Inherited Building next to lawyer - he thinks he owns part

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Inherited Building next to lawyer - he thinks he owns part

Alan Robson
Royal Oak, MI · Member since 2017 · 24 posts · 12 votes

Hello! I inherited a building from my late mother who had a tenant. That tenant is now gone thanks to COVID (they went out of business). I am trying to find a new tenant, and I am fielding questions regarding property lines. I have a scheduled survey to be done in 8 weeks due to demand (very small town) and until that happens I will not know where my property lines fall. There are no records of the boundaries at city hall. When my mother purchased the property in 2007, the next door neighbor told her that he and his law office own up until a certain point. She never got a survey done, and he told her "if you get a survey done, you will be pissing a lot of people off in the neighborhood" whatever that means. 

Obviously the survey is scheduled, but he is scaring off potential tenants. As they tour the property, the comes out of his office and tells them that he owns the land up until my building, to which people are turned off. 


My question is this: is there any way he can fight a legal survey with some fancy legal work in regards to encumbrances, easements, or the like if the survey is not in his favor and is in mine? 

Thanks!

1Reply
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Peter Walther
Specialist · Winter Springs, FL · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 747 votes
6y

Do you know if your mother received a title policy when she purchased the property?  If so do you have a copy?  If not go back to the title agent that closed the transaction if they're still around and see if you can get a copy.

Does the neighbor have a survey?  If so ask to see a copy.

While you're doing that get your own survey done, make sure he/she knows there may be a dispute with the neighbor so extra attention can be paid to that common line.

If the neighbor disagrees with your surveyor's findings submit a claim in writing to your title underwriter, not the agent that issued the policy, but the underwriter whose policy was issued.  You should be able to get contact information from the agent or look at the policy and there should be contact in there under the Conditions and Stipulations section or look at the underwriters web site.  Let me know if you have any questions.

10Reply
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  • Timothy W.
    Attorney · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2008 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    6y

    This is an offline question to your lawyer.  

    4Reply
  • Scott Mac
    Austin, TX · Member since 2019 · 5k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    6y

    You might want to look into a restraining order (contact your attorney).

    The restraining order business is probably still in full swing--in some areas they hand them out like Halloween candy.

    Good Luck!

    5Reply
  • Alan Robson
    OP
    Royal Oak, MI · Member since 2017 · 24 posts · 12 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Timothy W.:

    This is an offline question to your lawyer.  

    I honestly thought I could come to a nice community and get a bit of guidance from industry experts before I went somewhere where there were billable hours. Thanks for proving me wrong, though!

    2Reply
  • Alan Robson
    OP
    Royal Oak, MI · Member since 2017 · 24 posts · 12 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Scott Mac:

    You might want to look into a restraining order (contact your attorney).

    The restraining order business is probably still in full swing--in some areas they hand them out like Halloween candy.

    Good Luck!

    Thanks Scott! What would this target? Him leaving my prospective tenants alone? I just want to make sure he isn't "grandfathered" into rights of my property. 

    1Reply
  • Christian D.
    Real Estate Broker · New York, NY · Member since 2013 · 125 posts · 63 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Alan Robson:
    Originally posted by @Timothy W.:

    This is an offline question to your lawyer.  

    I honestly thought I could come to a nice community and get a bit of guidance from industry experts before I went somewhere where there were billable hours. Thanks for proving me wrong, though!

    I'm surprised the boundaries and property lines are not listed on the county's website or at least on file. Was a lot line adjustment agreement signed at any point between your mother and the neighbor?

    1Reply
  • Alan Robson
    OP
    Royal Oak, MI · Member since 2017 · 24 posts · 12 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Christian D.:
    Originally posted by @Alan Robson:
    Originally posted by @Timothy W.:

    This is an offline question to your lawyer.  

    I honestly thought I could come to a nice community and get a bit of guidance from industry experts before I went somewhere where there were billable hours. Thanks for proving me wrong, though!

    I'm surprised the boundaries and property lines are not listed on the county's website or at least on file. Was a lot line adjustment agreement signed at any point between your mother and the neighbor?

    Thanks for the response Christian! No, a lot line adjustment agreement was not signed. She often just let him dictate the relationship for the most part. Very small town (less than 2,000 people) so an atmosphere of nonchalant agreements took place. Is it normal to not have anything recorded with the city? 

    1Reply
  • Christian D.
    Real Estate Broker · New York, NY · Member since 2013 · 125 posts · 63 votes
    6y

    @Alan Robson Not entirely, but are there any documents on this property recorded with the town? Deed, mortgage documents, etc? If no formal lot line adjustment agreement was signed between the parties, and it was just a verbal "agreement" I would continue with the survey, once you have that hopefully it will clarify things.

    1Reply
  • Alan Robson
    OP
    Royal Oak, MI · Member since 2017 · 24 posts · 12 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Christian D.:

    @Alan Robson Not entirely, but are there any documents on this property recorded with the town? Deed, mortgage documents, etc? If no formal lot line adjustment agreement was signed between the parties, and it was just a verbal "agreement" I would continue with the survey, once you have that hopefully it will clarify things.

    Thank you very much for explaining. Yeah, it's always been something on my to-do list to get that survey done. I'm just concerned he'll try to override whatever the solution is in order to acquire more property than he's allowed simply because it's been "his" for a certain length of time.  

    0Reply
  • Peter Walther
    Specialist · Winter Springs, FL · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 747 votes
    6y

    Do you know if your mother received a title policy when she purchased the property?  If so do you have a copy?  If not go back to the title agent that closed the transaction if they're still around and see if you can get a copy.

    Does the neighbor have a survey?  If so ask to see a copy.

    While you're doing that get your own survey done, make sure he/she knows there may be a dispute with the neighbor so extra attention can be paid to that common line.

    If the neighbor disagrees with your surveyor's findings submit a claim in writing to your title underwriter, not the agent that issued the policy, but the underwriter whose policy was issued.  You should be able to get contact information from the agent or look at the policy and there should be contact in there under the Conditions and Stipulations section or look at the underwriters web site.  Let me know if you have any questions.

    10Reply
  • Scott Mac
    Austin, TX · Member since 2019 · 5k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Alan Robson:
    Originally posted by @Scott Mac:

    You might want to look into a restraining order (contact your attorney).

    The restraining order business is probably still in full swing--in some areas they hand them out like Halloween candy.

    Good Luck!

    Thanks Scott! What would this target? Him leaving my prospective tenants alone? I just want to make sure he isn't "grandfathered" into rights of my property. 

    Talk to a local attorney and see if it's feasible, if it's intelligent to do so, and if so, what do they advise you to do.

    It's probably better to get proper personalized legal advise on this, vs. online advise.

    That way you know you are following the law 100%.

    Talk to your attorney and follow his/her directions about this.

    You probably don't want to draw a lawsuit from your attorney neighbor for X, Y or Z (because it could be expensive for you to fight it, and for him zero cost).

    Perhaps just waiting for the survey is most intelligent.

    Talk to your attorney and follow his/her directions about this.

    Good Luck!

    1Reply
  • Christian D.
    Real Estate Broker · New York, NY · Member since 2013 · 125 posts · 63 votes
    6y

    @Alan Robson

    The last thing I'll say is many states have laws that allow a person who uses another's land for a long enough time period to actually gain a legal right to continue to use the land, and in some cases, even gain ownership of that land. I don't know how long this has been going on, but if there is no formal lot line agreement signed, I would deny any past verbal agreements existed should your neighbor try to use that as an argument if things escalate.

    3Reply
  • Sylvia B.
    Rental Property Investor · Douglas County, MO · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    6y

    Have you talked to the county tax assessor? They will have some type of record to justify their tax assessment.

    0Reply
  • Account Closed
    Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Alan Robson:

    Hello! I inherited a building from my late mother who had a tenant. That tenant is now gone thanks to COVID (they went out of business). I am trying to find a new tenant, and I am fielding questions regarding property lines. I have a scheduled survey to be done in 8 weeks due to demand (very small town) and until that happens I will not know where my property lines fall. There are no records of the boundaries at city hall. When my mother purchased the property in 2007, the next door neighbor told her that he and his law office own up until a certain point. She never got a survey done, and he told her "if you get a survey done, you will be pissing a lot of people off in the neighborhood" whatever that means. 

    Obviously the survey is scheduled, but he is scaring off potential tenants. As they tour the property, the comes out of his office and tells them that he owns the land up until my building, to which people are turned off. 


    My question is this: is there any way he can fight a legal survey with some fancy legal work in regards to encumbrances, easements, or the like if the survey is not in his favor and is in mine? 

    Thanks!

     Property line disputes are very real and unfortunately you are going to bat with a lawyer. In many places, including lands owned by the federal government, there is a thing called Adverse Possession. Adverse Possession of property can occur when one person uses the land of another without objection for a certain period of time (20 years in WI). If that use continues for the time, the user can make a claim to title. What you need to find out in addition to the survey (assuming the possibility) are two things:

    1) How long has the lawyer been using your property

    2) Did your mother ever raise an objection

    I would absolutely be obtaining a survey if I was you and the off-mark comment about it from the "neighbors" would make the urgency to obtain one greater, not less, for me. Then, if an encroachment or illegal use is present, I would serve the lawyer a demand to cease immediately. I would start with a friendly verbal request, and then follow with a formal written notice, I would not delay in any case. What would scare the crap out of me is to go up against a lawyer who figured out how to steal my property - I would act from the position of assuming the lawyer intends to do just that, and hope it is nothing more than a friendly/unfriendly misunderstanding.

    Good luck.

    2Reply
  • Timothy W.
    Attorney · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2008 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Alan Robson:
    Originally posted by @Timothy W.:

    This is an offline question to your lawyer.  

    I honestly thought I could come to a nice community and get a bit of guidance from industry experts before I went somewhere where there were billable hours. Thanks for proving me wrong, though! 

    That was advice from an expert and I said it very nicely compared to what I was thinking.  You're in a property dispute with a licensed attorney.  He's going to crush you.  What are you going to do, print out these responses and bring it to court?  You need the advice of your own licensed attorney.

    5Reply
  • Charlie MacPherson
    China, ME · Member since 2014 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    6y

    @Alan Robson The thing that jumps out at me is what @Christian D. mentioned.  It's called "adverse possession".

    I'm not a lawyer and this isn't legal advice.  It's my own opinion from the training I've taken in both Mass and Maine - the two states where I'm licensed.  Your state's laws could well be different.

    The general idea of adverse possession is that if Person A uses the property of Person B and that use is hostile, actual, open, exclusive (you might have an "out" there), continuous and notorious for 20 years, Person A can go to land court and make a claim on the property that he has been using. 

    The "out" for exclusive use is that if your Mom used that same piece of property too, it wasn't the lawyer's exclusive use and that should defeat a claim of adverse possession.

    Here's a good article: https://www.nolo.com/legal-enc...

    My first instinct would be to break the chain of continuous use by setting up a "no trespassing" sign and taking a date stamped photo.  Maybe include that day's newspaper in the photo for a little added oomph.  Print and archive for future use.

    The risk is that the lawyer neighbor will go ballistic when he sees that sign, so I think it's probably wise to get your own attorney on board ASAP and see what they say.  The veiled threat about "pissing a lot of people off" is a red flag.  He sounds like a bully and you should be prepared for that.

    Depending on what your attorney says, I'd start by trying to make peace.  Kill him with kindness and see if you can work something out.  Nobody wants an angry, vengeful lawyer for a neighbor.  If that doesn't work, you might have to go to the extent of calling the police and having him "trespassed" from the property - meaning that further trespass will subject him to arrest.  A restraining order might also be needed.

    Because there's at least the potential for this situation going nuclear, start keeping contemporaneous notes of every interaction.  Securely archive all emails and postal mail.  Store it all with the idea that you may have to bring it before a judge, because it could go in that direction. 

    Hope for the best and plan for the worst - and good luck!

    6Reply
  • Peter Walther
    Specialist · Winter Springs, FL · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 747 votes
    6y

    Until you have a survey you have no idea where the common lot line is, according to your surveyor.  Therefore you have no idea if your neighbor may be using your property.  You can't really tell him not to use your property if you don't know where your property line is, can you?

    0Reply
  • Account Closed
    Contractor · Placerville, CA · Member since 2019 · 85 posts · 66 votes
    6y

    @Alan Robson pay attention to Merritt's post. Adverse possession laws suck. Read up on your states laws because time frames are important. Rural areas are notorious for this stuff. Usually there is a "monument" that becomes the starting point for the surveyor. A good surveyor that's familiar with the area is also very beneficial. Good luck, I've been through this and it's pita. Disclaimer I'm not a lawyer.

    2Reply
  • Rusty N.
    Member since 2019 · 14 posts · 14 votes
    6y

    If what he’s saying isn’t true it’s called slander of title

    2Reply
  • Andrew B.
    Rockaway, NJ · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Alan Robson:
    Originally posted by @Timothy W.:

    This is an offline question to your lawyer.  

    I honestly thought I could come to a nice community and get a bit of guidance from industry experts before I went somewhere where there were billable hours. Thanks for proving me wrong, though!


    There are some situations where the answer truly is, "go see a lawyer." Honestly, I don't have a good answer for you either. He might be able to try to claim adverse possession, which is when you claim someone else's property as your own because you have maintained it and used it as your own, with no pushback, for many years. However, since this is a lawyer you're dealing with, I suggest consulting a lawyer.
    3Reply
  • Alan Robson
    OP
    Royal Oak, MI · Member since 2017 · 24 posts · 12 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Peter Walther:

    Do you know if your mother received a title policy when she purchased the property?  If so do you have a copy?  If not go back to the title agent that closed the transaction if they're still around and see if you can get a copy.

    Does the neighbor have a survey?  If so ask to see a copy.

    While you're doing that get your own survey done, make sure he/she knows there may be a dispute with the neighbor so extra attention can be paid to that common line.

    If the neighbor disagrees with your surveyor's findings submit a claim in writing to your title underwriter, not the agent that issued the policy, but the underwriter whose policy was issued.  You should be able to get contact information from the agent or look at the policy and there should be contact in there under the Conditions and Stipulations section or look at the underwriters web site.  Let me know if you have any questions.

     Hey Peter, thanks for the reply. I wouldn't have any idea if she did, but that is an excellent idea. I will definitely track them down. This is excellent, and gives me a starting point. 

    0Reply
  • Alan Robson
    OP
    Royal Oak, MI · Member since 2017 · 24 posts · 12 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Scott Mac:
    Originally posted by @Alan Robson:
    Originally posted by @Scott Mac:

    You might want to look into a restraining order (contact your attorney).

    The restraining order business is probably still in full swing--in some areas they hand them out like Halloween candy.

    Good Luck!

    Thanks Scott! What would this target? Him leaving my prospective tenants alone? I just want to make sure he isn't "grandfathered" into rights of my property. 

    Talk to a local attorney and see if it's feasible, if it's intelligent to do so, and if so, what do they advise you to do.

    It's probably better to get proper personalized legal advise on this, vs. online advise.

    That way you know you are following the law 100%.

    Talk to your attorney and follow his/her directions about this.

    You probably don't want to draw a lawsuit from your attorney neighbor for X, Y or Z (because it could be expensive for you to fight it, and for him zero cost).

    Perhaps just waiting for the survey is most intelligent.

    Talk to your attorney and follow his/her directions about this.

    Good Luck!

    Thank you Scott! Yes, that is the vibe I'm getting from most of these replies, and what I had assumed going into it. Get the survey done, and involve my own lawyer obviously. I just wanted to see if anyone might have known that it would be a mute point since he's (the neighbor lawyer) been claiming it's his for over 10 years. 

    1Reply
  • Alan Robson
    OP
    Royal Oak, MI · Member since 2017 · 24 posts · 12 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Christian D.:

    @Alan Robson

    The last thing I'll say is many states have laws that allow a person who uses another's land for a long enough time period to actually gain a legal right to continue to use the land, and in some cases, even gain ownership of that land. I don't know how long this has been going on, but if there is no formal lot line agreement signed, I would deny any past verbal agreements existed should your neighbor try to use that as an argument if things escalate.

     I would say it's been going on for at least 10 years. I have no idea if it's been going on longer from the previous owner of the building, but as long as it's been ours, it's been 10 years. He has never physically used the part of land, just said it was his. Thanks for the helpful response, buddy. 

    0Reply
  • Peter Walther
    Specialist · Winter Springs, FL · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 747 votes
    6y

    You're welcome Alan.  I've dealt with many boundary line disputes over the years, many the result of simple disagreements or confusion between surveyors.  Hopefully once you have some accurate information you can talk with the neighbor rationally about how to resolve the disagreement, if there is one.  Let me know if there is anything I can do to help.

    0Reply
  • Alan Robson
    OP
    Royal Oak, MI · Member since 2017 · 24 posts · 12 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Sylvia B.:

    Have you talked to the county tax assessor? They will have some type of record to justify their tax assessment.

     Hi Sylvia, thanks for your response! Will the tax assessment include any property line information for this dispute? I know my parcel number already, but I'm not sure if the tax assessor will include any information I can use to help my fight with this attorney. Thanks again!

    0Reply
  • Tchaka Owen
    Real Estate Agent · Merritt Island, FL · Member since 2017 · 986 posts · 1k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Alan Robson:
    Originally posted by @Christian D.:

    @Alan Robson Not entirely, but are there any documents on this property recorded with the town? Deed, mortgage documents, etc? If no formal lot line adjustment agreement was signed between the parties, and it was just a verbal "agreement" I would continue with the survey, once you have that hopefully it will clarify things.

    Thank you very much for explaining. Yeah, it's always been something on my to-do list to get that survey done. I'm just concerned he'll try to override whatever the solution is in order to acquire more property than he's allowed simply because it's been "his" for a certain length of time.  

    Hopefully this has brought you full circle to understand the reason the advice provided by @Timothy W. is most sound.

    The vast majority of us on BP are not attorneys, we don't live in your village, don't know how things work there, don't know the judge and/or any relationship s/he may have with the attorney. The attorney you're about to hire does. 

    1Reply
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