BEWARE: How Cost Segregation is sold to you

BEWARE: How Cost Segregation is sold to you

Michael PlaksPro Member
Tax Accountant / Enrolled Agent · Houston, TX · Member since 2014 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes

My client, let's call him Paul, was not happy to owe the IRS $100k - the tax penalty of having a successful flipping/wholesaling operation. So, based on his buddy's advice (sounds familiar?), he ordered a cost segregation study on his 20 rental SFHs. Paul was pretty upset with me when I informed him that he still owed the IRS. He expected to erase all of his taxes, because, according to the cost segregation firm he hired, they created "$600k in cost seg tax savings" for him!

Indeed, their report shows an average savings of $30k per property. Times 20 properties - yep, $600k protected from the evil Uncle Sam and back in the investor's pocket! Don't know about you, but I would LOVE to save $600k on taxes. 

Now, shall we look a little closer? Here is one page from the cost seg report, for one of Paul's houses.

1. Yes, the number circled in red is $30,740, and it was sold to Paul as his savings. But what that number represents is the lifetime sum of the annual savings - i.e. the total of the last column! This is what Paul would receive over 28 years of depreciation. What can he claim now, on his 2019 tax return? Only the current year savings $2,868, plus we can retroactively claim the two past years, 2017 and 2018. Together, this is less than $9k in savings - a far cry from the $30k.

2. But let's look at this $2,868 "tax savings" for 2019. How was it figured out? I'll tell you how. It's 40% of $7,171. First, what is 40%? I could sort of understand this rate if the property was in CA with its insane state tax. But this property is in FL, with no state income tax! Paul's tax bracket is 24%, reducing his alleged 40% tax savings almost in half!

3. The most troubling part, if you have not noticed it yet, is that the 40% is applied to $7,171. $7,171 is the total depreciation for the year. It is NOT the cost segregation savings - which is $3,317, less than half! Without cost segregation, Paul still had $3,855 in depreciation, per the 3rd column. Cost segregation increased it by $3,317 - and that is the number that should count!

4. The real number of Paul's savings for 2019 for this property is $3,317 x 24% = $796.  Yes, only $796, as opposed to $2,868.

5. I'm afraid you still do not appreciate the extent of deception on this report. Let me show you. Look at the red numbers circled by my blue pen. This is what they mean: starting from year 6, cost segregation creates negative tax effect - i.e. you pay MORE taxes than you would've paid without cost segregation! 

In case you're wondering WTH - it is exactly how cost segregation is supposed to work! They tell you it "creates" more depreciation, right? They lie. All you do is you accelerate depreciation! You do take a whole lot more depreciation in the first 5 years, as the table correctly shows - but you have to rob your future years in order to do so.
Cost segregation does not magically create additional depreciation deductions. It merely lets you take depreciation earlier.

And now look at what the last column of the table shows. It assures you that you continue to generate over $1,000 in "savings" every year! Not at all! This is simply $2,737 of remaining depreciation per year, times the inflated 40% rate. Without cost segregation, the remaining depreciation per year would've been $3,855.

6. This particular property was placed in service in 2017. Some of Paul's 20 properties were placed in service in 2018 and 2019, giving him just 1 or 2 years of savings today. And some properties were not in service until 2020 - meaning no immediate tax impact at all.

To recap, here is the cost segregation sales pitch:

  • You will get over $600k in "tax savings" from our report!

And here is the reality:

  • $600k is the total depreciation over the 28-yr lifetime of Paul's properties, times the inflated 40% tax rate
  • this total depreciation would've been taken over 28 years either way, with or without cost segregation; cost segregation only shifts more of it towards the first 5 years
  • the actual tax savings for Paul were $35k for this year, with another $55k coming over the next 3 years (your mileage will vary)
  • if he sells his properties, as opposed to 1031 exchange, he will have to return all these savings to the IRS at the time of sale

So, am I just anti-cost-segregation, you would ask? Absolutely not. Cost segregation is an excellent tax strategy when applied correctly. For Paul it was still pretty helpful, since he qualified as a real estate professional. For other investors, it could've been a waste of money and effort. Consult your tax accountant before doing it.

My problem is not with cost segregation. My problem is with selling Paul on $600k "tax savings" when in reality he only received $35k.

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Natalie KolodijBusiness Member
Moderator
Tax Strategist| National Tax Educator| Accepting New Clients · Member since 2014 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
6y

Well this is what I tell people to think about- Long term. 

There's a reason syndicated deals and REITS, DST's all do a 5-7 year hold.

If you plan to keep this property a lifetime- and you take 50% of it's life's deductions up front.....In those later years as presumably your rents go up, income should be higher...you can have more taxable income. 

Cost seg can be a great tool for people -but the BIG PICTURE needs to be looked at. 

Excellent post @Michael Plaks

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Basit SiddiqiBusiness Member
    Accountant · New York, NY · Member since 2015 · 8k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    6y

    @Michael Plaks

    There is a time and a place for a cost seg analysis.

    What I get upset is that it is marketed to everyone as if everyone will benefit equally from it.

  • Accountant · NH · Member since 2019 · 269 posts · 288 votes
    6y

    Does this cost seg guy also work in NH? 

    I agree with all of this 100%. I have exactly one client that uses cost segs on everything he buys, for him it makes perfect sense. For most... They are being sold snake oil. Two in the last few months approached me with sample cost segs on their properties.... One was already in a net operating loss position, the others were passive investors who already had net passive losses. The cost seg was presented to them at a tax rate savings of 45%. But they are in a no income tax state, all in the 22/24% brackets. Also more if there was income, they would have benefitted from a QBI deduction, slashing that effective federal rate by 20%.

    In summary, as Michael noted....please go and have a conversation with your CPA before forking over thousands (cost seg is not cheap) for something that may create no overall benefit, or at least not a benefit at the level that is being sold to you.

  • Natalie KolodijBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Tax Strategist| National Tax Educator| Accepting New Clients · Member since 2014 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    6y

    Well this is what I tell people to think about- Long term. 

    There's a reason syndicated deals and REITS, DST's all do a 5-7 year hold.

    If you plan to keep this property a lifetime- and you take 50% of it's life's deductions up front.....In those later years as presumably your rents go up, income should be higher...you can have more taxable income. 

    Cost seg can be a great tool for people -but the BIG PICTURE needs to be looked at. 

    Excellent post @Michael Plaks

  • Accountant / Attorney · San Juan, PR · Member since 2017 · 67 posts · 171 votes
    6y

    Spot on, nice post.  And I'll add:  It also gets sold to people who cannot use the losses, usually due to PAL situation.  Great tool.....sometimes.

  • Michael PlaksPro Member
    OP
    Tax Accountant / Enrolled Agent · Houston, TX · Member since 2014 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @John Hyre:

    Spot on, nice post.  And I'll add:  It also gets sold to people who cannot use the losses, usually due to PAL situation.  Great tool.....sometimes.

    Exactly. I alluded to that when I mentioned that my client did qualify for the RE Pro status. If he did not - he would have received $0 tax benefit, only the cost of doing the study.

  • Austin, TX · Member since 2019 · 5k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    6y

    Can you guys come up with a formula to predict yearly savings (or an approximate range), or a range rule of thumb based on something?

    example, (If X is < Y and Z > (ab), etc... then possibly advantageous, otherwise probably not.)

    That might help people to make a go no/go on bothering to consider this option.

  • Accountant · NH · Member since 2019 · 269 posts · 288 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Scott Mac:

    Can you guys come up with a formula to predict yearly savings (or an approximate range), or a range rule of thumb based on something?

    example, (If X is < Y and Z > (ab), etc... then possibly advantageous, otherwise probably not.)

    That might help people to make a go no/go on bothering to consider this option.

    It is very much client situation dependent. One very loose rule of thumb I seen thrown around on occasion is a property cost in excess of $1m. But then say that is wholly owned by a passive investor with no other passive income, no benefit. Maybe all the investors are passive on a $2m property, but many of them have other sources of passive income they could offset with the results. Even the general rule is not useful in many situations - it is well worth the cost of a 15 minute call to your CPA.

    Part of the $1m rule is due to the cost of a cost seg - not uncommon to run $5-10k, the time value of money benefit needs to outweigh this initial cost, because as originally discussed in this thread, this is all timing - you would have received the deduction eventually anyways. The $5-10k spent on the cost seg is essentially a cost of "capital" to pay less tax now, but you'll still pay more later. There are statistical based cost segs providers that do not do the full report unless you get audited that are significantly cheaper, but I won't address those as I have had no clients use them. All of my clients that have used cost seg to significant benefit were on projects that were $2m - $40m, so none of them are that concerned about saving a few bucks.

  • Michael PlaksPro Member
    OP
    Tax Accountant / Enrolled Agent · Houston, TX · Member since 2014 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    6y

    It's actually more interesting with syndications. Yes, cost segregation boosts depreciation which creates losses which, in turn, keep the passive investors happy. But only temporarily. 

    • When the property is sold 5-7 years later, all of that depreciation, including cost seg boost, comes back as capital gains. 
    • And it is taxed at higher depreciation recapture rates, not long-term capital gains. 
    • And it can add the 3.8% surcharge known as NIIT - net investment income tax
    • And since it is a syndication, 1031 exchanges are not available to individual investors, so they are stuck with the high tax bill from the final year of the syndication.

    Which should raise a question of whether cost segregation is beneficial for syndications at all. The answer is, as always, it depends. Here're the benefits of cost seg for syndications:

    1. It makes the syndicator look sophisticated and caring. All his passive investors get K1s with negative numbers, with no tax impact up to the year of sale. Otherwise, he would have to deal with all of his doctors and scientists partners who are already mad about their sky-high taxes and would totally flip if their "tax-advantaged" investment adds even $100 to their taxes. Optics matter.

    2. It legitimately produces some modest "time value of money" savings. You get a deduction now and return it 5-7 years later. Still savings.

    3. There could be some rate arbitrage at play. You get a deduction at your ordinary rate and return it at depreciation recapture rates. Depreciation recapture rate is capped at 25%, so if your tax bracket is higher - you win. 

    But not as much as you might think! A significant portion of cost segregation pulls out 5- and 7-yr property. Depreciation on these classes of property is recaptured at ordinary rates and is NOT capped at 25%! Advanced tax maneuvering at sale time can somewhat mitigate this effect thru allocations. This is high end stuff though.

    4. Additional side benefits of cost segregation such as partial dispositions when you upgrade your property.

    5. Conversion of extra depreciation into capital gains can benefit some individual investors. Specifically, those who have excess capital losses from the stock market (current or past years' carry-forwards) and those who are open to rolling their gains into Qualified Opportunity Zones funds.

    If I forgot something - please add to my list.

  • Accountant · NH · Member since 2019 · 269 posts · 288 votes
    6y

    Michael - one additional benefit of cost segs to syndications can be the de minimis safe harbor deduction. This heavily depends on what type of property it is, but I have a client group of hotels where whenever they place a hotel in service, cost seg lets them pull several million into de minimis safe harbor expenditures. With de minimis, since nothing is capitalized, you have some permanent rate arbitrage in the ordinary deduction upon placing in service, then no recapture on these assets on the sale of the hotel - more is capital gain. Of course this will also depend heavily on the purchase price allocation, but often these items are not specifically addressed in the agreement.

    Hotels are often the shining example of a perfect cost seg, most folks won't get anywhere near the de minimis or other results as you get for a hotel.

  • Michael PlaksPro Member
    OP
    Tax Accountant / Enrolled Agent · Houston, TX · Member since 2014 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Kory Reynolds:

    Michael - one additional benefit of cost segs to syndications can be the de minimis safe harbor deduction. 

    Hotels are often the shining example of a perfect cost seg, most folks won't get anywhere near the de minimis or other results as you get for a hotel.

    One day I might want to debate the legitimacy of de-minimis thru cost segregation, but today is not that day. :)

    Agree on hotels and STRs - cost segregation there is often sweet. Also reduces self-employment tax.

  • Member since 2018 · 5 posts · 9 votes
    6y

    @Michael Plaks agree that these models are misleading because they always (for some reason) assume the taxpayer is in the highest bracket. I deal with NMTC deals frequently and the models are even more egregious. 

    Question regarding the proposal you posted - why wasn't bonus claimed on the 15-yr and 5-yr property?

  • Michael PlaksPro Member
    OP
    Tax Accountant / Enrolled Agent · Houston, TX · Member since 2014 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Eric Brunner:

    Question regarding the proposal you posted - why wasn't bonus claimed on the 15-yr and 5-yr property?

    Good eye :)

    First - this is the cost segregation study model, not the actual depreciation schedule.

    Second - it is used property placed in service before Sept 2017, therefore not eligible

  • Member since 2018 · 5 posts · 9 votes
    6y

    That's what I was thinking @Michael Plaks, just assumed everyone putting assets in place that year would've "waited" until after Sept 27... ;-)

  • Andrew FreedBusiness Member
    Investor · Worcester, MA · Member since 2020 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    5y

    @Michael Plaks - Great insight, I appreciate the knowledge. I was considering a cost seg on a few properties but I am not a real estate professional hence I was questioning the usefulness. Your walk through of the report made it a lot more clear. Thank you. 

  • Real Estate Consultant · Denver, CO · Member since 2021 · 661 posts · 389 votes
    4y

    Hi All, 

    What @Michael Plaks is really pointing out here is that some cost segregation companies do not ask enough questions before sending out their estimates and give the investor false hope. Then again, many cost seg reps don't know enough to ask the right questions. Michael's example is a perfect example of when a cost seg study should not be done. When I expanded the sample study, although I could not read all the numbers well, it became obvious that a study in this situation would do the client no good. First, the depreciable basis of $106K is too low to justify a study even if the client's tax rate was higher. Then, if you take into consideration that the client is in the 24% tax bracket, his benefit would be far less than someone in the 39% bracket. And, yes, with no state tax in Florida, the benefit would only apply to federal income tax which is usually the bigger tax number anyway. Furthermore, as Michael pointed out if this is a passive investment, any benefit would most likely only apply to the income from that property. I go back to what I said earlier, the person suggesting this cost segregation study did not ask enough questions or they would have told the client it was not in the person's best interest to go forward and explain why that was true. I always give the client the estimate after I have asked the important questions and then tell them they need to discuss it with their CPA/EA/tax professional or I arrange a conference call to go over the estimate with the client and tax pro. 

    I have worked with EAs for many years and understand the value they bring to clients. They can actually represent you in tax court if ever needed. My understanding is that CPAs cannot. Michael, at some time you might want to do a post to the forum letting people know more about the value EAs bring to the table. 

  • Metro NY + New Bedford · Member since 2022 · 294 posts · 216 votes
    4y

    Well done, Michael!

  • Michael PlaksPro Member
    OP
    Tax Accountant / Enrolled Agent · Houston, TX · Member since 2014 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    4y
    Quote from @Bonnie Griffin Kaake:

    I have worked with EAs for many years and understand the value they bring to clients. They can actually represent you in tax court if ever needed. My understanding is that CPAs cannot. Michael, at some time you might want to do a post to the forum letting people know more about the value EAs bring to the table. 

    CPAs and EAs can both represent taxpayers before all levels of the IRS: audits, collections and appeals. Neither group is allowed to practice before the Tax Court - that requires taking a special Tax Court exam for non-attorneys. Very few of EAs and CPAs choose to take this exam and practice before the Tax Court. Also, it's very seldom needed, as almost all IRS disputes are resolved without taking the IRS to court.

    EAs and CPAs are very similar when it comes to their tax-related skills and rights. Typically (but not always) CPAs have more background in accounting, and EAs have more background in IRS representation. Here's an older posts explaining the differences: https://www.biggerpockets.com/...

  • Chris SeveneyBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Investor · VA · Member since 2015 · 21k+ posts · 19k+ votes
    4y

    @Michael Plaks

    This was an awesome post.

    So basically he accelerated $1750 per property due to segregation - how much does it cost to do a cost seg? At the end of the day is it even worth it on SIngle family residential properties ?

    7e investments53 Reviews
  • Julio GonzalezPro Member
    Specialist · West Palm Beach, FL · Member since 2008 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    4y

    @Chris Seveney I have seen many clients benefit from a cost segregation study on a single family home, but cost seg definitely is not one size fits all. There are a lot of factors to consider. A big one being the purchase price of the home. Some others being the land valuation of the property (ex. if it's a beach front property where the land is very valuable, the benefits of a cost seg study are much lower and may not make sense), how long you intend to hold the property (I recommend a minimum of 2 years to be able to benefit from a cost seg study), if you plan to do renovations, is your property currently cash flowing or do you have negative cash flow (if it has negative cash flow, I don't recommend a cost seg study), do you have REPS status, etc. As Bonnie mentioned above, it's crucial that a cost seg company asks a lot of questions to understand the entirety of your situation to determine if it's beneficial for you or not.

  • Rental Property Investor · Weslaco, TX · Member since 2020 · 58 posts · 17 votes
    4y

    Thank you for all the useful tips about details of cost segregation. I am considering doing a cost segregation study this year on a 4-plex that is  now operating as 4 short term rentals and we have had it since 2019. Hoping to be able to claim bonus depreciation but I would need to ask many more questions to proceed. 

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