REAL return on real estate is MUCH lower than many claim here

REAL return on real estate is MUCH lower than many claim here

Real Estate Investor · Rockville, MD · Member since 2015 · 9 posts · 6 votes

Real estate is a good enough investment as is - why tell people fairy tales?

First off, I am talking about pure passive investing. If people want to get into the real estate BUSINESS, and do all the labor that is involved in any business, then that is fine and it can be a great business. But look at an ordinary passive rental property and it comes out no better than investing in the stock market.

And I say this as someone who owns a 2-bedroom condo in the Washington, DC area that rents furnished for $4,000/month long-term (currently on a 25-month lease, i.e. a $100,000 payment guaranteed by the Brazilian Embassy) or up to $8,000/month during peak months when on Airbnb. (Yes, I know most investors invest in the lower end and you can get greater returns there in exchange for more work.)

But in other words, I dumped a lot of money into this property because I like real estate. But when I see things like people saying you'll earn a 50-60% return on your money, that is frankly nonsense. The learning and effort needed to hunt down severely undervalued properties, sometimes out-of-state, the learning and effort of doing renovations and managing contractors, the learning and effort needed to list properties, screen tenants and perform property management - these are things that are needed in running a real estate BUSINESS. This is not a passive investment like making automatic monthly deposits into an index fund for long-term stock investing and then going to spend time with your family. If you own a restaurant and buy pasta for $1 and sell a plate for $10, you don't say pasta is a great investment with a 1000% return!

If you look at PASSIVE single-family investing, i.e. pick a random, well-maintained property at fair market value (and yes, obviously there will be large regional variations - I'm talking averages), you're probably going to need at least a 40% down payment to just not have negative cash flow. Let's say you put 50% down - that may give you the following:

1) a 2% cash-on-cash yield (and even to get that you'll probably need to list and manage the property yourself, which you probably can do since it's a local property not in need of extensive renovations)

2) 6% in leveraged appreciation, since you're leveraged 2-to-1 with a 50% down payment (and assuming 3% appreciation, which is about what Nobel winner Robert Schiller has noted is accurate long-term)

3) a 1.5% equity buildup from loan amortization.

That gives you a return of 2% + 6% + 1.5% = 9.5%. AT FIRST.

But eventually you're going to want to pay off that property. And whether you do that from cash flow or from new money you earn from your job, the return on the loan payoff is 4% (or whatever your mortgage rate happens to be). So if you get a 9.5% return on the first 50% of your money and a 4% return on the second 50%, your total return is going to be closer to 7% or somewhere thereabouts. Unless you plan on never paying off your loans and just taking out new 30-year mortgages into your 60's and 70's. (And yes, I know I am simplifying some things - I have a degree in math so I know how to run these numbers but am intentionally simplifying some things.)

Frankly, you'll probably get your 7% easier from the stock market - Microsoft is never going to call you to fix their toilet or force you to go to court in order to collect your dividend. Again, I like real estate fine now with the artificial stock prices caused by low interest rates, but let's just be honest about the return. Articles about getting 60% returns on your money are why so many investors find themselves desperate to unload their "money pits" despite their 30% down payment.

I think Warren Buffett might know what he's talking when he says that just a generic index fund, purchased over time, is the best way for most people to get rich - and that even for billions, his trustees will be instructed to follow that strategy after his death. And again, I like real estate - more people here just need to differentiate between passive investing and owning a real estate BUSINESS.

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Levi T.Pro Member
Rental Property Investor · Tucson AZ / Nice FR / Washington DC · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
9y
Originally posted by @Rishi Ramlogan:

Real estate is a good enough investment as is - why tell people fairy tales?

First off, I am talking about pure passive investing. If people want to get into the real estate BUSINESS, and do all the labor that is involved in any business, then that is fine and it can be a great business. But look at an ordinary passive rental property and it comes out no better than investing in the stock market.

And I say this as someone who owns a 2-bedroom condo in the Washington, DC area that rents furnished for $4,000/month long-term (currently on a 25-month lease, i.e. a $100,000 payment guaranteed by the Brazilian Embassy) or up to $8,000/month during peak months when on Airbnb. (Yes, I know most investors invest in the lower end and you can get greater returns there in exchange for more work.)

But in other words, I dumped a lot of money into this property because I like real estate. But when I see things like people saying you'll earn a 50-60% return on your money, that is frankly nonsense. The learning and effort needed to hunt down severely undervalued properties, sometimes out-of-state, the learning and effort of doing renovations and managing contractors, the learning and effort needed to list properties, screen tenants and perform property management - these are things that are needed in running a real estate BUSINESS. This is not a passive investment like making automatic monthly deposits into an index fund for long-term stock investing and then going to spend time with your family. If you own a restaurant and buy pasta for $1 and sell a plate for $10, you don't say pasta is a great investment with a 1000% return!

If you look at PASSIVE single-family investing, i.e. pick a random, well-maintained property at fair market value (and yes, obviously there will be large regional variations - I'm talking averages), you're probably going to need at least a 40% down payment to just not have negative cash flow. Let's say you put 50% down - that may give you the following:

1) a 2% cash-on-cash yield (and even to get that you'll probably need to list and manage the property yourself, which you probably can do since it's a local property not in need of extensive renovations)

2) 6% in leveraged appreciation, since you're leveraged 2-to-1 with a 50% down payment (and assuming 3% appreciation, which is about what Nobel winner Robert Schiller has noted is accurate long-term)

3) a 1.5% equity buildup from loan amortization.

That gives you a return of 2% + 6% + 1.5% = 9.5%. AT FIRST.

But eventually you're going to want to pay off that property. And whether you do that from cash flow or from new money you earn from your job, the return on the loan payoff is 4% (or whatever your mortgage rate happens to be). So if you get a 9.5% return on the first 50% of your money and a 4% return on the second 50%, your total return is going to be closer to 7% or somewhere thereabouts. Unless you plan on never paying off your loans and just taking out new 30-year mortgages into your 60's and 70's. (And yes, I know I am simplifying some things - I have a degree in math so I know how to run these numbers but am intentionally simplifying some things.)

Frankly, you'll probably get your 7% easier from the stock market - Microsoft is never going to call you to fix their toilet or force you to go to court in order to collect your dividend. Again, I like real estate fine now with the artificial stock prices caused by low interest rates, but let's just be honest about the return. Articles about getting 60% returns on your money are why so many investors find themselves desperate to unload their "money pits" despite their 30% down payment.

I think Warren Buffett might know what he's talking when he says that just a generic index fund, purchased over time, is the best way for most people to get rich - and that even for billions, his trustees will be instructed to follow that strategy after his death. And again, I like real estate - more people here just need to differentiate between passive investing and owning a real estate BUSINESS.

Funny that you mention Warren Buffett, he has been quoted as saying he would buy up SFH rentals if he just could get it in bulk for the amount of money he has, Blackstone group did it and now is taking their company public with over 1,000 rentals. Even Buffett launched Berkshire Hathaway Real Estate Group recently.

Real estate is one of the best asset classes there is, it's normally just a local type investment which was it's downfall in the days of old, but things are changing quickly in the industry, thus Blackstone group launching a public real estate company.

Only people not making better returns than the stock market are people who are doing it all wrong. You are right about it being a business, just like trading stocks all day long is a business too, that why you have portfolio managers and property mangers. Just like houses, if you buy stocks at the peak price, it's going to be a long road before you get your value out of it, if ever. So buy your favorite assets when you can get them a steel of a deal! 

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  • Russell BrazilBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes
    9y

    I make a pretty good return using a standard 20-25% down payment. I find no need to put down 40-50%. My cash on cash returns tend to be 15% on my cheaper properties, and about 8-10% on my more expensive properties. Ive never measured my IRR, but thats going to give a much better overall picture of real total return. A big factor in your IRR though is going to be holding period though as the sales costs gets spread over whatever the holding period is.

  • Real Estate Professional · Pawtucket, RI · Member since 2016 · 133 posts · 79 votes
    9y

    The only time I hear people talking about returns like your referring to +40% is because they have minimal invested so the numbers do make sense but most investors are usually getting 10-15% typically/realistically 

  • Real Estate Investor · Rockville, MD · Member since 2015 · 9 posts · 6 votes
    9y

    Russell, you're local here in Rockville.  Care to share where and what type of properties are giving you 8-15% cash-on-cash yields with a 25% down payment?  I have not seen anything remotely approaching that, and if that is the case, I would purchase several properties through your agency.

  • Russell BrazilBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes
    9y

    Properties in Burgundy Estates or Twinbrook in Rockville, properties in Strathmore at Bel Pre or Foxhall in Silver Spring, East Rockville, Riggs Park in DC to name a few.

  • Real Estate Investor · Rockville, MD · Member since 2015 · 9 posts · 6 votes
    9y

    Hmmm, Russell, I hope this conversation isn't getting too specific or off-topic, but what condition are the properties in (renovations needed?), approximate purchase price range? Seems like 8-15% cash yields - if it's fairly passive - in a stable and likely-to-appreciate market like DC would make you rich fairly quickly.

  • Joe VilleneuvePro Member
    Plymouth, MI · Member since 2013 · 13k+ posts · 19k+ votes
    9y

    Merry Christmas 

    @Rishi Ramlogan you just made my year...actually both 2016 and 2017 with this example of "I can't do it, so nobody else can do it" tirade.  I gotta tell ya', this was really a funny, funny, l  o  o  o  n  g  explanation and proof as well.

    You hit on all the wrong ways to invest in RE as reasons why you can't make money in RE, and never touched on the right ways to do REI...I'm guessing because you are unfamiliar with any of them. You started with the biggest mistake a lot of REI investors make...investing in the wrong market, and then used all your other examples of why REI doesn't work right after that. Well daaa.

    Of course nothing else would work.  Your starting point was so wrong that everything else that followed just made things worse.  Lack of knowledge does not mean others that have the knowledge can't be successful.

    Sorry if you think all of us successful REI are liars or something ("...why tell people fairy tales?...")...but, we're not.

    My question to you is this, if being successful in REI can't be done, I mean wildly successful, then should those of us who are (and there are many) give it all back?

  • Real Estate Investor · Rockville, MD · Member since 2015 · 9 posts · 6 votes
    9y

    Joe, sorry you misunderstood my post.  As I mentioned, I like real estate - I just think people need to differentiate between a PASSIVE investment and a business.

    Not sure if you've ever been in the position where you have over $10,000 in cash that you need to invest every month.  First of all, generating incomes in the $250,000+ level requires a lot of time and focus, hence my emphasis at this time on a PASSIVE investment.  I see articles about hunting down a $50,000 foreclosure and putting $10,000 down - I simply don't have time for that right now and would have to purchase a new one every few weeks, and even if I were to do so, the management of those properties would quickly overwhelm me.....unless I were to scale back at my job, and the financial tradeoff of doing so wouldn't be worth it.

    That is why I chose to purchase a condo 5 minutes from my house and one where I could dump several hundred thousand dollars.  Of course I know it is possible to generate higher returns on capital than I currently am through my condo, if I enter the real estate BUSINESS.  My plan right now is to generate a few million dollars through income and PASSIVE investments, and then 1035 into higher-yielding properties once I am "retired".  Big cities like DC have jobs that pay high incomes but will also have lower cap rates on real estate, so I guess I could move to a less favorable area for jobs, but I'm interested in income right now so I make that trade-off.

    If you are in the real estate business (even part-time) and you are successful, I applaud you and I'm not sure why the hostility.  All I was saying is that the PASSIVE return on capital is much lower than I see discussed here.

  • Joe VilleneuvePro Member
    Plymouth, MI · Member since 2013 · 13k+ posts · 19k+ votes
    9y

    Rishi.  My post wasn't meant hostile...or to be confrontational.  If it came off that way I'm sorry, but...

    I stand by the content of what I posted.  I went back and reread your post, and there is nothing in my post I would change.  Your statements of the problems you've had, and many others have had, are simply a result of starting in the wrong market...and, the number one reason why they start in the wrong market, is they feel they must invest in a market close to them.  They know that market, so that seems to make sense.  They're correct.  It makes cents.

    If you want to make dollars, and yes many dollars passively, and quickly, you need to listen to what the market is telling you. It isn't REI that is restrictive/limited in passive income...it's the market... and when that market is telling you "don't invest here" (which it sounds like it is), then you need to find a market somewhere else.

    3 things that every REI MUST understand, and be able to blend together are:

    1)  Market Analysis to find Where to invest.

    2)  How Money Works, to find How to invest

    3) A REI Plan, to find What to invest

    The most common failures are brought about by the lack of true understanding of those 3 things, and how they relate to REI. The most common mistakes from that lack of understanding, as applied to the 3 things mentioned above, are:

    1)  Investing in the Wrong Market

    2)  Not knowing the difference between Spending and Using your Cash

    3)  Investing with a "One Property" mindset

    ...and all three MUST work together in perfect harmony, as a business.

    Passive income can, and should be, very high as far as the return on capital.

  • Investor · Pawleys Island, SC · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 837 votes
    9y

    @Rishi Ramlogan

    In my opinion, there is no such thing as a passive investment.  All successful investments, including real estate, need to be actively managed. Although the IRS (by definition) has characterized the income from a real estate rental activity as passive income, this definition in no way implies that the management of the activity is also passive.  

    A rental property owner can outsource all of the day-to-day property management activities to a professional property management firm and get close to a turnkey operation, but the owner still needs to actively manage the manager.

  • Member since 2016 · 13k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    9y

    @Rishi Ramlogan

    The bases of your post is correct. The numbers are rarely as most will claim and they generally understate or ignore expenses. They rarely even consider the cost of long term expenses in their calculations.

    Investing in real estate is not a passive investment whether you manage yourself or manage a PM.

    The only mistake you made is in indicating that paying down a mortgage increases cash flow. This is a common misconception that investors also use to inflate their returns. The opportunity value of cash actually reduces cash flow when properly accounted for.

    Strange how real estate investors always want to think they are making more money than they actual do but for the most part it is ignorance more than anything else. They see the rent coming in and fail to properly calculate the money potentially going out. They usually base their numbers on yesterday and choose not to look at tomorrow. 

  • Adrian StamerPro Member
    Real Estate Investor & Agent · Richmond, VA · Member since 2013 · 319 posts · 167 votes
    9y

    leverage and scale... on properties with much better ROI

  • Real Estate Investor · Rockville, MD · Member since 2015 · 9 posts · 6 votes
    9y

    Greg, understood about the opportunity cost of money and the cost of paying down a mortgage.  But at a certain point, aren't you going to want to deleverage, at least somewhat?  Maybe I'm just more risk averse than others, but I'm willing at a certain point to accept the lower returns of paying down mortgages if it means reducing my debt load.  And if so, then that has to be included in your calculation of overall return.

  • Real Estate Investor · Rockville, MD · Member since 2015 · 9 posts · 6 votes
    9y

    Joe and Dave, your posts illustrate what I was talking about re: lack of passivity in real estate. If you are searching across the country for opportunities, dealing with banks, private money, etc., managing a property remotely (even managing the property manager), then that is in my opinion a business, albeit a part-time business.

    That is not comparable to buying every month into a Vanguard ETF that tracks the S&P 500 and then just having the emotional intelligence not to sell when the market drops - doing that will earn you 7% long-term with no work. And as I've said before, there is nothing wrong with starting a real estate business - Andrew Carnegie once said that 90% of all millionaires became so by owning real estate - but what you are describing is not a passive investment.

    Our (non-real-estate) business constantly has to be searching for the best sources of internet marketing across the country, have staff to handle the sales process, deal with some staff who are remote (and let me tell you, managing remotely is not always easy), deal with accounting, legal, etc. So we don't say our ROI on our internet marketing leads alone is super-high because that neglects the fact that a lot of brainpower and mental energy is required from smart people to make it work, brainpower that if applied elsewhere would also generate income. In other words, our labor, which is finite, is contributing in a meaningful way to the returns in a way that is not necessary in a passive investment like the stock market.

    We do all that because it's a good business, but a lot of real estate investors get into trouble because they don't know that they are getting into a business, and when you subtract the value of your labor, I contend that the real return on capital is going to be around 7%, just like in the stock market.

  • Joe VilleneuvePro Member
    Plymouth, MI · Member since 2013 · 13k+ posts · 19k+ votes
    9y

    Rishi. You are missing the biggest point. Your description of REI, and how it is a lot of work, is only if you're doing it wrong. You're focusing on the wrong measure of time. If you are working hard, and your money isn't, then you're doing it backwards. The best thing about REI, is you can make your money do all the work for you, once you are:

    1)  In the right market, the market works for you and properties come to you.

    2) Know how to get free money, and your money does all the work...or at least most of it.

    3)  Put a plan together where all three things work together, and it all comes together...and very, very fast.

    All three working together makes for very little actual work, and many happy returns. 

    You are `100% correct with your focus on time.  It comes down to efficient use of time and funds.  However, if you do it right, it's your funds that do all the work.  You have only 24 hours in the day...your funds have an infinite number of hours, that can be compounded.

    Einstein said the greatest invention of the 20th century was "compound interest".  What he said right after that was more telling.  He said, "...those that understand it, will live off of those that don't".

  • Real Estate Broker · Hugo, MN · Member since 2016 · 688 posts · 596 votes
    9y
    We deal with 10+ units and we go with a game plan. We are the agent for acquisition and PM so we know the properties before they are purchased and only recommend the ones that we know can improve. Our returns are not so great in the first two years as we invest them into the properties so that we are able to decrease expenses and increase income through a multitude of sources. We then are able to show stabile increased NOI for three years for our investors to cash out refinance or sell. They can expect solid increases in yearly profit during the last three years, but the increased value in the property is where the greatest gains come. An increased value of 1/3rd is not asking too much. We both manage and offer to share in 10% ownership to show our commitment and align our interests. I don't think that our game plan would apply as effectively to sfh or other small multifamily properties. But when they available the 10+ unit apartments that have value add opportunities can really outpace the stock market.
  • Levi T.Pro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Tucson AZ / Nice FR / Washington DC · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Rishi Ramlogan:

    Real estate is a good enough investment as is - why tell people fairy tales?

    First off, I am talking about pure passive investing. If people want to get into the real estate BUSINESS, and do all the labor that is involved in any business, then that is fine and it can be a great business. But look at an ordinary passive rental property and it comes out no better than investing in the stock market.

    And I say this as someone who owns a 2-bedroom condo in the Washington, DC area that rents furnished for $4,000/month long-term (currently on a 25-month lease, i.e. a $100,000 payment guaranteed by the Brazilian Embassy) or up to $8,000/month during peak months when on Airbnb. (Yes, I know most investors invest in the lower end and you can get greater returns there in exchange for more work.)

    But in other words, I dumped a lot of money into this property because I like real estate. But when I see things like people saying you'll earn a 50-60% return on your money, that is frankly nonsense. The learning and effort needed to hunt down severely undervalued properties, sometimes out-of-state, the learning and effort of doing renovations and managing contractors, the learning and effort needed to list properties, screen tenants and perform property management - these are things that are needed in running a real estate BUSINESS. This is not a passive investment like making automatic monthly deposits into an index fund for long-term stock investing and then going to spend time with your family. If you own a restaurant and buy pasta for $1 and sell a plate for $10, you don't say pasta is a great investment with a 1000% return!

    If you look at PASSIVE single-family investing, i.e. pick a random, well-maintained property at fair market value (and yes, obviously there will be large regional variations - I'm talking averages), you're probably going to need at least a 40% down payment to just not have negative cash flow. Let's say you put 50% down - that may give you the following:

    1) a 2% cash-on-cash yield (and even to get that you'll probably need to list and manage the property yourself, which you probably can do since it's a local property not in need of extensive renovations)

    2) 6% in leveraged appreciation, since you're leveraged 2-to-1 with a 50% down payment (and assuming 3% appreciation, which is about what Nobel winner Robert Schiller has noted is accurate long-term)

    3) a 1.5% equity buildup from loan amortization.

    That gives you a return of 2% + 6% + 1.5% = 9.5%. AT FIRST.

    But eventually you're going to want to pay off that property. And whether you do that from cash flow or from new money you earn from your job, the return on the loan payoff is 4% (or whatever your mortgage rate happens to be). So if you get a 9.5% return on the first 50% of your money and a 4% return on the second 50%, your total return is going to be closer to 7% or somewhere thereabouts. Unless you plan on never paying off your loans and just taking out new 30-year mortgages into your 60's and 70's. (And yes, I know I am simplifying some things - I have a degree in math so I know how to run these numbers but am intentionally simplifying some things.)

    Frankly, you'll probably get your 7% easier from the stock market - Microsoft is never going to call you to fix their toilet or force you to go to court in order to collect your dividend. Again, I like real estate fine now with the artificial stock prices caused by low interest rates, but let's just be honest about the return. Articles about getting 60% returns on your money are why so many investors find themselves desperate to unload their "money pits" despite their 30% down payment.

    I think Warren Buffett might know what he's talking when he says that just a generic index fund, purchased over time, is the best way for most people to get rich - and that even for billions, his trustees will be instructed to follow that strategy after his death. And again, I like real estate - more people here just need to differentiate between passive investing and owning a real estate BUSINESS.

    Funny that you mention Warren Buffett, he has been quoted as saying he would buy up SFH rentals if he just could get it in bulk for the amount of money he has, Blackstone group did it and now is taking their company public with over 1,000 rentals. Even Buffett launched Berkshire Hathaway Real Estate Group recently.

    Real estate is one of the best asset classes there is, it's normally just a local type investment which was it's downfall in the days of old, but things are changing quickly in the industry, thus Blackstone group launching a public real estate company.

    Only people not making better returns than the stock market are people who are doing it all wrong. You are right about it being a business, just like trading stocks all day long is a business too, that why you have portfolio managers and property mangers. Just like houses, if you buy stocks at the peak price, it's going to be a long road before you get your value out of it, if ever. So buy your favorite assets when you can get them a steel of a deal! 

  • Joe VilleneuvePro Member
    Plymouth, MI · Member since 2013 · 13k+ posts · 19k+ votes
    9y

    @Levi T.Brilliantly said.  Can I vote for your post more than once?

  • Chattanooga, TN · Member since 2014 · 24 posts · 3 votes
    9y
    Interesting
  • Real Estate Investor · Rockville, MD · Member since 2015 · 9 posts · 6 votes
    9y

    Levi, I actually think there is a big difference between passive stock investing and managing rental properties. Day trading is definitely not passive, but investing into the S&P 500 broadly, without picking stocks - or just "buying a slice of American business" as Warren Buffett calls it - is very passive. I'm actually a huge fan of Buffett, and re: his quote about purchasing SFH's, he specifically said the management of them was what was problematic to him, which is exactly the point I've been making. And apart from an investment he recently made in Sears' troubled real estate assets, I'm pretty sure he is not in real estate in any meaningful way.

    And Joe, I actually don't think I'm missing the point, though we clearly have two different points of view.  Veering off course here, but it's an interesting point - when you are first getting rich, I believe your income and savings rate are more important than your rate of return.  As I mentioned, I majored in math so I understand compound interest (and Einstein's quote was a great one).

    But let's say you have an engineer making $50,000/year and it costs them $40,000 to support their family, so they can save $10,000/year.  It's much safer and better for that person to try to increase their income to $100,000 instead of chasing outsized returns.  Maybe get an MBA to take your salary to $80,000 and have your spouse make $20,000 selling real estate part-time while the kids are in school.

    If you keep your expenses at $40,000, ignoring taxes for a minute, then you can invest annually $60,000 = $100,000 - $40,000.  If you start at $0 and invest $60,000/year for 20 years at 7%, you'll have $2,632,000.

    But if you keep your income at $50,000 and invest just $10,000 over 20 years, then to end up with the same $2,632,000, YOU NEED TO BE EARNING A RETURN OVER 21% (and just for comparison, Warren Buffett became the greatest investor of all-time by earning a 20% return over his 50-year career)!  So if you ask me, is it safer and more likely to try to be the Warren Buffett of real estate, or to just get an MBA and be frugal, I think the answer is pretty clear.

    And that doesn't even take into account how leveraged you have to be to earn 21% over the long-haul.  Or what if you lose your job - having that higher income means you can accept a lower salary and still make things work out, instead of having to sell assets and potentially at a loss.  I'm sorry but for any number of reasons, I think earning a higher income and being frugal is the better path.

    Now once you have the $2,500,000 in assets, then your investment returns really take over and you don't even have to work, so income and frugality are less important at that point.  At that point, you can be content 3% in dividends from stocks, giving you a $75,000 income.  Or I can get in touch with you for some killer 10% unleveraged deals and have a $250,000 income off of my $2,500,000.

  • Levi T.Pro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Tucson AZ / Nice FR / Washington DC · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Rishi Ramlogan:

    Levi, I actually think there is a big difference between passive stock investing and managing rental properties. Day trading is definitely not passive, but investing into the S&P 500 broadly, without picking stocks - or just "buying a slice of American business" as Warren Buffett calls it - is very passive. I'm actually a huge fan of Buffett, and re: his quote about purchasing SFH's, he specifically said the management of them was what was problematic to him, which is exactly the point I've been making. And apart from an investment he recently made in Sears' troubled real estate assets, I'm pretty sure he is not in real estate in any meaningful way.

    And Joe, I actually don't think I'm missing the point, though we clearly have two different points of view.  Veering off course here, but it's an interesting point - when you are first getting rich, I believe your income and savings rate are more important than your rate of return.  As I mentioned, I majored in math so I understand compound interest (and Einstein's quote was a great one).

    But let's say you have an engineer making $50,000/year and it costs them $40,000 to support their family, so they can save $10,000/year.  It's much safer and better for that person to try to increase their income to $100,000 instead of chasing outsized returns.  Maybe get an MBA to take your salary to $80,000 and have your spouse make $20,000 selling real estate part-time while the kids are in school.

    If you keep your expenses at $40,000, ignoring taxes for a minute, then you can invest annually $60,000 = $100,000 - $40,000.  If you start at $0 and invest $60,000/year for 20 years at 7%, you'll have $2,632,000.

    But if you keep your income at $50,000 and invest just $10,000 over 20 years, then to end up with the same $2,632,000, YOU NEED TO BE EARNING A RETURN OVER 21% (and just for comparison, Warren Buffett became the greatest investor of all-time by earning a 20% return over his 50-year career)!  So if you ask me, is it safer and more likely to try to be the Warren Buffett of real estate, or to just get an MBA and be frugal, I think the answer is pretty clear.

    And that doesn't even take into account how leveraged you have to be to earn 21% over the long-haul.  Or what if you lose your job - having that higher income means you can accept a lower salary and still make things work out, instead of having to sell assets and potentially at a loss.  I'm sorry but for any number of reasons, I think earning a higher income and being frugal is the better path.

    Now once you have the $2,500,000 in assets, then your investment returns really take over and you don't even have to work, so income and frugality are less important at that point.  At that point, you can be content 3% in dividends from stocks, giving you a $75,000 income.  Or I can get in touch with you for some killer 10% unleveraged deals and have a $250,000 income off of my $2,500,000.

    As I told a very brillant friend once. Your so fascinated with the doorknob, that you never step through the door to realize the returns on the other side. 

    Warren Buffett in his own words https://youtu.be/NfplPAl0KiU

    Blackstone group did exactly what warren buffett said to do, and won big! www.wsj.com/articles/wall-street-as-landlord-black...

    Ill let someone else argue more numbers with you, but if I took 1 of the 22 houses I bought last week and sold it, I'd net $40,000 for my 9k cash investment in just that one, I could then fold that and buy 5 more.. but I'm a buy and hold hold hold type of guy, and I like the 100k+ net rents I'll make from the 22 units each year with my own managers running the show, while I sit at home chatting on BP.. maybe I'm just a ignorant millionaire, but I figure a sub 200k investment for about 130k net return per year ain't bad, and that 22 units was just for one month. Even I things went sideways, I'm still cleaning a better return than any stock market average I've seen by any money manager I've had or seen in my years.

    Not everyone can do this, out of 10 people only 1 will be successful and only one in 100 will be wildly successful. Just like those who invest in the stock market, or play golf!

    Best,

  • Joe VilleneuvePro Member
    Plymouth, MI · Member since 2013 · 13k+ posts · 19k+ votes
    9y

    @Levi T.again, I want to vote more than once for what you said.  Specifically, "Your so fascinated with the doorknob, that you never step through the door to realize the returns on the other side."  WOW...that nailed it.

    ...and yes you are missing the point Rashi, and the quote above from Levi completely explains it.  It's one of those many things in life that is hidden in plain sight.

    You are focusing on the wrong money.  Of course you are going to have trouble if your source of funds is your job.  That's an example of you working for your money.  It will take forever, and Einstein would be shaking his head the entire time.  Spend your job income on your bills.  Using job income for investment purposes will frustrate you to no end.

    Also, you don't need to manage anything if you do it correctly, because you're not dealing with passive income until after you've compounded your seed money.  Then, you never spend your seed money...ever. If you do it right, you'll be recycling your seed money over and over, USING it to infinity.  Once you spend it, you go back to square one.  This is what you are doing, and it means you will be working hard, and spending money, and taking a long time to get anywhere.

  • Real Estate Investor · Rockville, MD · Member since 2015 · 9 posts · 6 votes
    9y

    I think we're starting to go in circles so I'll just post one last time.

    First of all, Levi, thanks for posting the Buffett clip I was referring to, where he describes how great investing in SFH's is....and then says he doesn't do it because the management is problematic, which gets back to my very first post that a real estate business can be a great business, but that it is very different from passive investing. Sounds like you're definitely in the business and successful at it, so congratulations.

    Second, I'll just say that between my family and immediate circle of friends, there are several of us earning $100,000-$500,000/year.  Additionally, the clients in my business are generally $1M-$10M net worth individuals.  The investment habits that I see in my personal group and that group are the furthest thing you could imagine from trying to get 30-40% returns.  If you are a $300,000/year lawyer in the office preparing a report until 1AM for a Fortune 500 client the next day, the last thing you need is to hear that your tenant in Iowa needs to be evicted - it's just not worth it.

    Often times, they have large amounts in cash just because they haven't taken the time to figure out basic investing or haven't pulled the trigger. The main investments I see in my personal circle and professional life are a primary residence (usually with no mortgage), cash or cash equivalents, and assets related to their business (in the case of business owners). In the second position are usually 401(k)'s, IRA's, etc. I can't think of a client I've ever had that earned $50,000 but became a multimillionaire by earning 30% returns. Doesn't mean of course they're not out there, I just haven't come across them.

    But I HAVE seen a lot of people get rich by just picking one thing and doing it really well.  If that one thing happens to be real estate, then so be it.  But for everyone that makes $10,000,000 in real estate, there's going to be someone who made $10,000,000 by becoming partner in a large law firm or owning a car dealership.  I don't think that changes the fact that the PASSIVE return on capital in real estate is on average going to be around 7%.

    Best of luck and happy investing!

  • Joel OwensBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    9y

    I am sure others have larger networks but my client base has individuals worth between 1 and 100 million.

    These are not groups but individual people that are clients of mine that buy commercial properties.

    Yes owning a crap hole cheap house with a nightmare tenant is not passive. You can own a high quality retail strip center and generate double digit returns with national tenants with leases backed by thousands of locations.

    Additionally if an investor just wants to look at a spreadsheet then they can invest with my development projects for retail. I buy land and do small 2 to 4 unit national tenants or stand alone STNL properties.

    Stocks I do not like as you never know what trash the CEO's are hiding with the books. A stock could be worth 50 dollars today and worth toilet paper tomorrow.

    Look stock guys are not going to convince real estate investors that stocks are better. I love real estate. I don't care about stocks. Stock people you can do your thing and make millions and I will do it my way with commercial real estate.

  • Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2014 · 332 posts · 288 votes
    9y
    Rishi Ramlogan why wouldn't you just invest as an LP with a multifamily operator who has a fund or takes outside investments? That's passive and you get ownership of property and all it's benefits.
  • Real Estate Agent · Maple Valley, WA · Member since 2015 · 40 posts · 13 votes
    9y

    @Rishi Ramlogan today I deactivated my Facebook account, and chose to be more active on BP. The quality of discourse here makes it worth I like your analysis of the active involvement needed to make  real estate investment work. I own two rental and I think about the issues you bring up quite a bit.

    I manage my properties myself and have a full time job. I dont intend to pay down my loan anytime soon as I expect to always have tenants to pay this down.  One of my houses has required a lot of maintenance expenditure this year. I hope I will start to reap the returns of my investment by next year.

    Anyway I am going to spend a lot more time on BP to understand how the high rates of returns are achieved. Thanks for posting this, your points are worth mulling over.

    JOY

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