Turnkey sellers - why are expenses ignored?

Turnkey sellers - why are expenses ignored?

Investor · Cincinnati, OH · Member since 2010 · 1k+ posts · 928 votes

It seems that turnkey sellers are sprouting like mushrooms, not unexpected giving all the distressed inventory being snapped up.

Current practice by the largest turnkey sellers strikes me as questionable. Here are actual properties for sale on the sites of two of nation's largest turnkey companies, who enjoy preeminent reputations in the industry.

Company 1:
Sale Price: $109,900
Down Payment: $21,980
Closing Cost: $5,500
Total Investment: $27,480
Monthly Rent: $1,125
Monthly PITI: $725.68
Monthly Management: $90.00
Monthly Cash Flow: $309.32
ROI: 14%
Price Per Sq Ft: $73.00

Company 2:
Purchase Price= $89,150
Monthly Rent= $825
Taxes/Insurance -$135
Management Fee -$35
Monthly Expenses -$170
Monthly Income x12= $7,860
Yearly ROI= 8.82%

OK, if you've on BP longer than 30 seconds, you'd quickly see that there is no vacancy, maint/repairs, or capital reserves. Really?? How do they ignore these items, you ask? Well, in most cases they offer a Year 1 guaranty of net operating income, and teh possibility of purchasing a maint. plan for later years (though the cost of this plan is not included, and at any rate it's not going to replace your roof or your old furnace).

Plus, they point out that the properties are nicely rehabbed, in solid neighborhoods with high rental demand, tenants are rigorously screened, and to cap it off, the buyer may well sell the property at a big gain well before these repairs and capital expenses start hitting (remember, you presumably "captured" a boatload of equity when you purchased), at which time you can roll into another property.

At any rate, if you hold the property, the assumption is that Years 2-30 will experience none of these expenses.

Yes, these other items (vacancy, maint/repairs, capital reserve, evictions, etc.) are assumptions, but they are nonetheless highly predictable over time. We all know this, it's common sense.

So the question is: why do they do it? Does using higher expense assumptions depress the yield assumption to the point where no one will buy? Perhaps, especially if you're selling at relatively low gross yields anyway. But still, the net yield (assuming a more realistic 45-50% expenses/vacancy/capital) is considerably better than most alternatives.

Maybe it's this: they like you to lever up so that you can use your capital to buy multiple properties (meaning multiple sales and higher prop mgmt and maintenance residuals from tending to all these properties). However, this levering wouldn't make any economic sense for you if the true net return (cap rate) barely exceeded the borrowing rate. So it's vital that net returns be portrayed as materially higher than the borrowing rate.

It's usually the smaller, newer companies that are at least acknowledging these expenses, though they often understate them (vacancies at 5%, maint/repairs/capital at 5% is common).

I'd love to hear insights from others on this. It would seem to be in everyone's best interest in the industry to have reasonable standards for illustrating expected performance on rental real estate. No one wants, gulp, heavy handed government regulations to address all the disgruntled future investors/constituents...

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J ScottPro Member
Moderator
Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
14y
Originally posted by Curt Davis:
Regarding not seeing vacancy or maintenance, we do not ignore them and we tell all our clients whom we are working with about that being a reality.

But, by specifically stating a "Cash Flow" number that doesn't include these expenses, you ARE ignoring them.

To not ignore them, your cash flow statement should be, for example:

Cash Flow: $309 MINUS OPERATING EXPENSES

At very least, you should include a disclaimer to the effect of, "The Cash Flow and ROI numbers do not reflect the inclusion of operating expenses; actual cash flow and ROI will be lower." If you did that, I would agree you're not ignoring operating expenses.

You can argue semantics all day, but if you state a cash flow and ROI numbers that don't take into account operating expenses (and doesn't mention that you're not taking them into account), you are by-definition ignoring operating expenses.

I'm not saying you're acting unethically and I'm not saying that you're not running your company completely above board; but I am saying that -- assuming the OP's cut-and-paste of your deals is accurate -- your claim to not be ignoring expenses is inaccurate.

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Saint Louis, MO · Member since 2009 · 168 posts · 40 votes
    14y
    Originally posted by David Beard:
    It seems that turnkey sellers are sprouting like mushrooms, not unexpected giving all the distressed inventory being snapped up.

    Current practice by the largest turnkey sellers strikes me as questionable. Here are actual properties for sale on the sites of two of nation's largest turnkey companies, who enjoy preeminent reputations in the industry.

    Company 1:
    Sale Price: $109,900
    Down Payment: $21,980
    Closing Cost: $5,500
    Total Investment: $27,480
    Monthly Rent: $1,125
    Monthly PITI: $725.68
    Monthly Management: $90.00
    Monthly Cash Flow: $309.32
    ROI: 14%
    Price Per Sq Ft: $73.00

    Company 2:
    Purchase Price= $89,150
    Monthly Rent= $825
    Taxes/Insurance -$135
    Management Fee -$35
    Monthly Expenses -$170
    Monthly Income x12= $7,860
    Yearly ROI= 8.82%

    OK, if you've on BP longer than 30 seconds, you'd quickly see that there is no vacancy, maint/repairs, or capital reserves. Really?? How do they ignore these items, you ask? Well, in most cases they offer a Year 1 guaranty of net operating income, and teh possibility of purchasing a maint. plan for later years (though the cost of this plan is not included, and at any rate it's not going to replace your roof or your old furnace).

    Plus, they point out that the properties are nicely rehabbed, in solid neighborhoods with high rental demand, tenants are rigorously screened, and to cap it off, the buyer may well sell the property at a big gain well before these repairs and capital expenses start hitting (remember, you presumably "captured" a boatload of equity when you purchased), at which time you can roll into another property.

    At any rate, if you hold the property, the assumption is that Years 2-30 will experience none of these expenses.

    Yes, these other items (vacancy, maint/repairs, capital reserve, evictions, etc.) are assumptions, but they are nonetheless highly predictable over time. We all know this, it's common sense.

    So the question is: why do they do it? Does using higher expense assumptions depress the yield assumption to the point where no one will buy? Perhaps, especially if you're selling at relatively low gross yields anyway. But still, the net yield (assuming a more realistic 45-50% expenses/vacancy/capital) is considerably better than most alternatives.

    Maybe it's this: they like you to lever up so that you can use your capital to buy multiple properties (meaning multiple sales and higher prop mgmt and maintenance residuals from tending to all these properties). However, this levering wouldn't make any economic sense for you if the true net return (cap rate) barely exceeded the borrowing rate. So it's vital that net returns be portrayed as materially higher than the borrowing rate.

    It's usually the smaller, newer companies that are at least acknowledging these expenses, though they often understate them (vacancies at 5%, maint/repairs/capital at 5% is common).

    I'd love to hear insights from others on this. It would seem to be in everyone's best interest in the industry to have reasonable standards for illustrating expected performance on rental real estate. No one wants, gulp, heavy handed government regulations to address all the disgruntled future investors/constituents...

    $5,500 in closing costs?!?!

  • Curt DavisBusiness Member
    Flipper/Rehabber · Memphis, TN · Member since 2008 · 5k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    14y

    David,

    First I want to thank you for going to our site to use one of our properties for your case studies here. I will be happy to explain. Regarding not seeing vacancy or maintenance, we do not ignore them and we tell all our clients whom we are working with about that being a reality. You dont see them because most investors like to use their own figures for them so we leave that up for them to assume into their calculations. I have found that no matter what we provide for them they always have their own figures to run. We offer no rent guarantee whatsoever.
    We tell our clients its not if but when will will they experience maintenance or vacancy. You act like we are doing something unethical here but I can tell you that we operate above board. There is no way we have been able to sell and close over 200 transactions this year if we were doing something wrong. Closing costs for financing have been around $5,500, thats just want the cost has been. David, please let me know if you would like further clarification as how a real company operates, I would be happy to help :)

    Curt Davis - KAIZEN Realty538 Reviews
  • Investor · Cincinnati, OH · Member since 2010 · 1k+ posts · 928 votes
    14y

    Well, Curt, appreciate your standing right up. I was being discreet because it's foolish to single out any particular company, when this practice is followed almost universally. These were just illustrations.

    I by no means said that you operate unethically. However, I definitely do not think "making sales" is an indicator one way or the other.

    You state that you discuss these expenses with investors, at least in the abstract. However, you quote ROI's without them. Do investors even know what 'reasonable' assumptions to apply to your illustrations, and even how to do these additional calculations on their own, if they in fact want to derive more reasonable/conservative long-term ROIs.

    I apologize that I misunderstood about your providing a Year 1 rent guaranty. I received that information through another channel as a partial explanation for why companies omit these items from their ROI illustrations. Since there is no guaranty, I'm even further confused on the rationale for excluding.

    We all know that there is a psychology among investors that they want to feel like they made a good decision. So when the new roof/furnace, or other calamity occurs down the road, they will convince themselves that this is a "one-off" and in their own mind will not record a 'subtraction' from the return they are getting. After all, they tell themselves, they have building equity in the property, they've been getting annual income, etc., etc.

    I think your company is upstanding. I just don't think over the long term it's a good idea to ignore these expenses in investor illustrations.

    Not sure about your last comment about a "real company". Since it's easy to take things the wrong way when reading in a forum, I'll leave it alone.

  • Curt DavisBusiness Member
    Flipper/Rehabber · Memphis, TN · Member since 2008 · 5k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    14y

    David,

    When I estimate vac/repairs I like to be a little conservative so I usually calculate 10% vac and 10% maintenance. You make very valid points and they are good questions to bring up as many investors need to be aware of. I know of companies who do not calculate the closing cost into the ROI for investors. Dont mind my last comment, I meant nothing by it.

    Curt Davis - KAIZEN Realty538 Reviews
  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    14y
    Originally posted by Curt Davis:
    Regarding not seeing vacancy or maintenance, we do not ignore them and we tell all our clients whom we are working with about that being a reality.

    But, by specifically stating a "Cash Flow" number that doesn't include these expenses, you ARE ignoring them.

    To not ignore them, your cash flow statement should be, for example:

    Cash Flow: $309 MINUS OPERATING EXPENSES

    At very least, you should include a disclaimer to the effect of, "The Cash Flow and ROI numbers do not reflect the inclusion of operating expenses; actual cash flow and ROI will be lower." If you did that, I would agree you're not ignoring operating expenses.

    You can argue semantics all day, but if you state a cash flow and ROI numbers that don't take into account operating expenses (and doesn't mention that you're not taking them into account), you are by-definition ignoring operating expenses.

    I'm not saying you're acting unethically and I'm not saying that you're not running your company completely above board; but I am saying that -- assuming the OP's cut-and-paste of your deals is accurate -- your claim to not be ignoring expenses is inaccurate.

  • Investor · Cincinnati, OH · Member since 2010 · 1k+ posts · 928 votes
    14y

    Curt, the idea that some investor from Hong Kong has his own assumptions to run about vacancy rates in Memphis, and so you should stay out of it, when you guys are the EXPERTS on the Memphis market, makes no sense. And you're obviously selling to lots of mom and pop retail investors who know squat about appropriate vacancy rates and capex assumptions.

    I'm sure you've read the article in Personal Real Estate Investors magazine this month, where they denounce the practice of ignoring vacancies and expenses in pretty strong terms.

  • Alex CraigBusiness Member
    Real Estate Professional · Memphis, TN · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    14y

    I agree with you Curt. Post the known #'s and let the investor figure in their own vacancy and maintenance. I personally do not like to budget maintenance cost based on rent amount. A furnance cost roughly $1,000 installed no matter if the rent is $900 or $595. I have figured on a 30 year mortgage, the average cost per year is $750 in maintenance. This $750 over the lifespan will cover 2 furnances, 2 A/C units, 2 hot water tanks and 1 roof. Those cost today add up to roughly $10,000 or $333 a month. The other $417 per year is routine maintenance. I have 3 properties that became vacant this year for the first time in 4 years and 3 of the 4 rented out the following month. That is a vacancy rate of just above 2%. I would hate to walk away from a deal that nets 14%, but walk away b/c I am over inflating maintenace and vacancy. The renovation is very important; a good one will reduce maintenace cost and should be considered when making a turnkey purchase.

    There are BP members who would pick apart my theory, but managing over 150 properties, I see this $750 maintenace budget per year is pretty accurate (assuming the houses we put new mechanical systems in the house get at least 80% of the expected lifespan)

  • Chris ClothierBusiness Member
    Rental Property Investor · memphis, TN · Member since 2009 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    14y

    David -

    You make one assumption in your post and really in your follow ups and that is that turn-key companies ignore those costs. I'm sure some do, but most, the ones I mastermind with on a regular basis from around the country, do not.

    I like J. Scott's response and I like the disclaimer he offered about MINUS OPERATIONAL COSTS, but in the end, it all boils down to the buying process for the investor and what info. are they receiving from the company. A company is only ignoring those costs if they are telling investors that they will have no additional costs and that they can expect $X amount each month in cash flow guaranteed. Most companies are not selling property off of listings or spreadsheets. They are marketing pieces driving interest and leads - not sales pieces quoting bottom lines. If, as Curt stated, during the sales process they are communicating actual numbers they their typical investors achieve in Memphis, then the assumption that costs are being ignored would be inaccurate.

    Guarantees, IMO, are the real problems in this niche industry and what will ultimately get companies in trouble. We mastermind with about a dozen companies around the country and while each shows numbers a little differently, none uses spreadsheets to sell and none use guarantees in their business.

  • Alex CraigBusiness Member
    Real Estate Professional · Memphis, TN · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    14y

    I once saw a investor take a picture of a Section 8 check and the caption read "Infinite ROI." Too funny and naive.

  • Curt DavisBusiness Member
    Flipper/Rehabber · Memphis, TN · Member since 2008 · 5k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    14y

    To answer the question on how does someone from Hong Kong know how to calculate vacancy or maintenance in Memphis TN, believe it or not but our company works with lots of foreigners from Australia, New Zealand, Singapore and all these people use a different % for each. These people have done their homework and though I should be considered the local expert, they use their own calculations.

    I agree with the disclaimer, maybe we will look into adding that at the bottom of each post for properties.

    Curt Davis - KAIZEN Realty538 Reviews
  • MI · Member since 2011 · 228 posts · 75 votes
    14y

    JScott is correct. They specifically cite an ROI percentage without including estimates for vacancy and maintenance. That is misleading. They know full well the ROI cited is a fiction without including them.

    These guys will never mentioned anything about possibly needing to have to shell out 6k for a new roof only two years after buying one of their "rehabbed" turnkey rentals. Actually happened to us in Memphis. Put that in your spreadsheet and smoke it! :roll:

    For what it's worth. We've found it much more lucrative funding the acquisition, rehab, and sale of properties. Rather than trusting someone and buying rentals long distance.

    Hong Kong? Sheesh!

  • Alex CraigBusiness Member
    Real Estate Professional · Memphis, TN · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    14y

    Phillip--did you get a inspection report on the property you bought in Memphis? I recommend all our buyers get one. This avoids situations like the one you found yourself. It seems you have had bad experiences buying out of town properties, however, don't you take some responsibility for that? As you know, you can't always trust what people tell you.

  • MI · Member since 2011 · 228 posts · 75 votes
    14y

    Alex,

    Yes, there was an inspection report before rehab. So much for inspection reports. Having to replace a roof less than 2 years after spending 25k on a rehab is a bitter pill to swallow.

    You are right. You're right. You can't always believe what people tell you. In this case, it was Curt Davis, and I should not have believed him. But that has been covered in another thread. BTW, the contractor, KM in Memphis, seems to be out of biz as I can't find them anywhere.

    My only problems have been with "turnkey" hucksters in Memphis. You know my partner (and brother-in-law) Tom Cullen. He told me he bought a rehabbed turnkey from you that needed a new furnace in less than a year!

    New roof 2 years post rehab, new furnace 9 months post rehab. Memphis tenants who steal the appliance when they move out. Tenant with multiple evictions not screened yet placed in a property. These are the realities. Oh, and then the same turkey hawkers who sold you, give excuses, and question whether you are taking responsibility for your investing decision! The decision to buy from them, I guess!

    Getting back to the subj title. It doesn't surprise one bit that turnkey sellers list bogus ROI's that don't factor in minor things like vacancy (high in memphis) and maintenance expenses!

    PG

  • Specialist · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 852 votes
    14y

    LOL! It amazes me that an accredited investor would not see through that! These turn key deals will be coming back around at big discounts before too long! :mrgreen:

  • Curt DavisBusiness Member
    Flipper/Rehabber · Memphis, TN · Member since 2008 · 5k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    14y

    Just when you thought it could get any more crazy here comes Phil Gainey. Phil, I have never spoken to you on the phone or dont even really know who you are. Tom Cullen purchased his property from Investor Nation. I am not with that company, please stop referring that you were actually involved when you were not. Its so funny how your complaining here but then you and Tom contact my new company and our management team gets a lease purchase tenant for your Autumn Evening home. But feel free to try and keep throwing me under the bus for events that took place 2.5 yrs ago. Time for you ( and Tom ) to take responsibility for your actions. You complain about repairs, you and Tom should then be purchasing retail homes of only brand new ones if you are going to complain when the light bulb burns out. I stepped out on this forum knowing I would take a little heat but from you is completely disrespectful and you can hide behind this forum all you like. Again, you keep complaining about me but you and Tom are actually doing business with my company right now so that is kind of an oxy moron thing for you to bash me, dont you think?

    Curt Davis - KAIZEN Realty538 Reviews
  • Joel OwensBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    14y

    Don't know the company but why don't all these turn key investors who bought come here and post what expenses have been since purchasing???

    That would be a real eye opener.

    I think at best what is painted is a (BEST CASE SCENARIO) that hardly ever happens.This is done to get the prospect excited and wanting to buy.

    It's nothing but marketing at it's purest form.I wonder with turn key investments how many are newer investors and how many are seasoned investors??

    I don't see seasoned investors buying these types of properties for the most part.So then in my mind these newer investors are buying properties that have minimal returns because they do not have the experience to properly analyze a purchase price.

    If you are buying TURN KEY you are paying for it.If you want some easy don't expect to get rich off of it.These new investors in my opinion would be better off handing the money over to a seasoned investor who will purchase properly and give them the returns wanted WITHOUT the headache of land lording or overpaying.

    Again I have never used a turn key company.I just know based on many accounts of others buying through them that many times it does not work in their favor.

    I have yet to see an independant third party that bought post everywhere that they are cash flowing great and would use turn key again.Instead it's nightmare after nightmare.

    If I have to deal with a properties nightmares I will do the work and reap ALL the forced equity I wring out of it.Not overpay for lipstick and then be fixing problem after problem.

    Before you buy in that area go to the eviction court and see how many cases are processing a month?How backed up is the courts from serving the writ??

    How much time is the judge on average giving the tenants to get out??

    On the turn key numbers are they inflating rents?? Example if market for a 3 bed is 800 - 900 are they basing on 910. (painting a rosy picture again).

    I just don't want people starting their investing career to get snookered into a marginal deal that sucks them dry and crushed their real estate investing dreams.Meanwhile a turn key company has burned and churned another one.

    It reminds me of new real estate agents entering the business and getting bled dry from businesses selling them stuff the first year until they have no money left.

    If you are a turn key company then I would have buyers that have purchased and have had great results on my website.Even their name and number if possible.

  • Alex CraigBusiness Member
    Real Estate Professional · Memphis, TN · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    14y

    Phillip--we didn't sell Tom a turnkey. He bought it "as is" for $39,000 and I think we put $7,000 into the property. We told him exactly what we were doing to it. We never advertised it was "turnkey". We then rented it for $925 a month and managed it for free for 1 year. He collected 11 months rent minus the furnance. I believe he was into this property around $46,000 or $47,000. With 11 months rent (and I am guessing $1,500 in expenses) his ROI for the 11 months it rented was 15% (these #'s are just esimtates, I have exact #'s on my Property Management software that I could pull if you like). Then I sold it for him at $55,000 on a owner financing note where I believe he got $10,000 down. So from the time he bought December 09 and sold to June 11 he collected around $10,000 in rent. I am guessing $1,500 in expenses. I am guessing $1,700 in taxes and insurance, plus a profit of around $8,000 on the sale, plus getting $10,000 down on that sale and interest rate around 8%.

    Are you seriously complaining about that? You should be calling me to put you in deals where you make $8,000 profit after holding for 15 months, along with collecting a respectable 14% ROI during the time it was rented AND collecting interest on the payment.

    Since Curt had his name thrown under the bus, I will come to his defense. I don't know much about their operation, but you don't sell and manage as many properties as they do without having a track record of success.

  • Chris ClothierBusiness Member
    Rental Property Investor · memphis, TN · Member since 2009 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    14y

    Joel -

    I copied just a few of your points on here and I will try to keep it brief (that's hard for me to do)!

    Turn-Key is a generic term that is WAY OVER-USED today and a lot of very good companies are working hard to distance themselves from what this niche has become. The term itself is a marketing term to tell a buyer that everything is done for them. How well is another story.

    Originally posted by Joel Owens:

    I think at best what is painted is a (BEST CASE SCENARIO) that hardly ever happens.This is done to get the prospect excited and wanting to buy.

    REPLY FROM ME:
    The best companies - in any industry - do not use this type of marketing. They may choose the best story to tell, but simply painting best case scenarios is not the norm. That being said, I am sure, as I have seen it, that there are companies that do this to attract buyers.

    It's nothing but marketing at it's purest form.I wonder with turn key investments how many are newer investors and how many are seasoned investors??

    REPLY FROM ME:
    My 3 biggest lead sources are fee based financial planners whose clients are looking for predictable returns, existing clients and experienced active investors who are looking for passive long term investments. They absolutely are experienced and know exactly how to calculate their numbers. They are not attracted to blinking lights yelling cash flow, but are attracted to the idea of a passive income to supplement their active incomes.

    I don't see seasoned investors buying these types of properties for the most part.So then in my mind these newer investors are buying properties that have minimal returns because they do not have the experience to properly analyze a purchase price.

    REPLY FROM ME:
    The advice I personally give investors is that my company is not right for everyone. There are plenty of other operators even here in Memphis that are better fits for some investors. Once an investor has researched a city, their next step is to meet the person you are going to do business with in person. See the neighborhoods and see them again. Pay close attention to the details - open furnace closets, inspect the roof, look at the finishes and see if what you are looking at jives with what you are hearing.

    If you are buying TURN KEY you are paying for it.If you want some easy don't expect to get rich off of it.

    REPLY FROM ME:
    Investors already understand that there is a premium for the services they are receiving. They have to make the determination of whether that premium makes sense or not. As far as getting rich, if that is what an investor is after and wants to do it quick, that is the first red flag that this investor is not right for my company.

    These new investors in my opinion would be better off handing the money over to a seasoned investor who will purchase properly and give them the returns wanted WITHOUT the headache of land lording or overpaying.

    REPLY FROM ME:
    This is exactly how some of the best passive investment companies in the country started!! They were experienced investors and experienced business people. They started companies to serve a need - to serve a segment of the population that wanted to invest but wanted to do it completely passive.

    Again I have never used a turn key company.I just know based on many accounts of others buying through them that many times it does not work in their favor.

    REPLY FROM ME:
    Horror stories are what are always told and I know for fact they happen, but not all are the fault of the company. I get calls in my office everyday from investors wanting my help on a property they bought from someone who promised the moon and delivered cheese. Usually they are buying sight unseen from someone I've never even heard of. I have no idea if the statement that most turn-key companies are bad is correct, but there are plenty that give everyone a bad name. And then there are plenty of investors who make mistakes when investing from afar and there are lots of stories about them as well.

    I just don't want people starting their investing career to get snookered into a marginal deal that sucks them dry and crushed their real estate investing dreams.Meanwhile a turn key company has burned and churned another one.

    REPLY FROM ME:
    Again, I don't know any companies that churn and burn, but I know they do exist. At my company, we get between 200 & 300 inquires a month about getting stated and end up having between 8 & 13 actually fit with our company. Investors buy between 25-30 properties a month with us and most are purchasing 1 at a time. So we have between 12 & 17 existing clients buying property number 2,3,4 all the way up to 4 investors who have over 20 properties with us. So we say no to more investors than we say yes to and we are absolutely looking for the type of investor that is going to have solid long-term success.

    If you are a turn key company then I would have buyers that have purchased and have had great results on my website.Even their name and number if possible.

    REPLY FROM ME:
    Again, some of the best companies in the country that i have had the pleasure to get to know absolutely do this. Their clients names and locations are listed and all of their contact information is gladly given to anyone asking.

    The original start of this post was about numbers. Spreadsheets are not and absolutely should not be used to sell properties. In the end, the success of a company will be judged by how well they are communicating with their prospective and current clients and how honest they are being about their process and returns. Their track record is what is most important, not someone who doesn't like the way they market and lumps everyone into one category.

    We all know it happens, but that is not the way the best companies operate. Buyers still react to investment in real estate the same way they react to everything else...they buy from people they like, that they trust and that they respect. And for anyone who purchases in any other way - without doing proper due-diligence and spending time getting to know who you are dealing with - then that is on both the company and the investor.

    Wow - that was a long post!

  • Joel OwensBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    14y

    Hey Chris I like your site is that a wordpress site or Joomla??

    I looked at the testimonials.Some of the written ones were back from 2006 and some from 2009.In the videos I clicked I didn't hear a date when properties were purchased.

    Are there recent testimonials from 2011 on there??

  • MI · Member since 2011 · 228 posts · 75 votes
    14y

    Joel,

    You hit the nail right on the head.

    Alex,

    Okay, from what he told me, you sold him a house, advertised a "life style rehab" of it, and placed a tenant into it. Sounds like "turnkey" to me. Whether you use the word of not.

    Did you tell him the furnace was on it's last legs and will probably only last one winter? I can ask him. He also said he had $1400 in plumbing and HVAC repairs. The first 11 months after a rehab?

    I'm not complaining. Only point, like Joel alluded to, is that folks selling these out of state RE investment opportunities do not really paint a realistic picture. Here's what I've learned:

    1. Don't invest in properties out of your local area.

    2. If you must, go there with a contractor on your "team", who you know and trust (preferably the sales person doesn't even know). Go over every nook and cranny of the property with them. Kind of like taking a trusted auto mechanic with you to the used car lot.

    3. Talk, talk, talk to other investors in that area. Find out what the tenants are like. What's that you say? Tenants are so bad there you no longer provide appliances cuz they are likely to steal them? YIKES! They pretty much all have judgements against them? That's why darn near half the population there rents even though house prices are cheap? Hmm.

    4. Want cash flow? Buy notes, make hard money or private loans...etc. Want to make money in RE? Fund the guys selling to the out of state investors. Let them deal with tenants, property managers, and the roofs and furnaces.

    PG

  • Chris ClothierBusiness Member
    Rental Property Investor · memphis, TN · Member since 2009 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    14y

    Absolutely there are - give me about 2 weeks and our new site will be up not only with testimonials going back 5 years, but updated from those investors who are still with us today as well as testimonials from this year. Joel, if you wanted to talk to any testimonials newer or old, I would be happy to give you there numbers. I know you're not going to buy, but it's nice to hear from people with real results and real numbers.

    I think your just being nice on the site because I know it is outdated! that's why we are updating it. But, what you will notice is that we are really trying to shift marketing from numbers and returns to service, reliability and passive investing. Investors shouldn't buy anyway if the return is not there.

  • Investor · Cincinnati, OH · Member since 2010 · 1k+ posts · 928 votes
    14y

    One thing that strikes me as interesting. When commercial multifamily is being sold to presumably sophisticated investors, brokers prepare pro-formas, as we all know. The large companies like M&M and CBRE, in my experience, ALWAYS include estimates for vacancies, capital reserves (usually 200-400/unit/yr), and maint/repairs. So this is the convention followed for marketing material to 'sophisticated' buyers. These buyers would be justifiably upset if these expenses were ignored in the pro-formas.

    For turnkey companies selling SFRs to retail investors (a group that is presumptively less sophisticated and requiring greater fiduciary care and education), these items are all ignored in the illustrations.

    Now I have no doubt that you DO in fact discuss these things with your prospective clients, at some stage of the sales process. As leaders in your industry, I would think you'd want to set the standard, be transparent, and use some reasonable assumptions that firms would voluntarily adhere to, perhaps 5-7% for vacancies/leasing costs, 5% for maint/repairs, and 5% for capital reserves (this is actually less than the 20% that Curt states he personally uses). I can't understand why I see some small companies doing this, but none of the larger outfits. I think I would have expected the opposite.

    I really don't have an ax to grind, I have just been looking at RE business models and am trying to get educated. I appreciate you Memphis guys engaging on the topic.

  • Curt DavisBusiness Member
    Flipper/Rehabber · Memphis, TN · Member since 2008 · 5k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    14y

    David,

    No problem, glad to assist you in your case study. Trying to answer your question on why smaller companies can do this as opposed to larger companies, my only theory would be that smaller companies can sell their property cheaper then larger companies so the smaller companies returns look better. Thats the only thing I can come up with.

    Curt Davis - KAIZEN Realty538 Reviews
  • Chris ClothierBusiness Member
    Rental Property Investor · memphis, TN · Member since 2009 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    14y

    David - You do a hell of a job stirring debate!

    2 things -

    This is a debate that we talk about in our Mastermind and I will tell you the answers we get from smaller companies. I was intrigued by your first sentence and decided to search the commercial property listings of the largest real estate company here in Memphis and one of the largest in the country, Crye Lieke to test your theory.

    1. The smaller companies all say the same things. They ARE trying to sell their properties directly from their site or directly from their postings. They do not have the man power or the desire to build long term relationships. They would like to sell more properties, but they out-source most of the services including property management. Their business model is to stay small and keep it all. And I respect that. So they try do go more in depth on their sites and on their materials and investors have access to all of that without ever talking to someone at the company. If an investor called them today out of the blue wanting to buy something they would sell it. They give the info they know, they estimate the rest and believe its up to the buyer to decide from there.

    I don't like that style of business...but who cares? I am an adviser not in the mastermind to make them do things differently.

    The bigger companies all are trying to give less info. on the front end to encourage conversation with buyers to help select the clients that are going to work best. It is a luxury in business to know your target client and be able to select who you are going to do business with. There is one company that takes it to the extreme and has removed all sample houses on their site and makes little to any reference to cash flow because they want clients that only focus on the ease of doing business.

    With all of these companies, the bottom line and expected returns all come in conversations long after the first one and buyers cannot simply call up and say I'll take what you have. They must go through a vetting process. And that process absolutely includes the expected return, the level of risk and the fact that no one can predict how any property will perform compared to another. In other words, there is risk and it is our job to inform the buyer and try to mitigate as much of that risk as possible.

    2. I searched for commercial properties for sale and have yet to find a property with any vacancy, maintenance or capital reserves estimated on their listings. I even searched for multi-family and not a word about these obvious costs that will come into play for the property. These are listings with a real estate company and the agents have the entire alphabet soup of licenses from MMDC, CCIM, ABR & CRS.

    What they did list were the hard costs. The numbers that cannot be disputed - location, legal description, taxes, quoted insurance costs, construction type, occupation status and current rent. That's it. They don't get into assumptive numbers even if they are highly predictable. That is up to the buyer and his team to determine their numbers and I am quite sure that the listing company can help them determine those numbers if they ask. But then again, they may not. They may tell the buyer to due proper due diligence before buying.

    -----

    I think this is a non-existent issue for most of this niche business. I don't read articles anymore written by people that are not in the business and who try to make up non-existent issues. It's the same as buying a course from a Guru who has done one deal. It's like taking financial advice from a planner straight out of college, fresh from his test and earning less than 20% of your income. It doesn't make sense.

    I still think a much, much larger issue in this niche are buyers who purchase properties based on guarantees and not understanding that most guarantees are in place to insure an actual 1st year return and they disappear in year 2 and so does the return. I'm in the business and get to meet and work with companies like mine around the country and I can promise you guarantees are a much bigger issue.

  • Joel OwensBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    14y

    "I still think a much, much larger issue in this niche are buyers who purchase properties based on guarantees and not understanding that most guarantees are in place to insure an actual 1st year return and they disappear in year 2 and so does the return."

    So then a "unique selling proposition" would be for you to offer 2 years and beat the industry standard right?? Maybe you already do that which is why you sell so many properties.

    Chris I would not buy a property you are correct.Not because I do not think you or your company is credible.It is because I live in Georgia and not California or New York etc. and deals are plentiful here especially since I am a commercial broker with a vast network of property owners to find deals.

    So I can spend years in my own back yard cultivating awesome returns but I understand why buyers in other areas where margins are super low would look to other states for yield margins.

    Right now I am going after more apartments in my area and really hyper focusing on that.I do not want to own houses spread out all over the place.It is just not my investment niche I like or am comfortable with.

    I do think your site looks credible and look forward to seeing the new site.

    All the best.

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