NEED HELP!! ASAP! WATER ISSUE AT APARTMENT BUILDING! PLEASE!

Multi-Family and Apartment Investing
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NEED HELP!! ASAP! WATER ISSUE AT APARTMENT BUILDING! PLEASE!

Nik S.
OH · Member since 2014 · 454 posts · 227 votes

Hi everyone! I am in a big jam, here's my situation....

One of my recent aquistions was a 12 unit apartment building. After the 1st month, I received an astronomical high water bill/sewer. Where I purchased this building, the water bill can be $300 and the sewer bill is $900 (EPA mandates blah blah).... The building was trending between 27-55 CF's per month.. Since I received the more than double bill, I had the PM schedule a unit inspection the next day to check for water leaks. The guys found nothing major, few leaky showers and/or faucets/toilets.....nothing major. The next bill I received was 122 cf's. This month just read @ 145 cf's....

Besides all the money I'm spending on these high water bills eating profits, I CAN'T FIND ANY LEAKS!

I am lost what to do....I have checked all units, no one has complained about water issues or leaks from above units etc.

I feel helpless and a bit worried as to what to do. The only thing I changed/upgraded was putting in NEW washer/dryers which are MUCH more efficient than the last ones.

Can anyone please advise me as this problem is constant and I have no clue what to do.

The water is entering my building therefore being metered. My usage of water has now tripled in comparison the buildings last 1 year usage.

Any suggestions/help/advice would be greatly appreciated.

The building is located in Akron, Ohio

Thank you.

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Jon Holdman
Rental Property Investor · Mercer Island, WA · Member since 2008 · 22k+ posts · 14k+ votes
11y

The water meters in use here have a small spinning piece on them that will show movement with even the slightest amount flow.  Does yours?  Can you see it?  If so, start by making sure everything is shut off in every unit.  Then check the meter.  If you have movement, something is flowing.  If each unit has a shutoff, close all those. Still have movement?  Its something in the lines between the meter and the shutoffs.  That can be tough to find because its very possible the problem is a buried line.  You may just have to start digging.

OTOH, if shutting off all the units stops the meter, then turn them on one at a time until it starts moving.  That's your culprit.  Something as simple as a leaky toilet can dump a LOT of water.  There are colored tablets you can drop in the tanks.  If there's leakage, you'll see color in the bowl.

You say:

I think you're too quick to discount these "not major" leaks.  I had ONE leaky toilet that by itself dumped over $100 of water down the drain over the course of a month. This was in no way gushing.  If the house was quite and you listened closely you could hear a slight trickle.  If you watched the water closely in the bowl you could see very slight movement.  A "few" leaky showers, faucets, and toilets could well be dumping a lot of water.

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  • Nik S.
    OP
    OH · Member since 2014 · 454 posts · 227 votes
    11y

    Keep in mind, there is only (1) new washer for the whole building, nothing else has changed.

    0Reply
  • Joel OwensBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    11y

    I would say check your main meter and see if it is reading correctly. Do they do a manual in person read or the remote reading??

    When I had a talk with the water engineer he would state if the water meter was going bad generally it would slow down rather than speed up.

    How is the water pressure?? You can have water leak going from the main at the street before it hits the building. Do you have galvanized for the main or copper??

    It's kind of impossible to tell you without being there. With water it can be 100 different things.

    If you can demonstrate the leaks to the water department they will usually do a bill correction adjustment for most of the leakage. They will not keep doing it month over month however. 

    No legal advice   

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  • Nik S.
    OP
    OH · Member since 2014 · 454 posts · 227 votes
    11y

    @Joel Owens 

    Thanks for coming thru quickly, as always. I'm jammed up as you can see. My bills are $1100-$2000 for 12 apartments and I'm trying everything.

    They do not estimate, they can remotely access water meter to get reading so its actual.

    I have contacted the main guy at Akron's water department and he is getting back to me @ 5pm tonight to see If they are going to do a "one-time consideration credit" to my account.

    However in the meantime, who do I call to get the main lines inspected, perhaps there's an unground leak??

    Joel, can't thank you enough for touching base, it's boggling my mind and profits.

    0Reply
  • Beverly Meola
    Real Estate Agent · West Boylston, MA · Member since 2014 · 47 posts · 13 votes
    11y

    @Nik S.  is there a central heating/cooling plant for the building?  Are there any exterior or common area water spigots?  Landscaping irrigation on the same meter?

    0Reply
  • Beverly Meola
    Real Estate Agent · West Boylston, MA · Member since 2014 · 47 posts · 13 votes
    11y

    Did you retain the existing property management team? 

    0Reply
  • Rocky V.
    Rental Property Investor · Arlington, TX · Member since 2012 · 788 posts · 640 votes
    11y

    Check the ground for any wet spots.  I would also recommend dropping food coloring into the tanks of toilets and seeing if you notice it in the bowls.  There may be a small leak from your tank to bowl connections. 

    1Reply
  • Joel OwensBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    11y

    If there are outside spigots someone could be stealing the water or a tenant and their friends and washing cars and letting the outside spigots run all the time. Usually inside for the outside spigot there is a water pressure regulator for the whole apartment unit and a separate line under a stair access. If there is not a separate meter on there you could have one installed for each outside spigot to see if that is where the issues are.

    You need to go unit by unit and make notes of any leaks for toilet bowl and tank, faucets, showers etc.  The water engineer will usually know what Is an average usage for a 3 family in a 2 bed unit.

    The main at the street the city or county is usually responsible for but after the meter on your side in the ground running to your building(s) you would need to get a plumber for that. MAKE SURE you talk to other local multifamily investors to get a plumber that is recommended that they use. Those plumbers understand investors and do things for a better price for volume versus retail plumbers.

    Check water pressure and make sure your regulator for each unit is working properly and not over pressurized. If it is it will cause leaks in the unit and seals to go bad faster. If that is good for each unit but water pressure is low then likely the main outside going to the street has some leaks in it and is bleeding out water. 

    Could be the meter itself when you pop off the hood look at the meter connection for the main. If it hasn't rained and it's wet there likely a leak. Look to see if the leak is on the side connected to county or city. If it is they should be called out to fix at no cost. If it's on your side and leaking the plumber has to fix that and you pay the cost.

    At least calling the plumber on a weekday will be cheaper than the weekend prices. They will systematically go through many of the steps I have mentioned and more to see where the issues are.

    If landlord pays the water tenants use 30 to 35% more water with no leaks! This is why I DO NOT buy anymore properties with landlord paid water unless I know 100% a direct connection can be made to the water company and cut off for each tenants I am not responsible for it. I also make sure the bill follows the tenants and the water company is not allowed to lien my property.    

    No legal advice.      

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    4Reply
  • Anthony GaydenPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Omaha, NE · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
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    @Nik S. 

    Call up a sub-metering company immediately. This probably has absolutely nothing to do with leaks. Your tenants are simply put wasting water. Washing their cars, filling up kiddie swimming pools, hosing down the parking lot, etc. Lock all public spigots, or remove them, and sub-meter every single unit. Believe me, your water issue will suddenly disappear. 

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    2Reply
  • Ryan Wattenschaidt
    Investor · York, PA · Member since 2014 · 28 posts · 5 votes
    11y
    Is the water meter inside or outside?
    0Reply
  • Jon Holdman
    Rental Property Investor · Mercer Island, WA · Member since 2008 · 22k+ posts · 14k+ votes
    11y

    The water meters in use here have a small spinning piece on them that will show movement with even the slightest amount flow.  Does yours?  Can you see it?  If so, start by making sure everything is shut off in every unit.  Then check the meter.  If you have movement, something is flowing.  If each unit has a shutoff, close all those. Still have movement?  Its something in the lines between the meter and the shutoffs.  That can be tough to find because its very possible the problem is a buried line.  You may just have to start digging.

    OTOH, if shutting off all the units stops the meter, then turn them on one at a time until it starts moving.  That's your culprit.  Something as simple as a leaky toilet can dump a LOT of water.  There are colored tablets you can drop in the tanks.  If there's leakage, you'll see color in the bowl.

    You say:

    I think you're too quick to discount these "not major" leaks.  I had ONE leaky toilet that by itself dumped over $100 of water down the drain over the course of a month. This was in no way gushing.  If the house was quite and you listened closely you could hear a slight trickle.  If you watched the water closely in the bowl you could see very slight movement.  A "few" leaky showers, faucets, and toilets could well be dumping a lot of water.

    8Reply
  • Roy N.Pro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Fredericton, New Brunswick · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    11y

     I doubt his tenants in Akron are filling their kids' swimming pools this time of year ;)

    To be absolutely certain there is no leak, the OP could have the utility pressure test the lines from the lateral.  However, if he addresses the "nothing major" leaks reference above, he might just stem the flow from his wallet.

    Leak or no leak, sub-metering (if possible) is the way to go with water.  We update our units to low-flow fixtures and then put the accountability in the tenants' hands.   I also agree about the public spigots: we either remove them, shut-off water flow internally, and/or place them behind a lock plate.

    0Reply
  • Terence J.
    Oakland, CA · Member since 2013 · 15 posts · 18 votes
    11y

    I would call a company who specializes in finding leaks.  Having a PM look around is not going to do it.  I've used American Leak Detectors before with good results.  Not sure if they are in your area but I'm sure you can find something similar.

    3Reply
  • Alberto Cordova
    Realtor · Brownsville, TX · Member since 2014 · 66 posts · 12 votes
    11y

    If the water leaks are continuing. Maybe trying a pressure test in every unit? Could possible be if there are any leaks pressure would be of to your local standards. 

    0Reply
  • Pete Crutchfield
    Contractor · Arabi, LA · Member since 2014 · 20 posts · 4 votes
    11y
    Leak in the main from meter to units. Look for wet ground and call a plumber that is capable of this kind of work. You tripled the usage you have a leak.
    0Reply
  • Account Closed
    Investor · Central Valley, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    11y

    I second Jon's idea. With the kind of increase you are seeing, it should be visible on the meter.  Check the movement on the meter and then turn off the supply to the building.  If that meter is still moving it's somewhere in the main supply before it enters the building.  If there is lots of hardscape and/or no evidence of a leak, you'll need to call leak detection service.  They'll find it with sonar. 

    I sold a house last year fall that had the tiniest bit of movement on the meter.  The house supply was off, so any leak had to be between the meter and the house.  The meter guy and I decided it might be under the concrete driveway because we could find no wet spot.  Fast forward  to the day of closing 3 weeks later.  The meter guy comes out to get a final reading and the meter is spinning out of control.  He shuts it off and the agent calls to warn me about that my final bill will be bad news.  In the meantime everyone starts looking for the leak.  I had been there the day before and had heard water noises in the corner of the property, but upon inspection the neighbor's sprinklers were on, just on the other side of a wooden fence. Turns out that noise was the leak, a wide open broken elbow making a sink hole in the corner of the yard.  My final bill was an additional $350.

    3Reply
  • Account Closed
    Investor · Central Valley, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Terence J.:

    I would call a company who specializes in finding leaks.  Having a PM look around is not going to do it.  I've used American Leak Detectors before with good results.  Not sure if they are in your area but I'm sure you can find something similar.

    I've used them twice and they are totally worth it.  They mark the exact spot where you need to dig or break up concrete.  I don't know if they are national either, but for sure there is someone using the technology in the OPs area.

    1Reply
  • Nik S.
    OP
    OH · Member since 2014 · 454 posts · 227 votes
    11y

    First off, thanks EVERYONE for chiming in......ALL comments are welcomed & appreciated. 

    UPDATE: After being in touch with the main guy at the water department, he issued me a $1600 Sewer credit as a one time consideration credit. That's a good start to fix the  monetary problem temporarily. He mentioned I will not the get proper read until December 7th as I fixed the problems toward the end of the reading. Come December he will personally follow up with me.

    @Beverly Meola The building is heated by a boiler and no central cooling for the building. No landscaping irruption is in place & 1 or 2 spigots on the main ground floor. Also, the previous owner ran it himself, no PM. I purchased a set of (4) buildings and hired a PM company

    @Joel Owens  We need a unit inspection on EVERY unit and found a few leaks here and there. One major where the filler valve was gushing water constantly...1-2 gallons a minute for a month. Roughly 40-50 cf's my guess a month. I am not sure that fixed the issue or if thats the issue. The toilet was constantly running as the filler valve was broke. Tenant NEVER called in (hispanic tenant, language barrier). The meter is inside and there are NO visible leaks anywhere near the meter. 

    I have scheduled the water department to come out & inspect the meter as something may be faulty...praying it is but unlikely.

    @Anthony Gayden Theres a leak, I agree pete. However, we can't find it. We did a full inspection of kitchen sinks, disposals, bathrooms....My guess it's underground. Now how to go about..Who to call. I have great contacts, Im going to reach out to them asap

    @K.marie Poe : So I'll turn off the water to the building & then look at the leak detector. If it's spinning it signifies water leak, so Im told....Thanks for the reassurance and your input, it's well appreciated. 

    1Reply
  • Jon Holdman
    Rental Property Investor · Mercer Island, WA · Member since 2008 · 22k+ posts · 14k+ votes
    11y

    Does the building have shutoffs for each unit?  Even without submetering seems like it would be very useful to shut off water in one unit without affecting the others.

    0Reply
  • Nik S.
    OP
    OH · Member since 2014 · 454 posts · 227 votes
    11y

    @Jon Holdman , to my knowledge there is only 1 shutoff valve for the entire building..nothing separate. 

    My goal is to go and knock on all doors and give a heads up that the water will be shut off for 5-10 minutes. Make sure no one is in the shower etc and look at the water meter to see if it's still spinning... Does that sound like the 1st step before I call the yellowpages?

    1Reply
  • Roy N.Pro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Fredericton, New Brunswick · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    11y

    @Nik S. 

    Since you are/will be talking to the utility ask them first about testing the lines.   If they do not perform these tests themselves, they will undoubtedly have a list of service providers they recommend.

    That said, if you follow the steps Jon outlines above, you should be able to narrow down the location of any leak.    Since your units do not have individual shutoffs (something I would recommend you have installed if at all possible ... along with submeters ;-) ) you could go back to the "nothing major" items (toilets, faucets, etc) and close the shutoffs at each fixture to see if that stops your water meter from moving.

    0Reply
  • Steve Olafson
    Scottsdale, AZ · Member since 2014 · 659 posts · 536 votes
    11y

    I following up on Jon's comments, it is possible that there is a leak that is not visible.  Your idea of coming in at 3:am may work but it is still possible that there will be usage.  Most buildings have a shutoff at the building.  Hopefully there are a number of them.  If there are, shut them all off.  If the meter is not moving then there is no leak leading to the building.  If it is moving, then you need to try and trace the line or hire a plumber.

    In any case you want to try and find out where the lines are running and where the valves are.  Then troubleshoot one line at a time.

    0Reply
  • Nik S.
    OP
    OH · Member since 2014 · 454 posts · 227 votes
    11y

    @Steve Olafson @Roy N. 

    Thanks, you guys have eased my mind and I can sleep tonight. My plan is to do the suggestions per this topic. 

    Process of elimination. I will report back by Sunday on the "leak detector" status.

    Also, this Friday the water department tech is coming out to inspect the meter to check for an irregularities. As the rep told me, they obviously don't check units but will check the water meter to see if there's any faults. 

    Can't thank everyone enough as I had NO where to turn except here. 

    0Reply
  • Ryan Wattenschaidt
    Investor · York, PA · Member since 2014 · 28 posts · 5 votes
    11y

    If the water meter is inside near an exterior wall, meaning the water line comes directly into the building and heads right to the meter, you don't have an underground leak.   To check for running toilets you can put food coloring in each tank. If there is a bad seal the food coloring will show up in the toilet bowl.  Cheap way of checking the toilet tanks for leaks. 

    0Reply
  • Nik S.
    OP
    OH · Member since 2014 · 454 posts · 227 votes
    11y

    @Ryan Wattenschaidt The rep at the water department told me the same thing. Water meter is inside to my utility room where the boiler etc is....therefore no leak however I didn't trust the customer service rep...I'll do the food coloring method sunday as well. 

    0Reply
  • Account Closed
    Investor · Central Valley, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    11y

    If you are able to determine that there is a leak between the meter and the structures, be sure to call a leak detection service.  Don't just start digging.  Leak detectors use sonar (I think that's what it's called) to pinpoint the leaks.  You can actually hear the gurgling when they find the spot. Once you know where it is, you can strategize about how to access the leak and what will be required to replace the hardscape or landscaping.

    You may not need pressure testing in the units.  I'd start with the meter to the building first.  

    1Reply
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