5% cap rates for apts in Dallas area. How to find better returns?

5% cap rates for apts in Dallas area. How to find better returns?

Dallas, TX · Member since 2015 · 5 posts · 1 vote

Hi fellow Bigger Pockets investors!

It's nice to meet you all.  I'm a newbie to the forum but not a newbie to investing - I've owned / own a few properties (single family, duplex, etc.).  I've been trying to buy my first apartment complex in the <$2 million range within reasonable driving distance of the Dallas Ft. Worth area (<2 hours?), but I can't seem to find anything for sale that doesn't have a dismally low 5-6% cap rate!  These are older B and C class apartments we're talking about, too, and not Class A.  I'd love to hear your thoughts on and kick off a discussion on:

1.  Is it ever a good idea to buy an apartment complex at 5-6% cap rate using financing?

 (Especially since:  a)  the commercial lenders I've spoken to thus far all have balloon payments in 5 or 10 years...when interest rates go up, cap rates will surely follow... which means I may be forced to sell at a loss in a higher cap rate market or possibly be unable to refinance in a higher interest rate market if the cash flow then becomes underwater due to the higher rate?   b) This leaves almost no margin for positive cash flow if commercial mortgage interest rates are around 4.75%.)

2.  If not, do any of you have any experience or tips on how / where to find apartment complexes for sale that have cap rates higher than 5-6%?   

I've had no luck with MLS or Loopnet thus far.

Thanks in advance for chiming in, and I'm looking forward to becoming a part of and contributing to the Bigger Pockets community! 

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Joel OwensBusiness Member
Moderator
Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
10y

Property taxes in Texas will eat you alive on multifamily. A lot of properties are getting re-assessed with very high taxes.

Time to buy multifamily was 3 to 4 years ago. When everyone touts 3% vacancy, operating costs of 35%, and rent growth of 4 to 5% annually lasting forever you "run like h&ll".

Great times for a seller but crappy times for a buyer. Some will buy at a low cap rate and use a floating interest rate tied to LIBOR to eek out cash flow.

Real estate each asset class cycles at various times every 10 years or so. So if you have a loan coming due in 10 years there is a good chance you can sell and 1031 at the opportune time. When it's a 3 to 7 year loan it's more tricky for timing to dispose of the asset at the optimal time. 

There is long term debt out there but to push 20 years the interest rates will rise and almost wipe out any cash flow.

Those 5 caps or even 6 caps with Marcus and Millichap I could probably tear apart their OM's for stated estimated expenses.  When you run real numbers the cap rates are even lower at a 4.5 cap or something. A lot of these older buildings the sellers have smeared carpet and paint on them and left old mechanicals. Kind of like old cars where you can make shiny for 400 bucks with new paint but the stuff that costs thousands they don't touch. 

I haven't closed much multifamily for clients in years because the numbers do not work. I am doing more retail strip centers these days because they are a better value in the cycle and are not overheated like multifamily. We are getting 7.5 to 8.5 cap rates on quality properties.

Good luck but I wouldn't be buying an asset class that is overheated at the top of the market and using financing to massage the deal to get any cash flow out of it. That is sure fire way to lose a lot of money. I am not against multifamily I just can't put my clients into a property unless it makes sense.  

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  • Investor · North Richland Hills, TX · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    Check Marcus and Millican listings. There are a few properties with more than 6% cap rates. 

  • Joel OwensBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    10y

    Property taxes in Texas will eat you alive on multifamily. A lot of properties are getting re-assessed with very high taxes.

    Time to buy multifamily was 3 to 4 years ago. When everyone touts 3% vacancy, operating costs of 35%, and rent growth of 4 to 5% annually lasting forever you "run like h&ll".

    Great times for a seller but crappy times for a buyer. Some will buy at a low cap rate and use a floating interest rate tied to LIBOR to eek out cash flow.

    Real estate each asset class cycles at various times every 10 years or so. So if you have a loan coming due in 10 years there is a good chance you can sell and 1031 at the opportune time. When it's a 3 to 7 year loan it's more tricky for timing to dispose of the asset at the optimal time. 

    There is long term debt out there but to push 20 years the interest rates will rise and almost wipe out any cash flow.

    Those 5 caps or even 6 caps with Marcus and Millichap I could probably tear apart their OM's for stated estimated expenses.  When you run real numbers the cap rates are even lower at a 4.5 cap or something. A lot of these older buildings the sellers have smeared carpet and paint on them and left old mechanicals. Kind of like old cars where you can make shiny for 400 bucks with new paint but the stuff that costs thousands they don't touch. 

    I haven't closed much multifamily for clients in years because the numbers do not work. I am doing more retail strip centers these days because they are a better value in the cycle and are not overheated like multifamily. We are getting 7.5 to 8.5 cap rates on quality properties.

    Good luck but I wouldn't be buying an asset class that is overheated at the top of the market and using financing to massage the deal to get any cash flow out of it. That is sure fire way to lose a lot of money. I am not against multifamily I just can't put my clients into a property unless it makes sense.  

  • Rental Property Investor · Friendswood, TX · Member since 2010 · 663 posts · 508 votes
    10y

    I think to find deals you would have to work off market as those numbers you are describing make no sense. Also expand your horizons to other markets if the property size will support it. 

    We are trying to together a couple deals on mobile home parks within a two hour circle around Dallas  

    Most everything is around 10 caps also with some value add plays  

  • Rental Property Investor · Kansas City, MO · Member since 2014 · 72 posts · 28 votes
    10y

    10 to 15 cap rates all over Kansas City

  • Wholesaler, Rehabber and Landlord · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    10y

    You can find higher cap rates for multi family, but they are going to have to be value add types of properties. These properties are NOT going to be on LoopNet or MLS. You have to find the ones that need some bigger ticket items like roofs, hvacs, maybe even foundation. These would also be the ones where there is about 10% or 20% vacancy. This is where you can turn the property around and raise rents.

    You have to network with commercial brokers, Drive for $$$ and become a part of the commercial groups like the apartment association or property manager groups. Network with these people. The harder you work the luckier you get.

  • Rental Property Investor · Dallas, TX · Member since 2015 · 243 posts · 70 votes
    10y

    The Texas secondary markets such as Lubbock, Amarillo and Tyler should have higher cap rates.  Texas is overall a great market, thus attracts many investors.  The next few "off season" months may be a better buyer's market.

  • Investor · Honolulu, HI · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Timothy Aughinbaugh:

    10 to 15 cap rates all over Kansas City

    Is that normal or has the bubble burst in Kansas City or is there another reason the NOI is so undesirable and risky?

  • Investor / Real Estate Agent · Amarillo, TX · Member since 2015 · 68 posts · 11 votes
    10y

    @Sarah T.  There are a few multifamily properties in the Amarillo area with cap rates around 8% and value add possibilities.

  • Investor · Redlands, CA · Member since 2015 · 56 posts · 35 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:
    Originally posted by @Timothy Aughinbaugh:

    10 to 15 cap rates all over Kansas City

    Is that normal or has the bubble burst in Kansas City or is there another reason the NOI is so undesirable and risky?

    It's my understanding that KC did not recover as fully from the Great Recession as some other mid-west cities. It isn't in the toilet but the economy is underperforming. I heard from a commercial mortgage broker we've worked that he has multifamily clients who aren't risk averse moving into KC for the attractive yields.

  • Real Estate Services · Olathe, KS · Member since 2015 · 329 posts · 57 votes
    10y

    Chris, 

    We are located in Kansas City and are getting excellent ROI. Feel free to contact me to discuss.

    Jason

  • Atlanta, GA · Member since 2016 · 4 posts · 9 votes
    10y

    Don't confuse your going-in cap with a stabilized or exit cap. If you're looking at B-C properties I assume you're also looking at adding value. Are the current rents at market rate? Does the property need any capex investment? Any other value that hasn't been unlocked in the asset? You might purchase at a 5-6 cap on in-place NOI but with some targeted capex and rent bumps your stabilized NOI would normalize at a more reasonable number (8-9? Depends on your market) at which point the deal would make sense.

  • Investor · Honolulu, HI · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    JASON Changes in NOI does not CHANGE the cap rate.

  • Atlanta, GA · Member since 2016 · 4 posts · 9 votes
    10y

    Cap rate is a metric that quantifies the quality and duration of a set of cash flows. As such, cap rate can be a very dynamic, and generally unreliable, indicator of value on small multifamily deals due to value add nature of most deals, whether lease up/rent roll problems, capex needs, untapped income, etc; in a lot of markets, values of B-C deals are determined more on a per door basis. Cap rates on many of these small deals is more a derivation of NOI divided by what the seller wants or thinks it's worth rather than applying a cap rate consistent with the product type in a specific market to the in-place NOI.

    That said, NOI does impact proforma cap rates. Let's say I'm looking a deal that has $100k NOI and the seller wants $2mm for it -- that's a 5 cap and very hard to justify to my investors and lenders on a B-C deal. But my analysis shows that through cutting expenses, bumping rents and investing an additional $100k into the property I am able to increase NOI to $150k; now, my proforma cap rate is 7.1%, a number much more agreeable my investors and lenders ($150k/$2.1m).

    So, back to the OP's question -- should she dismiss a deal just because the asking price extrapolates to a cap rate that seems too aggressive for the product type?  Not necessarily as there may be value there that justifies the going in price, despite the nose-bleed cap rate.  

  • Investor · Princeton, TX · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    I found cap rates in the Metroplex on LoopNet at around 7% in her price range.  Like @Jason Munson mentioned that is starting price and may not represent what the cap rate could be achieved with rent adjustments and price reduction.

  • Investor · Honolulu, HI · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Jason Munson:

    Cap rate is a metric that quantifies the quality and duration of a set of cash flows. As such, cap rate can be a very dynamic, and generally unreliable, indicator of value on small multifamily deals due to value add nature of most deals, whether lease up/rent roll problems, capex needs, untapped income, etc; in a lot of markets, values of B-C deals are determined more on a per door basis. Cap rates on many of these small deals is more a derivation of NOI divided by what the seller wants or thinks it's worth rather than applying a cap rate consistent with the product type in a specific market to the in-place NOI.

    That said, NOI does impact proforma cap rates. Let's say I'm looking a deal that has $100k NOI and the seller wants $2mm for it -- that's a 5 cap and very hard to justify to my investors and lenders on a B-C deal. But my analysis shows that through cutting expenses, bumping rents and investing an additional $100k into the property I am able to increase NOI to $150k; now, my proforma cap rate is 7.1%, a number much more agreeable my investors and lenders ($150k/$2.1m).

    So, back to the OP's question -- should she dismiss a deal just because the asking price extrapolates to a cap rate that seems too aggressive for the product type?  Not necessarily as there may be value there that justifies the going in price, despite the nose-bleed cap rate.  

    JASON seller can WANT $2,000,000 but that DOES NOT create a cap rate unless someone analyses the NOI and puts his money where his figgering is and creates a cap rate comp.

    Again, changes in NOI does not CHANGE cap rate.

    What is this made up term "nose bleed" cap rate?

  • Investor · Honolulu, HI · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    I found cap rates in the Metroplex on LoopNet at around 7% in her price range.  Like @Jason Munson mentioned that is starting price and may not represent what the cap rate could be achieved with rent adjustments and price reduction.

    Exactly HOW do you "achieve" a cap rate? It is a market metric set when the buyer and the seller agree on a price for a NOI.

  • Investor · Honolulu, HI · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    NOI/Actual sales price= cap rate

    $100,000 NOI divided by market cap rate of say 10% = $1,000,000 market value

    $150,000 possible NOI / market cap rate of say 10%= $1,500,000 market value LESS the cost to improve the NOI to $150,000 that includes the extra risk!!!!

    Same MARKET cap rate, different value.

  • Investor · Princeton, TX · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    NOI/Actual sales price= cap rate

    The original post was about LoopNet advertised cap rates.  You are making the same point I was making.

    If the cap rate is advertised at say 7% at an advertised price, the real cap rate will be better if the actual sales price is less than full price.

  • Investor · Honolulu, HI · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    NOI/Actual sales price= cap rate

    The original post was about LoopNet advertised cap rates.  You are making the same point I was making.

    If the cap rate is advertised at say 7% at an advertised price, the real cap rate will be better if the actual sales price is less than full price.

    The only thing that is correct is that an advertised price is JUST an asking price. If the sales price is less than asking then the CAP RATE is not better, it's just the possible new market cap rate set by this ONE sale. If it's higher than market then the buyer may have set a downward market trend. If it's lower than market then he may have overpaid or identified a market that is increasing in value.

  • Investor · Princeton, TX · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    NOI/Actual sales price= cap rate

    The original post was about LoopNet advertised cap rates.  You are making the same point I was making.

    If the cap rate is advertised at say 7% at an advertised price, the real cap rate will be better if the actual sales price is less than full price.

    The only thing that is correct is that an advertised price is JUST an asking price. If the sales price is less than asking then the CAP RATE is not better, it's just the possible new market cap rate set by this ONE sale. If it's higher than market then the buyer may have set a downward market trend. If it's lower than market then he may have overpaid or identified a market that is increasing in value.

    I do not believe I have mentioned the Market Cap Rate.  I am only talking about the Cap Rates for each of the listings on LoopNet.  Since you have given the formula repeatedly I think you should realize that changing the price will change the capitalization rate.  This is perfectly simple.  As the price goes down the capitalization rate increases as the deal gets better.

  • Investor · Honolulu, HI · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    NOI/Actual sales price= cap rate

    The original post was about LoopNet advertised cap rates.  You are making the same point I was making.

    If the cap rate is advertised at say 7% at an advertised price, the real cap rate will be better if the actual sales price is less than full price.

    The only thing that is correct is that an advertised price is JUST an asking price. If the sales price is less than asking then the CAP RATE is not better, it's just the possible new market cap rate set by this ONE sale. If it's higher than market then the buyer may have set a downward market trend. If it's lower than market then he may have overpaid or identified a market that is increasing in value.

    I do not believe I have mentioned the Market Cap Rate.  I am only talking about the Cap Rates for each of the listings on LoopNet.  Since you have given the formula repeatedly I think you should realize that changing the price will change the capitalization rate.  This is perfectly simple.  As the price goes down the capitalization rate increases as the deal gets better.

    No, just no.  The only cap rate is the one created by a sale. That would be a cap rate created by a member of the market.   Loop Net, blah, blah are just figments. 

    I stated that CHANGING NOI would not CHANGE the cap rate. Now you are saying that paying MORE or LESS will change/create a property specific cap rate and I NEVER said it wouldn't. The higher the price for NOI would imply that the market is saying the DEAL is better than if the market is shunning a NOI and saying, well I'll take the chance to get the same NOI as the profitable properties selling at a 5% cap rate but I'm ONLY buying at a discount (10%) BECAUSE it is probably NOT a better deal. Why is that so hard to understand?

  • Investor · Princeton, TX · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    You are still about 10 steps ahead of what I am saying.  FORGET WHAT THE MARKET THINKS.  I am only talking about the Capitalization Rates of the proposed transactions on LoopNet.  Pure and simple... net operating income / price. 

    I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT VALUE.  I did not mention what a good Cap Rate is.  I simply said as the price decreases the Cap Rate increases.

  • Investor · Honolulu, HI · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

     ????

  • Investor · Princeton, TX · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    Exactly.  It does get better by definition.  That still does not mean it has any positive value.

  • Investor · Honolulu, HI · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    You are still about 10 steps ahead of what I am saying.  FORGET WHAT THE MARKET THINKS.  I am only talking about the Capitalization Rates of the proposed transactions on LoopNet.  Pure and simple... net operating income / price. 

    No, just no.  YOU said,

    net operating income / price

    PRICE?  It has to be market price to create a cap rate so how do you forget what the market thinks?   Proposed transactions?!!???  Why fill yer head with coulda woulda shoulda?

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