NEED HELP!! ASAP! WATER ISSUE AT APARTMENT BUILDING! PLEASE!

Multi-Family and Apartment Investing
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NEED HELP!! ASAP! WATER ISSUE AT APARTMENT BUILDING! PLEASE!

Nik S.
OH · Member since 2014 · 454 posts · 227 votes

Hi everyone! I am in a big jam, here's my situation....

One of my recent aquistions was a 12 unit apartment building. After the 1st month, I received an astronomical high water bill/sewer. Where I purchased this building, the water bill can be $300 and the sewer bill is $900 (EPA mandates blah blah).... The building was trending between 27-55 CF's per month.. Since I received the more than double bill, I had the PM schedule a unit inspection the next day to check for water leaks. The guys found nothing major, few leaky showers and/or faucets/toilets.....nothing major. The next bill I received was 122 cf's. This month just read @ 145 cf's....

Besides all the money I'm spending on these high water bills eating profits, I CAN'T FIND ANY LEAKS!

I am lost what to do....I have checked all units, no one has complained about water issues or leaks from above units etc.

I feel helpless and a bit worried as to what to do. The only thing I changed/upgraded was putting in NEW washer/dryers which are MUCH more efficient than the last ones.

Can anyone please advise me as this problem is constant and I have no clue what to do.

The water is entering my building therefore being metered. My usage of water has now tripled in comparison the buildings last 1 year usage.

Any suggestions/help/advice would be greatly appreciated.

The building is located in Akron, Ohio

Thank you.

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Jon Holdman
Rental Property Investor · Mercer Island, WA · Member since 2008 · 22k+ posts · 14k+ votes
11y

The water meters in use here have a small spinning piece on them that will show movement with even the slightest amount flow.  Does yours?  Can you see it?  If so, start by making sure everything is shut off in every unit.  Then check the meter.  If you have movement, something is flowing.  If each unit has a shutoff, close all those. Still have movement?  Its something in the lines between the meter and the shutoffs.  That can be tough to find because its very possible the problem is a buried line.  You may just have to start digging.

OTOH, if shutting off all the units stops the meter, then turn them on one at a time until it starts moving.  That's your culprit.  Something as simple as a leaky toilet can dump a LOT of water.  There are colored tablets you can drop in the tanks.  If there's leakage, you'll see color in the bowl.

You say:

I think you're too quick to discount these "not major" leaks.  I had ONE leaky toilet that by itself dumped over $100 of water down the drain over the course of a month. This was in no way gushing.  If the house was quite and you listened closely you could hear a slight trickle.  If you watched the water closely in the bowl you could see very slight movement.  A "few" leaky showers, faucets, and toilets could well be dumping a lot of water.

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  • Nik S.
    OP
    OH · Member since 2014 · 454 posts · 227 votes
    11y

    One thing on my mind is to SUB-METER that particular building. 

    I cannot monitor water usage at this point however, once sub-metered, I can pin point who is the culprit. Then I can act accordingly. 

    Thoughts?

    I consider it an investment.

    What other options do I have at this point?

    0Reply
  • Nik S.
    OP
    OH · Member since 2014 · 454 posts · 227 votes
    11y

    I'm hearing costs of $350-$550 per unit to sub meter water. 

    I can change every toilet, faucet and shower but I still may not be able to tackle the problem.. $5000 to sub meter the water might be my only solution. 

    0Reply
  • Rob K.
    Investor · Southeast, MI · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y

    I'd be willing to bet that you either have a topilet (or toilets) that are running, or you have a diabolical tenant leaving every faucet on all night long.

    I would offer each tenant a small incentive to turn off the toilet valve one night before bed and then check in the morning when they get up and see if the toilet tank is full or empty. An empty tank (without flushing) means that it is running. Your little spinning dial on the meter won't tell you if it's happening, because it could take a half hour or longer for the toilet tank to leak down enough to activate the fill valve. Or, you could put dye in each tank and then tell the tenant not to flush for an hour or two. Then come back and see if any dye is in the bowl.

    1Reply
  • Steve Olafson
    Scottsdale, AZ · Member since 2014 · 659 posts · 536 votes
    11y

    The pictures you are showing are of the leak detector.  Where is the meter at?

    0Reply
  • Steve Olafson
    Scottsdale, AZ · Member since 2014 · 659 posts · 536 votes
    11y

    I see from earlier posts that the meter is in the same room with the leak detector is this correct?

    0Reply
  • Steve Olafson
    Scottsdale, AZ · Member since 2014 · 659 posts · 536 votes
    11y

    Some buildings can be submetered and some cannot.  It depends on how the pipes are run to the individual units. 

    0Reply
  • Nik S.
    OP
    OH · Member since 2014 · 454 posts · 227 votes
    11y

    @Steve Olafson 

    Note my videos please. The leak detector is on the meter itself (same dial) 

    0Reply
  • Steve Olafson
    Scottsdale, AZ · Member since 2014 · 659 posts · 536 votes
    11y

    I agree with you then, there are no leaks in the pipes. 

    If your pipes are run in such a fashion that there is an individual pipe servicing each unit and that pipe is accessible, then you may be able to meter each unit. 

    0Reply
  • Joel OwensBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    11y

    I didn't read through this whole thing again but have you talked to the water department engineer?? Not the collection people but the engineer.

    They should have usage average for apartments in the area based on the unit size and beds and water and sewer cost per gallon used.

    You can then match these up to your units and see if you fall inline.  You could have small leaks behind the walls etc.

    I have done all this and more before. Water is an absolute KILLER to cash flow. I would say it's almost number one.

    Many investors do not buy newer buildings because of price so lower K acquisition costs per door means an older building. Decades and  decades ago developers did not want to sub meter out water because it was so cheap they just included it in rent. They sub-metered out most of the other utilities when building.

    Fast forward to today and water is called " liquid gold ". My clients looking at 200,300,400 units do not worry about rehab as materials stay almost the same state to state and labor varies a little.

    What most worry about is landlord friendly or tenant friendly state with the eviction process and utility costs. The utility costs is what is hardest to control. You could do everything right and if water has a special assessment or hasn't went up in years and is due for per gallon increase then it can eat you up. You can't raise the rent in many cases to offset increases in utility costs even with no leaks so it eats into your returns.

    You better believe if the tenant is paying the bill or it gets shut off then they are telling you about a 10 cent leak! lol

    Nik maybe you could have a water conservation contest for the tenants?? Each month there is a winner of 100 off your rent to the person who uses the least water. You would need separate meters on each unit even if from a private company.

    Maybe also an award for reporting excess water usage or stealing.

    These ideas might be horrible I am just trying to think outside the box. 

    I just know from experience if you go to tenants and say please use less water so that I can save money they will laugh real hard at you. You have to give them an incentive that also helps you out.

    This post is not legal advice. 

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  • Roy N.Pro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Fredericton, New Brunswick · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Nik S.:

    I'm hearing costs of $350-$550 per unit to sub meter water. 

    I can change every toilet, faucet and shower but I still may not be able to tackle the problem.. $5000 to sub meter the water might be my only solution. 

    Nik,

    If every unit has an isolated water supply - even if they are T'd from a main (3/4" - 1") trunk line on each floor -  then sub-metering is fairly straightforward - make a straight run from the manifold {you will build} in the mechanical room/basement to each unit.  

    If units share a common water feed, then you will have more expense as plumbing will need to be separated and rerouted.  Walls, ceilings, floors subsequently will need to be repaired.

    0Reply
  • Nik S.
    OP
    OH · Member since 2014 · 454 posts · 227 votes
    11y

    @Roy N. 

    I will find that out on Sunday when we go to the property, I'll report back. I was speaking with a fellow BP mentor of mine and he stated I need to get my water meter replaced.

    All of this makes NO sense...The SAME tenants remain in the building for over a year.. It just so happens that the first month I take over this happened. The water company went out and did something however I am unsure as to what. I'm tired of playing the guessing game however process of elimination is my only route to troubleshoot this.

    Maybe I'm crazy but I'm definitely going to try and get a meter replacement. If I have checked everything for leaks, it leaves me no choice to sub-meter. But before that I am going to try and get a meter replacement.

    We are talking about 110,000 gallons of excess water, what can a tenant possibly be doing!!

    I am interested to see if each unit has an isolated supply! If so, I will most likely get it sub-metered for property appreciation purposes as well!

    Calling water department tomorrow as well as speaking with sub-meter guy to set up appt.

    0Reply
  • Nik S.
    OP
    OH · Member since 2014 · 454 posts · 227 votes
    11y

    Update: I am getting a new meter & getting the old meter tested. 

    0Reply
  • Rob K.
    Investor · Southeast, MI · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y

    How could the meter be a problem if the leak detector is not spinning? If the dial isn't moving, water isn't being used and you aren't being charged.

    I'm a gambler and I would bet a lot of money that this all comes down to a faulty toilet or a vengeful tenant.

    0Reply
  • Marcia Maynard
    Investor · Vancouver, WA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    11y

    Running a laundry business out of the unit.... or allowing homeless people an open door to using their shower!  I've heard of both happening.  I think you are on the right track though about the meter if you could not find a leak.

    0Reply
  • Nik S.
    OP
    OH · Member since 2014 · 454 posts · 227 votes
    11y

    @Rob K. 

    Scary to think however you never know! But it's just so odd that when I took over the SAME tenants remained (all in that building have been there for over a year) and all of a sudden the usage tripled! I've tried all resources to find a leak and it proves that the leak isn't prevelant

    0Reply
  • Kyle H.
    Cincinnati, OH · Member since 2014 · 122 posts · 29 votes
    11y

     Before you bought the property, how many years of bills did you gather?  Did you get just the past 12 months?  I am just curious as to how these bills have trended in comparison to the prior 3-5 years.

    0Reply
  • Nik S.
    OP
    OH · Member since 2014 · 454 posts · 227 votes
    11y

    @Kyle H. 

    I can honestly say that was one of my rookie mistakes when making such a large acquisition. I honestly didn't even look at the bills till after, I went off tax returns. Lesson learned, trust me. It's all a learning experience & I learn something new every day.

    I can tell you after all the issues I am having with this building, I researched the previous data about 1.5 years back. I own the building right next door (12 units) and it used 22 HCF's last month, its fully occupied. I just got the reading at 146 HCF's as you may have read.

    ****The water meter has been replaced****

    The meter read "0" upon installation & Sunday I'll be going up there to check where I'm at.

    In addition, I am going through ALL units AGAIN & putting colored dye in the tenants toilet tanks to check for any leaks.

    I am anxious to CLOSE this thread with an answer. I'll get it right soon enough...Can't wait so I can get my $1500 back into my pocket as opposed to the water departments!!!!!!!

    Thanks everyone!

    0Reply
  • Kyle H.
    Cincinnati, OH · Member since 2014 · 122 posts · 29 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Nik S.:

    @Kyle H. 

    I can honestly say that was one of my rookie mistakes when making such a large acquisition. I honestly didn't even look at the bills till after, I went off tax returns. Lesson learned, trust me. It's all a learning experience & I learn something new every day.

    I can tell you after all the issues I am having with this building, I researched the previous data about 1.5 years back. I own the building right next door (12 units) and it used 22 HCF's last month, its fully occupied. I just got the reading at 146 HCF's as you may have read.

    ****The water meter has been replaced****

    The meter read "0" upon installation & Sunday I'll be going up there to check where I'm at.

    In addition, I am going through ALL units AGAIN & putting colored dye in the tenants toilet tanks to check for any leaks.

    I am anxious to CLOSE this thread with an answer. I'll get it right soon enough...Can't wait so I can get my $1500 back into my pocket as opposed to the water departments!!!!!!!

    Thanks everyone!

    Although a mistake, it doesn't sounds too large of one, considering you own the next door building that is similiar to yours.  You already knew what it would cost you, on average, to buy another building.  I don't think one toilet is your problem.  However, keep us posted as things develop - I am interested to hear how it turns out @Nik S. 

    0Reply
  • Nik S.
    OP
    OH · Member since 2014 · 454 posts · 227 votes
    11y

    hi everyone, I'm doing the dye test at the property now... 

    **i got a new meter, can someone help me read this meter! How many gallons of water have been used thus far??

    0Reply
  • Nik S.
    OP
    OH · Member since 2014 · 454 posts · 227 votes
    11y

    is it "8" cubic ft x 100 = 800 gallons??? 

    I got it installed Friday morning. We have been trending @ 3500 gallons a day (huge excess)

    0Reply
  • John Verdier
    Rental Property Investor · Weatherford, TX · Member since 2014 · 12 posts · 11 votes
    11y

    Looks like 830 cubic feet to me.

    1 gal = 0.133681 cubic feet of water

    That breaks down to roughly 107 gallons.

    The small blue star also spins but that is 1/100th cubic foot. That't the one you would want to look at for small leaks.

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  • Nik S.
    OP
    OH · Member since 2014 · 454 posts · 227 votes
    11y

    thank you! I'm beginning to think my meter was faulty??!! 

    Someone who he been following, correct me if I'm wrong. I got the meter changed this past Friday @ 1:00 pm

    0Reply
  • John Verdier
    Rental Property Investor · Weatherford, TX · Member since 2014 · 12 posts · 11 votes
    11y

    Sorry correction

    1 gallon = 7.48052 cubic feet of water

    That's 6208.4 gallons

    Do you have an irrigation system? Have you checked the controller to confirm times and running schedule? 

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  • Nik S.
    OP
    OH · Member since 2014 · 454 posts · 227 votes
    11y

    I own a buiing next door same type, one more tenant and they use 20,000 gallons a month or 25 HCF's per month... 

    No irrigation system. 

    0Reply
  • Nik S.
    OP
    OH · Member since 2014 · 454 posts · 227 votes
    11y

    mistake ** 

    0Reply
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