Refinance to pay off credit card debt - what's the best option?

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Refinance to pay off credit card debt - what's the best option?

Michelle Burgstaler
Member since 2019 · 12 posts · 3 votes

I’m hoping someone can give me some sound advice. I have $24m in credit card debt, my husband has $0. I am trying to figure out the best option for eliminating the CC debt, plus having a little left over to help our son with college expenses. Husband’s credit score is around 740, and mine has recently tanked to about 550. I make about $16m/year, he grosses about $70m (rental income).

We own 9 rental homes; 6 are mortgage-free and 3 have 30-year mortgages, $50m (4.75%), $67m and $63m (both at 4%). We are 6 years into these mortgages at $1,050/month. The rentals are worth $100-135m each. Our home is probably at $230m, mortgage-free. We are 56 years old and don’t want to sell the rental properties yet.

Would it be best to refinance one of the mortgaged rental homes? (15 year at 4.175% with $4700 closing costs is an offer we received on the rental we owe $50m on.) Or take out a mortgage on one of the mortgage-free rentals? Or should we take out a mortgage on our residence instead?

My husband is strongly against mortgaging our residence. But I'd like to be able to convince him that's the smartest option, if, indeed, it is? For example, get a 15yr mortgage on our residence, pay off 2 rental mortgages, pay off the CC debt and have enough left over to pay down on the remaining rental mortgage and help our son? I don’t know enough to know what the best option is and I don’t know who to turn to for advice; a banker, a financial advisor, a lawyer??? Any advice is greatly appreciated!

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Steve Vaughan
Rental Property Investor · East Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
7y
Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:

Wow I am impressed that took guts..

I would do the @Steve Vaughan SOPs for how to dig out he has the absolute best advice on this site for these situations.

you can do it..  I suspect he would say get rid of all your CC cards.. and then what ever income you have start paying them down.. for me I would concentrate on paying minimum on all but one knock out one then go to the next one..

 Thank you for the mention, Jay.  You are too kind. 

Michelle, the first step to tackling a problem is to recognize there is a problem.  That took a lot of guts and I want to commend you on having 7 months clean.  That's huge.  No plan will work of course if the big G is not corralled. I hope you are in a good GA group and have a sponsor.

I wouldn't refinance a house. That will only cure a symptom, not the behavior or underlying problem.  This needs to be felt by sacrificing and paying off one debt at a time, lowest balance to highest.  I paid off $87k this way in 32 months earning basically nothing.   I had a big debt thermometer I drew on poster board and was motivated as debts fell off and I could cross off some of the thermometer. 

I'd encourage you to follow Dave Ramsey's radio show/podcast, his FB group and to read his Total Money Makeover.  He is the king of getting out of debt.  He also has a free budgeting app called Every Dollar.

Cut the credit cards up.  I haven't had cards or consumer debt of any kind (just mortgages) in years and my score is very high.  Trying to manage your fico is just chasing your tail at this point anyway. 

Welcome to BP.  Thank you for sharing. We are here for you.

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  • Scott JensenPro Member
    Financial Advisor · Blaine, MN · Member since 2014 · 478 posts · 387 votes
    7y

    @Michelle Burgstaler  There's multiple ways to go about this. Refinancing isn't wrong but I would be hesitant to refinance $24k worth of credit card debt without knowing the cause.

    What caused the credit debt? How long have you had it and what is the rate?

    3Reply
  • Michelle Burgstaler
    OP
    Member since 2019 · 12 posts · 3 votes
    7y

    Hi Scott - thank you for your response... it kills me to admit this publicly, but i had/have a gambling problem. I have been "clean" 7 months now. My husband controls our joint finances (rental income) and i turned to credit cards rather than have to ask him for money. He pays 90% of the bills, so gambling and living beyond my means was my problem. I have 9 credit cards. I closed 3 of them about 8 months ago because I was falling behind and already ruining my credit. I am on a "payment plan" with some of them, others I am just plain behind and/or basically just paying interest ($138 payment to Discover is $118 in interest, 26.24%). If you needed me to, I could look up all the individual interest rates; i'm going to guess they average 24%. The most recent card is 1.5 yrs old and the oldest is 11y 7m. According to 'Take Charge America', the accounts I "closed" don't appear closed on my credit report, and from what i'm seeing at Credit Karma, that appears to be true. TCA wants me to do a DMP and they project they can lower my interest rates to 8%. On the other hand, my husband is willing to help me by getting refinancing as long as I am responsible for making the payment. I would not co-sign the loan due to my poor credit score. I have considered many options, including divorce/bankruptcy/signing everything over to my husband (all property is jointly owned) and more. I just want to "start over" and get this behind me. Well, there you have it. Mortifying and embarrassing to say the least. I am grateful for your reply and look forward to hearing from you. If you provide a service that I should be paying for, please let me know how to proceed. Thanks so much, michelle

    3Reply
  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    7y

    Wow I am impressed that took guts..

    I would do the @Steve Vaughan SOPs for how to dig out he has the absolute best advice on this site for these situations.

    you can do it..  I suspect he would say get rid of all your CC cards.. and then what ever income you have start paying them down.. for me I would concentrate on paying minimum on all but one knock out one then go to the next one..

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  • Michelle Burgstaler
    OP
    Member since 2019 · 12 posts · 3 votes
    7y

    Thank you, Jay, I'll check out Steve Vaughan! I guess I don't want to get rid of ALL the cards because that would really tank my credit score (i think?) - but you're absolutely right, that's really what i SHOULD do. maybe give them to my husband (who'll probably burn them!)? And since you didn't mention it, i'm guessing that's a nay on the mortgage refinance. i hope someone can explain why before i/we do something i/we shouldn't...

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  • Steve Vaughan
    Rental Property Investor · East Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:

    Wow I am impressed that took guts..

    I would do the @Steve Vaughan SOPs for how to dig out he has the absolute best advice on this site for these situations.

    you can do it..  I suspect he would say get rid of all your CC cards.. and then what ever income you have start paying them down.. for me I would concentrate on paying minimum on all but one knock out one then go to the next one..

     Thank you for the mention, Jay.  You are too kind. 

    Michelle, the first step to tackling a problem is to recognize there is a problem.  That took a lot of guts and I want to commend you on having 7 months clean.  That's huge.  No plan will work of course if the big G is not corralled. I hope you are in a good GA group and have a sponsor.

    I wouldn't refinance a house. That will only cure a symptom, not the behavior or underlying problem.  This needs to be felt by sacrificing and paying off one debt at a time, lowest balance to highest.  I paid off $87k this way in 32 months earning basically nothing.   I had a big debt thermometer I drew on poster board and was motivated as debts fell off and I could cross off some of the thermometer. 

    I'd encourage you to follow Dave Ramsey's radio show/podcast, his FB group and to read his Total Money Makeover.  He is the king of getting out of debt.  He also has a free budgeting app called Every Dollar.

    Cut the credit cards up.  I haven't had cards or consumer debt of any kind (just mortgages) in years and my score is very high.  Trying to manage your fico is just chasing your tail at this point anyway. 

    Welcome to BP.  Thank you for sharing. We are here for you.

    4Reply
  • Michelle Burgstaler
    OP
    Member since 2019 · 12 posts · 3 votes
    7y

    Hi Steve - thank you for taking the time to help me. :-) i happened across Dave Ramsey's youtube videos many months ago; absolutely LOVED him - i will have to revisit. 

    i should mention that i did a self-ban at the casino and am not allowed there (legally!). that was a huge step for me.

    While i 100% agree with you that refinancing one of the houses will not cure the behavior/underlying problem, i still think it would be a step forward? Payments i could afford (barely) at a significantly lower interest rate. 

    We owe $50m on the rental, making $310 payments now at 4.75%, final payment in 2043. if we're able to refinance to a 15 year mortgage at 4.125%, the payments would be $600 and paid off 9 years sooner. Isn't that smarter than a DMP at possibly 8%?? Isn't that a smart decision even if I didn't have this CC debt to deal with?

    Paying $800/month with $600 of it going to interest makes me feel utterly hopeless, depressed, suicidal. I only make $860/month. And the only logical reason I can come up with for continuing at this rate would be that I deserve to be punished for getting myself into this situation in the first place. Which may be true, but i don't know that i can go on this way much longer. I need to do something that at least feels proactive, whether it be the DMP or the refinance?

    0Reply
  • Andrew Flora
    Rental Property Investor · North Vernon, IN · Member since 2018 · 136 posts · 192 votes
    7y

    The “best” thing to do will vary from person to person.  If I were you this is what I would do:

    1. Cancel all the cards except the one you have had the longest(this will keep you from damaging your credit age) and give that last card to your husband and let him lock it away somewhere. 

    2.  Refinance the primary, I’ve seen these rates under 4% recently at local banks, use this money to pay off your CC debt only.  Do not use it for anything else.  

    3.  Do not pay for your child’s education.  Encourage your child to apply for hundreds of scholarships and seek cheaper education, if the child needs a student loan he/she can get one but teach them a valuable lesson about money and debt and encourage them to avoid unnecessary student loan debt.  Chances are, if they put in the work they can go to school for free.

    4.  Make a budget and a plan that includes paying down that refinanced primary.  Make a goal and be very serious about putting money towards that goal every month until you have achieved it.  You must be very serious about your budget, if you do not take this seriously you will relapse.

    5.  Find some close friends or people that have beaten gambling addiction and meet with them bi-weekly at the least.  Hold each other accountable, if you feel weak lean on them for help.

    No matter how long you are clean you can not get lazy with addiction.  It lives inside of you forever.  If you slip up once you will completely relapse.  Find healthy hobbies so you have something positive to get addicted to. Get addicted to analyzing properties, reading books, jogging, yoga, gardening, cooking, etc.  You will be able to find something positive to fill the void. 

    You’re doing the right thing by talking about it.

    0Reply
  • Michelle Burgstaler
    OP
    Member since 2019 · 12 posts · 3 votes
    7y

    Andrew, your advice and your wisdom are priceless. I'm crying, but I'm so happy to hear from you. I am going to print your reply and post it on my wall. the only thing i can't do is refi the primary, because it is my husband's pride and joy that it is paid off; and no matter if it is financially advisable to do otherwise, he will not budge. And i can understand that for now. Your last paragraph is spot-on. I have immersed myself in turning one of our rentals into an Airbnb vacation rental for the past year, (very lucrative at this point, not sure how it will fare during a Minnesota winter) and will continue to try to keep myself "otherwise occupied". :-) Thank you, thank you, thank you. 

    0Reply
  • Theresa HarrisPro Member
    Member since 2019 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    7y

    @Michelle Burgstaler  I admire your honestly.  Have you looked into getting a no interest credit card that you can transfer some of the balance to?  I would also call the credit card companies and ask if they can lower the interest rates.  I've heard there are scripts online that you can use.

    Talk to your husband about your feelings.  Suggest that you could get a second job to help pay your debt down faster.

    0Reply
  • Joseph Hammel
    Rental Property Investor · Lake Hallie, WI · Member since 2015 · 292 posts · 144 votes
    7y

    First just wondering why your using m behind your figures. I'm assuming you don't have 24 million in CC debt. If your goal is to just pay the $24k look at getting a small mortgage on one of the rentals. I've gotten a bunch of second mortgages from a small local bank with little closing costs. Then you can write off the interest. If I were siting on all that equity I would be leveraging it to buy more rentals but I don't know the rest of your situation/ goals ect. 

    0Reply
  • Steve Vaughan
    Rental Property Investor · East Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Michelle Burgstaler:

    i should mention that i did a self-ban at the casino and am not allowed there (legally!). that was a huge step for me.

    While i 100% agree with you that refinancing one of the houses will not cure the behavior/underlying problem, i still think it would be a step forward? Payments i could afford (barely) at a significantly lower interest rate. 

    I am here because @Jay Hinrichs summoned me and recommended me.  Remember that as I leave these last comments.

    That's great that you self-banned yourself from and are no longer allowed at that one casino.  Without the support of a local GA group and a sponsor, the probability of relapse is much higher.  No addict is successful financially while 'using'.  Period.  

    Paying off a home sooner, opening a new credit card, consolidating, trying to raise your fico right now aren't going to help at all at this stage IMO.  Line up your cc debts smallest to largest and punch them in the face.  Roll the old payment into the next as you pay them off.  Celebrate the small victories reasonably.  

    Priority one should be to join a quality GA group to help prevent relapse. If you relapse, all is for not.  My $.02.  

    3Reply
  • Billy Smith
    Shawnee Mission, KS · Member since 2016 · 719 posts · 313 votes
    7y

    I would never take a mortgage to pay off a CC unless on a rare case.

    like what was said pay minimum on all but one.

    The one I would pay heavy would be the smallest debt.

    The reason it will get done quick and you will feel traction keep you pumped up to keep going.

    I think this may be a Dave Ramsey type of plan not real sure.

    I like him except his ELP plan I will not hijack the thread on why.

    0Reply
  • Michelle Burgstaler
    OP
    Member since 2019 · 12 posts · 3 votes
    7y

    Oops on the m, old school habit. (From internet search - The letter M is the roman numeral for 1,000 and has had that meaning currently and in the past. Some now use the M to signify million and K to signify thousand). Theresa Harris, i've let my credit score tank too much to have any balance transfers available. And doing that in the past helped me get into the situation i'm in (transfer balance, then rack up credit on BOTH cards...little to no willpower over my addiction). 

    Steve, you are right about the relapse and it IS something i fear. Greatly. Maybe I'm throwing myself a pity party, but I just can't deal with making payments that are 75% interest. Getting nowhere, with no feeling of accomplishment. Apparently why gambling appealed to me - instant gratification? I'd rather just quit my job and give up completely. What's the point of going on like this? And do i forego paying the largest balance CC to pay off the smallest one? Because i don't make enough to make all of the payments. I have some programs with some of the CC companies that has lowered my interest and frozen my account(s). Should I do that with ALL of them? Should I go ahead and let my credit score get even lower; it's already dropped 30pts this month and is down to 554.

    0Reply
  • Erik W.
    Real Estate Investor · Springfield, MO · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    7y

    Another vote for the Dave Ramsey solution.  His method is tried and true, very cost effective (ranging from free to less than $150).  Don't look for reasons NOT to do it; look at the fact it has helped over 5 million people like you become and remain debt-free.

    There is one more big, hairy issue to address here before we turn you loose, and Ramsey will mention this: getting on the same page with your spouse.  I notice phrases like "he handles 90% of the money/bills" and "I have to ask him for money"....

    This is a major problem.

    Spouses MUST be on the same financial page/plan, or you'll be fighting against each other instead of working together as a team to accomplish your goals.

    What does it look like to be a spousal team?

    1) Make a unique monthly budget, discuss it, and stick to it.  If hubby is the financial whiz/geek of the family he can do the leg work of putting it together, but you need to see it, suggest changes, and at the end of the day sign on the bottom saying you agree to it and will stick to it.

    2) Jointly owned checking accounts.  This one may be hard, especially since there was a gambling habit in the past.  I suggest if all else fails, have a weekly meeting where you look over the books together.  You can log into your account online and have full visibility without having access to the funds directly.  This is a major trust-rebuilding exercise for both of you.  You need to see what's coming in and what's going out.  He needs to trust you with that, even if you're not to the point of having an ATM card yet.  I have heard every argument in favor of spouses having separate individual accounts, and most of them are bunk.  What it boils down to is trust and transparency.

    Ramsey will tell you all that stuff in explicit detail, and he's 100% correct.  I have been a financial coach and taught his Financial Peace University class several times, and the BIGGEST factor impacting success or failure for participants is getting on the same plan with his/her spouse combined with absolute transparency, participation, and integrity shared among all parties.

    Best wishes!

    0Reply
  • Steve Vaughan
    Rental Property Investor · East Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Michelle Burgstaler:

    Steve, do i forego paying the largest balance CC to pay off the smallest one? Because i don't make enough to make all of the payments. I have some programs with some of the CC companies that has lowered my interest and frozen my account(s). Should I do that with ALL of them? Should I go ahead and let my credit score get even lower; it's already dropped 30pts this month and is down to 554.

     Its the wins of paying off the small balances that keep us going.  90% of personal finance is personal. 

    If you can't make payments on some of the larger unsecured balances, so be it.  Go back to them when you get to them on the list in a couple years and make them a settlement offer of 25%. 

    Again, your fico score isn't the important thing now.  So what if it drops 30 points a month when it's already down so much?  Build it after you clear this up and get your serenity back.

    0Reply
  • Michelle Burgstaler
    OP
    Member since 2019 · 12 posts · 3 votes
    7y

    Thank you, Billy. I feel like I swam into the middle of a lake, I'm drowning and there's a lifeboat just a little further out... but the people on shore are saying, "This is your own fault, you should have known better! Just turn around, keep swimming, you'll make it back to shore!" And they don't realize that I just don't have the strength.

    0Reply
  • Jerry W.Pro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Thermopolis, WY · Member since 2012 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    7y

    @Michelle Burgstaler, there is a small chance that some things might help. First the actual method of how you won the properties and your personal home is critically important. If the property is in a corporation, how the shares are owned, if it is an LLC what state and how do you hold your interest. If it is in personal names is it Tenants by the entireties? It would be worth it to find out. Depending on how the debt is owed and how the property is owned can be huge. Then talk to a bankruptcy attorney. A relative of mine used her credit card to buy alcohol due to her addiction. She would keep getting more cards to pay off old cards and snowballed a huge debt. She finally confessed when she was at the end of her rope contemplating suicide. Her husband took out a second loan and on the house and paid off about $20K of CC debt, only to discover a year later there was another $50K she had not told him about. They pretty much only had their house, camper trailer, 2 vehicles, and a few head of horses. All of the debt was in one her name, and the house was in tenants by the entireties. She was able to file bankruptcy and they could not touch the house as it was tenants by the entireties and he did not owe on any of the remaining CC debt so it was wiped out by the bankruptcy. They ended up having to buy back their camper and horses was all. That might not work for you, but it might. See a bankruptcy attorney and VERY honest with them. Good luck, stay the course.

    1Reply
  • Michelle Burgstaler
    OP
    Member since 2019 · 12 posts · 3 votes
    7y

    To Steve - just saw your last post,

    If you can't make payments on some of the larger unsecured balances, so be it. Go back to them when you get to them on the list in a couple years and make them a settlement offer of 25%.

    Again, your fico score isn't the important thing now. So what if it drops 30 points a month when it's already down so much? Build it after you clear this up and get your serenity back.

    Thank you. This is straight-forward and makes me feel like it's a plan. I will still check out Dave Ramsey - whatever i can find that is free. I am currently going through all of my cc accounts online, creating yet another spreadsheet and determining exactly what is owed, what the interest rates are and who i've already set up "hardship programs" with (one is reduced to 12% for some time period, probably 6mo-1yr) and at what interest rates. I discovered one of the cards is at a 'penalty rate' of 31.65%. didn't even know such a thing existed, wow. 

    Can you tell me before you guys "give up on me", because nobody has really addressed it, is a Debt Mgmt Program NOT the way to go, and why?

    0Reply
  • Michelle Burgstaler
    OP
    Member since 2019 · 12 posts · 3 votes
    7y

    Jerry - I looked into tenancy by the entirety (had never heard of it before) and found this: In 1890, the Minnesota Supreme Court identified that the tenancy by the entirety form of real property title ownership had been abolished in Minnesota,... so i'm guessing it's not even an option? i have considered divorce to protect my husband from my debt (i know he has, too, because of all the heartache i've caused him, loss of trust etc). he wanted me to sign all of our property over to him last fall because he was worried my debt would cause him/us to lose our house. i tried to assure him that they aren't going to take our house or our properties away - i think i'm right, i hope so? 

    0Reply
  • Michelle Burgstaler
    OP
    Member since 2019 · 12 posts · 3 votes
    7y

    Erik Whiting - your advice is invaluable. Yes, we have a major problem. We have been married 25 years, i was a gambler when we met, have had periods of abstinence over the years, but he has (understandably) never been able to trust me (in regard to money) and probably never will. We have never, ever been on the same page as far as finances go; he is a cautious saver and i am, ahem, a gambler. I am actually the whiz/geek in our relationship - it would be very difficult to introduce online banking (or anything online for that matter) to him. It's hard for him to understand it, which leads to not trusting it.

    Unfortunately, i don't feel this is a good time to ask him to become my financial teammate. I can guarantee he would not be open to it, not now. He would see it as a losing proposition, no gain for him, just some tactic to try to get money from him or to gain control over 'his' money. He does not forgive or forget easily. I think that once I have a better handle on my own personal debt, and assuming I can continue to prove to him that i can abstain from gambling and perhaps be trusted some day, that would be the time for me to incorporate your excellent advice. Thank you again, I appreciate it very much.

    0Reply
  • Steve Vaughan
    Rental Property Investor · East Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Michelle Burgstaler:

    To Steve - just saw your last post,

    Can you tell me before you guys "give up on me", because nobody has really addressed it, is a Debt Mgmt Program NOT the way to go, and why?

    A 'program' will essentially do what I described (take payments from you, but withhold paying on the cc s until they can offer a settlement) but charge you a lot to do it.  You will have no control and no guarantees.  The credit score you worry so much ab0ut will be tanked worse most likely.

    So no, I don't recommend a program other than the plan I outlined from Dave Ramsey.  List the balances smallest to largest. Pay down the smallest until it goes away.  Make minimum payments on all other larger balances you can. 

    Go to the ones you werent able to pay on and offer settlememts later. You can do this! 

    0Reply
  • Michelle Burgstaler
    OP
    Member since 2019 · 12 posts · 3 votes
    7y

    Hi Steve - For the DMP's i'm looking at, everything i've read indicates that they will negotiate lower interest rates, charge me a monthly fee, and then take my payment and distribute it to the cc companies. if not literally stated, it's at least implied that they're making these payments monthly. If what you say is true, I would completely ignore that option.

    How about me negotiating with all of my creditors EXCEPT discover - and defaulting on that one? I've had the card for 8.5 years and it shows 100% on-time payments. I owed them $6530 on 8/2017. Over 2 years, I charged $250 and got a cash advance of $160. Also in past 2 years, I made $3365 in payments ($277 went to late fees). My balance today is $6397. I am confident that if I looked up the prior 6 years, it would show pretty much the same thing; carrying this same balance for about 7 years and making no headway. That would equate to about $21k in interest paid, wouldn't it?! Would they take that into consideration if I tried to negotiate with them? Say, "Jeez, i've already paid you $20k in interest - can you cut me a break?" Or, again, just default...???

    I have my spreadsheet completed, figuring out the budget and will try to start on your "Dave Ramsey" plan this month. Thank you again for all of your sound advice! :-)

    0Reply
  • Account Closed
    Rental Property Investor · Tampa FL 33610 · Member since 2011 · 254 posts · 56 votes
    7y

    @Michelle Burgstaler Don't consolidate. You could end up in collections and you don't want that to happen. I sent a message to you. 

    0Reply
  • Jennifer Rysdam
    Rental Property Investor · Cleveland, MN · Member since 2017 · 518 posts · 354 votes
    7y

    Don't file bankruptcy for only $24,000, and certainly don't get divorced. I would cut up all the cards, have hubby take out a home equity line of credit on one of the homes, and pay the credit cards off with the much lower interest rate. Pay as much as you can every month towards it and get it paid off. The goal being to get the interest rate lower so that you can pay it off faster. You also may not have to pay fees or closing costs if all you ask for is the $24,000. Give hubby all checkbooks and other ways to get money and take this time to prove to him that you mean business. You said you make $16,000 per year. Is it possible to get a better job or a second job? Hard work and honest effort is the way to fix this issue. Good luck :)

    0Reply
  • Michelle Burgstaler
    OP
    Member since 2019 · 12 posts · 3 votes
    7y

    Jennifer Rysdam ~ Thank you, I am grateful for your valuable input. I didn't know about the possibility of a home equity loan and i will definitely look in to that! His credit score is 776, so i would think he could qualify. My job involves 12-hr shifts that vary by week. When i'm not there, i'm usually working on the vacation rental, managing, improving, cleaning. i've been neglectful of my 20-year ebay business over the past 10 months as i put all of my time into renovating and managing the vacation rental, but i will try to start focusing on that to make some extra money. :-)

    0Reply
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