Advice Please!! Chimney needs repaired and tenants don't have hot water!
Real Estate Investor · Fort Wayne, IN · Member since 2013 · 168 posts · 78 votes
Advice Please!! Chimney needs repaired and tenants don't have hot water!
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Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
12y"so my handy man moves the furnace and gets that all taken care of."
There are certain things you want a licensed, properly trained, and insured person to handle. Mechanicals involving gas and other things can be very dangerous.
I wouldn't leave that type of stuff up to a handyman. Too much liability there for the cost you think you are saving.
15 Replies
- Rental Property Investor · State College, PA · Member since 2013 · 287 posts · 99 votes12y
@Elizabeth S. - Depending on your specific situation, DO NOT use a natural draft gas appliance. When you begin moving heating equipment and have improper draft to begin with, natural draft will not work.
If the house has a combined water heater/boiler, look for a high efficiency replacement. The specific terminology you want to see is: "95%+ AFUE modulating, condensing boiler (or furnace)." I've had good luck with the Burnham Alpine boiler (just personal preference). Price would be a deterrent here. A swap would cost $10k - $14k, but would eliminate all chimney problems as well as most health and safety issues now and in the future.
If you are only looking to replace your water heater, you could consider a heat pump water heater. They are a little pricier on the front end, but would translate into utility savings for you or your tenants, which should translate into increased rent for you.
If you must stick w/ a gas water heater, and you either have a water softener, or don't have hard water, consider an 'on-demand' water heater. Rinnai and Bosch make good models.
All of the above gas models I described all vent through the side of the building, so your problem with the chimney would be (sort of) solved.
- 12yRoy N.Pro MemberRental Property Investor · Fredericton, New Brunswick · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
You are taking the correct steps - you do need to get a gas fixture technician on site to examine the chimney. If it is just a dead animal, the fix will be quick. If the liner is cracked, then you need to determine the following:
- is your domestic hot water heater a high efficiency model that can be directly vented through the side/sill of the house w/o a chimney (i.e. not natural draft). If so, then I would have it re-ducted and be done with the chimney.
- if your water heater requires a chimney {is natural draft}, then you should evaluate the age of your heater and the cost to replace it with a newer (more efficient) model that does not require a chimney.
- another alternative is a gas-fired on-demand water heater (no tank). A little pricier up-front, but they are cheaper to operate and have a longer life that a storage tank heater.
The same evaluation would need to take place with your furnace if it shares the same chimney flue and the flue liner is cracked. Most modern, high efficiency gas furnaces (95% AFUE) are direct vent and direct exhaust and do not require a chimney.
- Engineer · Wichita, KS · Member since 2012 · 396 posts · 36 votes12y
Call around to some Equipment rental companies for a on-site remote water heater used in construction.
- Greentown, IN · Member since 2012 · 140 posts · 18 votes12y
The remote water heater that Terry mentioned sounds promising if you have access to a company near you that has them.
If not... Have you thought of putting them up in a hotel for a few days so they have access to a hot shower, etc. They could go back and forth.. live at your property and bath/groom at the hotel. It would help them not have to inconvenience their family/friends while they wait. Sponge baths only work for so long before you want a real shower.
Maybe a big stack of paper plates, plastic silverware and cups would also be a good gesture since they don't have access to hot water for washing. That would minimize their dishes until you are able to get the problem fixed.
You already have finances going out for repairs, but I think it a good gesture at least offer them a hotel for a night or two prior to Monday while they wait, & the plates, etc are inexpensive and let them know you are concerned for their discomfort and are trying to make things easier for them.
- 12yDeborah BurianPro MemberRental Property Investor · Oklahoma City, OK · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 412 votes
My impression is that you don't have a lot of units or 'bigger pockets' so some of these solutions may be out of your price range. If the tenants are surviving with good grace, I would apologize profusely, and rebate the rent for the days the property was in a less than completely habitable condition. I did that for tenants whose roof repair became a comedy of errors and they were both shocked and appreciative (and still my tenants a number of years later). The provision of disposables is also a very nice thought.
- Rental Property Investor · Denver, CO · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes12y
- So you could look at adding an on demand water heater but it can be costly if you setup does not work for it. I can not believe that the gas company didn't want you to get a permit to move the furnace. I'm not sure that you fully grasp your situation. Have you been to the house to look at it?
If it's a brick chimney, it could be that the furnace gases have eaten away at the brick and the chimney is falling in on itself. Around here you would be required to install a stainless steel liner in the chimney.
- Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes12y
"so my handy man moves the furnace and gets that all taken care of."
There are certain things you want a licensed, properly trained, and insured person to handle. Mechanicals involving gas and other things can be very dangerous.
I wouldn't leave that type of stuff up to a handyman. Too much liability there for the cost you think you are saving.
- Investor · Central Valley, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes12y
I'd put the inconvience limit at 3 days that a tenant should be expected to live without hot water. After that, it goes beyond inconvenience and they are not getting what they paid for. I'd give them a big fat rent credit for November, letting them know now. You'd be surprised how long tenants will boil water and shower at friend's houses for reduced rent.
Is it the water heater gas vent that is blocked? Or is it the main fireplace chimney that has a crack or blockage, and the fireplace has a gas line? If so, and if it looks like the chimney repair is going to be major or take longer, you could have a plumber cut and cap off and remove the gas line to the fireplace in order to get the gas safely turned on for the other appliances. - Rental Property Investor · Mercer Island, WA · Member since 2008 · 22k+ posts · 14k+ votes12y
I'd start by giving back the October rent. Not only did you rent a unit that wasn't ready to rent you failed to take a very basic step to be sure it was ready. I suspect you mean the vent pipe between the water heater and furnace wasn't properly sloped upward away from the water heater. A licensed mechanical contractor would have never done that. It also sounds like the vent or vents from the furnace and water heater connect into the chimney. In a case where I had this the city inspector required us to replace the chimney liner because we could not get the connections correctly hooked up to the old one. You may well be looking at that. This work really needs to be getting done by a licensed Hvac contractor and with permits. This sort of thing can kill people.
- Rental Property Investor · Upstate, NY · Member since 2012 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes12y
Originally posted by Jon Holdman:
In a case where I had this the city inspector required us to replace the chimney liner because we could not get the connections correctly hooked up to the old one. You may well be looking at that.
This sort of thing can kill people.We did two this year & yes CO is a killer.
One was a complete chimney rebuild with an Al liner for the older fce & HW tank.
Second was a nightmare of old barely legal octopus venting. So we replaced the fce & HW tank with Hi Eff units.
Then we just spent 6 hours installing a new on-demand (180,000 BTU) HW gas unit. I did it for $200 less than a replacement Hi Eff, 50gal (40,000 BTU) HW tank Plus (thanks to PEX) I could put it in a much better location freeing up a huge closet that stored a 50gal tank that just sat there & 'cooked' itself to maintain temp.
- 12yAndrew FidlerBusiness MemberReal Estate Broker · Toledo, OH · Member since 2011 · 384 posts · 434 votes
@elizabeth- you aren't too far from Toledo so I suspect we have similar building age and construction.
As soon as my jack-of-all-trades (master of none) reported that there was a block in the chimney I would send him to Home Depot for some pieces of 3/4" pipe...it's not rocket science to shine a good power flashlight down from the top and then thread together enough pipe to bang whatever it is down to the bottom, or hook it up to the top. If they end up enlarging the vent hole to remove a dessicated raccoon than then it's one more story to tell come time for your next drink date with friends, and you tell your guy to brick and mortar up the hole when he's done.
I would only use a chimney specialist when I decided there was a need for one...identifying the blockage doesn't qualify.
Don't wait till Monday, have your guy evaluate now!
I keep multiple contractor's numbers on file...if I need a job done NOW I tell them politely that if they want to wait four days before they can get to my job then I will have to keep calling around. I have mellow (non-occupied) projects and those that are HOT...this needs attention and your creditability is suffering so it's urgent. I've had great success posting on Craigslist for an immediate need under the "hiring" section.
(Regarding the gas venting and liability suggestions, it all depends on your comfort and experience. I do my own wiring yet I hire out my Hvac. I pull permits where I must and avoid the city where ever I may. If you don't know the codes (meaning any reasonably experienced contractor will look at the job and say "how was the hack you hired to do this job???" Which is embarrassing when it's your own work the guy is talking about)...then you hire it out. Keep your insurance paid and your skills focused where they're strong...knowing when to hire out is half the battle.) (wow, was that really a GI Joe reference?)
Elizabeth- this goes triple if you are managing the jobs...you now have to know what you AND your handyman do and do not know...you have to know when it's the end of the month and he is tight on money and wants to tackle a job he isn't qualified for and puts you in liability. (At the same time...hiring him to do a job he's great at for an excellent price because money is tight at the end of the month...THAT is the sweet spot in our business. Trick is you have to know the difference.)
- 12yColleen F.Pro MemberInvestor · Narragansett, RI · Member since 2013 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
I probably don't need to tell you to please be very careful with gas appliances and obviously you are trying to get someone in to get the hot water fixed pronto.
If they don't want you to put them in a hotel and some people don't we used to go to the YMCA when our well gave out. If there is something like a health club close by you could give them a gift certificate. If its cold loan them an electric heater if you have one. Anything that they would have to buy to compensate for the problem you could loan them. I think the important thing is that they understand you are addressing the issue promptly and they see you are doing what you can to compensate for it. Whether you do anything with the rent that is up to you but conveying you are aware of and care about the inconvenience through your actions to help will make a difference in getting off on the right foot with them.
- 12yJean BolgerPro MemberAurora, CO · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
Lots of good advice above. Personally, I would try to get a licensed HVAC person out there ASAP. It seems unlikely that these are two separate problems i.e. the angle is not right, then suddenly there is a block in the line. Seems there may be something fundamentally wrong with your venting. I know it will be expensive on the weekend, but if the venting is wrong for for the water heater and it's hooked up to the furnace and the furnace is running.... well, I'm no expert but I think there is potential for stuff to go very wrong, and you don't want that to happen.
- Investor · Central Valley, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes12y
Originally posted by Jon Holdman:
I'd start by giving back the October rent. Not only did you rent a unit that wasn't ready to rent you failed to take a very basic step to be sure it was ready. I suspect you mean the vent pipe between the water heater and furnace wasn't properly sloped upward away from the water heater. A licensed mechanical contractor would have never done that. It also sounds like the vent or vents from the furnace and water heater connect into the chimney. In a case where I had this the city inspector required us to replace the chimney liner because we could not get the connections correctly hooked up to the old one. You may well be looking at that. This work really needs to be getting done by a licensed Hvac contractor and with permits. This sort of thing can kill people.Jon: most of my house experience is from the last 20 years in So Cal. So I've dealt with very few central heating systems, maybe a dozen or so. But rather lots of wall heaters and floor furnances. I 've never seen the hot water tank and the furnace venting related to each other in any way. I'm curious about venting to/through a fireplace chimney. Is that common? Or is the OP referring to a chimney that is solely for venting and not related to a fireplace?
- Peoria, IL · Member since 2011 · 365 posts · 182 votes12y
It is common for water heater and furnace to share venting. I generally replace water heaters with pvc direct vent models, that way when the furnace is replaced and the roof is replaced in the future, i can remove the chimneys altogether.
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