Bought house & owner nor agents told me about IMMINENT DOMAIN.
Rental Property Investor · Member since 2019 · 66 posts · 24 votes
Bought house & owner nor agents told me about IMMINENT DOMAIN.
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Tom GimerBusiness Member
DMV · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votesBe careful who you listen to, @Joshua Ocean.
Sounds like a material fact was known by the seller but not disclosed. The state disclosure form in section 1. Title actually includes this line item -- "F. Is there any study, survey project, or notice that would adversely affect the property?" The attorney is correct in that sellers are not required to provide a disclosure form, but they are required to disclose known material defects.
By including this as a specific line item on the state form, it appears the state views knowledge by a seller of a plan to widen the bed of a road as material, requiring disclosure. It's clearly material to YOU if you would not have purchased the property had you been made aware of it. Non-disclosure of a material fact could lead to seller liability.
IMO, any claim would be against the seller alone. I would consult with a DIFFERENT local real estate attorney for a second opinion.
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41 Replies
- 4yBruce WoodruffPro MemberContractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
Did this not show up in the Title search?
- Real Estate Consultant · Seattle, WA · Member since 2022 · 1k+ posts · 784 votes4y
Unfortunately this is common. A part of the property is almost always in the city’s right of way. You may feel like it is yours but it is not. Many buyers feel the same way when they buy a property with great views and then something is built in front of them. The survey and the lot boundaries should delineate the right of way and your property line. Laws to disclose vary but from what I know it is usually on the buyer to review and confirm to their satisfaction.
- 4yJay HinrichsBusiness MemberReal Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
if it was an actual taking by I D then the old owner got compensated for something. I think the issue is as Sergey said you dont own the land its in the exsisting right of way.
who told you it was a I D claim ? or situation. ?? those are very long and drawn out process's . While in most states its not common to survey SFR on lot and block type of locations a survey would have showed you your actual property lines.
- Investor · VA · Member since 2015 · 21k+ posts · 19k+ votes4y
@Jay Hinrichs
I agree this doesn’t sound like ID but the county using its right of way.
I live on a street that is a state road and the first 10 feet of our front yard is owned by the state but we get to use it for now. If they ever want to widen the road or add sidewalks they can. We had a neighbor build a nice gated entry to their home and part of it was in the ROW and when they were installing some storm drainage they had to remove sections of it (they were not happy but also didn’t get a permit to build / install as it would have never been approved).
7e investments53 Reviews - Rental Property Investor · Member since 2019 · 66 posts · 24 votes4y
i get all of your answers so far because the attorney said the same thing. and i have no objection to the county claiming a right to their public land. what i have an issue with is that nobody told me about this before i bought it.
as to the post about showing up in title search.....is it my realtor's job to do that or advise me of it?
i feel like for people who are buying their first property....they wouldnt know what to do so isnt that the reason they hire a real estate agent?
and as im typing this, i think im putting too much on my realtor because ethically, i think the owner and his agents should have disclosed it.
and judging by the responses here so far.....theres nothing i can do about this now?
- 4yTom GimerBusiness MemberDMV · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
Be careful who you listen to, @Joshua Ocean.
Sounds like a material fact was known by the seller but not disclosed. The state disclosure form in section 1. Title actually includes this line item -- "F. Is there any study, survey project, or notice that would adversely affect the property?" The attorney is correct in that sellers are not required to provide a disclosure form, but they are required to disclose known material defects.
By including this as a specific line item on the state form, it appears the state views knowledge by a seller of a plan to widen the bed of a road as material, requiring disclosure. It's clearly material to YOU if you would not have purchased the property had you been made aware of it. Non-disclosure of a material fact could lead to seller liability.
IMO, any claim would be against the seller alone. I would consult with a DIFFERENT local real estate attorney for a second opinion.
Gimer Law516 Reviews - 4yTheresa HarrisPro MemberMember since 2019 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
I would talk to your lawyer. It is the seller's fault as he or she knew this was happening and likely why they sold the house. If they got money from the city, even worse. It is one thing for it to happen and you know about it, but for a seller to sell their place AFTER they know this is happening and not tell the buyer, is wrong.
- 4yJay HinrichsBusiness MemberReal Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
Quote from @Tom Gimer:
Be careful who you listen to, @Joshua Ocean.
Sounds like a material fact was known by the seller but not disclosed. The state disclosure form in section 1. Title actually includes this line item -- "F. Is there any study, survey project, or notice that would adversely affect the property?" The attorney is correct in that sellers are not required to provide a disclosure form, but they are required to disclose known material defects.
By including this as a specific line item on the state form, it appears the state views knowledge by a seller of a plan to widen the bed of a road as material, requiring disclosure. It's clearly material to YOU if you would not have purchased the property had you been made aware of it. Non-disclosure of a material fact could lead to seller liability.
IMO, any claim would be against the seller alone. I would consult with a DIFFERENT local real estate attorney for a second opinion.
One thing i see doing business in multiple states.. AS the OP asked shouldn't the realtor have known.. in many of the attorney closing states the attorney just says title is clear and the agents and buyers go with that . I suspect most agents in those areas never get a physical copy of the title commitment I find i have to ask for it in those venues. Out our way they are automatically mailed to the buyer the seller and both agents and lenders just standard practice then as the buyer you have to initial a copy of the title commitment saying you read and understand it.. I just closed a deal in GA and you need an attorney present at the closing so I suspect they rely heavily on the attorney and the agents really have no clue about title reports or title commitments they just take the word of the closing attorney that title is clear.. and in this case as you state most title commitments will have items that are not insured if a physical inspection would disclose it etc.. I know in IL for instance all the deals I did there the real estate agents dont get anywhere near the closing process they just write the initial offer and DUCK. LOL - Real Estate Consultant · Seattle, WA · Member since 2022 · 1k+ posts · 784 votes4y
If I am the Seller and I know the City is widening the road, I look at my required disclosures. They are typically related to my property and my actual knowledge. Using widening a road as an example, my answer is no to most legally required disclosures. No studies have been done on my property, no part of my property is being affected, and I am not aware of adverse impacts (now, if the City were building a nuclear reactor or a moon rocket launch in their right of way abutting my property, I would maybe think twice before answering no). Roads get widened, overpasses get built, tunnels get dug, municipalities give plenty of public notice. It is not on the seller or the title company to disclose municipal projects that have nothing to do with my property. It is in the right of way, someone else’s property. If I know my neighbor is building a 10 foot concrete fence with an ugly finish next year, do I or the title company have to disclose that?
These are common municipal projects that are publicly known for months if not years before they commence. Most affected property owners will know. Most buyers familiar with the area will also know. By the time a property hits the market for sale (and certainly well before the project commences), its market value will have already been adjusted to account for project impacts by the market itself. Maybe that is why it felt like a “good deal”.
There is a point where “right of way risks” are common sense not requiring additional legal disclosures.
- 4yJay HinrichsBusiness MemberReal Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
Quote from @Sergey A. Petrov:
If I am the Seller and I know the City is widening the road, I look at my required disclosures. They are typically related to my property and my actual knowledge. Using widening a road as an example, my answer is no to most legally required disclosures. No studies have been done on my property, no part of my property is being affected, and I am not aware of adverse impacts (now, if the City were building a nuclear reactor or a moon rocket launch in their right of way abutting my property, I would maybe think twice before answering no). Roads get widened, overpasses get built, tunnels get dug, municipalities give plenty of public notice. It is not on the seller or the title company to disclose municipal projects that have nothing to do with my property. It is in the right of way, someone else’s property. If I know my neighbor is building a 10 foot concrete fence with an ugly finish next year, do I or the title company have to disclose that?
These are common municipal projects that are publicly known for months if not years before they commence. Most affected property owners will know. Most buyers familiar with the area will also know. By the time a property hits the market for sale (and certainly well before the project commences), its market value will have already been adjusted to account for project impacts by the market itself. Maybe that is why it felt like a “good deal”.
There is a point where “right of way risks” are common sense not requiring additional legal disclosures.
Municiple projects can be in the planning stages for years or decades and never get built.. I have one going on with a property I own in Lake Oswego . there has been plenty of public notice and since i have the corner lot of the intersection that is going to be affected I have been notified and talked to the city engineer.. this has been going on for 4 years now .. we are going to start this spring.. UT oh no we are not we ran out of money.. in my case there is certainly a need and I am all for the improvements but its hard to disclose to a buyer when something you have no control over is going to happen or if it will actually happen.
- Real Estate Consultant · Seattle, WA · Member since 2022 · 1k+ posts · 784 votes4y
Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
Quote from @Sergey A. Petrov:
If I am the Seller and I know the City is widening the road, I look at my required disclosures. They are typically related to my property and my actual knowledge. Using widening a road as an example, my answer is no to most legally required disclosures. No studies have been done on my property, no part of my property is being affected, and I am not aware of adverse impacts (now, if the City were building a nuclear reactor or a moon rocket launch in their right of way abutting my property, I would maybe think twice before answering no). Roads get widened, overpasses get built, tunnels get dug, municipalities give plenty of public notice. It is not on the seller or the title company to disclose municipal projects that have nothing to do with my property. It is in the right of way, someone else’s property. If I know my neighbor is building a 10 foot concrete fence with an ugly finish next year, do I or the title company have to disclose that?
These are common municipal projects that are publicly known for months if not years before they commence. Most affected property owners will know. Most buyers familiar with the area will also know. By the time a property hits the market for sale (and certainly well before the project commences), its market value will have already been adjusted to account for project impacts by the market itself. Maybe that is why it felt like a “good deal”.
There is a point where “right of way risks” are common sense not requiring additional legal disclosures.
Municiple projects can be in the planning stages for years or decades and never get built.. I have one going on with a property I own in Lake Oswego . there has been plenty of public notice and since i have the corner lot of the intersection that is going to be affected I have been notified and talked to the city engineer.. this has been going on for 4 years now .. we are going to start this spring.. UT oh no we are not we ran out of money.. in my case there is certainly a need and I am all for the improvements but its hard to disclose to a buyer when something you have no control over is going to happen or if it will actually happen.
Exactly! Imminent domain is different. The Seller would have received compensation, there would be a recorded easement or a sale of, at least some, property rights especially if it is a tunnel 60 feet below your property or taking of 10 feet of your property (outside of the right of way). It would show up on title, it would be disclosed by the seller, and, again, it would be a matter of public record.
- 4yJay HinrichsBusiness MemberReal Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
Quote from @Sergey A. Petrov:
Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
Quote from @Sergey A. Petrov:
If I am the Seller and I know the City is widening the road, I look at my required disclosures. They are typically related to my property and my actual knowledge. Using widening a road as an example, my answer is no to most legally required disclosures. No studies have been done on my property, no part of my property is being affected, and I am not aware of adverse impacts (now, if the City were building a nuclear reactor or a moon rocket launch in their right of way abutting my property, I would maybe think twice before answering no). Roads get widened, overpasses get built, tunnels get dug, municipalities give plenty of public notice. It is not on the seller or the title company to disclose municipal projects that have nothing to do with my property. It is in the right of way, someone else’s property. If I know my neighbor is building a 10 foot concrete fence with an ugly finish next year, do I or the title company have to disclose that?
These are common municipal projects that are publicly known for months if not years before they commence. Most affected property owners will know. Most buyers familiar with the area will also know. By the time a property hits the market for sale (and certainly well before the project commences), its market value will have already been adjusted to account for project impacts by the market itself. Maybe that is why it felt like a “good deal”.
There is a point where “right of way risks” are common sense not requiring additional legal disclosures.
Municiple projects can be in the planning stages for years or decades and never get built.. I have one going on with a property I own in Lake Oswego . there has been plenty of public notice and since i have the corner lot of the intersection that is going to be affected I have been notified and talked to the city engineer.. this has been going on for 4 years now .. we are going to start this spring.. UT oh no we are not we ran out of money.. in my case there is certainly a need and I am all for the improvements but its hard to disclose to a buyer when something you have no control over is going to happen or if it will actually happen.
Exactly! Imminent domain is different. The Seller would have received compensation, there would be a recorded easement or a sale of, at least some, property rights especially if it is a tunnel 60 feet below your property or taking of 10 feet of your property (outside of the right of way). It would show up on title, it would be disclosed by the seller, and, again, it would be a matter of public record.
Also its Eminent Domain not imminent I know the OP started with that and we did not clarify that up in the thread
- Real Estate Consultant · Seattle, WA · Member since 2022 · 1k+ posts · 784 votes4y
Yup, good catch. Eminent domains are rarely imminent 😁
- 4yTom GimerBusiness MemberDMV · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
The city/state/responsible agency reached out to the prior owner and expressly advised that they were planning to take a portion of what was currently being used as front lawn and driveway (and perhaps more, fence? walkway? steps? landscaped area?) and widen the road into that area.
Why would they do that? Hmm. Because the plans affect the subject property. Why did the seller not tell the buyer about this? Because the seller would still own the subject property and it would be worth less, perhaps significantly less.
Gimer Law516 Reviews - 4yBruce WoodruffPro MemberContractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
Quote from @Joshua Ocean:
what i have an issue with is that nobody told me about this before i bought it.
All buyers need to do their due diligence. There is so much at risk. I even call the city and ask about open permits and property history. Maybe your realtor should have advised you better, maybe not. A new Realtor might not even know about some of the pitfalls. Ultimately it falls on the end buyer (you) to do all the research necessary.
It's like buying a car without having a Mechanic go over it and getting a Carfax Report.....you're taking a chance....
- Rental Property Investor · East Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes4y
Always always always call and ask your city or municipality about utility balances and any pending actions.
People get so far behind all the representatations of agents et al they don't add a couple phone calls to their basic DD.
- Rental Property Investor · Member since 2019 · 66 posts · 24 votes4y
Quote from @Tom Gimer:
Be careful who you listen to, @Joshua Ocean.
Sounds like a material fact was known by the seller but not disclosed. The state disclosure form in section 1. Title actually includes this line item -- "F. Is there any study, survey project, or notice that would adversely affect the property?" The attorney is correct in that sellers are not required to provide a disclosure form, but they are required to disclose known material defects.
By including this as a specific line item on the state form, it appears the state views knowledge by a seller of a plan to widen the bed of a road as material, requiring disclosure. It's clearly material to YOU if you would not have purchased the property had you been made aware of it. Non-disclosure of a material fact could lead to seller liability.
IMO, any claim would be against the seller alone. I would consult with a DIFFERENT local real estate attorney for a second opinion.
- Rental Property Investor · Member since 2019 · 66 posts · 24 votes4y
I will do that. Thank you so much for your advice!
- Rental Property Investor · Member since 2019 · 66 posts · 24 votes4y
Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
Quote from @Tom Gimer:
Be careful who you listen to, @Joshua Ocean.
Sounds like a material fact was known by the seller but not disclosed. The state disclosure form in section 1. Title actually includes this line item -- "F. Is there any study, survey project, or notice that would adversely affect the property?" The attorney is correct in that sellers are not required to provide a disclosure form, but they are required to disclose known material defects.
By including this as a specific line item on the state form, it appears the state views knowledge by a seller of a plan to widen the bed of a road as material, requiring disclosure. It's clearly material to YOU if you would not have purchased the property had you been made aware of it. Non-disclosure of a material fact could lead to seller liability.
IMO, any claim would be against the seller alone. I would consult with a DIFFERENT local real estate attorney for a second opinion.
One thing i see doing business in multiple states.. AS the OP asked shouldn't the realtor have known.. in many of the attorney closing states the attorney just says title is clear and the agents and buyers go with that . I suspect most agents in those areas never get a physical copy of the title commitment I find i have to ask for it in those venues. Out our way they are automatically mailed to the buyer the seller and both agents and lenders just standard practice then as the buyer you have to initial a copy of the title commitment saying you read and understand it.. I just closed a deal in GA and you need an attorney present at the closing so I suspect they rely heavily on the attorney and the agents really have no clue about title reports or title commitments they just take the word of the closing attorney that title is clear.. and in this case as you state most title commitments will have items that are not insured if a physical inspection would disclose it etc.. I know in IL for instance all the deals I did there the real estate agents dont get anywhere near the closing process they just write the initial offer and DUCK. LOL - Rental Property Investor · Member since 2019 · 66 posts · 24 votes4y
Gotcha. THank you for your input. So what do you think my next steps should be?
- Rental Property Investor · Member since 2019 · 66 posts · 24 votes4y
Quote from @Tom Gimer:
The city/state/responsible agency reached out to the prior owner and expressly advised that they were planning to take a portion of what was currently being used as front lawn and driveway (and perhaps more, fence? walkway? steps? landscaped area?) and widen the road into that area.
Why would they do that? Hmm. Because the plans affect the subject property. Why did the seller not tell the buyer about this? Because the seller would still own the subject property and it would be worth less, perhaps significantly less.
- Rental Property Investor · Member since 2019 · 66 posts · 24 votes4y
Quote from @Joshua Ocean:
Quote from @Tom Gimer:
The city/state/responsible agency reached out to the prior owner and expressly advised that they were planning to take a portion of what was currently being used as front lawn and driveway (and perhaps more, fence? walkway? steps? landscaped area?) and widen the road into that area.
Why would they do that? Hmm. Because the plans affect the subject property. Why did the seller not tell the buyer about this? Because the seller would still own the subject property and it would be worth less, perhaps significantly less.
Exactly. It doesnt feel right to me that they did that. Its a dirty way to do real estate in my.opinion and people should be protected against this. Do you have any advice on how i should handle this?
- Rental Property Investor · Member since 2019 · 66 posts · 24 votes4y
Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
Quote from @Joshua Ocean:
what i have an issue with is that nobody told me about this before i bought it.
All buyers need to do their due diligence. There is so much at risk. I even call the city and ask about open permits and property history. Maybe your realtor should have advised you better, maybe not. A new Realtor might not even know about some of the pitfalls. Ultimately it falls on the end buyer (you) to do all the research necessary.
It's like buying a car without having a Mechanic go over it and getting a Carfax Report.....you're taking a chance....
- Rental Property Investor · Member since 2019 · 66 posts · 24 votes4y
I do agree that it is on me to do my due dilligence. It is a hard lesson learned and i will make sure to do exactly that in the future. As of my current situation...do you have any advice on what i should/can do?
- Rental Property Investor · Member since 2019 · 66 posts · 24 votes4y
Quote from @Steve Vaughan:
Always always always call and ask your city or municipality about utility balances and any pending actions.
People get so far behind all the representatations of agents et al they don't add a couple phone calls to their basic DD.
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