Investor · Tampa, FL · Member since 2015 · 530 posts · 92 votes
A tenant owes partial rent and late fees from prior month. Rent is due Oct 10th, last night she informed me she is breaking the lease and asked if she could ride out the month of Oct, promising to be out by Nov 1, and asked if she could use her security deposit to pay for that. I'd like suggestions from experienced landlords on the best way to handle this. The apartment was fully renovated 1 year ago, granite counters, tile floors, full renovation, she was first tenant, so I want this to go smoothly and get a nice apt back in one piece. On the other hand she's been late on rent 70% of time, owes back rent, and is breaking lease. As of today she owes $1390. Lease ends Dec 9th. Rent is $950, includes water and electricity. Another $10 is charged monthly for pest control. The deposit is $950. She accumulated $50 in prior late rent, $30 in prior late pest control, and $245 in prior late fees, totaling -$325. On Oct 10th another $960 rent and pest control was due. On Oct 12th, another $100 late fee was charged plus continuing $5/day late fee, bringing current back rent and late fees to -$1390. Of that -$1390, $1040 is rent, $350 is late fees, but lease defines late fees as rent.
Here is a copy of her note to me last night:
Good evening john, I have to move out and break my lease early. I had and emergency with my family help and I have to move with my mom to help with every
thing. I apologize for the short notice I will be out by the end of October I was wondering if u could use my deposit towards the rent and I pay the res
t of it in installments. I will have it typed up so we can both get it signed and notarized so it'd officially I will clean up and mow the lawn. If you c
an grant me the time so I can pack and move I will be out before Nov 1st. I am at work at this present time so if u could text me with a response I woul
d greatly appreciate it
Investor · Tampa, FL · Member since 2015 · 530 posts · 92 votes
9y
Marcia Maynard thoughts? She has told me she has had family emerg nearly every month. I tried to reform her by letting her know the rules. She also said her job as a CNA slowed down over the summer which caused her to get behind on rent. According to neighboring tenant, she has apparently been having someone living there the last 2 weeks who is not on lease who leaves beer cans laying around outside. Other tenant called to complain about it 2 days ago. So it hasn't been easy with her.
Rental Property Investor · Grand Rapids, MI · Member since 2016 · 262 posts · 205 votes
9y
Legally, she is responsible for the rest of the payments left on the lease, too. Depending on how the lease was written, there is usually a valid reason to begin eviction proceedings after so many late rent payments (on mine, it's 3) so you might have been able to nip this in the bud. I have a tendency to be too nice and regret it later, too. I hope some others with more experience will chime in on this for you.
Rental Property Investor · DFW, TX · Member since 2014 · 117 posts · 29 votes
9y
I agree with @David Dachtera, it sounds like she is not financially stable and won't be able to repay the dues. Best situation is to have her move out completely and take the property back to place on market. If she does not drag into Nov. that would be consider the best out of this undesired situation.
Rio Rancho, NM · Member since 2016 · 57 posts · 41 votes
9y
I'm just learning. I'm a little surprised at the responses so far, though.
What happens if November 1 rolls around and she puts cardboard in the windows and won't answer the door?
Shouldn't he start eviction now?
Investor · Tampa, FL · Member since 2015 · 530 posts · 92 votes
9y
I'm guessing that I need to start eviction now, and then she will have 3 days to move out or to offer a partial rent payment to stay longer. But I don't want her to stay all the way to Nov 1, as there is no advantage to me, to have her use up the remaining security deposit. Then I won't have anything left to use for clean up and repairs. Thoughts?
Rental Property Investor · DFW, TX · Member since 2014 · 117 posts · 29 votes
9y
In this business, I think there are formal ways of dealing w/ things and there are human ways of dealing w/ things. @Account Closed, you are right, I think while Jon has the conversation going with tenant, he needs to get a feel about the situation and begin to setup for eviction as a protection. I often bring up the formal process to tenant, be honest about the consequences about what they did and how we could resolve this issue if they work cooperatively. Mention about you will be sending notices out to protect yourself is not a bad idea, this gives them the warning that if they do not move out (in this case) in the agreed timeline, they will be facing this issue formally and this will not make them better in anyway.
Investor · Tampa, FL · Member since 2015 · 530 posts · 92 votes
9y
@John Thedford Very true. Thank you for some perspective. When a repair is needed, I get on it immediately. If the plumbing needs a repair, I don't delay the repair, I don't take short cuts, I do it right, so the tenant is not inconvenienced. It is a two way obligation, I don't have the option to choose to not repair the plumbing, I have to do it. Tenant does not have the option to not pay rent and use the security deposit as rent.
Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
9y
Personally, I'd post the pay quit, and give her a written note that says she can avoid the court proceedings if she agrees to be out this weekend, that she agrees to vacate as of Monday at 9am and that you can change the lock at 9 am Monday, if she doesn't agree, file on Monday.and proceed per the law of your county, state.
You have no guarantee she will move, as far as the fee's and rent due to the end of the lease I doubt you will ever see another dime from her unless you go to small claims court. You can charge her for the rent up to the time you re-rent the property, up to the end date of her lease. but the sooner you rent it the sooner your getting $$.
She's got this months rent she didn't pay you to hire a moving van.
You have no guarantee what she considers "clean" and the security deposit is getting eaten up everyday she stays, yes it is applied to back due rent first, then past due fee's and damages. Right now it's going to cover court cost's first then back rent if you let her continue to stay.
Investor · Warner Robins, GA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 490 votes
9y
I would honestly just request payment in full or go to court over it. If you don't you'll never get your money back. The lease still holds her accountable.
A friend or family member could lend her the money. Shes just trying to weasel out of it.
Investor · Narragansett, RI · Member since 2013 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
9y
Say the terms of the lease don't allow for that. Rely on what your lease says. Be nice acknowledge her situation but tell her the rent is due and if she hasn't paid serve notice. I would follow what Deanna says on trying to get her out asap since she is already behind on rent.
Investor · Tampa, FL · Member since 2015 · 530 posts · 92 votes
9y
@Account Closed Why do you say that I should pay the pest control? Is it a landlord law? I had the lease prepared by a real estate attorney, so I hope he didn't miss something. Maybe the landlord paying pest control is the norm, but in this case, the lease specifically states that pest control is the tenant's responsibility. The tenant agreed to pay $10/mo for me to arrange for pest control, since it would be cheaper that way. And I've had a pest control company do regular service on the property, so the $10/mo was less than it would have cost her to arrange herself. And its been very responsive pest control, when she would see a bug, they would come out within 2 or 3 days. But if there is a landlord law on this, or if there is another reason I should pay pest control, I would like to know, thanks.
Urbana, IL · Member since 2012 · 1k+ posts · 425 votes
9y
Feel free to cut losses. I hate the tenants who always have emergencies. It always one excuse after another after another. Try to get what you can out of them and let it go and move on. Your goal at this point should be to just get them out as smoothly as possible and keep the door open though. Don't get intimidating and rough because your goal is also to get a good unit back in good condition. Mention that if they leave the unit in broomswept condition and all their stuff is out you can let them go for 50% of what they owe. Beyond that you'll have to file claims against them.
Investor · Tampa, FL · Member since 2015 · 530 posts · 92 votes
9y
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
@Jon S. It is not a law on it, but I know you have it in your lease, and you evict the tenant goes out of town and doesn't do the lawn. Just remember if they move out, and you use their security deposit you need to give them receipts for what you bought. I hope your attorney includes that when he prepared your lease. Good luck.
OK, John, thank you for your opinion. I'm trying to understand your point. I'm not trying to do an injustice to this tenant, but do you feel it will be percieved as an injustice? She would have been behind on rent with or without the pest control fee of $10/mo. How would you say is the best way to handle this situation? Thanks
Investor · Vancouver, WA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
9y
@Jon S. Just saw this thread this morning. I agree with some of the other posters.... your goal at this juncture will be to get the unit back as soon as possible, without damages, and to mitigate your monetary loss. If you can do it without hard feelings and help the tenant "save face", all the better.
About leases... Tenants will leave when they want to leave, with or without a lease. Tenants who have leases may be inclined to stay in a property past the point when they are financially able to do, to fulfill the duration of the lease. Your tenant may have been hanging on in part for this reason, despite no longer being able to afford to rent the unit. This is one reason why we find month-to-month agreements work better than long-term leases.
About pest control service... either have the tenant pay for it directly to the pest control company or include it in the rent and adjust the rent upwards accordingly. This is not something I would add-on as a separate item. Tenant mentality can't wrap their head around it. It also gets more sticky if you have to take a tenant to court for non-payment of rent. Even if your lease agreement says unpaid pest control and unpaid late fees become unpaid rent, you don't need to be trying to defend that in court. Best to cover pest control in your maintenance budget.
About late fees... in some jurisdictions the amount of your late fees could be considered excessive and be challenged. Typically you will see a flat fee for a late fee or a per day fee for a late fee, but not both. I find the flat fee works best; ours is $50. If you have onerous late fees, they can bury a tenant quickly, even decent tenants who are trying to do the right thing.
About the timeline... the tenant has stated she needs to break the lease and needs until the end of October to move-out. This is most likely the best scenario for you too. It's time for you to talk about a move-out plan. Negotiate with her for a win-win. You will also serve her the legal notice to "Pay Rent or Quit" (or the equivalent in your jurisdiction) with the understanding that if she delays in anyway you will proceed with eviction.
About the security deposit... let her know the security deposit is in a trust account and can't be accessed until after the tenant has vacated the unit. As a landlord, you know that if you don't charge for damages, fees and rent as they are incurred, the security deposit is rarely enough to cover those accumulated costs at the end of tenancy.
About the unauthorized occupant... if they stay past the time frame that you allow for guests and/or establish residency, they may become a tenant by default. You need that person to vacate immediately.
About the current condition of the unit... as soon as I start having trouble with a tenant, I make a site visit. I serve a legal notice to enter for a maintenance inspection. While I am there checking maintenance items, I keep an eye out for other violations of the rental agreement. Rule breakers often break more than one rule. Document well.
About negotiating... I would break it down in terms the tenant can understand. Rent: $50 Sept + $950 Oct = $1000. Pest Control 4 months x $10 = $40. Late Fees $350+. My offer would be this: She pays $1000 now to catch up with base rent that is past due, the unauthorized occupant leaves immediately, and she voluntarily moves out during October, leaving the place clean and without damages. If she does this, she can avoid eviction proceedings through the court system, you will release her from the lease without penalty, and you will forgive her of the unpaid pest control costs and late fees (a value of over $400 by this time) in the final accounting report after she has vacated and returned possession of the unit to you. You will return to her her security deposit if she returns the unit clean and without damages by the end of October.
About choice... It's her choice to pay rent past due of $1000 and vacate no later than October 31, 2016, or not. Have her sign a document that indicates she is giving you her notice to vacate by that date. Create a document that acknowledges you are accepting her notice to vacate and the terms you are agreeing to. If she does not agree to this move-out plan, then tell her you will post legal "Notice to Pay Rent or Quit" now and she has three days to move-out instead of the remainder of October and you will pursue all monies due, as the law allows. If she stays past the three days and does not pay rent, you will take it to your attorney to pursue eviction through a court of law. It's all about choice. If she claims she does not have $1000 now, tell her you will post the three-day notice now and she needs to get the $1000 before the end of three days from family, friends, or by selling something. This usually does the trick. I've negotiated many move-out plans, helped people save their dignity, and mitigated my losses in this manner. Hope this is helpful to you!
Rock Star Extraordinaire · Northeast, TN · Member since 2015 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
9y
Here's something I noted: if she is having to "move with her mom to help with everything", what is stopping her from "moving with her mom" right now, when she hasn't paid the rent? I would encourage her to move in with her mom immediately and post the eviction notice.
You will not see another dime from this tenant anyway so why delay. As for you wanting the place to be in "nice condition when she moves out......well the sooner this drama queen moves out the sooner you can get your propoerty back and rent to a paying tenant.
Guaranteed that on November 1st she will say....due to all this stuff going on with the family i haven't had time to get anything notarized, etc.
Here's something I noted: if she is having to "move with her mom to help with everything", what is stopping her from "moving with her mom" right now, when she hasn't paid the rent? I would encourage her to move in with her mom immediately and post the eviction notice.
She probably needs the two weeks for the move-out process. Tenants who move-out in a hurry usually cause more damage to walls and woodwork as they and their friends are quickly moving furniture, boxes, and bags. There is also less chance the tenant will clean the place. Since she is also gainfully employed, finding the free time will also be a challenge and additionally stressful for her. Many tenants when faced with a stressful situation such as this, don't see all their options. I'd much rather sit down with a tenant and help them think it through, so they can move-out with as much of their dignity intact as possible. Moving an entire household in three days is tough to do. The OP has a chance to negotiate a better outcome for both of them.
Real Estate Investor · Saint Petersburg, FL · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 951 votes
9y
Classic stall move. Try to get the landlord off your back for a couple more weeks. I very it highly unlikely that the tenant will be out on the 1st. Post a 3 day notice today and let the tenant know to be out by that deadline or that you will file an eviction. If the tenant skips out and you lose a bit of rent it's a win because you'll be able to get it re-rented to a better tenant (hopefully) and lose some drama in your life.
I don't know why everyone is so insistent on leases (yes, I understand the real reasons), because tenants will leave when they want to leave. My dad does month to month agreements, and charges a large deposit. Half of the deposit is refunded if the tenant stays over a year. And if the tenant leaves earlier, that's okay because you have more money to deal with the turnover.
Your tenant is lying through her teeth. My guess is she s moving in with someone else, probably the person that has been hanging around. But non of that matters.
Unlike many landlords I operate a professional business. When a tenant owes money I never excuse the debt. I do not operate a charity and believe if you owe you pay. To not do so is irresponsible in my opinion and if quitting is a landlords approach to business they should reconsider being in business. If they owe they pay, if they do not pay I take them to court. Business is only about making money. If you do not take action to force "customers" to pay what they owe, rather than having a defeatist attitude, set up a charity.
I would serve the tenant, demanding full payment of all monies owed to date and inform her she is responsible to the end of the lease or until you have it re-rented and then take her to court to collect if necessary. Garnish her wages.
You could write up your own agreement for her to sign but you are dreaming in technicolour if you think she will voluntarily pay. If she signs you can take it to court to show she agreed to pay.
I don't know why everyone is so insistent on leases (yes, I understand the real reasons), because tenants will leave when they want to leave. My dad does month to month agreements, and charges a large deposit. Half of the deposit is refunded if the tenant stays over a year. And if the tenant leaves earlier, that's okay because you have more money to deal with the turnover.
Well, there are a lot of good reasons to use a lease:
1. It gives you legal rights to rent over X period of time. Whether the person is a deadbeat or doesn't have any money and you can't collect is immaterial.
2. It spells out terms that allow you (depending on your state) to boot someone out the door immediately for reasons other than unpaid rent.
3. If you have screened your tenants well, it allows you to have vacancies in a planned and timely manner, such as in the summer rather than Christmas.
4. It provides legal requirements for the tenant's occupancy and use of the premises, i.e. property alterations, pests, etc.
5. It attracts good tenants, who want the security of knowing what their monthly rent costs are going to be for a fixed period versus a "Hey, by the way, I'm going up $200 next month" text or e-mail.
My experience is that units or neighborhoods occupied by riskier tenants, landlords prefer to have M2M because they expect to be evicting a fair number of them or have them run off in the middle of the night. The LLs I know that have nicer units, like myself, wouldn't consider going M2M on anything but a known tenant - i.e., our leases allow tenants who don't want to reup after a year to go M2M at that time for an additional fee.
Also, it may be more valuable to use M2M in "tenant-friendly" states. If it can take a lifetime to get someone gone, it would be definitely worth considering. I am in a LL friendly state.
My experience shows all the above reasons are irrelevant as a M2M provides the same lease language as a term.
Rent increases are annual regardless of the lease in most jurisdictions.
Vacancies are at the control of the tenant with a term lease, with a M2M tenants are far more communicative with the landlord as opposed to informing them they are breaking their lease at the last moment.
Good tenants have no issues with a M2M where as bad tenants will be reluctant to sign a M2M.
Term lease only protects the tenants and does nothing to protect a landlord that a M2M can not do as well.
A M2M places some control in the hands of a landlord while a term lease places a tenant in full control for the duration.
A termination of a M2M is less costly and faster than a eviction. Therefore less loss for the landlord.
Landlords provide term leases because it is the common policy of the industry not for any other reason.
There is zero documented proof a term lease has any advantage to a landlord.
It is obvious a M2M has definite advantages in saving landlord costs when terminating a tenant that a term lease does not provide.
The majority of posts on here are about having, dealing with or getting rid of bad tenants.
