Loaned money to a brother in law

Loaned money to a brother in law

Orland Park, IL · Member since 2018 · 10 posts · 2 votes

Sorry to bother you guys with my mistakes but in August of 2019 I loaned 50K to my wife’s sisters husband, he was supposed to return the loan in November of the same year with a $5K extra ( so 55K total) that Didn’t happen. Because he’s family I didn’t ask about the money until January/February of 2020, he came over then and convinced us to loan him another 75K for until July, he offered us 25K in profit. So in total he loaned 125K and was supposed to pay back 150K.

He needed the money to push work on a 14 unit apartment building which is almost done and was supposed to be refinanced to finish the fix with the new construction loan and also he was to pay me back from that refi.

The building is not done yet and he’s trying to do a refi but he’s saying that there are problems with it, due to COVID-19.

My question is what should I do? It’s almost November and I don’t have a real answer from him on when I’ll get the money back, the money was supposed to be used on investments into my own rental properties, I don’t know if it’s good that he’s family or not, we’re sure that we’ll get our money back but don’t have an answer when that will happen.

He said he’ll make it worth the wait for us.

Any input is appreciated and please don’t call me an idiot, also don’t ask to barrow money Cause I won’t do it

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Nathan GesnerBusiness Member
Moderator
Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
6y

Question: would you let a stranger treat you this way?

He made an agreement and failed to abide by it. Then he had the nerve to ask you for even more! I personally want a proven track record before I'll start giving someone leeway.

I would give him written notice with 60 days to pay off the loan in full. If he fails, it goes to the attorney and his expenses will only go up from there.

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  • Nathan GesnerBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
    6y

    Question: would you let a stranger treat you this way?

    He made an agreement and failed to abide by it. Then he had the nerve to ask you for even more! I personally want a proven track record before I'll start giving someone leeway.

    I would give him written notice with 60 days to pay off the loan in full. If he fails, it goes to the attorney and his expenses will only go up from there.

    The DIY Landlord Book4.7245 Reviews
  • John MorganPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Grand Prairie, TX · Member since 2018 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    6y

    @Jan Styrczula

    If he’s had success in the past with real estate investing I would be patient. Maybe ask him details about his investment to make sure it’s all legit.

  • Polo VazquezPro Member
    Real Estate Agent · McAllen, TX · Member since 2017 · 382 posts · 281 votes
    6y

    You should had put a lien against the property in exchange for the loan. Anyway, enough about the past haha.

    You could do what Nathan or John said. They are polar opposites but valid. I would probably lean more towars Nathan's, but if you don't a possible solution is to have him give you interest in the building. Lets say 50% ownership of the building? Maybe more. Then you can finish the building (it will probably require more money so I would ask for more ownershipt) and start collecting rent based on whatever % you are owner.

    Just make sure you run good number and quotes of the ammount of money it would take to finish the property. Don't fall on the same hole he did.

  • Licensed Realtor & Investor · Miami, FL · Member since 2015 · 164 posts · 124 votes
    6y

    @Jan Styrczula sorry to hear that you are going through this. Were these loans you made to him secured by any interest in the property or simply a verbal agreement? Also, did you loan the money to him personally or to an entity he controls? I agree with @Nathan Gesnerin that you should demand repayment in full within a timeframe that you are ok with. I think 60 days is reasonable as Nathan suggested. At the end of the day, you are in a pretty bad spot. Ultimately this is a civil matter and your only recourse will be taking him to court to seek a judgement against him. 

    I have seen this type of scenario play out many times over the years in my work as a Police Detective in the Economic Crimes Unit. Many times people file police reports as theft and/or fraud for very similar circumstances. In each case however, I have to inform them that their case is a civil matter that can not be handled by law enforcement. I hope this all works out in your favor soon!

  • Orland Park, IL · Member since 2018 · 10 posts · 2 votes
    6y

    @John Morgan thanks for your response, that would keep the family relations on a reasonable level. Let’s say I don’t go to an attorney should I ask for more money for the time that he’s late?

  • Rental Property Investor · East Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Jan Styrczula:

    @John Morgan thanks for your response, that would keep the family relations on a reasonable level. Let’s say I don’t go to an attorney should I ask for more money for the time that he’s late?

    When I've lent to about-to-be sellers so they can update and make market ready, I always get a lien position on the property and a deadline and a late fee / consequence for breach.  

    is any of this in writing, Jan? 

  • Orland Park, IL · Member since 2018 · 10 posts · 2 votes
    6y

    @Steve Vaughan yes it was notarized in January 30th 2020, and it said that the loan is for 125,000$ and 150,000 was to be paid in July of 2020, the loan was against an empty lot that he owns

  • Orland Park, IL · Member since 2018 · 10 posts · 2 votes
    6y

    @Nathan G. No I wouldn’t, the only reason that I’m not doing anything about it yet is because he’s my sister in law’s husband and he’s absolutely using that for his own benefit

  • Austin, TX · Member since 2019 · 5k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Jan Styrczula:

    ... my wife’s sisters husband ... was supposed to return the loan ... on a 14 unit apartment building ... he’s trying to do a refi but he’s saying that there are problems with it, due to COVID-19 ...we’re sure that we’ll get our money back but don’t have an answer when that will happen. ... He said he’ll make it worth the wait for us.

    You could have worse relatives, many people do.

  • Nathan GesnerBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Jan Styrczula:

    @Nathan G. No I wouldn’t, the only reason that I’m not doing anything about it yet is because he’s my sister in law’s husband and he’s absolutely using that for his own benefit

    Business is business. Family is family.

    It's too late now, but in the future you should be very clear with any friend/relative that this is a business transaction and will be treated as such. No special favors for family because they are most likely to screw you over. 

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  • Rental Property Investor · Leavenworth, KS · Member since 2018 · 22 posts · 18 votes
    6y

    @Jan Styrczula I would suggest doing paperwork that states the new agreement with his signature. Talk to a lawyer with the drawn up new agreement and have the Lawyer check it.

    Write down what he is telling about payment and timeline. Then say this agreement is in your words. I am not a lawyer. This is what I would do in your situation.

    Hope that helps, sorry about this situation.

  • Russell BrazilBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes
    6y

    Kiss that money goodbye

  • Joe S.Pro Member
    Investor · San Antonio · Member since 2020 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Jan Styrczula:

    Sorry to bother you guys with my mistakes but in August of 2019 I loaned 50K to my wife’s sisters husband, he was supposed to return the loan in November of the same year with a $5K extra ( so 55K total) that Didn’t happen. Because he’s family I didn’t ask about the money until January/February of 2020, he came over then and convinced us to loan him another 75K for until July, he offered us 25K in profit. So in total he loaned 125K and was supposed to pay back 150K.

    He needed the money to push work on a 14 unit apartment building which is almost done and was supposed to be refinanced to finish the fix with the new construction loan and also he was to pay me back from that refi.

    The building is not done yet and he’s trying to do a refi but he’s saying that there are problems with it, due to COVID-19.

    My question is what should I do? It’s almost November and I don’t have a real answer from him on when I’ll get the money back, the money was supposed to be used on investments into my own rental properties, I don’t know if it’s good that he’s family or not, we’re sure that we’ll get our money back but don’t have an answer when that will happen.

    He said he’ll make it worth the wait for us.

    Any input is appreciated and please don’t call me an idiot, also don’t ask to barrow money Cause I won’t do it

     It really comes down to is he not going to pay you or is he over a barrel and simply can’t pay you at the original time frame? If it is the original time frame that is the hold up then you may want to take that in consideration even though I’m sure it is frustrating and you could use the money yourself on your own projects. I don’t see what good hiring an attorney would do if he can’t pay then he can’t pay. For some people 150k is a ton of money for other people not so much. I get the idea that the 150k payback delay is not going to make you eat cat food :-)

    Hopefully he does make it right when he can and does his best to repair the breach that this situation has created. If he does not make it good then at that point you have to figure out if you are going to simply use the 150 thousand loss as a hard lesson learned or whether you will permanently Destroy all future possibilities of Goodwill between you and your brother in law.

  • Rental Property Investor · Northern, CA · Member since 2012 · 5k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    6y

    Sounds like a risky loan being that it’s unsecured and the terms are so “fluid”.  Not to mention that’s a lot of money.

    Two primary lending rules I go by for the sake of all parties involved:

    #1 - Put EVERYTHING in writing.

    #2 - Don't loan money to family/friends unless you're willing to lose both. 

    I really hope this works out for you. 

  • Investor · USA · Member since 2015 · 325 posts · 447 votes
    6y

    @Jan Styrczula

    This is a balancing act. You can’t push too much but you want to know what is going on. I would ask to meet with him in person. In that meeting stress that the arrangement is not going as planned. Seek to be put on the 14 plex and when he refinances he can cash you out. I would take this strategy first.

    If he laughs at the idea. Tell him you are going to start the foreclosure process on the vacant property. The terms are not being met and you have to start the process. I would phrase it like this.

    “I know that we are family and I trust that you will pay me back. But from a business perspective you are breaching our contract. I am going to start the process of foreclosing on the vacant lot.”

    See what he says. If the dude doesn’t want to put you as a lienholder on the 14 plex then there is something up. You will get paid at the refi. There is really not a problem. If he told me no I would start foreclosing his other property.

    *not an attorney. Seek one out.

  • Lender · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    6y

    A great, very long-term borrow of ours had several projects going on when COVID hit. We’ve never had issues with him over many dozens of loans. He’s well-capitalized, bright, honorable, and all his projects were well above water. Another lender, on projects we weren’t associated with, apparently panicked and demanded immediate payment when a few of his loans matured.

    Knowing she could foreclose, he stopped work on these while trying to get her to back off and let him just complete the projects so everyone could make money. She and her investors relented. Guess what? They now own a few homes that they have no idea what to do with, and will certainly lose a lot of money. All they needed were the patience to let him do what he’s proven he does well.

    On the other hand, we waited as we always do, and have been getting paid back on his properties. We’ve also done more loans with him.

    I’m always amazed at how some lenders are unwilling to cut anyone some slack but very willing to cut their nose off to spite their face. It’s not personal, it’s business, and all that rubbish. Giving your brother-in-law the benefit of the doubt, I bet all he wants is do is complete his project and pay you and everyone else off. Very likely, it’s not in your interest at this point to force the issue.

    Consider; assuming you have a documented loan (at least a note and recorded mortgage), if you foreclose and obtain the property, what would be your plan? Perhaps those above who would jump on the FC bandwagon could offer an answer?

    In all likelihood, you would own an incomplete 14-unit project now subject to a 1st position mortgage. Could you pay the 1st off? No? Then you’ll end up losing it to them and you will be wiped out. (Our borrower’s lender and her investors, above, were 110% convinced the homes would sell at the foreclosure sale and pay them off. I mean, who doesn’t want to pay a premium for a busted construction project at a foreclosure auction? They were wrong.)

    If you don’t have a documented mortgage, first shame on you, Jan, but your recourse now would be suing in court and obtaining a judgment. Good luck collecting on that judgment.

    Good luck with the family relations after any of this.

    My advice:

    1) I don’t know what, “… it was notarized on …,” means. If there is no loan, or just an unsecured note, get your brother in law to sign complete loan docs prepared by an attorney who knows what he or she is doing. Though you provided no information to the contrary, if nothing else, this will make the loan real to him and perhaps he’ll take it seriously. It will also ensure you get paid back when he (hopefully) refinances. If not, all the refinance money will go to him and the 1st position lender.

    2) As a lender, secured or not, you have a right to know the status of the project and of the financing. Even in the best of times things always take longer than anyone hopes. Patience is key here. We’ve waited long after some notes matured for projects to get completed but we’ve always followed their status. So long as things are moving forward, you’ll never have an issue.

    3) I don’t know your relationship, but I’d meet privately with your brother in law at the property perhaps monthly, and discuss status at lunch. Make it clear and non-judgmental, that you are concerned but have no plans to take any legal action. He’s stressed enough. Once you threaten or pressure him, he’ll quit returning your calls.

    4) Re-read @Kyle J.'s post above.

    Good luck, Jan.

  • Investor · USA · Member since 2015 · 325 posts · 447 votes
    6y

    @Jeff S.

    I would probably lean a little more your way than mine. It’s just hard to know what his brother-in-laws intentions are. That is something Jan will have to feel out.

    Goodwill goes a long way on handshake deals but I will tell you. I have heard some crazy stories.

    At my last job a guy and I were talking about investing. He was flipping houses and trying to make it happen. He confided in me that his mother in law owned her condo free and clear but put it in her daughters (this guys wifes) name. He talked his wife into doing a cashout refi for 250k. He blew the money. MIL has know idea it was refi’d. I asked him, “what are you going to do?” He shrugged his shoulders and said “I don’t know”. I

  • Investor · Miami, FL · Member since 2016 · 35 posts · 26 votes
    6y

    Amazing and wise answers, all.  But, based on the hand-wringing I can sense in you (which is totally understandable), I have to go with the response that said you should just kiss the money goodbye.  I only suggest that b/c you are clearly (and legitimately) concerned about the relationship with various members of your family.  It's unfortunate that you have a family member who knows you have money and also knows that you value family more than you value your money.  In some ways, I'm sure we all wish we had a family member we could hit not once but twice like that.  But the chickens do come home to roost, so it's better to steer clear of conduct like that. The man is a low-life.  It would be great to sue him.  It's easy to tell you to do that from over here.  But if you're more concerned about rocking the relationship-boat, you are going to have to 1) kiss the money goodbye, 2) forgive yourself for the time you burned by giving that much money away (b/c now you have to figure out how to recoup what you lost and that will take time), and 3) figure out a way to look the man in the eye every Thanksgiving.  That can be done, but not easily.  

    Alternatively, and I think this is the real issue, you are going to have to get over your fear of confronting this issue head-on.  You don't have to cause a big fight about it.  But you do have to put your foot down, first with yourself (the bigger challenge) and then with him.  Many families have a human ATM.  For whatever reason, this man thinks that's who you are and he has no respect for you.  I'm just telling you the truth.  If the tables were turned, he wouldn't be doing all the soul-searching you're doing.  There is a way to diplomatically point that out, expressing that you don't appreciate being exploited, and explaining that your investment goals and timelines are no less important than his.  He won't grasp that, b/c he honestly thinks his idea of what to do with your money is superior to yours.  He knows you as sweet, generous, and a push-over.  There's nothing wrong with being meek.  But it's absolutely possible to be confident at the same time, and being disrespected by another man in your family is more than a little obnoxious, in my opinion.  And I'm not even a man.  If you are going to do something about it, you should schedule a polite and respectful meeting with him privately at a time and place where none of the wives and sisters are around or even aware.  Sit him down, tell him how he is messing up your life, and graciously put him on a timeline, explaining that you have already spoken to an attorney about the situation.  If he has a fit (which he may), maintain your composure and explain that HE has left you no other choice.  

    BUT if you can't see yourself doing that and if all the women in the family are going to create merry you-know-what if you do it, then take a deep breath, apologize to your wife, kids, and grandkids, and let it go.  
       

  • Joe S.Pro Member
    Investor · San Antonio · Member since 2020 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Jeff S.:

    A great, very long-term borrow of ours had several projects going on when COVID hit. We’ve never had issues with him over many dozens of loans. He’s well-capitalized, bright, honorable, and all his projects were well above water. Another lender, on projects we weren’t associated with, apparently panicked and demanded immediate payment when a few of his loans matured.

    Knowing she could foreclose, he stopped work on these while trying to get her to back off and let him just complete the projects so everyone could make money. She and her investors relented. Guess what? They now own a few homes that they have no idea what to do with, and will certainly lose a lot of money. All they needed were the patience to let him do what he’s proven he does well.

    On the other hand, we waited as we always do, and have been getting paid back on his properties. We’ve also done more loans with him.

    I’m always amazed at how some lenders are unwilling to cut anyone some slack but very willing to cut their nose off to spite their face. It’s not personal, it’s business, and all that rubbish. Giving your brother-in-law the benefit of the doubt, I bet all he wants is do is complete his project and pay you and everyone else off. Very likely, it’s not in your interest at this point to force the issue.

    Consider; assuming you have a documented loan (at least a note and recorded mortgage), if you foreclose and obtain the property, what would be your plan? Perhaps those above who would jump on the FC bandwagon could offer an answer?

    In all likelihood, you would own an incomplete 14-unit project now subject to a 1st position mortgage. Could you pay the 1st off? No? Then you’ll end up losing it to them and you will be wiped out. (Our borrower’s lender and her investors, above, were 110% convinced the homes would sell at the foreclosure sale and pay them off. I mean, who doesn’t want to pay a premium for a busted construction project at a foreclosure auction? They were wrong.)

    If you don’t have a documented mortgage, first shame on you, Jan, but your recourse now would be suing in court and obtaining a judgment. Good luck collecting on that judgment.

    Good luck with the family relations after any of this.

    My advice:

    1) I don’t know what, “… it was notarized on …,” means. If there is no loan, or just an unsecured note, get your brother in law to sign complete loan docs prepared by an attorney who knows what he or she is doing. Though you provided no information to the contrary, if nothing else, this will make the loan real to him and perhaps he’ll take it seriously. It will also ensure you get paid back when he (hopefully) refinances. If not, all the refinance money will go to him and the 1st position lender.

    2) As a lender, secured or not, you have a right to know the status of the project and of the financing. Even in the best of times things always take longer than anyone hopes. Patience is key here. We’ve waited long after some notes matured for projects to get completed but we’ve always followed their status. So long as things are moving forward, you’ll never have an issue.

    3) I don’t know your relationship, but I’d meet privately with your brother in law at the property perhaps monthly, and discuss status at lunch. Make it clear and non-judgmental, that you are concerned but have no plans to take any legal action. He’s stressed enough. Once you threaten or pressure him, he’ll quit returning your calls.

    4) Re-read @Kyle J.'s post above.

    Good luck, Jan.

     I would vote for your post 10 times, but I will only let me vote once. 

  • Rental Property Investor · Livonia, MI · Member since 2020 · 15 posts · 33 votes
    6y

    @Jan Styrczula

    Agree with Russell, you are never going to see a penny of that money. Go to the local pony track or closest casino to his house and you will see him there with defeated eyes.

    I fell for the bs pitch on giving more money to get my original money back once as well, won't ever happen again! Best lessons learned unfortunately are always the hard way.

  • Rental Property Investor · Northern, CA · Member since 2012 · 5k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Joe S.:
    Originally posted by @Jeff S.:

    A great, very long-term borrow of ours had several projects going on when COVID hit. We’ve never had issues with him over many dozens of loans. He’s well-capitalized, bright, honorable, and all his projects were well above water. Another lender, on projects we weren’t associated with, apparently panicked and demanded immediate payment when a few of his loans matured.

    Knowing she could foreclose, he stopped work on these while trying to get her to back off and let him just complete the projects so everyone could make money. She and her investors relented. Guess what? They now own a few homes that they have no idea what to do with, and will certainly lose a lot of money. All they needed were the patience to let him do what he’s proven he does well.

    On the other hand, we waited as we always do, and have been getting paid back on his properties. We’ve also done more loans with him.

    I’m always amazed at how some lenders are unwilling to cut anyone some slack but very willing to cut their nose off to spite their face. It’s not personal, it’s business, and all that rubbish. Giving your brother-in-law the benefit of the doubt, I bet all he wants is do is complete his project and pay you and everyone else off. Very likely, it’s not in your interest at this point to force the issue.

    Consider; assuming you have a documented loan (at least a note and recorded mortgage), if you foreclose and obtain the property, what would be your plan? Perhaps those above who would jump on the FC bandwagon could offer an answer?

    In all likelihood, you would own an incomplete 14-unit project now subject to a 1st position mortgage. Could you pay the 1st off? No? Then you’ll end up losing it to them and you will be wiped out. (Our borrower’s lender and her investors, above, were 110% convinced the homes would sell at the foreclosure sale and pay them off. I mean, who doesn’t want to pay a premium for a busted construction project at a foreclosure auction? They were wrong.)

    If you don’t have a documented mortgage, first shame on you, Jan, but your recourse now would be suing in court and obtaining a judgment. Good luck collecting on that judgment.

    Good luck with the family relations after any of this.

    My advice:

    1) I don’t know what, “… it was notarized on …,” means. If there is no loan, or just an unsecured note, get your brother in law to sign complete loan docs prepared by an attorney who knows what he or she is doing. Though you provided no information to the contrary, if nothing else, this will make the loan real to him and perhaps he’ll take it seriously. It will also ensure you get paid back when he (hopefully) refinances. If not, all the refinance money will go to him and the 1st position lender.

    2) As a lender, secured or not, you have a right to know the status of the project and of the financing. Even in the best of times things always take longer than anyone hopes. Patience is key here. We’ve waited long after some notes matured for projects to get completed but we’ve always followed their status. So long as things are moving forward, you’ll never have an issue.

    3) I don’t know your relationship, but I’d meet privately with your brother in law at the property perhaps monthly, and discuss status at lunch. Make it clear and non-judgmental, that you are concerned but have no plans to take any legal action. He’s stressed enough. Once you threaten or pressure him, he’ll quit returning your calls.

    4) Re-read @Kyle J.'s post above.

    Good luck, Jan.

     I would vote for your post 10 times, but I will only let me vote once. 

    Funny you should say that @Joe S., I literally had the exact same thought when I first read Jeff’s post. It was a very well thought out response from someone who’s obviously very experienced in this area and can see the different angles/issues.  Definitely worthy of 10 votes.

  • Rental Property Investor · TN · Member since 2018 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    6y

    Is the lot you have as collateral worth $175k?  If so, just tell him that he can full sign over that lot and you can both go about your merry way.  You can sell the lot or build on it, whatever.  And he does not have to worry about paying you off.

    Asking him for additional money for not preforming to the first agreement, or teh second agreement won't likely get you anything, and he might even convince you to give him more money.  Don't go there.

    You could consider asking him for an interest in the apartment building, but if he is pulling $ out there, you will get more debt and a business partner that you can not control and will always have family touchy feely he is family problems with.

  • Rental Property Investor · Durham, NC · Member since 2016 · 7k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    6y

    @Jan Styrczula you will likely never see that money again. This sounds like it was done incorrectly from the start

  • Wholesaler · Salt Lake City, UT · Member since 2020 · 46 posts · 85 votes
    6y

    @Caleb Heimsoth

    Totally agree.

    After skimming this thread, I see something that has not been mentioned yet, and that is "Usery" laws, aka loan sharking.

    I myself was luckily saved by a savvy attorney that caught my actions before I lost over $100k. Long story short, a colleague asked for a loan towards a flip, and I would be secured by either a promissory note or backed with a title on another property worth much less.

    When I was promised a 10% return in 3 months, I was stoked. But what I wasnt aware of, and didnt think about, that loans are perceived as an ANNUAL percentage rate, APR duh. So in the eyes of a judge or commissioner, my loan equated to a 40% APR, which can be seen as loan sharking.

    This information was backed by other attorneys I have since brought the story to. If I didnt get my money and took him to court, the original agreement would be considered null and void due to an unethical APR.

    Remember this next to you lend...

  • Orland Park, IL · Member since 2018 · 10 posts · 2 votes
    6y

    @Jan Styrczula thanks to all the info that I got from all of you, I approached him and talked to him. He’s saying that the refi is in the process of being done

    I really hope he’s not lying again...

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