I was wrong. property managers are NOT worth it....
Ann Arbor, MI · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 997 votes
I was wrong. property managers are NOT worth it....
Most Popular Reply
Kenneth GarrettPro Member
Investor · Florida Panhandle/Illinois · Member since 2016 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votesI self manage all my properties and have done so for the past 10 years. I had a bought a property a few years ago that had a pm in place. They were awful and fired them 6 months in. I won’t say all managers are bad, but I don’t think self managing takes that much time. No one will manage my property as well as me, it’s mine.
18 Replies
- 3yMelanie ThomasBusiness MemberReal Estate Broker · San Antonio · Member since 2022 · 1k+ posts · 489 votes
Yikes, I am sorry you had a terrible experience. Not all PMC's are the same, I promise. Good luck!
RentWerx Property Management4.73295 Reviews - Realtor · Hanover Twp, PA · Member since 2018 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes3y
@Patrick Britton, sounds like you THINK PM's aren't worth it but aren't quite sure yet.
I suspect after you do it yourself for a while you'll be able to answer that question better.
- 3yKenneth GarrettPro MemberInvestor · Florida Panhandle/Illinois · Member since 2016 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes
I self manage all my properties and have done so for the past 10 years. I had a bought a property a few years ago that had a pm in place. They were awful and fired them 6 months in. I won’t say all managers are bad, but I don’t think self managing takes that much time. No one will manage my property as well as me, it’s mine.
- Ann Arbor, MI · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 997 votes3y
well, i now believe that yes, ALL managers are bad. no exceptions. it's just a matter of time before their true self is revealed. some can hide it for longer than others.
- Ann Arbor, MI · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 997 votes3y
@Kevin Sobilo no, i am absolutely certain they are not worth it. At least for someone like me, who owns fewer than 10 rentals. the cost, thievery, garbage service....nah.. not worth the stress.
- 3yJon KellyPro MemberInvestor · Bethlehem, PA · Member since 2016 · 929 posts · 951 votes
@Patrick Britton be honest, did you choose the cheapest property management company you could find?
That's what I did when I first started and it was a terrible experience. I realized you need to pay for quality property management. I've not transferred most of my units to a very strong property management company and it was the best decision I made. I have 60 residential units and 13 storage units, so the time to manage isn't worth it to me.
- 3yTheresa HarrisPro MemberMember since 2019 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
No one will care more about your property than you will and no one will operate it that same as you. The PM isn't there to fight for the owner, but to make sure the rental is operating. At the end of the day, you have good PMs and bad ones.
- Investor · Austin, TX · Member since 2021 · 9k+ posts · 5k+ votes3y
Do some research, get with a leasing agent and ask who tenants hate applying for the most. That's who I would go with, may take longer to rent but you're in good hands
- 3yDrew SygitBusiness MemberProperty Manager · Royal Oak, MI · Member since 2012 · 12k+ posts · 9k+ votes
We agree, "No one will care about your properties as well as the owner", but disagree with, "No one will manage them as well as the owner".
Why? We've taken over many properties from DIY landlords that were unorganized, violating laws, letting tenants get too far behind, etc.
So, using your logic, you could also then say that all DIY landlords are incompetent.
There are good & bad PMC's and DIY landlords.
We're far from perfect, but cringe when we hear the names of some of our local "competitors"! We know they're terrible, but somehow they keep getting clients.
We also cringe when owners contact us and all they ask us about is our pricing - nothing about our SOP's, software, online portals, etc.
Logical Property Management4.9450 Reviews - Huntsville, AL · Member since 2018 · 577 posts · 864 votes3y
Quote from @Patrick Britton:
well, i now believe that yes, ALL managers are bad. no exceptions. it's just a matter of time before their true self is revealed. some can hide it for longer than others.
There are very few absolutes in life. The statement that "all" managers are bad is simply not true. You are absolutely entitled to your opinion, and I hope your REI goes better under your own property management.
For me, with my W2 job, I simply couldn't have scaled my REI without property management. I also have no desire to keep up with all federal and state laws in regards to rentals, nor get called at 2 am that the toilet is overflowing. Are the property managers I have perfect? Of course not (and neither am I). But they do a really solid job overall, and are a necessary part of my "team" for the growth and stability of my REI.
- Ann Arbor, MI · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 997 votes3y
Yes, there are very few absolutes. And property managers failing at some point is one of them. My property manager was placed on a pedestal by me, incorrectly, and I am trying to warn all others not to repeat that same mistake because I was one of those promoting scaling ASAP. Scaling quickly has many unexpected repercussions that will strain every aspect of the endeavor.
- 3moRachid AbadliBusiness MemberInvestor · Sacramento, CA · Member since 2024 · 125 posts · 33 votes
This matches my experience exactly. I ran the numbers on what my PM was actually costing me across a small portfolio in Sacramento — it wasn't just the 8% management fee. It was the lease renewal fee, the maintenance markup, the vacancy fee, and the "trip charge" for inspections. All-in, it was closer to 14–15% of gross rent.
The thing nobody tells you is that the hardest part of self-managing isn't the work — it's building the systems so the work doesn't eat your life. Rent collection, maintenance tracking, compliance deadlines, move-in/move-out documentation. Once those systems exist, each unit adds maybe 1–2 hours per month.
In California specifically, compliance is the piece that scares people back to PMs. AB 1482 rent caps, just-cause eviction rules, AB 2801 security deposit changes — it's a lot. But a PM doesn't magically know this stuff better than you. I've caught more compliance gaps from PMs than I ever made on my own.
For anyone on the fence: start with one property. Build your systems. The PM savings alone will convince you.
LeaseBase.ai - 3moGarrett CrosbyPro MemberReal Estate Agent · Los Angeles, United States · Member since 2021 · 392 posts · 162 votes
The frustration here is real and I've felt it too. I have three rentals in Fayetteville, NC that I manage from LA — so I can't just drive by and check things myself. I've cycled through a couple of property managers out there and the experience has been mixed.
Here's what I've learned: the mistake most people make (myself included initially) is hiring the PM and then stepping back completely. A bad PM gets worse the less you're involved because they know you're not watching. The ones who actually perform are the ones where you stay present — monthly check-ins, reviewing reports, asking specific questions about vacancy, maintenance tickets, tenant communication.
The fee isn't what kills you. It's the hidden costs: the maintenance markups, the lease renewal fees, the vacancy drag when they're slow to list. I started requiring itemized invoices on every repair over $150 and the inflated charges basically stopped overnight.
For smaller portfolios under 5-6 units, I think the calculus is legitimately close. If you have the time and systems, self-managing is doable. But for out-of-state investing it becomes almost impossible to do well without boots on the ground — either a PM or a very trusted local contact who can actually respond when something goes wrong.
The better question isn't PM vs. no PM. It's whether you found a good one and whether you're managing them properly.
- Honolulu, HI · Member since 2008 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes3mo
If "you" (not you personally, I am speaking generally) are "managing" the Manager, then it is likely you are a large part of the problem.
You have failed to sufficiently investigate the PM company, processes, existing properties under their management, or the individuals that you would be communicating with primarily. That would typically be a specific PM overseeing your account (and numerous others), and the accounting department person that would be overseeing your financial transactions.
Competent PM's that manage scores, or hundreds, of units, for multiple Owners and Ownership Entities will usually have good systems, processes, and procedures in place. While there is a certain amount of flexibility in various aspects of the management relationship, most of those should be sorted out prior to signing a management agreement.
Do you know local LL/Tenant laws, Security Deposit, First Month collection restrictions and specified timelines? Are you familiar with Fair Housing, Fair Credit Reporting Act, Adverse Action Letters, Military Servicemembers Civil Relief Act, and specific local laws that affect your rental operations?
You should know how and when they normally collect rents, and how long it takes for them to generate the monthly reports for all of their Clients. Sorry, you are not special. They handle much of this in "batches" and will not disrupt their entire system to get your NET rental paid a day earlier.
You should have already reviewed and discussed their standard Rental Agreement and terms, adding and "Special" terms unique to your property or demands...within the law. That includes how much and how to handle Security Deposits; first month rent; grace periods and late fees; and the estimated cost and time frame for evictions in your locale. That of course leads to inquiring about the screening process, what key elements are they evaluating, and how do they finalize an approval/denial decision. What is their rate of evictions? Full SD refunds? Late payments? How do they handle rule or rental agreement terms violations? Will you be notified of any violations?
How do they handle service calls, repairs, and vacant rental preps? What are common costs for R&R a water heater, or toilet, or refrigerator? A 1 bedroom paint out, walls and trim only, same color? What time frames are average for these tasks? Are they using in-house maintenance staff, or third party vendors? Licensed and insured, or handyperson types with usually no insurance or license? Licensed PM's are generally required to follow "all applicable laws" which means licensed contractors for all jobs requiring licensed workers.
Where and how are they marketing rentals? What do their current ads actually look like? What is their showing process? application process? Who must apply? costs for you/Tenant? How quickly?
Do they review the rental agreement with tenant, or how do they communicate important terms? What other documentation do they provide to tenants? House rules; LBP notices; Mold information; move out cleaning requirements; parking rules; restrictions on length of time visitors can stay? What else is important to you, about your property?
What does their move in process look like? What documentation do they provide; how is it completed, and by whom?
How do tenants communicate routine requests or info; urgent/emergent issues; overnight issues?
Have you informed the PM of unique characteristics or odd locations of shut offs or other random issues concerning the property?
Have you reviewed sample monthly and year end reports that will be provided? do you understand them? Do they meet your tax reporting needs? do you need or desire additional reports that may be available with their accounting package?
Ask your questions, gather your info, prior to ever signing an agreement. And be sure you have actually read and understand the entire agreement. Demand a 30 day right to terminate with no penalty after the first year. Establish a reasonable spend limit for routine service calls. I always recommend equal to one month rent, with PM keeping that amount in reserve in case of mid month problems. At vacancy, walk the property with the PM or request a full series of pics to evaluate and discuss proposed repairs, upgrades, and maintenance. Of course you can do the work cheaper, but you don't have overhead, licensing, or knowledge to do work that will last for years. Leave it to the pros, and go relax.
Never assume all PM's are created equal. Just like Doctors and Auto Mechanics, there are good ones, and there are bad ones. Your job is to find one that meets your needs. As always, Prevention is much less costly than remediation.
- 3moJay HinrichsBusiness MemberReal Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
Quote from @Richard F.:
If "you" (not you personally, I am speaking generally) are "managing" the Manager, then it is likely you are a large part of the problem.
You have failed to sufficiently investigate the PM company, processes, existing properties under their management, or the individuals that you would be communicating with primarily. That would typically be a specific PM overseeing your account (and numerous others), and the accounting department person that would be overseeing your financial transactions.
Competent PM's that manage scores, or hundreds, of units, for multiple Owners and Ownership Entities will usually have good systems, processes, and procedures in place. While there is a certain amount of flexibility in various aspects of the management relationship, most of those should be sorted out prior to signing a management agreement.
Do you know local LL/Tenant laws, Security Deposit, First Month collection restrictions and specified timelines? Are you familiar with Fair Housing, Fair Credit Reporting Act, Adverse Action Letters, Military Servicemembers Civil Relief Act, and specific local laws that affect your rental operations?
You should know how and when they normally collect rents, and how long it takes for them to generate the monthly reports for all of their Clients. Sorry, you are not special. They handle much of this in "batches" and will not disrupt their entire system to get your NET rental paid a day earlier.
You should have already reviewed and discussed their standard Rental Agreement and terms, adding and "Special" terms unique to your property or demands...within the law. That includes how much and how to handle Security Deposits; first month rent; grace periods and late fees; and the estimated cost and time frame for evictions in your locale. That of course leads to inquiring about the screening process, what key elements are they evaluating, and how do they finalize an approval/denial decision. What is their rate of evictions? Full SD refunds? Late payments? How do they handle rule or rental agreement terms violations? Will you be notified of any violations?
How do they handle service calls, repairs, and vacant rental preps? What are common costs for R&R a water heater, or toilet, or refrigerator? A 1 bedroom paint out, walls and trim only, same color? What time frames are average for these tasks? Are they using in-house maintenance staff, or third party vendors? Licensed and insured, or handyperson types with usually no insurance or license? Licensed PM's are generally required to follow "all applicable laws" which means licensed contractors for all jobs requiring licensed workers.
Where and how are they marketing rentals? What do their current ads actually look like? What is their showing process? application process? Who must apply? costs for you/Tenant? How quickly?
Do they review the rental agreement with tenant, or how do they communicate important terms? What other documentation do they provide to tenants? House rules; LBP notices; Mold information; move out cleaning requirements; parking rules; restrictions on length of time visitors can stay? What else is important to you, about your property?
What does their move in process look like? What documentation do they provide; how is it completed, and by whom?
How do tenants communicate routine requests or info; urgent/emergent issues; overnight issues?
Have you informed the PM of unique characteristics or odd locations of shut offs or other random issues concerning the property?
Have you reviewed sample monthly and year end reports that will be provided? do you understand them? Do they meet your tax reporting needs? do you need or desire additional reports that may be available with their accounting package?
Ask your questions, gather your info, prior to ever signing an agreement. And be sure you have actually read and understand the entire agreement. Demand a 30 day right to terminate with no penalty after the first year. Establish a reasonable spend limit for routine service calls. I always recommend equal to one month rent, with PM keeping that amount in reserve in case of mid month problems. At vacancy, walk the property with the PM or request a full series of pics to evaluate and discuss proposed repairs, upgrades, and maintenance. Of course you can do the work cheaper, but you don't have overhead, licensing, or knowledge to do work that will last for years. Leave it to the pros, and go relax.
Never assume all PM's are created equal. Just like Doctors and Auto Mechanics, there are good ones, and there are bad ones. Your job is to find one that meets your needs. As always, Prevention is much less costly than remediation.
Also depends on your tenant base. not all tenants and markets are equal. some areas very tough to manage life long for ever renters.. Other areas were renters have higher incomes better credit scores and are usually renting until they can buy is a different animal altogether.
- 3moDrew SygitBusiness MemberProperty Manager · Royal Oak, MI · Member since 2012 · 12k+ posts · 9k+ votes
Dude, why are you responding on a 3-year old thread?
I get it - you're searching for opportunities to subtly push your software solution w/o violating BP self-promotion rules.
This is NOT the way to "stay under the radar" though.
Logical Property Management4.9450 Reviews - 3moGordon CuffePro MemberInvestor · Roseville, CA · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 583 votes
@Rachid Abadli I know of a property management company that just charges a flat amount of $100 per unit no matter how much the monthly rent is. My challenge in the past has been screening the tenants. I wish I could give a drug test to tenants. That has seemed to be the one indicator of non payments down the road.
- 3moRachid AbadliBusiness MemberInvestor · Sacramento, CA · Member since 2024 · 125 posts · 33 votes
@Gordon Cuffe $100/unit flat fee is actually a solid model — way more transparent than percentage-based. The problem I had was all the add-on fees that weren't obvious until month 3: lease renewals, maintenance markups, and "trip charges." The flat fee only works if it's actually flat.
On tenant screening, I hear you. Credit score alone doesn't tell the whole story. What's worked for me is looking at the full picture: income verification (actual pay stubs, not just stated income), rental history with direct landlord calls, and employment stability. In my experience, the income-to-rent ratio matters more than the credit number.
Drug testing tenants would be a legal minefield in California anyway. But I've found that a thorough application process naturally filters applicants. The ones who can't produce documents or give vague answers about prior landlords tend to self-select out when you make the bar clear upfront.
Are you mostly in the Roseville/Placer County area? The Sacramento market has its own quirks with AB 1482 exemptions depending on property type.
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