Anyone moving their investments to Bitcoin?
Rental Property Investor · Tampa, FL · Member since 2019 · 128 posts · 166 votes
Anyone moving their investments to Bitcoin?
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Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes
6yI prefer Stanley Nickels and Schrute Bucks
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- Rental Property Investor · Tampa, FL · Member since 2019 · 128 posts · 166 votes5y
Thanks @Jon McCarron - I heard that Podcast with Stig. I got a lot of insight out of it.
@Nathan Gesner - My purpose in starting this thread 7 months ago was based the changes occurring at the time due to COVID. Real Estate expert Ken McElroy was advising to wait to buy Real Estate, and I wanted to know what other Real Estate investors were considering as places to put their money if Real Estate was really going to go into a down cycle. (Obviously that didn't happen). Now, 7 months later, Bitcoin is funding my real estate investments, so (for me) the thread is highly relevant to real estate investing. What I didn't know at the time that I started this thread was that the opinions about BTC run strong both ways: the bulls are excited, and the bears assert their positions about how foolish it is. If my comments have come across as insulting, I apologize -- not my intent. I enjoy a healthy debate and learned a lot from this thread 7 months ago and continue to learn from it today!
- Rental Property Investor · Houston, TX · Member since 2014 · 139 posts · 140 votes5y
@Greg Moore yes BTC and ETH. I studied it for quite some time and decided to jump in. A pullback is expected soon though which at that time will add to my position.
Just another was of diversifying :)
- Rental Property Investor · Tampa, FL · Member since 2019 · 128 posts · 166 votes5y
@Charlie Chapman if you kept your BTC from the time of your post until now, congrats on creating $100k of profit to invest as you see fit!
@Greg Moore Can you snort a line of coke through a bitcoin yet? I didn't think so. Mic drop, cash wins.
- 5yHadley FisherBusiness MemberRental Property Investor · Boca Raton · Member since 2016 · 17 posts · 28 votes
@Steve K.
@Steve K.
I would rather goto Vegas and bet on the craps or the slots .
If I lose at least my hotel room and food and maybe pay for my plane ride home . I can’t say anymore about that my wife reads the BP forum too haha .
I am joking but I would rather put money in real estate . I just don’t understand the whole Bitcoin thing and I am not here to insult anyone . If it’s made some money more power to them . I got real estate in my blood or more like concrete. Haha
Real Estate builds Generation wealth if done right !
Location location location! !
- Rental Property Investor · Nashville, TN · Member since 2018 · 9 posts · 15 votes5y
@Greg Moore just seeing this thread and enjoying the responses. I had heard stories about Bitcoin for yrs, but never took the time to understand it. The first time you come across it, it sounds kinda crazy. But about a year ago I started researching it more, read some books and subscribed to some podcasts, and went through the process of setting up accounts with exchanges and buying some cold storage wallets really to just gain an understanding of how it works. As I learned more about what a halving was, the limited amount to be produced, and how many are thought to be gone for ever (lost on hard drives of early buyers as computers were discarded), the more I’ve felt comfortable with it. As for a percentage, I try and keep a certain percentage in RE, PM’s, Stocks, Infinite Banking Life Ins, and I’ve added Bitcoin to my mix. Everything is in a bubble right now, but Bitcoin has the potential for the biggest gain, as well as the biggest drops, so I’m looking at my account as two part, one portion being a long term play of buy and hold, and another portion to trade on highs and dips. It’s a similar concept to gold-which I’m a fan of, but it’s way easier to move in and out of positions than physical metals. The fact that the majority of the population would not know how to buy it if you offered them a million dollars if they could buy one Bitcoin in 30 minutes makes me believe that even though it’s had a big run up in 2017 and this yr, there is still huge potential. I buy through a couple of exchanges, but recently have been using SwanBitcoin as you can set up automatic withdrawals on weekly or monthly purchases for dollar cost averaging. My goal is to have 8-10% as a percentage. RE is still my largest % holding. But if right now someone asked me if I could have $10k of free $ to put in stocks, gold, or Bitcoin, I’d put it in Bitcoin.
- Rental Property Investor · Tampa, FL · Member since 2019 · 128 posts · 166 votes5y
@Sterling Wyatt great response Sterling. I’m with you on the importance of understanding the basics. The steps you described mirror the steps I’ve taken the past 7-8 months since I jumped in. Fidelity Investments advised 5% allocation. I’m probably more comfortable with low single digits. The only challenge I’ve been running into is the cyrptos grow so darn fast the percentage keeps becoming a bigger piece of my portfolio than I want it to be. That’s when I move some out and into RE. I’ve grown to like this cycle of “free capital!”
- Real Estate Agent · New York City · Member since 2020 · 819 posts · 641 votes5y
Bitcoin, much like gold and unlike real estate, has no yield. It produces nothing.
There is the store of wealth argument. Folks say the supply is limited. But is it? The supply of Bitcoin might be, but not the supply of total crypto currencies. Moreover, exchanges have gotten hacked in the past.
Gold by comparison is truly supply constrained and has been accepted as a medium of exchange for centuries. Bitcoin is nothing more than "internet points"
They say it is a hedge against the USD, but the USD has the world's greatest military behind it. Bitcoin does not. And if we reach such a dire circumstance where this is no longer the case, I think we will all have bigger problems.
But hey! I could be wrong!
- Member since 2020 · 20 posts · 28 votes5y
@Mario Garcia that would've been great saying that its worth around 19k now
- Investor · San Diego · Member since 2020 · 22 posts · 31 votes5y
@Troy Weaver that would have been Epic!!
- 5yDan DiFilippoBusiness MemberReal Estate Broker · Fayetteville, NC · Member since 2020 · 251 posts · 244 votes
Amazed to see some seriously uninformed people on parade here.
But crypto has always been polarizing.
I encourage people, by the way, to bother to learn about crypto more broadly. Rather than just Bitcoin. If you don't understand the primary differences between Bitcoin, Ethereum, and Ripple, your opinion on Bitcoin is evidently not worth much.
It was mentioned above that Bitcoin should be regarded as an option and that's exactly correct. Crypto currencies have the opportunity to be the perfect money. Truly finite supply, proof of work/stake, perfectly liquid. It's had two episodes of 10x'ing and it still hasn't achieved adoption by the RIA's. It's still an asset that most people only own because they want to. Not because they feel they *need* to.
It could go to 0. It could go to $1MM. On that basis, you decide what the proper allocation is for you. But there isn't really much else in the market with that much asymmetry. And give consideration to Ripple, Ethereum, Litecoin, Tezos, Compound.
- Real Estate Agent · Orlando, FL · Member since 2015 · 126 posts · 74 votes5y
There are a lot of people with VERY loud opinions one way or the other, but I personally don't see crypto going away. I have noticed larger institutional investors getting into the space recently. The USD may be seen as problematic long term because of monetary and fiscal policies driving inflation. Asset prices in general are quite high. Traditionally if you want to hedge against inflation, RE is a great choice. BUT, RE cap rates are remain compressed despite being in arguably a major recession, I worry about their sustainability long term especially when the interest rate environment changes. Stocks haven't performed as well in the last 20 years as they have historically from 1950-2000 and the valuations especially on newer companies is eye watering. IPOs are coming to market at 50B rather than 1-2B, so there is little money left to be made for the average investor unlike how it was in the past when companies like Amazon and Microsoft went public. Bond yields are non-existent. What is there left? The best performing part of my small portfolio over the last few years has been real estate, crypto and collectibles. Other than some small acquisitions in the collectibles space there really isn't anything I've been excited enough lately to allocate away from cash into. So for now I am just waiting and watching.
However, I will say that DeFi is changing the game in crypto. It used to be that Bitcoin and other Cryptos couldn't generate yield. But now there is an ecosystem of lending and staking that definitely can generate yield, @Alexander Szikla, which will make it a more attractive investment for long term allocation. If I was putting any more money into crypto (and for the record I'm not currently planning on it) it would be focused in yield producing crypto assets.
"Bitcoin, much like gold and unlike real estate, has no yield. It produces nothing."
Incorrect. Unlike a non dividend paying stock, there are platforms, such as BlockFi, that will pay you interest, which far exceeds any bond or bank account at the moment. They will also lend to you based on your BTC collateral. In my case, the interest on my holding would outperform a 1% ,2%, or 3% rule. I could also take a loan and buy multiple properties. Do what you want, seems like people are shut off, and uninformed when they chime in against it.
Buffett said the same about gold, and this year, his company bought mining stocks. He was also wrong about IBM, Google, and Amazon. He has admitted that he doesn't understand tech. Anything can happen but I won't be surprised when/if BH buys Bitcoin.
Not trying to change anyone's mind, but I cant help myself when it comes to countering weak arguments.
While I am glad I bought and held - and it has outperformed my real estate in the US's hottest markets. But now, I am listening to the smartest guys and girls in the room, Bill Miller, Raoul Pal, Dalio, Druckenmiller, Cathie Wood, the list is growing. I think it's funny when people rush in to shut it down when they dont have the facts straight.
As I said over the years, it's going to 0 or 1 million. And the chances of it going to 0 are closing.
Let's see what happens
- Rental Property Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2020 · 5 posts · 7 votes5y
@Greg Moore I’ve been beginning to research more on Bitcoin myself. I’m going to go ahead and recommend a few resources & folks who have been very informative in understanding this volatile asset.
The Investors Podcast does a weekly Bitcoin-based podcast that I really recommend, this particular episode is pretty academic on the common misconceptions of BTC:
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/we-study-billionaires-the-investors-podcast-network/id928933489?i=1000500156216
If you haven’t heard of Anthony Pompliano, he has a lot of interviews and information of BTC. To me, he is like the frontman of it.
I’ll attach a BITCOIN 101 podcast featuring him here:
https://youtu.be/ALWQ5GAkF54
As far as asset allocation you hear get different numbers from everyone, obviously really comes down to your risk tolerance. I like the way Anthony Pompliano explains it with 5%; that way if it goes up you’ll make a good return and if it goes to 0 you won’t have lost a ton of money.
Lastly, if you do plan on buying even 1 single Bitcoin I would research Hard Wallets. You plug them into your computer like an external hard-drive and transfer the Bitcoin from your purchasing platform to this wallet. Once you have it on your hard-wallet, as far as i know, that coin is untouchable security-wise. I would be sure to make sure the platform ALLOWS you to transfer them to your hard wallet before you do because Robinhood for example doesn’t allow you to.
- Rental Property Investor · Tampa, FL · Member since 2019 · 128 posts · 166 votes5y
@Alexander Szikla only time will tell. I could argue even the case for gold is relative. Elon Musk has his eye on a meteor with confirmed gold reserves sufficient to make every human being on earth a billionaire. That would wipe out the “gold is limited” story for centuries. And if anyone in our lifetime can pull it off, it’s Elon! Then again, maybe his exploration of the meteor might throw it off its orbit and cause it to crash into Earth and wipe out my real estate. Only time will tell.
- Rental Property Investor · Tampa, FL · Member since 2019 · 128 posts · 166 votes5y
@Taylor Austin thanks for sharing these resources. I have been following Anthony Pompliano as part of my research into BTC, Blockchain, and other cryptos. His discussion with Kiyosaki was great. Thanks again for weighing in on this thread.
- Rental Property Investor · Closter, NJ · Member since 2015 · 884 posts · 722 votes5y
I "invested" $500 in Bitcoin a few years ago. Like the stock market, it goes up and it goes down. I'll stick with investment real estate.
- Member since 2020 · 22 posts · 7 votes5y
I love the idea of crypto but am weary of the underlying asset that drives its value, which as far as I can tell is nothing really. When I buy a stock investing in the business underneath. With RE I'm buying the land, building, and cash flow/appreciation with it. I can appreciate the block chain tech and can see value in that but that's not what I'm buying into when I'm buying BTC is it? What is the underlying asset that is giving BTC its value?
- Investor · UT · Member since 2020 · 35 posts · 16 votes5y
@Greg Moore nope. Unless u know how bit coin works.
- Rental Property Investor · Tampa, FL · Member since 2019 · 128 posts · 166 votes5y
@Bryant Clark I'm a neophyte on cyrpto so I'm not qualified to answer your question. But in my neophyte view, the answer to your question is possession of something that there is higher demand for than there is supply.
If we can agree that 'knowledge' is an asset (an intangible asset) then there may be some common ground in the view that those with unique knowledge that is in low supply but high demand get paid more for their knowledge than those with common knowledge that can be obtained anywhere or from anyone for free. Similarly, the moment Elon confirms he has successfully tapped the enormous supply of gold in the meteor and will be shipping it by the rocket ship back to Earth, the supply of gold will far outweigh the demand and the price per Troy ounce will drop. And the moment the US declares BTC illegal, or China establishes a global digital currency that replaces BTC as the new digital currency to hold, the BTC will plummet and demand evaporates. And the moment someone discovers toxic chemicals in the ground on a property you own the value will plummet b/c no one will want it. Both tangible and intangible assets are slaves to supply and demand, and we homo sapiens seem to assign value to things that are in low supply and high demand regardless of tangibility.
- Rental Property Investor · Sylvania, OH · Member since 2019 · 11 posts · 7 votes5y
@Greg Moore
I am a real estate investor, business owner and bitcoin holder.
Simply put bitcoin is a store of value considered digital gold. I did considerable research before finally pulling the trigger earlier this year.
We are still in early adoption so many believe it still has a lot of room to run so if you are looking at it as a long term buy and hold asset I believe it will benefit ones portfolio. Typical range I have read is 1 to 10% of your portfolio depending on your risk tolerance.
You can purchase from any number of service providers such as Coinbase but I would store any bitcoin in cold storage such as a Trezor. You can also purchase through Kingdom Trust which provides cold storage and some insurance in the event of a loss.
Bitcoin is still considered speculative but much less so today than 10 years ago. The increased adoption by companies is telling and is expected to increase over time.
Concerns over the continued printing of money, erosion of the dollar and our national debt are all accelerating adoption.
I hope this helps anyone that might be interested.
- Contractor · Tulsa, OK · Member since 2019 · 12 posts · 4 votes5y
@Eric Carr
Question ? This may seem like a dumb question because I don't know much at all about investing in stock, let alone bit coin. But, what is the difference between bit coin and the dollar ? Can you invest in the dollar ? If so, how can bit coin give such great returns, when they are both currencies ?
One major huge difference between Bitcoin and the USD, or ANY FIAT, is that Bitcoin's supply is finite and the daily supply is limited. Only a certain amount of BTC will exist, around the year 2164 will see the last mined BTC, and only a set amount can be mined per day, which also "halves" every 4 years. Ant inflationary.
FIAT, as we are seeing right now, can be printed into infinity.
Trust, supply, demand. Are three key terms, however, there is also the functionality. As @Bryant Clark mentioned above, he understands stocks and RE because of the underlying value. RE will always be valuable because people will always need a place to live. There are valuable companies adding service to the world; however, stock prices don't always reflect value, but rather peoples emotions. Even still, Bryants point still stands.
Bitcoin's functional use is pretty amazing. One very simple example: If you wanted to send money to someone in France, you might go to a bank or Western Union, fill out some paper, pay a fee, wait a week. With BTC, you OWN your money. You can send that to anyone in the world in a matter of minutes, without leaving your house, and it might cost you pennies. This is just ONE aspect of the convenience it adds. Another point - try going to your bank and withdrawing $10k, and get ready for the interview process. Look at the breakdown of fractional reserve banking and inflation and all the reasons BTC was created. Also remember that BTC has no owner, can't be controlled, is anonymous, and it is digital.
The thing that makes gold and FIAT valuable is simply belief, trust. Other than that, no one is buying coffee with gold or hauling it across country to buy RE. Dollars are dirty pieces of paper that cost a few cents to print.
Central bank digital currencies are coming, which will also be unlimited - no different than the numbers on the screen for your bank balance - that cash isn't actually sitting in a bank with your name on it. However, the ledger will be centrally controlled by your government. They will see every penny you make and spend. How does that sound to you guys?
I remember a time when people hated MP3's because they would have rather drove to the record store to buy the CD, that will take up room in their house, because they wanted the physical disc and the artwork. People did the same with their physical photo books. Now it is all digital. Does it really exist since one cant touch them anymore?
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