Bird Dogs Please Go Away - Get A Real Job

General Real Estate Investing

Bird Dogs Please Go Away - Get A Real Job

Curt DavisBusiness Member

Flipper/Rehabber · Memphis, TN · Member since 2008 · 5k+ posts · 2k+ votes

As a seasoned RE Wholesale Investor there are a few things that get under my skin. One of them are bird dogs. They are not the buyer and have no intention of buying, their main goal is to locate property for a real investor. They are instructed on what type of property to find and then get it in front of the buyer. The thing that bothers me is I get calls from bird dogs but they dont tell you they are one, they say things like, " I want to see the home with my buyer who is a cash buyer " and when you show up to meet them you only meet the bird dog.

To All Bird Dogs - do not waste an investors time. Tell them who you are and what your doing.

To all investors - Learn to find your own deals and stop using bird dogs, they are a waste of time.

I feel like I am taking crazy pills.

Curt Davis - KAIZEN Realty538 Reviews

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Will BarnardPro Member

Moderator

Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes

17y

OK, my $ .02 -
Just because someone is a licensed agent by NO means makes them more legit. In fact, I have run into more idiot, moronic agents tahn I have good ones. (Yes there are good ones out there)

As for birdDogs, WHY wouldn't you want others bringing you more motivated sellers? If you think they are shady or ignorant, get new birdDogs!

Many people who want to get into RE investing but are just learning and trying to raise capital can learn some of the ropes via birdDogging and it is NOT Illegal! If that were true, it would be illegal for you to sell email address leads, or any other leads that are sold by hundreds, even thousands of companies. It is the same thing as a birddog is doing. The birddog is NOT representing the buyer or the seller in a RE transaction, only locating a lead and passing it on for a fee (if and when the transction is completed, which is even better for us investors than paying upfront for email adresses or phone numbers)

Curt, if Nick, me or anyone else found a deal with no repairs needed at 10% of the value, do you really think we would pass it on to you for a fee? I realize your comment is not to be taken seriously, so I would suggest finding better quality birddogs (I agree there are many flakes and none follow through individuals out there) :cool:

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James Hiddle
Altus, OK · Member since 2008 · 2k+ posts · 690 votes
17y
So Curt when are you going to hire me as a bird dog????????????????
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Nick J.
Residential Real Estate Broker · Payson, AZ · Member since 2009 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
17y
Originally posted by Curt Davis:

To all investors - Learn to find your own deals and stop using bird dogs, they are a waste of time.

NO
0 Reply
Greg Phillips
Specialist · Laurelville, OH · Member since 2008 · 18 posts · 1 vote
17y
Isn't a Realtor performing the exact same thing? Buyer/Investor tells them what they want and they find it.

You are just going to have to deal with it. When you sell a property or 2 to them your opinion will change.
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Curt DavisBusiness Member
OP
Flipper/Rehabber · Memphis, TN · Member since 2008 · 5k+ posts · 2k+ votes
17y
Mr Investor,

Your hired!!! I need you to find me deals at 10% of arv completely renovated and cash flowing $300 per month!!!

I do not mind working with realtors, they are at least legit. Bird dogs are not legit, mostly shady.
Curt Davis - KAIZEN Realty538 Reviews
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Steve Nicewarner
Bellevue, WA · Member since 2008 · 156 posts · 57 votes
17y
Originally posted by Curt Davis:
I do not mind working with realtors, they are at least legit. Bird dogs are not legit, mostly shady.

Well thanks, I think :D
The real problem with Bird Dogs is that bird dogging is technically illegal in most states. You are, after all, getting a buyer and a seller together in exchange for compensation. In most, if not all states, that requires a real estate brokerage license.
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Nick J.
Residential Real Estate Broker · Payson, AZ · Member since 2009 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
17y
Originally posted by Steve Nicewarner:
Originally posted by Curt Davis:
I do not mind working with realtors, they are at least legit. Bird dogs are not legit, mostly shady.

Well thanks, I think :D

The real problem with Bird Dogs is that bird dogging is technically illegal in most states. You are, after all, getting a buyer and a seller together in exchange for compensation. In most, if not all states, that requires a real estate brokerage license.

OH NO..........................not this crap again!! :roll:

Steve, have you ever received a listing as a referral?
I'm sure you compensated them in some way, $100 cash, a Starbucks card or Gift card or something that gave you the opportunity to write it off on your taxes. [REMOVED]

It is illegal to be paid "commission" within the closing transaction unless your "licensed to screw people". Outside of that there is nothing illegal about selling information or introducing a seller/buyer etc......

Bird dogs is a great way to leverage yourself out there! I only have so much time to look for deals, if I have 30 of me out there doing the same thing it allows me to do more in less amount of time. And don't think for 1 second anyone here or anyone in the world of Real Estate thinks that "Agents" don't have their own "bird dogs" :roll:
1 Reply
Jon Holdman
Rental Property Investor · Mercer Island, WA · Member since 2008 · 22k+ posts · 14k+ votes
17y
Lets not get personal.
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James Hiddle
Altus, OK · Member since 2008 · 2k+ posts · 690 votes
17y
Yeah I'm getting tired of the bird dogging is illegal crap too.
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Will BarnardPro Member
Moderator
Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes
17y
OK, my $ .02 -
Just because someone is a licensed agent by NO means makes them more legit. In fact, I have run into more idiot, moronic agents tahn I have good ones. (Yes there are good ones out there)

As for birdDogs, WHY wouldn't you want others bringing you more motivated sellers? If you think they are shady or ignorant, get new birdDogs!

Many people who want to get into RE investing but are just learning and trying to raise capital can learn some of the ropes via birdDogging and it is NOT Illegal! If that were true, it would be illegal for you to sell email address leads, or any other leads that are sold by hundreds, even thousands of companies. It is the same thing as a birddog is doing. The birddog is NOT representing the buyer or the seller in a RE transaction, only locating a lead and passing it on for a fee (if and when the transction is completed, which is even better for us investors than paying upfront for email adresses or phone numbers)
Curt, if Nick, me or anyone else found a deal with no repairs needed at 10% of the value, do you really think we would pass it on to you for a fee? I realize your comment is not to be taken seriously, so I would suggest finding better quality birddogs (I agree there are many flakes and none follow through individuals out there) :cool:
Podcast Guest on Show #130
3 Reply
Nick J.
Residential Real Estate Broker · Payson, AZ · Member since 2009 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
17y
The illegal bird dogging scenario truly comes from "un-licensed brokering"

completely different than bird dogging........................

but I'm sure there will always be 2 sides to that argument brainwashed vs. un-brainwashed
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Account Closed
Manhattan, NY · Member since 2008 · 801 posts · 61 votes
17y
Really great real estate agents are like BigFoot; lots of people claim to have seen them but so far no one has produced a body.
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Will BarnardPro Member
Moderator
Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes
17y
Thats funny Taz. I guess the same could be said about RE gurus as well!
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Account Closed
Manhattan, NY · Member since 2008 · 801 posts · 61 votes
17y
Yep, I have said that many times about gurus.
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Jake Kucheck
Residential Real Estate Agent · Costa Mesa, CA · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 380 votes
17y
Having done both, I feel like I can speak to the relative experiences.

In college, I worked as a request taker at a mortgage company, and they gave me this weird title I didn't understand called Mortgage Consultant. All I did was qualify borrowers by taking a 1003, and somehow that was worth $250 to the bosses. I guess because they were making ridiculous commissions on the Option Arm/Subprime crap we were selling.

That's neither here nor there. My point is that as a bird-dog for a few RE Investors that also worked at this company, I was a complete tool. Not in the useful sense. Just a tool. I was given criteria, had no training or experience, and tried to negotiate on price with agents in a 2004 San Diego market that was NOT favorable to buyers. Basically I provided absolutely no value besides driving to a bunch of properties that the investor didn't end up buying. But hey, thats what college is for, right?

What I did learn from that is if I wanted to do anything substantial in RE, it was going to come from constantly educating myself on market conditions, making the right connections to interested and capable people, and treating everyone I came across with respect and professionalism. Basically the complete opposite of what I was as a bird-dog.

Now I'm not saying that everyone was as ignorant or apathetic as I was as a bird-dog, and I'm DEFINITELY not saying that Realtors add more value. I'm just saying that professionalism and accountability are what you should be looking for in people that are finding properties for you, whether they are licensed or not.
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Will BarnardPro Member
Moderator
Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes
17y
Your situation as a "birdDog" in the mortgage world is not the same as a "birdDog" in locating leads for RE investors. Yoiu were also mixed up with some of the biggest crooks this country has ever seen or may ever see. Just because someone is a birddog does not make them unprofessional, unethical, or unscupulous. There are crooks in every walk of life and thsoe who choose the path of righteousness are those who will give respect and earn respect.
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Fredrick Scott
Real Estate Broker · Irvine, CA · Member since 2009 · 5 posts · 0 votes
17y
Here is the thing about "Bird Dogs"... The reason why people (mainly Investors) like them is because of the fact that with a Licensed Agent (one that knows a thing or two) they will try to get you into an exclusive buyer representation agreement which prevents you from buying anything without them getting paid. With a bird dog thats not the case you can use as many as you want an dont have to pay them unless you buy something they referred and most will settle for a verbal agreement! So thats one of the reasons investors like bird dogs not to mention the convience factor of having someone else beat the pavement for you at the same time making you look legit as an investor because you dont show up until there is a deal to be made. I personally dont see a problem with bird dogs and I'm a Real Estate Broker they dont really hurt my pockets so I have no issues.
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Steve Nicewarner
Bellevue, WA · Member since 2008 · 156 posts · 57 votes
17y
I never said it should be illegal. All I said is that the letter of the law says its illegal. All it takes is one prosecutor who is looking for re-election and wants to suck up to the local Real Estate Association and Joe Bird-Dogger is in a world of hurt.

Personally, I don't care. In my mind bird-dogging is a long way from "unlicensed real estate brokerage." I'm just reluctant to base my business model on something that relies on a prosecutor looking the other way.

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Account Closed
Manhattan, NY · Member since 2008 · 801 posts · 61 votes
17y
Originally posted by Steve Nicewarner:
I never said it should be illegal. All I said is that the letter of the law says its illegal.

I'm sorry but the US Constitution trumps any local or state law limiting how I dispose of things I own.
A bird dog is not acting like a broker. They get a signed contract from the seller to buy a property. If they are REALLY smart, there will actually be demonstrable value exchanged to evidence the bird dog having an ownership interest in the transaction.

A bird dog sells their interest in the transaction. It is perfectly legal if done correctly.

BTW, if a state allows employee stock options to be pledged as collateral on a loan and be seized in case of default, the law allows any contract to be assigned unless the contract itself prohibits it.

BTW, NC does allow these types of collateral pledged.

Wow! You mean like the Durham DA who went after the Duke Lacrosse team a few years ago for PURELY political reasons?

Personally, I don't care. In my mind bird-dogging is a long way from "unlicensed real estate brokerage." I'm just reluctant to base my business model on something that relies on a prosecutor looking the other way.

We buy from bird dogs in NC every month. I'm more than happy to be a test case for a prosecutor looking for a trophy. They will fail and I will be the one with ANOTHER trophy check deposited into my bank account.

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Michael Culler
Real Estate Investor · Tampa Bay, FL · Member since 2009 · 180 posts · 17 votes
17y
If what you guys are calling bird dogging is really wholesaling then there should be signed purchase contract that includes assign ability.

I have had a Real Estate Broker try to tell me that it was illegal. I pointed out that page two of the FARBAR (Contract that is approved by Florida BAR and Florida Association of Realtors) has an assign ability section in the contract.

In that section there is a box that can be checked that says: buyer may assign and therefore be released of liability (not verbatim obviously)

So here in Florida I KNOW at least that it is totally legal.

HOWEVER, there are some wholesalers or bird dogs that tell their sellers they are marketing the property for a buyer, and they discuss things as if they are a licensed real estate agent or broker. Those are the folks that are breaking the law.

But we always used the term bird dog to describe someone who doesn't even tie up the property with a contract. They just pass on the info to us, and we go out and paper the deal and pay them if we close. They trust that we will pay them if we like the deal, and we do so we can make sure they keep bringing the deals.
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Jason Wheeler
Pleasant Hill, CA · Member since 2008 · 428 posts · 43 votes
17y
You should know how to find deals however a good bird dog is great to have. There are some who will waste your time but you just should not let them.

I know a kid at Home Depot who sends me deals all the time because.
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Joshua D.Pro Member
BiggerPockets Founder · HI · Member since 2008 · 16k+ posts · 5k+ votes
17y
because what, Jason?

Don't leave us hanging here.
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Jason Wheeler
Pleasant Hill, CA · Member since 2008 · 428 posts · 43 votes
17y
oops I didn't mean to end the comment. I was going there a lot on a rehab project I was working on and saw him in the paint area a lot. I just started talking with him and told him what I was looking for. "The kid sees people I'm looking for all the time!" I figured. He's sent me plenty, mostly because I pay him when I close a deal I guess...

The point is you need a good bird dog. Not just the ones that approach you and say that they are a bird dog.
1 Reply
Nick J.
Residential Real Estate Broker · Payson, AZ · Member since 2009 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
17y
Thats weird, that must happen all over the place then, b/c I've heard the exact same story from someone who teaches wholesaling in a expensive college that I won't mention for arguments sake.

maybe I'll talk to the 'paint' guy
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Joshua D.Pro Member
BiggerPockets Founder · HI · Member since 2008 · 16k+ posts · 5k+ votes
17y
That's actually a great idea! I've got a new course that I'm selling for $1098 that'll show you how to get deals by hanging out at the good old Home Depot . . . any takers? lol
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Jon Holdman
Rental Property Investor · Mercer Island, WA · Member since 2008 · 22k+ posts · 14k+ votes
17y
You've already given away all your secrets! That really is a great idea, though.
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