Cost of architect and engineer for 100 lot subdivision?

New York, NY · Member since 2013 · 22 posts · 1 vote

We were quoted a cost of roughly 300k for a particular company to do the architectural and engineering work on a 100 lot 50 acre subdivision. I am still new to all of this but that seems extremely high, considering they are not actually doing the digging and constructing (that is being done by an excacation company). They are performing the plans, town approvals, specs, etc...Is it normal to get a quote that high? thanks.

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Joel OwensBusiness Member

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Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes

13y

Get multiple quotes. The key is if they are locally the ones who get things pushed through fast with the town etc.

If you try to bring in an outsider they will hit brick walls and it could cost you time in the process.

Call around. On a commercial deal recently quotes were all the way up to 4,000 for a full ALTA survey. We found one for 1,650 that was local and good. Some companies are backed up with work and can charge top tier rates. You want someone good but where you can still land a great price for the work performed. You do not want to get the cheapest if the quality and connections are not there.

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Joel OwensBusiness Member
Moderator
Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
13y
Get multiple quotes. The key is if they are locally the ones who get things pushed through fast with the town etc.

If you try to bring in an outsider they will hit brick walls and it could cost you time in the process.

Call around. On a commercial deal recently quotes were all the way up to 4,000 for a full ALTA survey. We found one for 1,650 that was local and good. Some companies are backed up with work and can charge top tier rates. You want someone good but where you can still land a great price for the work performed. You do not want to get the cheapest if the quality and connections are not there.
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Steve K
Investor · Orlando, FL · Member since 2012 · 431 posts · 106 votes
13y
That's insanely high. You need to piece meal this together to get the best deal. Find a draftsman who is capable of laying out the design work, get a civil engineer to handle the layout and his items, then hire at attorney to work through town approvals, etc.

I can't recall what it cost last time I did this, but i'm thinking around $30k ( not including sitework ) or so for a 32 lot subdivision.

This could simply be the difference between Florida and New York, but i'd certainly shop around.
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Chad Ballard
Civil Engineer · Orange County, CA · Member since 2012 · 189 posts · 45 votes
13y
I would say that is a little high but it depends on the area that you are in. The engineer has to prepare reports on erosion control, hydrology, water quality calculations and covenants, water, sewer, storm drain, final maps, etc. the list goes on and on. It also depends on the relationships built with the city and counties as well as the engineer's experience but it is more than what most people expect.

The best way to tell is to get multiple quotes and be sure that the firm is competitive but engineering is not a cost you want to pick the lowest bidder on. Be sure to ask the firm for some references on recent projects and check them out.
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Jean Paul Valley
OP
New York, NY · Member since 2013 · 22 posts · 1 vote
13y
It's a small town and there are not to many civil engineers and large project architects. This co. Does both. They are essentially doing everything for the project outside of digging and building. Not sure there's enough other engineers/architects in the town to piecemeal it out.
300k just seems like a lot of money to pay for planning, supervising and certifying. I'm sure it will be another couple hundred grand for excavation and contracting team.
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Terry Portier
Engineer · Wichita, KS · Member since 2012 · 396 posts · 36 votes
13y
Average 2012 CE salary is $38/hr, that is 7,985 man hrs, 4 man years. I'd say that is CRAZY!

Give Society Of Civil Engineers a call out by you for guidance, and see if there is a local Board of Tech Professionals that can tell you what needs an architect or a draftsman. The software these days makes it quick and easy.

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Chad Ballard
Civil Engineer · Orange County, CA · Member since 2012 · 189 posts · 45 votes
13y
$38/hr doesn't count for much of the cost of running an engineering business. You are missing out on marketing, office space, equipment, admin staff, city and county fees, employee benefits, software, taxes, insurance, etc. the list is quite long. You cannot jump lump everything into the engineer's salary and expect that to be the total cost for the client. There is a lot that goes into the cost and it can vary greatly from one city to the next.

That said, $300k for 100 losts or $30k a lot does seems high.
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Steve K
Investor · Orlando, FL · Member since 2012 · 431 posts · 106 votes
13y
Nothing wrong with using firms that aren't local. You don't need an actual project architect for a small boutique subdivision. You should personally oversee all of the approval process items with the city / county. It will make you want to tear your hair out, but it's a good learning experience.
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Terry Portier
Engineer · Wichita, KS · Member since 2012 · 396 posts · 36 votes
13y
Originally posted by Chad Ballard:
$38/hr doesn't count for much of the cost of running an engineering business. You are missing out on marketing, office space, equipment, admin staff, city and county fees, employee benefits, software, taxes, insurance, etc. the list is quite long. You cannot jump lump everything into the engineer's salary and expect that to be the total cost for the client. There is a lot that goes into the cost and it can vary greatly from one city to the next.
That said, $300k for 100 losts or $30k a lot does seems high.

I've been an Engineer for over 30 years, keep looking!

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Wayne Brooks
Real Estate Professional · West Palm Beach, FL · Member since 2012 · 23k+ posts · 13k+ votes
13y
Chad, $3k per lot, not $30k.
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Chad Ballard
Civil Engineer · Orange County, CA · Member since 2012 · 189 posts · 45 votes
13y
Terry Portier, I agree with Terry it is too high and Wayne Brooks thanks for catching the typo.
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Jean Paul Valley
OP
New York, NY · Member since 2013 · 22 posts · 1 vote
13y
A quick look at the numbers and I think I know where the discrepancy is. In order to get a 300k charge for the lots (30k per lot) the construction/infrastructure costs must be included; which means that the quote from the CE included everything.

My question now, is that normal? is it standard for a civil engineer/architect to include the cost of construction in their quote? that seems odd to me but like I said I am new to this.
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Jon Klaus
Developer · Garland, TX · Member since 2008 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
13y
It's $3k per lot. In some cities this is probably competitive. They are not just designing the sub-division, but getting you through a mountain of bureaucracy and red tape. They are also accepting liability for what they stamp and sign. Keep shopping though, not only might you save money, you'll learn something from every firm you talk with.
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Wayne Brooks
Real Estate Professional · West Palm Beach, FL · Member since 2012 · 23k+ posts · 13k+ votes
13y
Jean Paul Valley Their fee is $3,000 per lot, not $30,000, and does not include infrastructure. If you didn't already realize that, and it's your development, you're certainly not paying attention, and need to get some experienced help. Either that, or this is just a pretend scenario.
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Bill Gulley
Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
13y
Did you have any preliminary designs? Much of the overall layout may be common sence depending on topography.

If that includes survey/plat, street, curbs, gutters, drainage, water retention, electrical, sewer lines, grading requirements as well as design, getting approvals, attending and running neighborhood meetings if required, everything from start of conception to buildable lots, that may be in line.....we did 124, initially and that was reduced by a few and all said and done was about 2,200 I believe, that was some years ago as well.

As others have said, get bids, make sure you're comparing apples to apples, with an outline of the scope of work being the same. :)
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Kyle Zaylor
Developer · Portland, OR · Member since 2012 · 55 posts · 40 votes
13y
Absolutely get other quotes. And, if you can, see what quotes look like for architects and engineers individually. Firms that include the services together can take advantage of economies of scale and offer more competitive fees, yet you can't be certain on that without knowing what the current market is like. Each firm is different in their designs, planning expertise, and services offered. A/E is always a considerable expense in any development budget. A $300k line item is nothing to sneeze at. You'll want to know exactly how your money is spent for the services given, and that it's a useful/valuable deployment of your capital.

Another option to consider: pay an outside A/E firm a small, nominal fee to review the quotes. Ideally this firm is well outside the specific market and won't be competing directly for similar work. They'd just be a 3rd party advisor. They should be able to spell out exactly what you are getting for your money. It'll cost you upfront, but could save plenty later on in negotiations, mental stress, and project execution.
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Jean Paul Valley
OP
New York, NY · Member since 2013 · 22 posts · 1 vote
13y
Thanks for all of the replies, really helpful. No, its not my project I am just reviewing some old notes in the office for my boss and came across the 300k quote. Initially, that seemed like an outrageous amount to pay for CE. However, as others mentioned that amounts to 3k per lot which seems more in line with their work.

So, I guess my question now, is 3k per lot a "normal" figure?
Also, what would be the ballpark per lot for excavation and construction bids?
Thanks to all for your help.
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Dion DePaoliPro Member
Real Estate Broker · Northwest Indiana, IN · Member since 2011 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
13y
I would say $3k doesn't sound too far off, adverse to what others are saying. Engineering firms are fly by night type of companies and they tend to know their market. As Joel pointed out, if they are crammed with work, their bid will go up. So getting quotes is smart.

It is possible to break it into pieces, if you know and understand what you are doing. There are companies who specialize in getting things through the proper departments which can be hired independent of the work.

The elephant in the room is, we know it is 100 lot subdivision, however we don't know much about the land and its features nor it's location and the adjacent land features. Having any wetland or sometimes dealing with new water engineering can be costly. Additionally, ingress and egress engineering can also add costs based on the access roads to the property. You mention this is an old quote, how old, that could affect the price as well. All that or just as simple, that is their going rate for your area. Looking at the number and speculating why it has the price tag it does is an exercise in futility without a better understanding of the actual project.

As for the cost of excavation, don't take this the wrong way, but I think you need to spend sometime and learn the process of what you are about to go through. Again, asking a open question with no concept for the reader to understand what is entailed on the lot can have large affects on pricing. Does the lot need to be cleared? You will have to cut the timber down and ground out the stumps. That will add charges. Will the lots tie into a city water system with sanitation, sewer and potable water or is this septic and well?

Why did we just go from lot design to lot excavation, which is usually further down the list after you cost out the elevation, road and utility excavations. As a developer, are you going to develop the lots or sell them off and the let either the home owner or builder hook up to the main utilities and dig the foundations?

What "construction bid" do you mean? (Home construction?) All of this is construction. Again, I say spend some time and get a better understanding of the process from start to finish when doing development and final build out work.

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Wayne Brooks
Real Estate Professional · West Palm Beach, FL · Member since 2012 · 23k+ posts · 13k+ votes
13y
Yep, as Dion DePaoli said there is now way to make such a broad estimate for your particular site. Here, just imported fill for some house sites is $10,000 just for the building pad. Are the lots level, rock excavation/blasting required, road construction, strom sewer, water, sanitary sewer, electrcial, local impact fees, etc.
0 Reply
Chad Ballard
Civil Engineer · Orange County, CA · Member since 2012 · 189 posts · 45 votes
13y
Originally posted by Jean Paul Valley:
So, I guess my question now, is 3k per lot a "normal" figure?

There really isn't a normal figure since it will vary with the size of the project. A single lot can be much more than the $3k per lot but working with multiple lots right next to each other allows the engineer to lower the price per lot.

Get a few quotes even if they are not in your immediate area for the work if they are interested in the work then they will give you a quote if not then they will tell you up front. Be sure to compare apples to apples. It is really hard to have a general rule of thumb when it comes to engineering because there are so many variables as mentioned by others on this thread.

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Karen MargraveBusiness Member
Moderator
Realtor, General Contractor, and Developer · Redding, CA · Member since 2009 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
13y
Jean Paul Valley I can't say what you should be paying, because in areas such as New York, like California, the prices can vary widely, but honestly, that doesn't seem that high. However; it depends on exactly what is being done. Civil, structural, geological, plans ready to submit, etc.? The devil is in the details.

Remember time is money, and you want someone that can get it done, get it done right, and on time. As for not needing an architect, once again, that is a local issue. Some areas require architects to draw house plans, others allow draftsmen.

A 100 lot subdivision on 50 acres is a HUGE undertaking for a novice developer. My question is, what is your experience?

Layout on a project of the size you are doing can make or break your project. It's the single most important thing that has to be done, so you have to get it right.
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Paul Minor
Architect · Denver, CO · Member since 2013 · 5 posts · 7 votes
13y
I may be late to the party, as I'm a new member, but for what it's worth:

Usually a 100-home development consists of 10-15 actual different floor plans. You then develop a "master plan submittal" set, which typically includes all floor plans + options, exterior elevations + options, and all supplemental plans (details, electrical, etc.).

You then develop "site-specific" plan submittals that represent each specific site condition. This submittal usually consists of a site plan, foundation plan, and then you select the architectural/structural set that completes the submittal set for the specific site on which you are going to build (i.e. walkout basement, garden level, hip vs. gable, etc.).

It's up to the local jurisdiction as to exactly how they want these plans + options laid out on sheets and submitted, but the theory is the same everywhere across the country.

To say that each plan costs $3,000 could be an average of each home. We would typically design the first 10-15 plans at full fee, then add in a "repeat" cost to complete each "site-specific" plan, which is at a much lower cost. It's a very efficient method.
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Tom Paul
Architect · Chardon, OH · Member since 2009 · 7 posts · 4 votes
12y
That is actually a really good price for A/E fees. The $300,000 is not for civil ro engineering alone. If you are doing 100 homes each one of those is essentially a separate project in the cities mind. Each one needs to be sent in individually. If you are doing spec homes and only have a couple of designs that is different. It will cost about $1 to $2 sf for architectural to go from programming/design to plan review construction documents. There are building codes, zoning codes, etc. to follow. Hiring a drafts person won't guarantee this is all getting done. An attorney running thru the city will cost way more than the architect for those duties which are included. The $300,000 brakes down to $3,000 per house for architectural and engineering - that is a great price.
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Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
12y
@Karen Margrave

in our market you would only bring an architect in if you were doing a planned unit development and the house's needed to be part of the overall approval process.

If you were just building 100 lots you would only need Civil, Geo , land planning and the civil can usually do the land planning if its a vanilla subdivision. then once you had the lots you would then buy the plans as is being stated above.. need a site plan for each individual lot and you can have half a dozen flip flop garages and different looks in the front.

100 lot sub in our market is a 6 to 12 million dollar deal to get it to shovel ready. Karens Market it is 20 to 30 million...

some of my fondest deals though have been getting pre plats approved and flipping them to national builders... nice pay days on those.
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Karen MargraveBusiness Member
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Realtor, General Contractor, and Developer · Redding, CA · Member since 2009 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
12y
I couldn't imagine what that would cost in southern California. In northern California (the "real" northern California not the bay area) we have developed subdivisions, and the approval process involved submitting the specific plan to be built on each lot.
The point is, every area of the country, each city, county, etc. has their criteria that has to be met. Finding someone that KNOWS your area will save you time, money and a lot of headaches! Then, once you have located a few, get bids, and make sure you are comparing apples to apples.
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J. MartinPro Member
Rental Property Investor · Oakland, CA · Member since 2011 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
12y
I second what @Joel Owens says about picking locals who know the planning/approval process (or possibly related to people in the approval process lol) to get that part of the project done - how difficult this is can vary greatly from area to area..
As @Jon Klaus put it, "A mountain of bureaucracy and red tape." For $3k/lot.. How good are they? Even if they are the best, you may want to get some more quotes as @Kyle Zaylor suggested, pay an independent outsider to review them. If nothing else, you may be able to take the information back to the original bidder, if you still want them, and show them why $1.XK or $2.xK per lot is more reasonable than $3.0K based on what is out there..
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