Bird Dogs Please Go Away - Get A Real Job
Curt DavisBusiness Member
Flipper/Rehabber · Memphis, TN · Member since 2008 · 5k+ posts · 2k+ votes
Curt Davis - KAIZEN Realty538 Reviews
Bird Dogs Please Go Away - Get A Real Job
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Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes
17yOK, my $ .02 -
Just because someone is a licensed agent by NO means makes them more legit. In fact, I have run into more idiot, moronic agents tahn I have good ones. (Yes there are good ones out there)
As for birdDogs, WHY wouldn't you want others bringing you more motivated sellers? If you think they are shady or ignorant, get new birdDogs!
Many people who want to get into RE investing but are just learning and trying to raise capital can learn some of the ropes via birdDogging and it is NOT Illegal! If that were true, it would be illegal for you to sell email address leads, or any other leads that are sold by hundreds, even thousands of companies. It is the same thing as a birddog is doing. The birddog is NOT representing the buyer or the seller in a RE transaction, only locating a lead and passing it on for a fee (if and when the transction is completed, which is even better for us investors than paying upfront for email adresses or phone numbers)
Curt, if Nick, me or anyone else found a deal with no repairs needed at 10% of the value, do you really think we would pass it on to you for a fee? I realize your comment is not to be taken seriously, so I would suggest finding better quality birddogs (I agree there are many flakes and none follow through individuals out there) :cool:47 Replies
- Real Estate Investor · ten mile, TN · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 374 votes17y
Actually, the best part of that information IMO is to only pay the birddog from the escrow after the deal is completed.
Anything goes wrong with anything that the dogs give you that does not allow the deal to go through then they get nothing, just like you did.
This insures that you get your deal and they get their money. It also makes it a priority that they have done their homework on the deal they are bringing you as they are investing their time into it, just as you will invest your time and money into it to complete the deal
. - Altus, OK · Member since 2008 · 2k+ posts · 690 votes17y
Originally posted by Joshua Dorkin:
That's actually a great idea! I've got a new course that I'm selling for $1098 that'll show you how to get deals by hanging out at the good old Home Depot . . . any takers? lol
I'm selling one for $997 which includes a bonus on how to pick up local women at wal mart :mrgreen: - Real Estate Agent · Tampa, FL · Member since 2009 · 456 posts · 123 votes17y
Mr Investor, most of the women at wal-mart can't be picked up unless you secretly happen to be the incredible hulk
Back to the thread; I think what the OP doesn't understand is that most of the people doing what he is describing, are not bird dogs they are sketchy wholesalers and they are trying to cut him out of the deal.
If you're a schmuck and can't find your own deals one strategy is to pose as an "investor" and then try to get an inexperienced or just foolhardy wholesaler to start telling you details about property, until you can get the address or ask him to see it, and then you go get your own buyer and try to cut the original wholesaler out or just bide your time until his contract expires and then pounce.
people like that are the reason waterboarding was invented
regular bird dogs are great, but for the record yeah they do engaged in illegal activity in most realistic transactions. If you pay them just for leads, regardless of closing or not, that's not illegal in most areas. but paying them contingent upon closing is illegal as you are making them a broker and paying them a broker fee. I know people do it all the time, but like speeding, you may get caught.
- Bellevue, WA · Member since 2008 · 156 posts · 57 votes17y
Originally posted by Taz:
Originally posted by Steve Nicewarner:
I never said it should be illegal. All I said is that the letter of the law says its illegal.
A bird dog is not acting like a broker. They get a signed contract from the seller to buy a property. If they are REALLY smart, there will actually be demonstrable value exchanged to evidence the bird dog having an ownership interest in the transaction.
A bird dog sells their interest in the transaction. It is perfectly legal if done correctly.By my understanding of the terms, that isn't bird-dogging, that is wholesaling. And I agree -- it's perfectly legal. Bird-dogs, on the other hand, have no interest in the property -- they simply put sellers and buyers together in exchange for compensation. As I understand the letter of the law, that requires a brokers license
Originally posted by Taz:
Originally posted by Steve Nicewarner:
All it takes is one prosecutor who is looking for re-election and wants to suck up to the local Real Estate Association and Joe Bird-Dogger is in a world of hurt.
Wow! You mean like the Durham DA who went after the Duke Lacrosse team a few years ago for PURELY political reasons?Actually, yes that's exactly what I mean. the farther you venture out into the grey areas, the more likely it is you run afoul of someone who is looking to score points. After all, one of the scapegoats for the whole housing meltdown is "evil speculators."
- Upland, CA · Member since 2009 · 21 posts · 0 votes17y
It's of no consequence to you.
Why write about that?
Bird dogs are just making a couple of bucks helping people. No one wants to arrest a bird dog. If you don't want to deal with one, say, "I need to deal with the principle."
Bird dogs can stay.
The Dealmaker has spoken. - Real Estate Investor · ten mile, TN · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 374 votes17y
Originally posted by Steve Nicewarner:
Originally posted by Taz:
Originally posted by Steve Nicewarner:
I never said it should be illegal. All I said is that the letter of the law says its illegal.
A bird dog is not acting like a broker. They get a signed contract from the seller to buy a property. If they are REALLY smart, there will actually be demonstrable value exchanged to evidence the bird dog having an ownership interest in the transaction.
A bird dog sells their interest in the transaction. It is perfectly legal if done correctly.
By my understanding of the terms, that isn't bird-dogging, that is wholesaling. And I agree -- it's perfectly legal. Bird-dogs, on the other hand, have no interest in the property -- they simply put sellers and buyers together in exchange for compensation. As I understand the letter of the law, that requires a brokers license
Originally posted by Taz:
Originally posted by Steve Nicewarner:
All it takes is one prosecutor who is looking for re-election and wants to suck up to the local Real Estate Association and Joe Bird-Dogger is in a world of hurt.
Wow! You mean like the Durham DA who went after the Duke Lacrosse team a few years ago for PURELY political reasons?
Actually, yes that's exactly what I mean. the farther you venture out into the grey areas, the more likely it is you run afoul of someone who is looking to score points. After all, one of the scapegoats for the whole housing meltdown is "evil speculators."
Sorry, but your understanding of things is not according to the letter of the law, which is what the courts go by as to what is legal and illegal. Depending upon the state and the actual statue birddogging is not illegal and has been decided that way in the courts. Reference the "old grey fox" senerio if you would like to.
There are several (most states in fact) that have a section in their real estate section of laws that state something similar to "if you do 8 or more deals than you are considered to be "in the business" and therefore are required to have a liscense".
That stipulation alone states that anyone can do a deal or even 7 deals and are not required by law to have an real estate liscense and has been decided that way in court. And I have yet to see any statue that actually says "birddoging is illegal".
By the way, you can secure an interest in any property by having the owner sign an properly worded NCND. This does not give you the right to sell the property, it just gives you the sole right for a period of time to market the property to a potential buyer. The payment required is subject to you bringing them qualified potential buyers and not upon the property being sold. This is selling your services as a bird dog and is not illegal in most states.
- Real Estate Investor · Tampa Bay, FL · Member since 2009 · 180 posts · 17 votes17y
I still don't see why EVERY bird dog wouldn't upgrade their status to wholesaler.
Even if they just did a makeshift option contract with the seller, and got it right later. Why start yourself out with a nickname like bird dog anyway?
I know plenty of wholesalers that didn't know their butt from a hole in the ground, so it cant be that bird dogging is required for the experience or something.
I'm not saying I mind that they do business the way they choose to do it. I just think its the easiest upgrade in the world to make. It's not as hard as say, going from wholesaler to rehabber or something of that nature. - Real Estate Investor · ten mile, TN · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 374 votes17y
Originally posted by Michael Culler:
I still don't see why EVERY bird dog wouldn't upgrade their status to wholesaler.
Even if they just did a makeshift option contract with the seller, and got it right later. Why start yourself out with a nickname like bird dog anyway?
I know plenty of wholesalers that didn't know their butt from a hole in the ground, so it cant be that bird dogging is required for the experience or something.
I'm not saying I mind that they do business the way they choose to do it. I just think its the easiest upgrade in the world to make. It's not as hard as say, going from wholesaler to rehabber or something of that nature.
This is so very true. I believe that the name was created by the guru's to sell their programs, which do not really teach you anything about how to make the most money in RE. It actually only creates a group of people looking for the "easy money" when they bring them more and more deals.
Dont forget that the bird half of the birddog can not exist without the dog half to rely on.
- Developer · NE · Member since 2011 · 7 posts · 0 votes15y
It is my understanding that if you don't have vested interest in the property then you legally you are not breaking any laws.
Janis
- Rental Property Investor · Mercer Island, WA · Member since 2008 · 22k+ posts · 14k+ votes15y
I think its just the opposite. If you don't have a vested interest in the property, and you're collecting a fee, then you're engaged in unlicensed brokering. "Wholesalers" avoid this because they have some sort of vested interest, e.g., a purchase and sale agreement. This has been discussed a number of times and there's no real consensus. Seems to vary from state to state.
- Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes15y
Ok let's think about it. A bunch of intelligent people on this forum can't even come to a consensus as to if bird dogging is illegal or not.
Wholesaling,Bird dogging,Brokering there are many actions that can make something an illegal activity if not structured and in compliance within the Federal and State laws.
I think the illegal thing is to get the investor buyer off the phone.The broker simply doesn't know the intentions of the investor and their so called strategy.
The investor if they make a mistake gets a slap on the wrist usually.The broker/agent could lose their license over making a small fee compared to the investors returns.
As a broker/agent you do not want ALL business.If I don't feel comfortable with a strategy then I don't have to involved in it.Usually if you increase the earnest money for the seller it will get rid of these types as they don't have a pot to p#ss in.
- Carlsbad, CA · Member since 2011 · 14 posts · 1 vote15y
A lot of brokers I know depend on them for new business, and there is nothing illegal about them in California within certain conditions. It is called a finders fee, and the finder steps away when the parties are introduced.
- Residential Real Estate Agent · Livermore, CA · Member since 2010 · 140 posts · 28 votes15y
As someone unfamiliar with the term prior to this website, I had odd thoughts about it. All of my feelings have been expressed in your opinions. Thanks for this thread.
- Investor · Willow Spring, NC · Member since 2009 · 5k+ posts · 3k+ votes15y
Two more cents... as expressed elsewhere, check your state laws. An observation: Steve Nicewarner is a broker. I know where he's coming from since in NC, RE agents/brokers can't pay unlicensed people. The NC REC says "...licensed brokers and salesmen cannot compensate (by either cash or gifts) persons who have performed acts or services for which a real estate license is required. This has been held to include the payment of finders fees, referral fees, "bird dog" fees, or similar compensation."
So regarding "And I have yet to see any statue that actually says "birddoging is illegal"." The ruling is actually from the state's Real Estate Commission, not a statute... and applies to licensed real estate people not principal buyers.
By definition (again this is NC) a "true" birddog isn't illegal.
- Select a State · Member since 2011 · 90 posts · 3 votes15y
Hi
Interesting discussion. From my little experience and lots of research, its all about if you want a job done well, do it yourself and do the due diligence. I gave up on using a wholesaler and birdogs because I realized these professionals just did not work for me. Whether I ever choose to work with a wholesaler or birdog I would always do my necessary due diligence regardless, this to me is the most important action to take when buying any form of real estate or investment for that matter. Ask questions and get answers.
Just my 2 cents on what I have learned so far.
Peter
- Real Estate Consultant · Bloomfield, NJ · Member since 2010 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes15y
Doesn't matter if it's on the books or not, in the end a judge will likely decide. Esp. if someone pulls you in front of one in a civil matter. I got pulled in front of one a couple of years ago and the judge made it plain that if I continued "brokering without a license" (I called it 'wholesaling' but he didn't care) he was going to bring me in front of the real estate commission (who I thought could only regulate licensees). Go figure.
- Rental Property Investor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2011 · 17 posts · 7 votes15y
Well, it finally happened. A group in N. CA got wind of this thread and just announced they're opening a shelter for battered and abused bird dogs. Please send $$$ and Alpo!
With the proper care and feeding, Bird Doggies can be an investor's "best" friend. For me, it always comes down to the value of time. Personally, my time is better invested closing deals rather than finding them (to an extent).
Let's not forget the original poster's charge: "Learn to find your own deals and stop using bird dogs, they are a waste of time."
Driving around for hours hunting prospective properties, TO ME, is a waste of time. Savvy investors have a deep toolbox of deal-finding techniques. Savvy investors understand the Time/ROI equation. Trained properly, Bird Dogs are one tool to help keep fresh leads flowing while freeing us up to engage in more profitable activities. You wouldn’t hand address 1000 yellow letters, would you? Some jobs are best outsourced.
For the pups who have greater RE aspirations, it's a ground floor opportunity. I'm all for helping out the next gen of investors. After all, isn't that why we're all here?
- Real Estate Investor · Saint Louis, MO · Member since 2012 · 3 posts · 0 votes14y
Im birddogging for commercial properties which is much easier than single homes which is too much hassle to do which is not worth of my time and investor's The commercial market are very hot due to low prices. Birddogs does not require real estate liscnse to do since they can file 1099 tax as self employment. In other ways if flipping to other investors will require to set up LLC. Such paperwork, use lawyer to draft up documents for you to keep yourself good in eyes of court. Im just to say out in open, thats all.
- Investor · Charlotte, NC · Member since 2011 · 7 posts · 5 votes14y
Bird dogging would be illegal if they are hands on the sell of a property and directing traffic. As long as they are collecting information and selling information and get out of dodge then they should be ok.
I never knew selling a phone number was illegal.
- Seattle, WA · Member since 2012 · 19 posts · 0 votes13y
I Live in washington. and currently taking a Real Estate Practices and Fundamental course at a community college and our first week, one of the slide brought this up but instead of being called "Birddog" its a facilitator or intermediary. On the slide I am reading, it stated that It was LEGAL,
"Person may be involved in transaction without forming agency relationship with either party.
Known as facilitator or intermediary, and is compensated through finder’s fee."
- Rehabber · Prattville, AL · Member since 2013 · 39 posts · 10 votes13y
Curt Davis I think you are right and wrong.
Right on they should tell you who they are and what they do. I look at properties for end buyers ( my term for people who are just investing money in real estate verse someone like you or I who do this as a business). All of the wholesalers I deal with know this, no need to mislead. Then if you show me the property you know in advance if I am or I am not the one buying, if you don't want to show me your loss not mine (we but 10-15 a month). I can defiantly see why people dislike them. A lot are new and have no idea what they are doing.
I think you are wrong on their need. I find them invaluable. I can not look at enough properties or call enough people . Most are new and I train or have regular jobs and just looking for a way to make extra money. I teach them what areas I am interested in, then they look for FSBO and get me the basic info and if it is a possible deal, I call owner. I also teach them to tell the owner who they are, and to never misrepresent that. I only want FSBO from them as I already have MLS and most wholesalers in the area covered as part of my regular operations.
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