Hard Money Lender - This is What a Scam Smells Like

Hard Money Lender - This is What a Scam Smells Like

John FranczykPro Member
Wholesaler · Racine, WI · Member since 2015 · 143 posts · 84 votes

I'm curious if anyone has had a similar experience as this. It's clearly a scam, but the scammer went to great lengths before launching the scam part of the transaction. 

I have been looking for a $55K hard money loan to do a fix and flip. I contacted a lender that posted in a Facebook hard money forum. Everything was going smoothly and seemed to be legit, until I got the final approval notice from the lender stating that they needed me to pay a $980 upfront documentation fee.

I can understand a doc fee if it's disclosed up front and described in the negotiations as points or some other part of the loan, but this lender said nothing about a fee until we got to the final funding phase. He tells me that all we have to do is send him the fee and the funds will be wired back to me.  It seems to me that the Nigerian prince email scams are trending over to hard money now.   

I don't want to list this lender's name or contact info because I don't have solid evidence that this is a scam beyond what I wrote here. Suffice to say that he claims that he is in Yakima, Washington, but his address cannot be found on Google maps and he lists a zip code that does not exist. I pointed this out in my last email to him. He did not respond.

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Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
9y

from my perspective basically 100% of the lenders on facebook are scammers.. plain and simple real lenders don't advertise there Is my thought process.

small balance loans are a niche.. and a reputable HML either won't do them at all ( too small ) or the fee will equal at least 10 points.. as you need to make 4 to 5k a file to stay in business anyone offering less than that for a small balance loan is probably scamming you.. and of course no up front fee expect 3rd party appraisal and maybe credit pull.. that's industry standard.. Lending home charges 150 bucks but they are for real and can be verified.. all others I deal with over the years and myself included.. no up front fees and no hanging our shingle on facebook..

it cracks me up .. they run ads like this.

loans from  10k to 20 million... RIGHT what lender does loans at 10k and 10 million... rates as low as 3.5 %  RIGHT what private money is that cheap I can't even get that cheap from my commercial bank... only owner occ full doc loans are that cheap... etc  etc .. simply a bunch of bull Sh@@@@

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  • Rental Property Investor · Gainesville, FL · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 432 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @John Franczyk:

    I'm curious if anyone has had a similar experience as this. It's clearly a scam, but the scammer went to great lengths before launching the scam part of the transaction. 

    I have been looking for a $55K hard money loan to do a fix and flip. I contacted a lender that posted in a Facebook hard money forum. Everything was going smoothly and seemed to be legit, until I got the final approval notice from the lender stating that they needed me to pay a $980 upfront documentation fee.

    I can understand a doc fee if it's disclosed up front and described in the negotiations as points or some other part of the loan, but this lender said nothing about a fee until we got to the final funding phase. He tells me that all we have to do is send him the fee and the funds will be wired back to me.  It seems to me that the Nigerian prince email scams are trending over to hard money now.   

    I don't want to list this lender's name or contact info because I don't have solid evidence that this is a scam beyond what I wrote here. Suffice to say that he claims that he is in Yakima, Washington, but his address cannot be found on Google maps and he lists a zip code that does not exist. I pointed this out in my last email to him. He did not respond.

    When you have solid evidence it might help the group if you posted this persons name to help others out. 

  • Real Estate Investor · Macedon, NY · Member since 2016 · 251 posts · 290 votes
    9y

    Tell him to take his $980 out the amount he was going to wire transfer.

  • Real Estate Investor · Boise, ID · Member since 2015 · 7 posts · 6 votes
    9y
    As a lender I can say that Facebook forums are not a great way to source capital. I joined a couple lender forums and quickly realized the level of professionalism was sub-par. Sorry to hear about your experience.
  • Investor · Little Rock, AR · Member since 2016 · 152 posts · 40 votes
    9y

    @John Franczyk, yikes!  I'm a loan broker for private and hard money loans and I have zero required up front fees.  *IF* you want me to put a property package together; going out and taking photos, comp photos, getting accurate comps, a business plan, etc there is a fee for that but it's disclosed, optional, and no one takes it.  :)  I would be very wary if I were you. 

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    9y

    from my perspective basically 100% of the lenders on facebook are scammers.. plain and simple real lenders don't advertise there Is my thought process.

    small balance loans are a niche.. and a reputable HML either won't do them at all ( too small ) or the fee will equal at least 10 points.. as you need to make 4 to 5k a file to stay in business anyone offering less than that for a small balance loan is probably scamming you.. and of course no up front fee expect 3rd party appraisal and maybe credit pull.. that's industry standard.. Lending home charges 150 bucks but they are for real and can be verified.. all others I deal with over the years and myself included.. no up front fees and no hanging our shingle on facebook..

    it cracks me up .. they run ads like this.

    loans from  10k to 20 million... RIGHT what lender does loans at 10k and 10 million... rates as low as 3.5 %  RIGHT what private money is that cheap I can't even get that cheap from my commercial bank... only owner occ full doc loans are that cheap... etc  etc .. simply a bunch of bull Sh@@@@

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    9y

    On top of that why would someone from Racine be talking to a lender in Yakima  LOL.. most people never heard of Yakima.. great wine country.. but not a hot bed of lenders I can tell you that.. go local.. there has to be local lenders that will do this for you.

  • Ronan M.Pro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2015 · 352 posts · 281 votes
    9y

    "I contacted a lender that posted in a Facebook"

    nuff said...

  • Rebecca KnoxBusiness Member
    Specialist · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    There is a Facebook group called REI Blacklist that is a platform used to expose questionable lenders. I agree with Jay, did you try a local lender such as Milwaukee Hard Money? The nice thing with them is that they are local investors themselves and only will lend if the numbers make sense, it really protects the investor from potentially making a bad investment so if they won't lend on the deal, it's a red flag. They just funded a $15k buy for a fellow investor friend I know so the amount of the loan you need isn't a problem. I also met another local HML this past month. You can PM for their details if needed.

    Captain Save-A-Home LLC
  • Real Estate Agent · Chicago, IL · Member since 2017 · 715 posts · 138 votes
    9y

    Thank you for the post @John Franczyk

  • Investor · McKinney, TX · Member since 2016 · 50 posts · 26 votes
    9y
    I hope you didn't give this person your social security number. You may want to look into identity theft protection also since it sounds like you did give some personal information thinking they were legit.
  • Real Estate Consultant · Brookfield, WI · Member since 2014 · 873 posts · 350 votes
    8y

    There should not be any upfront fees, maybe cost for an appraisal. Usually, all the fees are paid at the closing. 

  • Investor · Asbury Park, NJ · Member since 2017 · 6 posts · 3 votes
    8y

    I work for a hard money lender out of New Jersey. Unfortunately, I've had borrowers that have made their way to me only after going through a similar experience. I've only ever heard horror stories of up front fees and have never heard of anyone paying up front and having a good experience. The cost of an appraisal being passed to the investor is standard, but the only time we ever charge anything before closing would be a commitment fee in certain/rare cases. 

    If you want any more general info from the hard money lending perspective feel free to PM or connect. We are also looking to learn more about the Milwaukee market and possibly lend/invest in the area if anyone else would like to connect.

  • Lender · Dallas, TX · Member since 2015 · 71 posts · 48 votes
    8y

    Unfortunately we do not lend in WI or I would certainly offer assistance.  That said, there are zero instances where any borrower should pay a lender any amount of money up front.  The only fee that might be paid prior to closing is to an appraiser.  The lender should only collect a fee once the loan closes.  There are too many variables.  Sorry this happened, but hopefully your post provides insight for others.

  • Tom GimerBusiness Member
    DMV · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    8y

    Let me guess... the "lender" didn't even need to see all the details of your deal.

    Got a call the other day from a client who was being offered a $600,000 hard money loan, just needed to pay $5,000 up front. No information was required about the deal itself! Yeah, like anybody is going to make a $600,000 unsecured loan.

    Gimer Law516 Reviews
  • Lender · Montclair, NJ · Member since 2010 · 121 posts · 16 votes
    8y

    @John Franczyk don't walk but run away from this which is clearly a scam. Some consider documentation fee to be a junk fee. However, when it is charged, it's paid at closing and not as an upfront fee. Also, $980 is very high for a doc fee associated with a $55k loan.

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