Great sounding tenant with questionable dog - should I rent??

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Great sounding tenant with questionable dog - should I rent??

Nick Brubaker
Decatur, GA · Member since 2015 · 419 posts · 52 votes

Hi everyone,

So I am getting closer to finding a tenant for my first SFH rental. It has taken me exceptionally long, probably because it is my first time going through the process.

This is probably a C-class house with C-class tenant-base.  My biggest challenge has been finding a serious, responsible tenant.  

This week I finally found one that I like for the following reasons:

- She is polite, respectful, and reasonable

- She is a 5th grade teacher with a steady income over 4x the rent

- She has a clean criminal record

- She has good credit history and has unintentionally signaled twice that her credit is important to her

- Her car and dress seem clean and maintained enough

- In some online research I found out she was on the dean's list in college 

- She is offering to pay another half-month's security deposit to give her an advantage over other applicants

The biggest concern though is that she has a 75-pound dug that is a mix of Chow, American Terrier, Boxer, and Lab. 

Things to consider:

- She says the dog is not aggressive

- She says he does not destroy property

- She says he's over the "puppy stage"

- Her vet said the dog will likely not grow any more.  

- Apparently she brings him to day care regularly (maybe every day) where he usually expends his energy.  She offered to provide the contact info of the daycare provider to hear her/his input on the dog's temperament.  

- Apparently she has an e-collar to help "manage" the dog if necessary.  

- She is offering to pay more pet fee (I am already charging $200 upfront and $25 additional every month)

- The house is old (1952), has hardwood floors, a new deck, and a large backyard

- The tenant is required to get renter's insurance

- I have asked her to provide a record of the dog being spayed/neutered as well as vaccine records

It may or may not be obvious that I would like to approve this tenant even with the dog.  I would love to hear your thoughts?

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Albert Hasson
Investor · Paradise Valley, AZ · Member since 2012 · 361 posts · 214 votes
10y

Nick, it's your first rental and you are obviously excited about REI, congratulations!!

However, I think you are totally over analyzing this and it sounds like you have just lost a months (or more) rent due to your overly strict criteria.

No amount of research can guarantee a good tenant.  Even a "doggie interview" won't tell you if the dog will scratch your floors and piss inside the house.  This teacher sounds like a god send to me given the C class location of your home.  Sign her up and stop wasting your time.  If you have that much time to kill start researching your next investment.  

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  • Wesley W.
    Rental Property Investor · The Vampire State · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    10y

    I would check your competition in the market and see what requirements they have and if yours are congruent - things like pet fee (do NOT call it a deposit ) and pet rent, application fee, etc.

    When I started, a charged an application fee, thinking it made good business sense, but after 35 showings and not a single application,  I discovered that other landlords serving my demographic were not charging.  Once I removed that requirement,  I rented it in short order.

    GOOD LUCK!

    2Reply
  • Nick Brubaker
    OP
    Decatur, GA · Member since 2015 · 419 posts · 52 votes
    10y

    Thank you @Myrtle Mike Thompson, @Albert Hasson, @E J Howard, and @Albert Hasson.  @Albert Hasson

    I agree with you Albert.  That there likely is too much analysis going on here (extended vacancy is a guaranteed loss!).  The advice comes from both directions.  

    I think your point is wise, Wesley.  I have gone around and as a "prospective tenant" myself and seen about 6 homes in the area and checked out their policies.  I think I'm on the stricter side. 

    0Reply
  • Lynn McGeein
    Real Estate Agent · Virginia Beach, VA · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    It is best to call or message your insurance company to get their list of restricted breeds as it varies, and usually it includes even a mix of a restricted breed.  The required renter's liability policy should list you as additional insured.  

    My homes all have fenced back yards and I target large dog owners as they tend to stay much longer as harder to find somewhere decent who will allow them (I know this from when we had to rent for a while).  I have stricter pet requirements now than when I started as I find responsible pet owners already meet most of them, anyway, and I can't count how many times an applicant has told me "he's over a year and well-behaved" but come clean and ask for an exception or just never apply when I say, "Well, then I'm looking forward to the pet interview and seeing the vet records."   

    I charge an extra 1/2 month's rent in refundable security deposit, required renter's liability policy, pet interview, AKC Good Citizen Certificate (waived if great pet interview), vet records showing breed, age (no puppies) and current rabies, required current city pet license, signature clause stating pet has never been aggressive, and 2-year lease term (this way they have to live with their pet damage for a while if it happens, but if it's a serious violation, I still have remedies.)  My lease states that specific pet only, no pet sitting, no guest pets.   I do not charge extra pet rent or non-refundable pet fee as I want the incentive for them to get all their deposit back as long as they keep my home in great shape.   Just remember, no matter how many applicants, you only need one.  I tell myself that constantly when reviewing applications.  

    0Reply
  • Robin Cox
    Rental Property Investor · Hamilton, OH · Member since 2016 · 31 posts · 30 votes
    10y

    that looks pretty much like our requirements as well.  We have a 1-year minimum, everything else is the same.  We are also in a C neighborhood and get over 100 emails requesting more information.  When I respond with the pre-screen questions that number goes way down - to about 20.  And then the number of people that reply back that they will actually come to the group showing is even less.  

    We have great houses in not so great areas and offer rent just below or at market value.  This makes it a competition for the people who want to live here.  The best candidate will win and I've had them offer more deposit, longer lease as well.  All you can do is screen really well. 

    Our current tenants have 2 dogs!  However she is a vet tech and they pay $25/month/pet and all has been well.  They too had 750 credit rating and made 4 times the rent.  It's hard for people to believe that hardworking people with good credit scores want to rent in these areas but for some they have grown up here and it's normal.  They really do exist people!   

     @Nick Brubaker, pull the trigger.  Do the "pet interview", like @Susan H. said.  that seems really wise.  

    4Reply
  • Nick Brubaker
    OP
    Decatur, GA · Member since 2015 · 419 posts · 52 votes
    10y

    Very helpful @Lynn McGeein  Thank you.  I will be referring to this list.  I checked with my insurer already and they don't exclude certain dog breeds for landlord policies because the tenant is treated as my customer, which I guess makes me responsible.  I will be requiring the tenant to have renter's insurance.  

    0Reply
  • Nick Brubaker
    OP
    Decatur, GA · Member since 2015 · 419 posts · 52 votes
    10y

    Thanks @Robin Cox  Seems like the best course of action.  

    0Reply
  • Josh Caldwell
    Investor · Dallas TX, United States · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    It all sounds well and good, I would need to meet the dog in person.  I want to judge the dog's personaity myself. 

    1Reply
  • Nick Brubaker
    OP
    Decatur, GA · Member since 2015 · 419 posts · 52 votes
    10y

    Thanks @Josh Caldwell.  

    What tips do any of you have in performing and effective pet "interview"?  I asked the prospective tenant if I can meet her dog today, but I'm not sure what I will do besides looking at it for a bit.  Hopefully I will meet it at her current address and I can check out the condition of the place.  I'm not sure how to best evince the temperament of the dog other than judging how it responds during my initial approach.  I guess I can see how they play together or something.  @Susan H. I'm particularly interested in your thoughts here.   

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  • Josh Caldwell
    Investor · Dallas TX, United States · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    I dont know that i have an interview process, I meet the dog, i pet the dog and I go with my gut  IF at any point I feel that the dog is going to bit or even thinking about biting me, then the dog fails.  No further questions. 

    0Reply
  • Susan H.Pro Member
    Investor/Landlord · NWA, AR · Member since 2016 · 227 posts · 132 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Nick Brubaker:

    Thanks @Josh Caldwell.  

    What tips do any of you have in performing and effective pet "interview"?  I asked the prospective tenant if I can meet her dog today, but I'm not sure what I will do besides looking at it for a bit.  Hopefully I will meet it at her current address and I can check out the condition of the place.  I'm not sure how to best evince the temperament of the dog other than judging how it responds during my initial approach.  I guess I can see how they play together or something.  @Susan H. I'm particularly interested in your thoughts here.   

     Some initial thoughts: I look at the way the dog reacts on leash. In the AKC's Canine Good Citizen test one of the items is "loose leash walking." A dog that's comfortable and confident on a leash (no lunging) is likely to also be confident meeting people.  (Find info about all the test items here: http://www.akc.org/dog-owners/training/canine-good...; short video clips available on YouTube so you can actually see what they're talking about, and what to look for). Responsible dog owners are happy to show off their dog's training. Do ask how long the owner has had the dog, how she came to get the dog, and the dog's training experience. Have they completed basic obedience? If not, why not?  (Since the dog goes to doggie daycare I'd expect to see obedience completed, as that's a common requirement.) 

    At a minimum, will the dog sit at the owner's command while on leash? Does the dog sit quietly while you visit with the owner? Both of these can help you assess how well the dog will behave when walking in the neighborhood. If at all possible, walk a little bit with the owner while dog is on leash. Remember that dogs may behave differently while in their own territory (house, yard) than when out for a walk.  

    You mentioned doggie day care before. Can you go and observe? Ask the kennel owners what they've observed about the dog, any issues they've noticed.

    A caution: don't attempt to pet the dog without the express permission of the owner. (This is true for anyone, anywhere!) Ditto with the offer of dog treats or food of any kind. Just as people don't always like every other person they meet, the same is true for dogs. The key, though, is to be sure the dog responds to the owner in a positive manner and does not behave aggressively toward others.

    0Reply
  • Thomas S.
    Member since 2016 · 13k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    10y

    Nick your screening standards are well within the norm as I see it. There is nothing that jumps out as being excessive in any way. I would not change them except maybe raise your minimum credit score to 650, 625 is a little low. The purpose in screening is to find reasons to reject applicants to be able to narrow the field it is not designed to locate the best applicant.

    When it comes to dogs and dog owners once you approve them there is absolutely no way you can count on them conforming to any standards you place on them. Cutting their dogs nails for example, don't count on it. The dogs claws will damage hard wood froors if the dog is overly energenic, rinns around, jumps up when excited etc. You can not know how much damage will be done in advance.

    You also have a major problem with having over 400 applicants. You have set your rent far too low regardless of the area rents. Setting the rent higher eliminates the tire kickers and makes screening far easier. You want quality seriously interested applicants not all the riff raff that you are presently getting.

    0Reply
  • Nick Brubaker
    OP
    Decatur, GA · Member since 2015 · 419 posts · 52 votes
    10y

    Thank you @Susan H. and @Thomas S.!

    0Reply
  • Penny ClarkPro Member
    Sacramento, CA · Member since 2014 · 513 posts · 319 votes
    10y

    @Nick Brubaker, even in a "C" class area, these requirements are not unreasonable. If other landlords are approving applicants with prior evictions, below 600 credit scores and under 3 X income to rent they can afford to put their property at risk, can you? 

    As long as the teacher applicant meets your requirements, shows proof of rental insurance and pays a good size pet deposit then I'd go with her. 

    1Reply
  • Joe SplitrockPro Member
    Moderator
    Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes
    10y

    @Nick Brubaker the tenant themselves sounds great. Teachers are also nice because you know they have gone through extra screening for their job. 

    The dog gives me pause for these reasons:

    - Size of the dog is too large. I cap at 25 pounds. Any dog can pee or chew but bigger dogs means bigger damage. More powerful jaws can rip apart drywall. Higher volume of pee can destroy floors. I had a tenant bring in a large dog that peed on the air conditioner outside and peed a large hole through the condenser. Sound crazy? The HVAC guy told me he has seen it many times before. 

    - Hard wood floors are a major concern. My friends with hard wood floors and big dogs needed to refinish their floors. I had a big dog visit and only stand in my front entry. The dog scratched my ceramic tile in the 5 minutes it stood there. 

    - Chow mix could be a problem for your insurance. Chow is a dangerous breed that is prohibited by many insurance providers. If the breed is prohibited by your insurance and if you had knowledge it was a Chow mix, your insurance could deny the claim. I would get something in writing from your insurance provider saying it is ok. NEVER believe that tenant insurance would protect you.

    As far as what she says about the dog, it is completely immaterial to your decision. Every dog owner who has ever applied for my properties told me the dog was not aggressive, is non destructive, is kenneled when they leave and everyone who meets the dog loves it. What else would you expect someone to say?

    I would visit her and the dog at her current property to look at the condition of the property and meet the dog. Current landlord reference is useless because they may be trying to get a problem out.

    Her applying to rent a C class property is not a red flag. Teachers are not well paid, sounds like she is single and with a dog like that she probably had to broaden her search. It is harder for people with large dogs to find a place to rent even if the dog is excellent. Also some people don't want to spend all their money on rent.

    I would personally pass on this applicant. 

    2Reply
  • Nick Brubaker
    OP
    Decatur, GA · Member since 2015 · 419 posts · 52 votes
    10y

    Thanks @Joe Splitrock!   Does anyone else agree that the tenant's renter's insurance would not protect against liability?  

    0Reply
  • Joe SplitrockPro Member
    Moderator
    Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Susan H.:
    Originally posted by @Nick Brubaker:

    I'm not. Thanks for clarifying that for me @Jonathan G.!  I know pit bulls have a reputation.  Does partial breed pitbull mean automatic rejection in your practice?

     My current neighbor has a pit bull and she is quite probably the most well trained dog I've ever met. The neighbor across the street has a teeny-tiny dog and it's totally untrained and obnoxious.  Moral of the story: judge the dog, not the breed.

    As a landlord, I ask about the dog's training (for example, obedience classes? What about the AKC's Canine Good Citizen certification?). Call the vet and the doggie daycare and see what they say. Go observe the dog interacting with others.

    Just a thought: the prospective tenant may want the listing because it's close to her work, will help her save money, or any number of reasons. She might also be offering more money upfront in anticipation of rejection due to the dog's breeding. 

    I appreciate that many landlords are reluctant to rent to those who have dogs of certain breeds, and I know many communities have banned some specific breeds. I've researched this issue extensively for a book I'm writing and have learned that many of those same communities have rescinded their breed bans.

    Here's a statement by the AKC that's worth your time to skim: http://images.akc.org/pdf/canine_legislation/why_b...

    Being a landlord is about managing risk. It is not about whether a specific dog WILL harm someone or cause damage, it is whether the animal CAN harm or cause damage. A pitbull not only can kill someone, but they regularly do harm and kill people. Even the sweetest family pet pitbull could go crazy and kill a child who snuck up and scared them. Pick any breed under 25 pounds and they could possibly bite you, but not rip off a body part. They will not rip the drywall out of your house. Just Google pitbull killing or I can send you links. Every three months I see a story on the news about a pitbull attack. Two months ago a pitbull shred a Maltese apart at a local park. The owner said the pitbull got off the leash and that it was otherwise a good dog. The owner couldn't get it off the Maltese and it hurt the Maltese owner. 

    Again it is about managing risk. Why should a landlord go to the great lengths you described to screen a dog, knowing it is capable of horrible things? This is the same reason that insurance companies prohibit certain breeds. They have entire departments doing risk analysis, so if they say it is risky why would I want it? Same goes for trampolines and swimming pools. Even in responsible hands, accidents can happen. 

    1Reply
  • Anastasia Jordan
    Investor · Birmingham, AL · Member since 2016 · 446 posts · 305 votes
    10y

    No amount of money would let me agree to allow a dog inside my property.  I'm a country girl, lol. I grew up where animals lived outside.  I've seen the damage & smell "house trained" animals cause. 

    1Reply
  • Chris Ramos
    Flipper/Rehabber · South Jordan, UT · Member since 2016 · 142 posts · 37 votes
    10y

    Hey Nick, after reading through all of these replies back and forth I couldn't agree more with Albert Hasson meaning you're starting to go into Analysis Paralysis mode. I own a lot of rentals in C to B- grade neighborhoods and this tenant sounds like a dream. You've done as much homework as you can and everything has checked out. The Final test I perform when I'm on the fence is a Surprise visit to where the tenant is currently staying. Just let her know you where in the area and had a quick question, this will confirm your thoughts one way or another. You'll learn about the dog and most importantly you'll  see the condition of the house. Your property is your biggest concern, tenants are Great until they're Not. Also don't be afraid to ask to use her bathroom (it get's you a little further into the house for a sneak peak). Good Luck.

    1Reply
  • Tiffany Thompson-damm
    Oroville, CA · Member since 2016 · 10 posts · 6 votes
    10y

    Is the dog crate trained? Dog is in puppy stage so he isn't mature enough to determine if he is aggressive or will be fear aggressive, has she done obedience training. All three of those breeds in a combo: chows are territorial in maturity, American Terrier (meaning APBT american pit bull terrier) No breed judgement i train a ton of them but they have a high prey instinct to chase, Boxer slow to mature and sometimes not the easiest to train with a short attention span, and Lab labs are labs. I don't worry to much about them except they do like to dig.  I rarely trust a doggy day care, there usually not animal behaviorists and are not going to say anything to anger someone paying regularly. 

    1Reply
  • Tiffany Thompson-damm
    Oroville, CA · Member since 2016 · 10 posts · 6 votes
    10y

    All in all pit bull/chow not a mix i would be interested in unless its mature (meaning its temperament is set) and i can evaluate it to determine if its aggressive, fear reactive, and that she has control. 

    1Reply
  • Jana Hristova
    Property Manager · Tampa, FL · Member since 2016 · 34 posts · 25 votes
    10y

    There are two issues to consider: liability, which she can cover with renter's insurance or pet liability insurance and potential damage. Potential damage can be covered by pet fee and deposit.

    If you have a choice of tenants then go for a tenant without a pet however if this tenant is qualified and there are no others maybe you should consider how much a vacancy will cost you vs. potential damage.  

    Finally, you can inspect the property often so you can catch any damage before it becomes expensive.

    We manage many properties and I haven't had any issues with well behaved large pets. Most of the pet owners are very responsible and usually are long term tenants.

    2Reply
  • Mary K.Pro Member
    Investor · Ocala, FL · Member since 2015 · 157 posts · 88 votes
    10y
    Nick Brubaker this tenant sounds good. where is your property? With over 400 applicants that must be a dynamite area for rentals. i spent a year in Atlanta. Which area/price range is it?
    1Reply
  • Account Closed
    Realtor/Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2015 · 133 posts · 73 votes
    10y

    meet the dog. A dog can be a good thing also as many people will not allow pets, But they must be willing to pay more as it will cost you money!  My leases for pets make it undesired.  10% increase in rent monthly for pet rent 100% of the deposit in addition so 2 months rent deposit total for the pet. Most of my tenants do not have a pet. However if they are responsible and are willing to pay the rent for the pet there is a good chance they stay in a single family for many years as most landlords don't allow pets and rents are going up!

    2Reply
  • Thomas S.
    Member since 2016 · 13k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    10y

    Renters insurance only covers the renters belongings not the landlords property.

    There is no insurance, to my knowledge that covers dog damage, which is why you have damage deposits and pet fees. Unfortunately the deposits and fees will rarely cover the damages.

    I have a new hardwood floor and stairs in my home. With two cocker spaniel's that run from the front door to the up stairs within 6 months my stairs have been destroyed by their claws.

    All pets do damage in a home it is a question of whether, as a landlord, you care.  

    1Reply
  • David Krulac
    Mechanicsburg, PA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    10y

    @Nick Brubaker

    One of my insurance companies has a list of 11 "dangerous breeds", and I'm not allowed to rent to any breed on that list.

    0Reply
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