account Closed
    Investor · Central Valley, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Brad Laramie:

    I had a similar issue at a 236 unit apt community. We narrowed it down to a meter feeding 2 of the buildings, from there walked each unit and found nothing. A week later we discovered there was a break in the main line going into the building, but there was concequently a break in the sewerline within  a foot of each other. Turns out we were loosing 25 gallons per minute and the water was just going into the sewer line so nothing was visible aside from the growing water bills.

    Food for thought in case anyone is looking for an answer in the future.

    Wow. Supply and sewer breaking at the same time, within a foot of each other?  You can't make that stuff up.  

    0Reply
  • Steve Vaughan
    Rental Property Investor · East Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
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    Note to self: call water dept before purchase and get bill & use history.  On toilet fill valves, I buy the kind that have a clamp that can restrict flow to the overflow tube (bowl) as well as a clasp that keeps the fill valve bobber in the top position until flushed.  Keeps the tank from filling all the time when the flapper fails.   They are only a couple bucks more than a normal fill valve.  Thanks @Rob K. please keep us posted!

    1Reply
  • Nik S.
    OP
    OH · Member since 2014 · 454 posts · 227 votes
    11y

    @Steve Vaughan  thanks for the great suggestion. Trust me, you will hear from me. I'll be calling next week to find on the usage for the new period. I'm praying I'm back to normal. 

    0Reply
  • Michael Tempel
    Property Manager · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2014 · 380 posts · 167 votes
    11y

    This sounds like it could be an underground leak.  I had the unfortunate issue myself where the main line was leaking after the meter (if it leaks prior to the meter the city takes the loss).   Use a leak detection service and unfortunately be ready to have a new main line installed on your side of the property (this is at least the case in the city I had it happen). 

    Never a fun experience.   Another tell tail sign is if you see a lot of sediment coming from any of the faucets.  Usually a sign the line has a bad leak.

    0Reply
  • Nik S.
    OP
    OH · Member since 2014 · 454 posts · 227 votes
    11y

    Just an update:

    I called the water department to get a mid month read. From 11/7 - 11/17 (10 days), the building has used 32 HCF's of water....I am still in trouble. Looks like I have to call the leak detection specialist if one is available in my area.

    If not then I guess I call a plumber.

    It's never easy... :-\

    0Reply
  • Nik S.
    OP
    OH · Member since 2014 · 454 posts · 227 votes
    11y

    The Leak Detection Service is charging me $195 per hour with a (2) hour minimum.

    Curious, how does that sound to those who have hired such services?

    K Marie Poe?

    0Reply
  • Account Closed
    Investor · Central Valley, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    11y

    The times I've called it took way less than an hour and it was $175 minimum.  A 2 hour minimum is gouging IMO.

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  • Nik S.
    OP
    OH · Member since 2014 · 454 posts · 227 votes
    11y

    well he's the only guy listed under "leak detection services". I told him I have other units in the area as well as I can hook him up on the PM vendor list. My PM's company manages 1200+ units, he could get a lot of business. I told him to give me a break if possible. 

    He explained how much the equipment is etc... Regardless, I'm in a situation where my bill should be $500 & it's $1500

    I have to do what is needed, I'm desperate as its urgent. Tomorrow he will be checking it out. Will keep you all posted . I have to find this leak asap. 

    0Reply
  • Steve Olafson
    Scottsdale, AZ · Member since 2014 · 659 posts · 536 votes
    11y

    I hate to say it but none of this stuff is rocket science.  It is all a matter of isolating the area with the leak.  None of us posters can see how your pipes are running so it is really hard to give advice.  The fortunate aspect is that it looks like your pipes are copper.  This is easy enough to work with.

    You should probably call a plumber first.  They should be able to isolate the problem to a certain location.

    Do your pipes go back underground after the meter?

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  • Nik S.
    OP
    OH · Member since 2014 · 454 posts · 227 votes
    11y

    No, it's absolutely not rocket science after you narrow down the source of the problem.....when something like this happens, first thing that comes to mind is LEAK...so what do we do, WE check for leaks. 

    Leak Detector Specialist went to the building and signified there is NO leak. He simply looked at the leak detector (which I did the SAME thing last week), and stated if there was a leak, the leak detector dial would constantly be spinning. Oh ya, he charged me $175 to tell me the same thing I told him on the phone, go figure. 

    My maintenance guy inspected the bottom floor units AGAIN and found no problems.

    So here I stand beside myself, with only one thing in mind....tenants are either STEALING my water and/or using it in EXCESS. There's (10) units rented out in that building. 

    As I said, from 11/7 - 11/17, 32 HCF's have been used, that is WAY above where it should be.

    Now how to resolve the tenants excess usage? Low flow shower heads will help but I doubt people are taking 24 hour long showers.....this is something else. 

    I am going to go ahead and pull the plug on that there is a leak.....it's someone abusing the water.

    Frustrated.

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