Roofing Quote Expert Advice

Brenda Whittaker · 2019-11-25T07:30:28-08:00

Any experts on roofing who can tell me if this looks like a good quote? I;m sure it does but are those good "coil fasteners", and does a city require a permit for this, I dont think so, and my biggest question here is, is there a potential problem with overlay versus total replacement? House was built 1952, roof is about 20 years old, my intent is to sell either now or in 2 years. Currently a rental, I want to get it FHA ready. Any FHA requirements on overlays vs total replacement? Thank you for any information you might be able to share. I researched FHA roof requirements, there is no mention of overlay vs replacement. Overlay Estimate We will install Malarkey Duraseal 3-tab shingles on slopes and the ridge. We will use 1 ¼” coil nail fasteners and apply roof caulking around pipe jacks and furnace pipes. install a synthetic permeable underlayment and obtain a city permit as required. We will do a thorough cleaning and haul off any of the discarded material. We will protect windows and landscaping with either tarps or OSB during the installation. Total overlay cost is $5,297.00 We will install Malarkey Duraseal 3-tab class 4 Impact Resistant shingles (potential insurance discount) on the slopes and ridge, galvanized pipe jacks, 1 exhaust cap, 1 electrical boot and 1 wind turbine is included in this bid. We will use a synthetic permeable underlayment on the slopes. Valleys will be protected with an ice and water shield underlayment. Ice and water shield will be applied to any areas of concern where a leak could potentially be created. This extra preventative cost is not passed onto you, we want ensure we install a solid roof. We will remove the discarded shingles and other material. We will protect windows and landscaping with either tarps or OSB during tear-off and installation. Full roof replacement comes with a 25 year manufacturer and a 5 year labor warranty. Total replacement cost is $6,860.00 We try to leave your house and yard cleaner then when we started. Magnets are rolled through the yard, flowerbeds & driveway by the crew to pick up any roofing nails. If the job takes two days, we clean up most the first day. The second day will be the final clean up. We typically have one crew member cleaning up throughout the day to minimize the amount to clean at the end of the day. - We are a certified Malarkey shingle installer

Mike ReynoldsPro Member

construction · Nacogdoches, TX · Member since 2011 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes

6y

@Brenda Whittaker They look fine to me. You will need a permit I am almost sure of that unless you are in the country. Coil nails are just regular nails so no difference there.

If you are worried about weight and want the insurance deduct, go with a metal roof. 1/3 the weight.

If you are going to sell anyway an overlay is OK if the shingle manufacture is good with it. Most are. Your roof bracing could be another story.Since it was built in the '50's it might even be 2x4 rafters. Check that first.

2 Reply

Brenda Whittaker

OP

Investor · Cottonwood, AZ · Member since 2015 · 287 posts · 57 votes

6y

Thank you so much. How does metal compare in cost? Does 2 x 4 rafters pose a weight caution? What would be an acceptable rafter measurement for the weight of an overlay? I will sell in 2 years if not now, wondering if FHA has any requirements on overlay vs replacement. FHA wants a new roof but I want to find out if they accept overlay for a buyer fha loan. If it were your investment property you would like to unload soon, what would you put up there?

0 Reply

Mike ReynoldsPro Member

construction · Nacogdoches, TX · Member since 2011 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes

6y

Originally posted by @Brenda Whittaker:

Thank you so much. How does metal compare in cost? Does 2 x 4 rafters pose a weight caution? What would be an acceptable rafter measurement for the weight of an overlay? I will sell in 2 years if not now, wondering if FHA has any requirements on overlay vs replacement. FHA wants a new roof but I want to find out if they accept overlay for a buyer fha loan. If it were your investment property you would like to unload soon, what would you put up there?

Metal runs about 50 a square but that's not the whole story. The trim, ridge and valleys cost a bit more. All told expect about 60-70 a sq. If you have a straight gable/no valleys maybe closer to 60. Labor should be cheaper but it isn't.

If it were my investment property I would weigh the pros of selling with a metal roof. Here in texas I get a 600 dollar deduct on my roof every year (personal house). I have been getting it for 25 years now so that means I have paid for that roof with actual money saved. The roof will last another 20 years easy. If it hails and doesn't leak they wont replace it. It has hailed on it 3 times already but you cant tell it from the ground. Still no leaks. If it leaks they will replace it. This to me is a good selling point but your state and my state are 2 different ecosystems. Ask around with other investors nearby and you will likely get a better answer for your situation.

3 Reply

Jay M.

Contractor · Fairhaven, MA · Member since 2018 · 167 posts · 159 votes

6y

Option #1 is a hack job / band-aid......... Going over an existing roof is a hack job....period, no discussion. Is it possible to get a quality job going over shingles? It's possible.........It's also possible for me to walk across a 5 lane freeway without looking and not get hit. Odds are about the same....

It also includes caulking around the pipe jacks not replacing (hack job x3).... The pipe jack boots usually fail before the roof so I'm sure they've already failed if the roof has. Since option 2 lists new ridge vent and option #1 does not it leads me to believe they'll go over ridge and not vent it? If you have soffit venting and only ridge vent at present not gable vents then you need to vent ridge.

Coil nails just mean they're using a roofing gun. The nails for the guns come in coils.

Both options list 3-tab shingles. Check you neighborhood for like houses. If they're all using the "architectural type" shingles rather than 3-tabs your house may stand out when going to sell as an obvious "cheaper" option that jumps out at you as soon as the buyer pulls up. I don't know about the area in AZ you're in but within a 100 miles of where I live in the northeast I couldn't even guess which decade was the one I last saw a new roof being replaced or new construction using 3-tabs...

If anyone doesn't agree with my personal opinion that going over a roof is a hack job I'll outline my argument if you would like.... I figured most would agree and I could save some typing..

12 Reply

Brenda Whittaker

OP

Investor · Cottonwood, AZ · Member since 2015 · 287 posts · 57 votes

6y

@Mike Reynolds NAH it's the same state, the house is in Texas!

1 Reply

Mike ReynoldsPro Member

construction · Nacogdoches, TX · Member since 2011 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes

6y

Originally posted by @Brenda Whittaker:

@Mike Reynolds NAH it's the same state, the house is in Texas!

What part of Texas? East, West, North or South? If South down around Galveston you will need [near] Miami Dade building code they adopted after Hurricane Ike.

While I agree that an overlay is not the best way it can be done and the manufacture will warranty it. They say so right in the warranty. Either metal or shingles. I have roofed from Texas to Florida at West Palm Beach and south of that, which is Miami Dade code, the most stringent in the country. I have even had to tear off as many as 7 layers of roof with the first being wood shakes and 2 being roll roofing. It was not fun. You do what you think you need to do. Many roofers will offer an overlay right off but it doesn't hurt to ask how much more for a tear off either.

As a contractor you do what the customer wants. I did a tear off and reroof on an old historical home with 3 tab. The job cost him 45k because it was 3 story and 12/12 pitch. I begged him to use Arch shingles for only 500 dollars more and he would not do it. It was only 42 squares. Instead, he cut me a check for 45k and gave me a thousand dollar tip. Go figure.

2 Reply

Mike ReynoldsPro Member

construction · Nacogdoches, TX · Member since 2011 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes

6y

@Jay M. An overlay is not a hack job. It is allowed by code and manufacture warranty. I have seen (and done) overlays that have lasted 25-30 years no problem. I have roofed one house twice in thirty years that was an overlay the first time and a tear off the next. Satisfied customer both times.

But you are entitled to your opinion.

1 Reply

Mike ReynoldsPro Member

construction · Nacogdoches, TX · Member since 2011 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes

6y

Originally posted by @Brenda Whittaker:

@Mike Reynolds NAH it's the same state, the house is in Texas!

I would also add that if they have to caulk around the roof jack, they didn't do the job right to start with. Caulk doesn't last as long as shingles do.

0 Reply

Jay M.

Contractor · Fairhaven, MA · Member since 2018 · 167 posts · 159 votes

6y

Originally posted by @Mike Reynolds:

@Jay M. An overlay is not a hack job. It is allowed by code and manufacture warranty. I have seen (and done) overlays that have lasted 25-30 years no problem. I have roofed one house twice in thirty years that was an overlay the first time and a tear off the next. Satisfied customer both times.

But you are entitled to your opinion.

If you're replacing a roof one would think that it failed correct? That means it's been leaking for awhile correct? If it's been leaking for awhile chance are there is roof decking that is rotted and compromised. Roofing over compromised decking is a hack job. Yes it's my opinion but it's pretty hard to argue that what I just said isn't true.

Here's a test. Ask a professional roofing company what is the average number of plywood sheets (or planks) replaced during a typical re-roof. When you get that answer that's my argument. And yes, as well as having been in the trades 37+ years I was a commercial roofing estimator for a couple years for a commercial / residential roofing company so I know the sheet count is usually over 1/2 dozen.

Are you wrong when you say a quality roof can't be installed over another one? No you're not. But...the chances are too small for a real craftsman to roll the dice. Now an investor that doesn't have a conscience and will sell in a couple years? Maybe it's good for them.

6 Reply

Matt Groth

Contractor · Grand Marais, MN · Member since 2016 · 249 posts · 417 votes

6y

Originally posted by @Jay M.:

Originally posted by @Mike Reynolds:

@Jay M. An overlay is not a hack job. It is allowed by code and manufacture warranty. I have seen (and done) overlays that have lasted 25-30 years no problem. I have roofed one house twice in thirty years that was an overlay the first time and a tear off the next. Satisfied customer both times.

But you are entitled to your opinion.

If you're replacing a roof one would think that it failed correct? That means it's been leaking for awhile correct? If it's been leaking for awhile chance are there is roof decking that is rotted and compromised. Roofing over compromised decking is a hack job. Yes it's my opinion but it's pretty hard to argue that what I just said isn't true.

Here's a test. Ask a professional roofing company what is the average number of plywood sheets (or planks) replaced during a typical re-roof. When you get that answer that's my argument. And yes, as well as having been in the trades 37+ years I was a commercial roofing estimator for a couple years for a commercial / residential roofing company so I know the sheet count is usually over 1/2 dozen.

Are you wrong when you say a quality roof can't be installed over another one? No you're not. But...the chances are too small for a real craftsman to roll the dice. Now an investor that doesn't have a conscience and will sell in a couple years? Maybe it's good for them.

I'm with Jay. I don't do overlay. 1 in my career, on a garage, because the owner insisted. There is nothing I hate in construction more than roofing, so the faster I get on to something else, the better, but I still tear off. I've seen too many issues. Always replace all boots. They dont last shingle life x2. I can't even buy 3 tabs any more in my area. Haven't put one on in 20 years. My advice, tear off, replace all boots, even for the electrical mast, and use architectural shingles.

6 Reply

Jay M.

Contractor · Fairhaven, MA · Member since 2018 · 167 posts · 159 votes

6y

@Matt Groth I'm with you. I have to frequently temper my outlook because a carpenter / builder thinks one way while an investor has to tone down the "quality" a bit.... Otherwise they'll have the best rentals bringing them in little or no money.

0 Reply

Matt Groth

Contractor · Grand Marais, MN · Member since 2016 · 249 posts · 417 votes

6y

Originally posted by @Jay M.:

@Matt Groth I'm with you. I have to frequently temper my outlook because a carpenter / builder thinks one way while an investor has to tone down the "quality" a bit.... Otherwise they'll have the best rentals bringing them in little or no money.

Just remind them that cost and price are not the same! I can't tell you the number of jobs where the high bidder (me) arrives at the job after the low bidder did something resembling work. Just replaced a roof this fall that was 5 years old. Turns out if you nail every shingle 2 inches high, they eventually fall off. Great materials, no workmanship. At least the 1st roof was cheaper, right?

2 Reply

Matt M.

Specialist · Easton, PA · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes

6y

@Brenda Whittaker

I am a contractor, but not a roofer. I can tell you from experience (my own house especially) that going over an old roof Is not the way to go. My house has architectural shingles Over the old shingles. My roof is probably 10 years old and we are already putting money aside to have it redone. Shingles are curling, etc. While I’m not an expert at all, I would attribute this to the shingles not being able to breathe. I’d also go with arch’s instead of 3 tab. By me, nobody uses 3 tab anymore, and code here is you must tear off (I think). If you are selling, it would be a strong selling point to be able to sell the house with a new architectural shingled roof done the correct way.

0 Reply

Mike ReynoldsPro Member

construction · Nacogdoches, TX · Member since 2011 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes

6y

Originally posted by @Jay M.:

Originally posted by @Mike Reynolds:

@Jay M. An overlay is not a hack job. It is allowed by code and manufacture warranty. I have seen (and done) overlays that have lasted 25-30 years no problem. I have roofed one house twice in thirty years that was an overlay the first time and a tear off the next. Satisfied customer both times.

But you are entitled to your opinion.

If you're replacing a roof one would think that it failed correct? That means it's been leaking for awhile correct? If it's been leaking for awhile chance are there is roof decking that is rotted and compromised. Roofing over compromised decking is a hack job. Yes it's my opinion but it's pretty hard to argue that what I just said isn't true.

Here's a test. Ask a professional roofing company what is the average number of plywood sheets (or planks) replaced during a typical re-roof. When you get that answer that's my argument. And yes, as well as having been in the trades 37+ years I was a commercial roofing estimator for a couple years for a commercial / residential roofing company so I know the sheet count is usually over 1/2 dozen.

Are you wrong when you say a quality roof can't be installed over another one? No you're not. But...the chances are too small for a real craftsman to roll the dice. Now an investor that doesn't have a conscience and will sell in a couple years? Maybe it's good for them.

You are assuming the roof is leaking when they ask for it to be replaced. Over 2/3 of the times I have roofed a house it had never leaked it was just time to replace because the granules were about gone. The key is replace it before it leaks. Most homeowners will do that. Yes, if a roof is leaking then the only way is to tear off and re-roof. Most people don't wait that long.

You were an estimator. I was the business owner. I did my own estimating and even nailed thousands of squares of shingles on myself. I have roofed for FEMA, DOE, Army Corp, commercial and residential. I roofed after Katrina, Wilma and Rita. All the same year at the same time. Had crews from Texas to Palm Beach. The reason so many companies replace is because of change orders. When FEMA/Insurance is footing the bill the change order book goes empty. I try an not overcharge the customer just because someone else was footing the bill. I have installed 1000's of shingle roofs and only 2 had call backs that were fixed immediately. Most roofing companies cant say that.

But maybe I should go ask a professional instead.

You assume too much when you only really have 2 years in the roofing trade. You only know what someone has told you. Like the old argument that roof staples were substandard. You cant find anyone that doesn't believe that today. That's fine with me because I hate to take them off. They are impossible to get out. I have seen houses in Florida that had the shingles with nails in them stripped and the staples stayed put. They were on the same roof. Seems the roofers used 2 guns and one used nails and one used staples. That doesn't mean staples are great and it doesn't mean nails are bad. Everything is not cut and dried. There are other ways to do it correctly. Certain conditions require tear off. Certain ones do not. Neither, if done correctly, means anyone is a hack. It means they are doing it correctly.

0 Reply

Mike ReynoldsPro Member

construction · Nacogdoches, TX · Member since 2011 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes

6y

Originally posted by @Matt M.:

@Brenda Whittaker

I am a contractor, but not a roofer. I can tell you from experience (my own house especially) that going over an old roof Is not the way to go. My house has architectural shingles Over the old shingles. My roof is probably 10 years old and we are already putting money aside to have it redone. Shingles are curling, etc. While I’m not an expert at all, I would attribute this to the shingles not being able to breathe. I’d also go with arch’s instead of 3 tab. By me, nobody uses 3 tab anymore, and code here is you must tear off (I think). If you are selling, it would be a strong selling point to be able to sell the house with a new architectural shingled roof done the correct way.

Shingle curling is usually bad ventilation in the attic or not installed properly. Could also be bad shingles where the tabs glue down.

0 Reply

Shawn Coverdell

Investor · Clatskanie, OR · Member since 2014 · 212 posts · 233 votes

6y

Don't look too far off. Keep in mind that you will be paying the general contractor about 2K for 1 days work. He will pay his employees a few hundred bucks and the rest will go to materials. His profits will be between 1,500 and 2K.

If you hire your own roofers and spend the day babysitting them, SUPER easy this time of year. That 2K savings can go towards your next deal.

No, you do not need a license, just do it. I have a license and not once has anyone ever asked me for it.

Shawn Coverdell

Homes in the Hood

1 Reply

Bradley Bissett

Lender · Brown City, MI · Member since 2015 · 38 posts · 28 votes

6y

@Brenda Whittaker hi. :) shingles over shingles don’t last as long and you lose the “warranty”(I’ve never heard of the warranty covering anyone tho, ever)smh. Anyway, if u plan to sell in 2 years I can understand why you want to reduce costs but keep in mind your reputation should they not hold up over time.

Now, steel, in MI is very similar in cost to shingles. If the singles are currently in decent shape (not curling) You can fur out w 2x4s and put steel on top, however, temps very drastically from MI to AZ so u need to make sure the home breaths adequately. Overall the quotes look good and fair priced. Do it right and you’ll be able to sell the home and improvements with even more confidence than ever in a couple of years. Good luck.

0 Reply

John Pierce

Rental Property Investor · Richmond, VA · Member since 2014 · 100 posts · 50 votes

6y

I would strongly recommend that you do a complete tear-off, especially if you are telling the existing roof because it is leaking. Doing a complete tear-off lets the contractor address issues with damaged/rotten roof decking.

I would also recommend upgrading from a 3-tab to an architectural shingle. They are more attractive, higher quality, and not much more expensive.

Your quotes don't address things like flashing, I've and water shield (might not be required in Texas), or a ridge-vent.

0 Reply

Erik B.

Rental Property Investor · Amityville, NY · Member since 2018 · 351 posts · 441 votes

6y

No one is concerned with 1-1/4 nails on a overlay???????

Theres already lots of info here so I'll keep it short.

If the roof looks great now why replace? FHA will only say something if roof shows defects or needed repairs.

If your selling in 2 years go with overlay BUT make sure you get new pipe boots and flashing around chimneys etc.

The fact that they are offering 3 tab raises a red flag to me. (PLUS 3 tab in my area is now more money then architectual)

They were very vague on where ice and water should be. I'dook into this and ask them for more clarity

2 Reply

Brenda Whittaker

OP

Investor · Cottonwood, AZ · Member since 2015 · 287 posts · 57 votes

6y

@Jay M. Jay, thank you so much for the education, I looked up all those terms and learned a lot. Fascinating! I never considered the venting - the house is not in AZ it's in TX, built 1952 but the roof had to have been replaced at some point, I just dont know when, looks about 20 years old rough guess and I do not know what type of venting it currently has. My own personal residence is in AZ and I had a new roof put on 15 years ago - it is an overlay! I have not had a single problem, but then again we do not get much weather. There is no ridge vent, and I do not have enclosed soffits but I do have gable vents, on my own house just for discussion. The TX house I rarely see so I have to do some research on what it has but I know its 3 tab and since it's a $65 - $85K low end house the 3 tab is probably sufficient as far as buyers. I see 3 tabs go up around my own area a lot. I would like to sell in 2 years tentatively and am also wondering if FHA has any roof regulations besides age. I appreciate the info, you have taught me a lot already. Very tough job finding the right roofer. Any opinion on if my roofer should be an actual roofing company or can a guy that does general construction such as who that bid came from, suffice. ? City says they do not require a license because they don't regulate roofs.

1 Reply

Brenda Whittaker

OP

Investor · Cottonwood, AZ · Member since 2015 · 287 posts · 57 votes

6y

@Erik B. Thank you! What size should nails be on an overlay? FHA I heard does require a newer roof, an age requirement but no further details that I know of. The roof is not failing or defective but just looks tired and the shingles don't extend past the roof edge so I have had a lot of soffit repair to contend with. Roof was not new when I bought the house 10 years ago so it's definitely aged and I'd like to get it taken care of now because I know FHA for a new buyer will be looking at roof age. Curious why 3 tab raises a red flag? Most roofs are 3 tab, aren't they? Just wondering why no one likes them anymore, they have been doing the job for decades so why is 3 tab now suddenly a bad thing, just curious. Does the architectural type do a better job or last longer or something? What is the benefit of arch type, other than appearance? Thank you!!

0 Reply

Brenda Whittaker

OP

Investor · Cottonwood, AZ · Member since 2015 · 287 posts · 57 votes

6y

@John Pierce Thank you so much, you also recommend arch type instead of 3 tab, interesting. The roof is not leaking. It is fine, just tired and old looking, the 3 tab that;s up there has done a great job so I'm wondering why everyone recommends arch type. Great point about them being able to address issues that may exist under the old roof. I am working on the roof because I am renovating it to either sell now or in 2 years, I figure with the right tenant 2 years wont yield enough wear and tear to justify major rehab but I can use the 24 months of income to help with rehab costs. The former tenant just left. It needs cosmetics now but I plan to spend this next 2 years doing what it takes to get FHA compliant and fix up enough to get maximum value for this low end Mayberry town property. I have just learned about ridge vents so I will definitely address that with whoever I hire, I think there is soffit and gable vents, if that's the case does it still need a ridge vent or no? Thank you !!

0 Reply

Brenda Whittaker

OP

Investor · Cottonwood, AZ · Member since 2015 · 287 posts · 57 votes

6y

@Mike Reynolds 7 layers!! That sounds crazy, I am surprised any roofer would be willing to go over any more than one layer. Most I talked to say you can only do one lay over and most (well I have only spoke to 3 or 4) seem reluctant to do overlays, and with overlays the workmanship guarantee is shorter. It is north Texas near Sherman, close to the Oklahoma border. Rains a LOT there, mild winters, major storms, but the old 3 tab is holding up, no leaks that I know of. It's just old. Any reason to go with arch type instead of 3 tab besides looks? Its a lower end home, functionality would be more important than appearance.

1 Reply

Brenda Whittaker

OP

Investor · Cottonwood, AZ · Member since 2015 · 287 posts · 57 votes

6y

Thanks everyone, enormous help!! Now what comes to mind is payment - I dread anyone asking for any up front money to cover material, I assume this is common with a general contractor or just a guy that does roofing, but maybe not with a larger roofing company? What can I expect as far as payment process for the best of integral roofers? And so the guy who gave me the above quote, I should ask him if he's a contractor or just a guy that does roofing, what are his payment requirements, what would it cost for arch type instead of 3 tab, and ask about caulking, pipe and jack replacements, and venting. Right?

0 Reply

Erik B.

Rental Property Investor · Amityville, NY · Member since 2018 · 351 posts · 441 votes

6y

Originally posted by @Brenda Whittaker:

@Erik B. Thank you! What size should nails be on an overlay? FHA I heard does require a newer roof, an age requirement but no further details that I know of. The roof is not failing or defective but just looks tired and the shingles don't extend past the roof edge so I have had a lot of soffit repair to contend with. Roof was not new when I bought the house 10 years ago so it's definitely aged and I'd like to get it taken care of now because I know FHA for a new buyer will be looking at roof age. Curious why 3 tab raises a red flag? Most roofs are 3 tab, aren't they? Just wondering why no one likes them anymore, they have been doing the job for decades so why is 3 tab now suddenly a bad thing, just curious. Does the architectural type do a better job or last longer or something? What is the benefit of arch type, other than appearance? Thank you!!

3 tab is very uncommon (at least in the northeast). It did its job decades ago but so did flip phones.

Architectural shingles look a million times better.

Here the cost to source 3 tab is more than architectual.

Nails should be long enough to penetrate the sheathing (unless in exposed finished areas)

You have to account for sheathing 5/8"-3/4"

Roofing 1/4" per layer minimum

Plus any underlayment (ice and water + starter shingle)

I would most likely use 1-3/4" nail for 2nd layer architectural.

Most roofs old or new are vented somehow. Old ones will either have gable vents or if it's a hip roof will have vents in the actual roof.

Newer construction uses soffit vents along with a ridge vent. This helps air circulate naturally by letting the cooler air enter at the soffit and the warmer air exits at the ridge (peak).

Having ridge vent installed is usually a very minimal cost increase. Some roofers actually include it. FYI in theory you should do away with gable vents when installing a ridge vent. Also need to clear any insulation away from the soffit so air can flow accordingly

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