Anyone else feel like the forums are losing value?
Peter TverdovBusiness Member
Developer Ā· New Brunswick, NJ Ā· Member since 2015 Ā· 1k+ posts Ā· 2k+ votesAnyone else feel like the forums are losing value?
Most Popular Reply
Dallas, TX Ā· Member since 2019 Ā· 32 posts Ā· 202 votes
6ySo this is going to sound odd. You've become one of the 'village elders' here on BP based on the fact that you've seen and heard most of what's been posted; and you've posted over 1200 times yourself, so you've obviously been party to some great conversations.
Based on my experience on other forums (for wildly differing subjects than this) my transition into the known voice position put me in the same situation, I felt like I wasn't getting anything out of the forum anymore... but the reality was that I was the one now putting back into the forum what I had taken out earlier. It was my obligation to go back through and help all the people who were 'new' figure it all out; and faster than I did because now I had the forum information and ability to easily pinpoint valuable discussions for others.
You may not be getting much out of BP, but I can assure you that others are probably getting much out of you. So please don't leave or get discouraged... it's all part of the cycle!
\
144 Replies
- Erie, PA Ā· Member since 2018 Ā· 413 posts Ā· 348 votes6y
So...I know Ive asked some dumb questions and was as new as a newbie can be. I really appreciate the information and patience the forums offered.
My only 2 gripes (and I hope its is seen as constructive and not just complaining) are 1. So many of the eviction moratorium posts were banished. I get they got political. But, I was getting real value from them if you overlooked the politics of it. That was and is a topic that fascinates me, worries me a bit, factors into my own thought process. While I see BP POV on those threads, I wish they werent gonzo so fast due to they were and are really relevant to a lot of ppl here.
The other (hopefully constructive) gripe is stop from click-baity titles, spammy and articles on the blog. Some are reallllly bad and not what BP should be-esp with newbies. I get putting out content, but just adding junk doesnt bring much value to the brand.
- Philadelphia, PA Ā· Member since 2017 Ā· 824 posts Ā· 1k+ votes6y
Hmm -- I think you get what you give. When I started out the forums were huge for me. Sure, I probably asked a ton of stupid questions, but for me it was the best way to learn and start networking with people.
I'm only marginally improved from that point, but I have a few doors under my belt, still asking stupid questions, but also have some experience now that I could lend to others. And, I've met more people in the last 6-12 months than I have in 2 years before that because my knowledge, experience, and confidence is growing in this field.
So yes, maybe its more so for newbies, but I was (and still am in many ways) a newbie who seeks and finds value from the forums, as well as being able to provide some of my immediate lessons learned. One thing I tell almost every new investor, on virtually any forum topic they start or participate in, is to prepare your first property beyond the down payment and closing costs...to include 5k-10k in "backup funds" for any deferred maintenance or CAPEX you aren't acutely aware of. I wish someone would have told me that, or I had the foresight to ask. So as a (still) newbie, I find value in seeing other lessons learned and heeding the advice.
If you think about it, any specialized forum should work the same way. You probably have 1-5% of true expertise, maybe 5-15% "experienced" to some degree, then the remainder a mix of no experience/tire kickers. You were once a no expertise/tire kicker.
- Flipper/Rehabber Ā· Member since 2019 Ā· 26 posts Ā· 21 votes6y
@Peter T.
I have $20 to my name. Where should I start? šš¤£
- Rental Property Investor Ā· Amityville, NY Ā· Member since 2018 Ā· 351 posts Ā· 441 votes6y
Originally posted by @Shiloh Lundahl:
@Erik B. I understand your view point of the pro membership not being much better than the regular, free membership. So I understand you discontinuing it. The reason I keep my pro membership is because I think it shows gratitude for the site and I have financially benefited from BiggerPockets far beyond anything I have paid them. Additionally, it allows me to create posts in the networking events forums which is where I announce my monthly meetups.
I agree. I originally went pro as a way to give back to BP for the info and direction they have afforded me. It was just somewhere along the way that I decided to allocate those (mininal) funds to something else.
I go through phases of super frugality where I cut any extra expenses....BP did not make the cut lol
- Rental Property Investor Ā· Richmond, VA Ā· Member since 2020 Ā· 26 posts Ā· 8 votes6y
@Peter T. These are the types of forums I love to read through the wealth of knowledge in this room is excellent. I am a noobie in investing only been doing it for six months but within that time I have been able to close two flips found and partnered with my mentor and looking to work with him on 9 flips. All these advocates here is whatās helping people out of their 9 to 5. Getting these people freedom and wealth. I appreciate the concern you bring up but I would look to you to make meaning full post to find those new ideas.
- Investor Ā· Orlando, FL Ā· Member since 2014 Ā· 18 posts Ā· 3 votes6y
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
They're (bigger pockets) really out of touch with what is happening with real estate data, or how it can be used. BiggerPockets is all about the 'clicks' and SEO from the watered-down articles. When 'ever' have you seen one of the cheesy webinars touch on anything relating to Jupyter Notebooks (Open Source = free) or true analysis of the sale/property data? It's been the backbone tool of the hybrid RE disruptors coming out of Silicon Valley stomping the bejeezus out of the average real estate agent
There IS a disconnect between the real estate professionals and data science folks. The data folks know how to 'load' the data (it's actually really easy to do), but use the same generalized data sets in many of the housing models that get national press for sales and predictions. They use the generalized data sets.... because many of them have no clue where or how to get the property data that matters.... and on top of that, they do not realize the significance of the data points they are looking at, and remove them from the models.
On the flip side of that, most folks in organized RE, (licensed agents) are actually pretty tech illiterate (due to the oh-so-very-low educational bar set to become licensed), if it's not a tool or data source spoonfed to them from a local MLS. But they do understand the variables (the last sale deed type, and $ amount of the last sale, local housing plans/initiatives ect) that actually DO contribute to being able to predict housing prices.
Here's a recent prime example of a solid approach to comps
https://towardsdatascience.com/predicting-house-prices-with-linear-regression-4fc427cb1002She goes on to say 'this data set contained over 20 categorical features' which is kind of a joke. See anything wrong with that? But here is your blueprint to work off of.
Locally where I am in Mpls, I can find a very 'clean' 250 columns of data to load into a Jupyter Notebook consisting of if the parcel is a licensed rental, property type, what recent housing/tax plan that it is part of, deed/sales information, 'attributes' of the structure (beds/bath/sf ect) and it's 'free' data... and ya know what? You can similar in every major metro, if you 'look' for the data.
Do a search on BP for 'Jupyter Notebook'....
---
I think that's way out of scope for this site, at least the way its presented in that article. That's asking Real Estate agents to tune Machine Learning models. But to your point, higher level discussions and even just information of what's going on with Real Estate Data would be a big plus.That said, I've got a lot of questions about this because I'm a programmer. :-) Going to shoot you a DM.
Thanks for sharing.
- 6yKevin McGuirePro MemberCTO of BiggerPockets Ā· Seattle, WA Ā· Member since 2019 Ā· 168 posts Ā· 178 votes
@Peter T. What would āmore worthwhile and advanced discussionsā look like?
- Investor Ā· Chicago IL Ā· Member since 2014 Ā· 20 posts Ā· 6 votes6y
I personally find that it has value to me when i'm searching a specific topic or have a question about something I am unsure of. I do not log in everyday, but I can see if you are someone who does why you might get that perspective, as many of the topics do seem to get recycled every so often.
- 6yJoe S.Pro MemberInvestor Ā· San Antonio Ā· Member since 2020 Ā· 3k+ posts Ā· 3k+ votes
@Peter Tverdov I am sure you do have more perspective on Bigger Pockets than I do whereas I have not spent a ton of time on it compared to others. Those that benefits from the site the most appears to be those that are directly or indirectly receiving partners, clients, or sales. Notice I said indirectly, because some of them will say theyāre giving back as their main focus. Iāve personally received some good information on Bigger Pockets. With that in mind there are people giving information on Bigger Pockets that are clueless. It appears that most of the moderators are extremely knowledgeable on real estate and use a ton of tack.
One of the things that I have gained personally is the way āSOMEā of the posters disagree in such an agreeable manner. Sometimes I will follow a debate for the sole purpose of watching peoples choice of words and styles. - Rental Property Investor Ā· Indianapolis, IN Ā· Member since 2020 Ā· 562 posts Ā· 554 votes6y
@Bob Prisco
No Bob, I did not think that watching videos would make me rich. I have purchased 2 SFR's and am working on my third. I do expect to put in the time, over a long time and build wealth.
Maybe I didnāt communicate clearly about my position. I agree with the original post that often times the forums donāt have a ton of value. For me, as a newbie to the site I was disappointed to see how quickly my excitement about BP faded.
- 6yScott TrenchPro MemberRental Property Investor Ā· Denver, CO Ā· Member since 2014 Ā· 2k+ posts Ā· 6k+ votes
@Peter Tverdov and to all the other folks who have posted thoughtful, valuable contributions to this discussion - thank you! We really appreciate the feedback here.
Looping in my personal journey, I remember being a complete novice, starstruck by Brandon and Josh and the podcast. I remember listening to dozens or hundreds of episodes, finally joining the community, and posting my very first forum introduction post. I remember like 15 people welcoming me, including @Brandon Turner and ultimately the broker who sold me my first duplex. Some guy also spammed that thread and got his account closed and his posts hidden by the moderation team.
I remember how overwhelming it was to be greeted by folks. Looking back, some, like my agent (who was great and landed me an incredible deal that has made me hundreds of thousands of dollars), had multiple reasons for greeting me - including an indirect shot at my business. I'm glad for that. And, I'm glad that a few just plain old real estate nerds with seemingly no agenda other than love for sharing success greeted me.
I've gone on to then join BP as an employee, and now take over as President/CEO. I've posted 1500 times, bought multiple properties here in CO, and generally feel that I'm a full-fledged member of the community.
And I think I totally get where you are coming from, Peter. After perhaps the first 500-1,000 hours of studying real estate and posting to the forums, I think the diminishing marginal returns on the 1,001st hour begin to take effect. While I can learn new tactical items forever, rarely do I have a structure, fundamental, or framework for investing change on it's head. BP delivered that value to me as a user far before I posted my 100th time, much less my thousandth time.
When I entered my "power user" phase, I really took joy in not just helping people, but also starting debates. Like @Shiloh Lundahl mentions, I thought it was boring to post for the 100th time about the importance of reserves, and investing for cash flow - those are both so thoroughly ingrained in members of the community that the 25,000th post to that effect does not need to be started by us. I got pleasure/learning/the wheels turning by posting more controversial items, or topics that the smart members of this community could reasonably disagree on. Things like, "Does an LLC make zero sense for a House-Hacker" and why I think trading stocks is silly, but active investing in RE is wise.
After a while, my frameworks were developed enough where even those more intricate debates were fully fleshed. I make a point here to post now, not so much for my own learning and/or networking, but for a more simple reason: Many members of our community are literally investing dozens or hundreds of hours learning about REI. They are preparing to make a bet with what is to many of them literally a lifetime of accumulated liquidity. They are scared, anxious, thrilled, and motivated. They see the path to FI, but their friends and family might not. I get pleasure simply from congratulating folks on their first deal, or encouraging them to keep grinding away at their self-education, savings, etc. And I'll admit, my frequency of posting and contributing is probably down to a few times per week on average, although it waxes and wanes. Recently, I've been a bit more active.
I think that my journey is probably similar in some capacities to others who have crossed the 1,000 post mark, and I have much to learn from those who have posted 5,000 times and beyond.
As a company, our job is to listen and learn from you guys. I think that the key is to always welcome the new folks, and let them know that they are on the right track, need to invest the hours in learning this business, but letting them know that as experienced members of the community that we are happy to help them, even for the 1,000th time, get a general sense of "where to start". I think that we need to make sure that our users who go a little beyond that and join and contribute regularly are exposed to new and fresh debates, and are able to more easily go on to see variation and new ideas/perspectives. And I think that the true long-term contributors, like yourself, need to be exposed to everything we just mentioned, plus real data showing just how many lives you are impacting positively with your contributions, in addition to deals/business that your contributions go on to indirectly or directly contribute to. We are currently underway on reinvesting in our forum and networking architecture, and our entire team working on that has seen this thread - great timing!
I'll leave with this - I don't believe any posts 500, 1,000, 5,000, or 40,000+ times to this community for business or self-education reasons. The only reason you can get that far is becuase you are addicted. Perhaps to real estate, but more likely to helping the next guy achieve FI and go on to realize their potential.
- Rock Star Extraordinaire Ā· Northeast, TN Ā· Member since 2015 Ā· 10k+ posts Ā· 16k+ votes6y
Originally posted by @Joe M.:
So...I know Ive asked some dumb questions and was as new as a newbie can be. I really appreciate the information and patience the forums offered.
My only 2 gripes (and I hope its is seen as constructive and not just complaining) are 1. So many of the eviction moratorium posts were banished. I get they got political. But, I was getting real value from them if you overlooked the politics of it. That was and is a topic that fascinates me, worries me a bit, factors into my own thought process. While I see BP POV on those threads, I wish they werent gonzo so fast due to they were and are really relevant to a lot of ppl here.
The other (hopefully constructive) gripe is stop from click-baity titles, spammy and articles on the blog. Some are reallllly bad and not what BP should be-esp with newbies. I get putting out content, but just adding junk doesnt bring much value to the brand.
Nothing wrong with constructive suggestions or criticism done right. Just to respond to your thoughts:
1. We have to remove political material here. It's not allowed, period. Posters can agree or disagree with that stance but the site owners take a hard stance against it. After being a moderator here for a few years I understand it, because the forums would be unpleasant and unusable in short order if it was allowed. Sometime a post can be edited to remove the political bend and leave the rest of an otherwise good post behind, but that takes time and the mods/staff have no obligation to do so. I try to do it when the rest of the post is good but the sheer volume of threads these days makes it more difficult.
2. Blog posts should always be taken as the point of view of the writer. They're not held to peer review or other scientific standards, and like many editorials they often have an angle that they are promoting. With a few exceptions most blog posts are guest writers so that should always be kept in mind. That's not saying they don't have value, but they're not going to have value to everyone and in some cases may serve as a vehicle for other things.
In any case, every person here in these forums was a "newbie" at some point in their life. No one knows everything there is to know about all aspects of real estate. Sometimes a new user can post a question in such a way that experienced people have to rethink their position or reexamine their own strategies. I've learned a lot from old hands, but I've also learned from new people, who may approach an issue with a fresh set of eyes. We all get blinded by our own biases, and there's nothing wrong with seeing how anyone else does it. Yes, there's a lot of fun made of the "I've got $20, how do I get started?" posts, but there's also no need to respond to those threads if you think it's stupid. Serious investors/would-be investors will not take the lack of responses to a thoughtless question personally, and will be back re-wording things in another way that might elicit more feedback.
As for networking and value-add, I am part of a mastermind group directly as a result of BP with 4 other guys that are smarter than me when it comes to real estate - they've done more deals, done deals in ways I've never considered, and have experiences I've never had. Personally, I prefer to be the dumbest or next-to-dumbest guy in the room because then I have room to learn. I think I'm reasonably seasoned, and I wouldn't consider myself to even be in the top third of experienced people here (leaving out the newbies). I have plenty to learn. If you think you have nothing to learn here, then I don't see why you'd even bother hanging around. And if you do have something to learn here, and learn it, then isn't wading through some nonsense worth the (free/relatively free) education?
Skyline Properties - 6yJoe VilleneuvePro MemberPlymouth, MI Ā· Member since 2013 Ā· 13k+ posts Ā· 19k+ votes
Originally posted by @Thomas Neff:
@Joe Villeneuve
Lol! We are just waiting for our closing on our personal home. The seller originally owned a construction company and got into furniture making in retirement. A 4 car garage FULL of great furniture. He is leaving a riding lawn mower and nice pool table. He also he will not have the room for all the furniture. As part of the negotiations he is throwing in furniture we choose. Lucky us.
JACKPOT!!!!!
- Investor Ā· VA Ā· Member since 2015 Ā· 21k+ posts Ā· 19k+ votes6y
I can see your point as I do not use BP anymore typically for my own educational resources but now provide feedback to people.I find you can get better responses on closed facebook groups regarding a particular topic. With that said, similar to what others posted, I frequently contribute to BP and it ends up being a marketing tool for me as I get a lot of deals and relationships from this site. I would say BP is probably been the biggest contributor to my growth - potentially even more than my podcast.
7e investments53 Reviews - Specialist Ā· Cleveland, OH Ā· Member since 2018 Ā· 1k+ posts Ā· 666 votes6y
@Account Closed great job, keep it going !! Do not get discouraged. BP is the best networking / learning site I have found. There seems to be more real " players " here then on all the others and many are wiling to offer great advice .
All the best ,
- Rental Property Investor Ā· New York, NY Ā· Member since 2011 Ā· 956 posts Ā· 510 votes6y
I feel somewhat similar- but I donāt think itās the forums that have lost value . I think I have gained in knowledge and experience because of the forums , so I need them less.
as others have said - time to give back some of what Iāve received. - Central, MN Ā· Member since 2015 Ā· 148 posts Ā· 184 votes6y
This is a good thread... as a newbie and very limited experienced REI, I feel the following:
*Where can you get free access to thoughts, models, experience and back and forth conversation from so many accomplished folks from all over the world for FREE in any industry like you can here?
*The thought process of "I'm getting nothing from this anymore" is a perfect summary of our society as we are right now. If we aren't getting something for it, immediately, we don't seem very engaged (as an average, not everyone)
*I think everyone is looking for different things here, maybe just slightly different, but this thread is a perfect example of that. Some are looking for information to get started, some are looking for analytics about the industry, some are keeping up with buddies/respected colleagues, etc. Maybe the folks that don't see the value, aren't finding what they want anymore or don't NEED what they were looking for anymore.
BP is about as good of a site for this type of thing as anywhere. It provides you information from every angle and every level of person in real estate. Just like anything else, it is up the the consumer of the information to decide what to do with it. If it is truly becoming the village elder, like has been mentioned, maybe the key for the folks bored with it, is to start seeing their place as the "information giver" instead of the "information gatherer."
- Rental Property Investor Ā· Los Angeles Ā· Member since 2018 Ā· 844 posts Ā· 1k+ votes6y
Originally posted by @Peter Tverdov:
I find myself browsing these forums less and less as times passes. Biggerpockets is such a machine now and while there is lots of useful advice, it's primarily aimed at newbies (who can't use the search function mind you). It's difficult to find worthwhile discussions or more advanced discussions and it wasn't that way a few years ago. The podcasts feel mostly the same (hey, I pyramided my way to 50 doors!). Anyone else feel this way? I've considered upgrading just so I can post in the forums with more serious folks but it's getting tougher to come on here and have discussions IMO. So many tire kickers or people asking ridiculous questions.
I honestly don't think it's the forum changing so much as probably your knowledge and experience has grown...and so the usefulness of some of the common recurring topics will inevitably change. I remember back when I used to digest every bit of information about Turnkeys with absolute fascination. They seemed too good to be true (they are, lol). Now that I've found my niche and my bread and butter investment, I no longer need to absorb new information because what I do is very specific to my area. I find that BP is more about mingling with other like-minded investors, sharing some experiences, and also entertainment. I have my group of favorite posters and I still find their thoughts and ideas very interesting (@Russell Brazil, @jd martin, @Joe villenueve, @Jay Hinrichs, @Joe Splitrock, too many others to mention.. I miss Dennis dearly!!).
I just checked my profile and I am simply blown away that I've been a member here for two years now. It's kind of scary how quickly time flies....but I realize that although I've been in RE for a long time, finding BP was really a game-changer for me and it's provided me with a paradigm shift on the way I view money. I'm pretty sure that BP has not lost its value for someone just starting out and is hungry to learn more about RE.
- Investor Ā· San Antonio, TX Ā· Member since 2019 Ā· 576 posts Ā· 307 votes6y
I haven't been in real estate for 20+ years like some of the respondents here but I feel like these forums are extremely useful, especially to those who are a bit newer. Not to mention how great it is for networking. I didn't even necessarily have that goal when I started using this but who could complain. I think the pro membership fee is absolutely worth it and I love using the calculators. Nothing but good things to say about BP.
- Erie, PA Ā· Member since 2018 Ā· 413 posts Ā· 348 votes6y
Originally posted by @Tony Kim:
Originally posted by @Peter Tverdov:
I find myself browsing these forums less and less as times passes. Biggerpockets is such a machine now and while there is lots of useful advice, it's primarily aimed at newbies (who can't use the search function mind you). It's difficult to find worthwhile discussions or more advanced discussions and it wasn't that way a few years ago. The podcasts feel mostly the same (hey, I pyramided my way to 50 doors!). Anyone else feel this way? I've considered upgrading just so I can post in the forums with more serious folks but it's getting tougher to come on here and have discussions IMO. So many tire kickers or people asking ridiculous questions.
I honestly don't think it's the forum changing so much as probably your knowledge and experience has grown...and so the usefulness of some of the common recurring topics will inevitably change. I remember back when I used to digest every bit of information about Turnkeys with absolute fascination. They seemed too good to be true (they are, lol). Now that I've found my niche and my bread and butter investment, I no longer need to absorb new information because what I do is very specific to my area. I find that BP is more about mingling with other like-minded investors, sharing some experiences, and also entertainment. I have my group of favorite posters and I still find their thoughts and ideas very interesting (@Russell Brazil, @jd martin, @Joe villenueve, @Jay Hinrichs, @Joe Splitrock, too many others to mention.. I miss Dennis dearly!!).
I just checked my profile and I am simply blown away that I've been a member here for two years now. It's kind of scary how quickly time flies....but I realize that although I've been in RE for a long time, finding BP was really a game-changer for me and it's provided me with a paradigm shift on the way I view money. I'm pretty sure that BP has not lost its value for someone just starting out and is hungry to learn more about RE.
My 3rd piece of constructive criticism....free Dennis
- Real Estate Broker Ā· Windsor, CT Ā· Member since 2015 Ā· 1k+ posts Ā· 268 votes6y
I use these forums for networking! I have received a wealth of knowledge and a new network of friends and mentors that I would not have been afford if I did not browse the forums daily! As I continue to grow on in my real estate investing, property management and real estate sales businesses in Connecticut, I have found this platform to be an essential resource!
- Member since 2020 Ā· 117 posts Ā· 84 votes6y
I 100% agree with the OP and i havent been her very long. when i first found BP i seemed to find new post that seem to have substance. now its all how many investors are engineers, how many investors are doctors and no offense to those poster but things of that nature have no real value. and if that was an out liar then ok but its more and more common to have things that dont talk about real estate.
- Olathe, KS Ā· Member since 2018 Ā· 148 posts Ā· 207 votes6y
I've been on here 2 1/2 years, so neither a newbie nor someone with overwhelming experience. I've noticed a change, not necessarily with the forum itself but the biggerpockets organization and frankly the real estate education space in general. Things that I've noticed in the past year:
Deals started become tighter, so sponsors started ramping up their education instead
To sell education and what limited deals they had, everyone started having each other on each other's podcasts to sell more and more
BP expanded from two podcasts to four, started bpcon, lot more books, etc...basically more and more information with a lot of the cross pollination between podcasts.
I think in general it's more and more people chasing fewer and fewer deals, so the same information is being repeated a lot more often trying to reel in more new people. Everyone is trying to get their slice of the education pie which driving down the value somewhat. BP isn't trying to chase deals but they've transitioned into a 'business' type mode this past year, you can tell, making the needle swing towards 'too much'.
Also the fact that the pandemic happened made the deal flow even worse, which has made some people lean into the education selling portion even more. It's information overload. BP has 4 podcasts, Jake and gino has 4, etc.
I like Biggerpockets a lot. But the lines between honest advice, selling you something, etc are being blurred more and more. This forum is different than every other one I'm on because 99% of the users in those forums have no financial reason to be on the forum. This one is almost all financial, so sometimes I think what people really think isn't seen because it would be bad for business.
- Real Estate Broker Ā· Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH Ā· Member since 2013 Ā· 30k+ posts Ā· 20k+ votes6y
The recipe for most websites is provide a ton of free value to build up the user base and then monetize it. Think about Zillow, Facebook, IG etc....If BP wasn't properly monetizing their platform they'd be headed down the same path as Myspace.
Join the conversationCreate a free account to reply, vote on answers and follow this thread.