How I got dumped by the Company that manages my property

How I got dumped by the Company that manages my property

Rental Property Investor · Trabuco Canyon, CA · Member since 2014 · 134 posts · 78 votes

Have you ever been ditched by your Property Management Company because the tenant they put in your property never paid a dime above their move in cost and you dared to question their tenant selection criteria?

One measurement that most of the management companies are bragging about is their low vacancy rate. The lower their vacancy rate is, the higher their income is. The smart investors are looking for a Property Management company with low vacancy rate but no management company tells you how they are actually calculating it. And there are a lot of ways to bend the truth. 

An excellent way to keep that rate low is to put anyone that can fog a mirror in as fast as they can. And to speed up that process, offer them a move-in special of 50% off their first month rent. The owner pays for any specials offered and they can start charging management fees immediately.  Unfortunately this creates an incentive for some "professional tenants" to pay 1.5 months rent and stay in your property for 3+ months. That is 1.5+ months of free rent for the tenant. Meanwhile you, the owner, are stuck with no income, eviction expenses, lawyer fees, maintenance and repairs, taxes, insurance, loan payment, city code violation fees and vacancies. If the owner complains, you the management company dumps you immediately, unless they manage more than one or your properties. But if you have only one, it is best for them to get rid of you. And this is exactly what happened to me.

The industry's dirty little secret is getting rid of all owners for which you have high vacancies due to bad management and/or bad tenant screening. Doing it early and doing it often, will allow advertising low vacancies rates and lower their expenses because finding new tenants is too much time consuming.  And this is something no one is talking about.

Not having to deal with complaining owners permits them to have more properties with owners/tenants that never complain or question your methods. This works for as long as they have more owners asking them to manage their properties. And if they have a high profile they would never run out of sucker.

Have you had any similar experience, please comment below.

Here is the email exchange that led to getting me dumped by my property management company (Zzz is not their real name. I have replaced/removed the names of the actual company/people names because they are big on BP and I don't want to get my post censured and/or removed. Everything else is copied verbatim):

On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 1:41 PM Support Zzz Realty wrote:

Hi Borislav,

Your previous statement is available to you on your owner portal under the documents tab.

As property management we can and occasionally do run move in specials - which is not uncommon and is often times first months free.

Without a move in special a tenant would be required to pay a full months rent plus deposit if moving in on the first of the month.

If they are moving in between the 1st and the 15th they are required to pay pro-rate plus deposit (no move in special).

If they move in between the 16th and the end of the month they are required to pay pro-rate, plus full following month, plus deposit (No move in special).

During times of cooler weather or historically slow months in terms of leasing, move-in specials are used as a means to place a tenant quicker without lagging in the pre-qualification area.

During slowing months if we don’t run a move in special - it could increase vacancy time immensely - especially during the colder months.

As has been explained to you before we have a very extensive application process for ALL tenants.

Bad tenants are a known risk to owning rental properties no matter who places the tenants.

It is very easy to look to your property management company for blame and if this is the way that you feel I do apologize and assure you that we do everything in our power to place good quality tenants that will stay and pay - but there is no way to guarantee that … nobody can.

If you choose, you may indeed take your business else where but we value you as an investor and would very much prefer you to trust us so that we can continue to manage your property.

Every choice made in this office is made with the best interest of our investors at the front of mind.

Your net income since August of 2016 is $13,944.26 based on the sales price of $55,997 that puts you at a 10% ROI year after year.

We started managing your property at that time and had a tenant placed in September or 2016.

That tenant paid on time for the majority of his tenancy and resided in the property for 2 years and the property needed minimal work before being re-tenanted in October.

The tenant was indeed a bad tenant - however, as explained this is a risk with rental properties and was not due to lack of research and diligence on our end.

There is also very minimal work needed to get the unit ready to re-rent as has been explained to you in a separate email and this will be covered by the deposit as well.

I do hope this answers all of your questions but if you do have any other questions, please let me know.

Thank you and have a wonderful day,

Zzz

On Jan 3, 2019, at 6:13 PM, Borislav wrote:

Thank you for the documents.

in the future, please do not offer 1/2 of the first month off on my properties.

If you want to have a special, give them 1/2 month off on the last month of their lease or drop the rent price.by 5%. Anything but let people in with less that 2 months of rent. If they cannot save for 1 month rent and full deposit, then they would have problems paying rent when something unexpected happens.

And for god sake do not tell me what is my return on investment because first, this is unprofessional and second you have no idea of what my expenses are. you are forgetting small things like, taxes, insurance, maintenance, evictions, code compliance penalties, vacancies, interest on the loan, etc.

Borislav

The Owner

On Fri, Jan 4, 2019 at 8:45 AM Support Zzz Realty wrote:

Hi Borislav -

We are very disappointed with your email below.

Our staff works very hard and we are dedicated to providing the best service possible to our investors.

We strive to maintain a professional and respectful relationship with all of our investors and do expect the same thing in return.

As your property management company your cashflow is of great importance to us.

We do apologize that you feel we have been unprofessional in any way as that was not our intention.

It is quite obvious that you don’t trust us and do not like that way that we manage your property despite the fact that you have had very little vacancy time in the 2.5 years we have been managing your property. (We began management in August of 2016 and placed a tenant in September of the same year. That tenant was a good tenant for 2 years. The turn was minimal and a new tenant was placed in the same month as the previous one vacated).

As much as we’d like to continue managing your property we feel it is best to allow this to be your 30 day notice.

Please take this time to find a new company to manage your property.

We will be closing out your account as of February 4, 2019.

Once you find a new property manager, we would be more than happy to provide them keys to your property as well as tenant information if there is a new tenant at that time.

We appreciate the business relationship that we have had and do wish you success and luck in all of your future endeavors.

We have done our best to provide you with the best service possible and feel like we have exceeded expectations.

It is very unfortunate that we have lost your trust somewhere throughout the way.

Please let us know if you have any questions or needs in the mean time.

Thank you and have a wonderful day,

Zzz

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Most Popular Reply

Russell BrazilBusiness Member
Moderator
Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes
7y

A $55k rental property is going to have a sub par pool of tenants. If you dont expect to have non paying tenants at that price point, you dont have realistic expectations for that asset class.

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Rental Property Investor · Haverhill, MA · Member since 2017 · 290 posts · 185 votes
    7y

    That’s pretty interesting.  It’s alarming that they would run a move in special without the owners approval.  Bottom line though is that no one cares about your property more than you.  With that said, why trust someone else with the management?  Buy local and keep your eyes on your investment.

  • Property Manager · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2018 · 75 posts · 70 votes
    7y

    Hi @Bobby Narinov,

    I've never heard of a SF property holding specials like this, especially without the owners consent. The only way this even makes sense to me would be if they were offering that as an incentive, but it had to be prorated across the lease with a minimum lease term(Kind of similar to your advice of the 5% off of rent.. Example would be $1200/month with a 13 month lease offering one month free prorated across the lease) With that being said, you're probably lucky they fired you so you can look for someone else to manage your property!

    -LK

  • Patrick LiskaPro Member
    Investor · Verona, NJ · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 832 votes
    7y

    1st they should not have run a special on your property without you knowing, but they did get it filled, which is better than it being vacant - as long as the tenant pays. 2nd,PM's know your numbers more than you may, that's their business, don't kid yourself when you think they don't know your taxes and what you may be paying for mortgage, they know what you got the house for and can make a good educated guess on that and the insurance you probably pay, my PM is pretty close to knowing my exact numbers and i pay all taxes, mortgage and insurance. you do have to keep an eye on what there doing and the monthly statements, that is your property and money and it is not wrong to question them, but you also need to feel you can trust them in matters as well. sounds like you had one bad tenant after a good one, it happens, i am assuming this is your only property? this may be something that will happen again, no matter what PM co. you hire, it happens, were all human and it unfortunately is part of the business.

  • Specialist · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2016 · 384 posts · 318 votes
    7y

    @Bobby Narinov, sorry for your bad experience but this is something the RE investing community doesn't talk about much. The fact of the matter is, the bigger you are, the more respect you command. So your best solution to this kind of issue is to get more units. 

    Yes, you can find a good, honest PM who will treat your 1 rental with the respect it deserves. However, you'll find a lot more PM's who will treat your properties with respect when you have 5, 8, 15 or more units with them. This business is similar to any other...the little guy gets pushed around until he either quits or finds a way to become the big guy.

  • Rental Property Investor · Trabuco Canyon, CA · Member since 2014 · 134 posts · 78 votes
    7y

    @Dick Stevens i do buy local. Aside from this property I have 10 other properties (34 doors) that I manage myself in my spare time (I have a full time very demanding day time job). This one is a 4 years experiment that includes bad property management companies galore. At leas this last one was not investigated by the FBI like my previous one. See my other posts about that saga.

    Well I guess, when you get too big, you forget what made you successful and you start messing up the smaller investors.  And it is all downhill from here on.

  • Rental Property Investor · Trabuco Canyon, CA · Member since 2014 · 134 posts · 78 votes
    7y

    @Patrick Liska If they knew my numbers better than me, they would have given me a number significantly lower ROI. The fact that they didn't can be explained by one of three reasons:

    1. They are liars and bad persons in general
    2. They are incompetent
    3. They are misinformed
    4. All of the above

    I decided that they are just misinformed because all other options are extremely bad. But I am inclined to believe you that they know all that stuff which means they are incompetent, liars or both.

  • Rental Property Investor · Trabuco Canyon, CA · Member since 2014 · 134 posts · 78 votes
    7y

    Here is the actual calculation for my ROI based on the numbers Zzz Realty conveniently decide to ignore:

    Date Start 08/01/16

    Date End 12/31/18

    Num Months 28

    Purchase Price $55,997.00

    Closing Cost $ 2,125.61

    Actual Cost $58,122.61

    Income (as per Zzz Realty) $13,944.26

    Insurance/year $ 621.00

    Insurance/Month $ 51.75

    Insurance for period $ 1,449.00

    Maintenance Total $ 1,413.77

    Eviction total $ 527.50

    Unpaid tenant bills $ 339.48

    Total Expenses $ 3,729.75

    Total Income $10,214.51

    ROI as per Zzz Realty 10.28%

    Actual ROI 7.53%

    ROI Diff 26.75%

    A 26.75% difference between their calculation and mine. I would say, this is not a rounding error.

    In the above I am not including the additional $300, I was asked to pay so they can get my property in a rent-able condition. Because I don't know how long it would have taken them, I am not including the vacancy time for repairs and finding a new tenant. Last time it took them more than a month but we know how great that tenant was. Also, I expect to have some additional unpaid utility bills that I have to cover (the city of Toledo OH is extremely landlord unfriendly), like I had to do when the previous tenant moved out. If I have to account for all those things, the ROI would drop to 6.75% per year and even lower.

  • Rental Property Investor · Durham, NC · Member since 2016 · 7k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    7y

    @Bobby Narinov. To be honest I think you’re both at fault a little. They probably just don’t need your business if you just have the one home. What market is this in? They shouldn’t run specials without you consenting to that (that’s their fault) and you probably shouldn’t have written an email like you did. That was unprofessional. 2.5 years with little vacancy is pretty good. Bad tenants are always possible. Good luck

  • Patrick LiskaPro Member
    Investor · Verona, NJ · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 832 votes
    7y

    Bobby,

     The 10.28% the PM was quoting you i am sure was based on the numbers they have, not the overall numbers with what you pay, which gives you the actual 7.53 %, i think you miss read their email. Yes they said your purchase was 55,997 but your actual after closing was 58,122.61, like i said, they can guess pretty close, they wouldn't know the actual costs ( taxes are pro rated at closing, they could figure that out) but it's not their job, they gave you a number based on the numbers they actually have vs. the actual numbers. I do agree with @Russell Gronsky on this, you only gave them one property for them to manage, they will not treat you the same as if you gave them all your properties to manage.

    My 1st property, i went to a PM and was starting to go back and forth with questions, they started to not answer me, i went to a different PM that just started at the time i started. that realtor then sold out to another ( i am at 7 properties at that point ) i am not happy with the new PM so i went back to the 1st one and after a good long meeting i went with them, to this day they still apologize for not communicating more at that time with me. the reason i believe, is because they were the only PM in town at the time and i only came to them with one property, now, today, there are 3 PM's in town, i know them all personally at this time, but they now know that i am a serious investor in town as well and they wanted my business so they gave me some good managing deals, better than the other 2. I have used them for a year now and besides a couple of accounting confusions i have not had a problem with them or getting a hold of anyone in the company. i also got a call yesterday from the PM that started the 2nd company i had gone with, she has started that 3rd company a month ago and has sent me listings of properties and wants to do business with me again. 

     I have had 2 evictions so far in the 5 years i have been doing this, both from tenants my PM have reviewed and approved, unfortunately you are not going to get great tenants all the time and is a part of doing this business. I just feel there has been some miss communication between you and the PM. you may run things a little different then a PM company may and maybe it's not what you expected it to be. try out another company, but sit down with them and explain to them what you are looking for.

  • Russell BrazilBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes
    7y

    A $55k rental property is going to have a sub par pool of tenants. If you dont expect to have non paying tenants at that price point, you dont have realistic expectations for that asset class.

  • Rental Property Investor · Trabuco Canyon, CA · Member since 2014 · 134 posts · 78 votes
    7y

    @Caleb Heimsoth there are no perfect people. Could I have handled the things better: Yes I could. I am always open to see the other side view and discuss it. But in this case the other side refused to talk. Maybe they are not used to any confrontation and even the slightest one is triggering them. I never questioned the amount of money they are making from me so I do not see the relevance of how much money they help me make. To me their response felt like: "You greedy XoX, we helped you make 10%+ ROI so shut up and let us manage your place whatever way we want to. You are not competent enough to have any input anyways". I tried to clarify that in my second email but there is always a possibility for misunderstanding.

    @Patrick Liska I do understand that a person with more properties is more valuable than a single property person. But if you don't care about your single property owners, just stop wasting your time and their time and put a minimum of 5 properties requirement (or whatever other arbitrary number you want). A good professional company will try to give all of their customers the best service they can despite their size. Based on your comments above, it looks to me that you are advocating for bad service for everyone but the multiple property owners. About the ROIs, my point was exactly that: you cannot quote one without knowing all the facts. Guesstimating ROI is a sign of unprofessional-ism.

  • Investor · Greenville, SC · Member since 2016 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    7y

    Sorry to hear about your situation.  There are many investors who have experienced challenges with 3rd party management (and unapproved concessions are unacceptable).

    Now the tough love part...it's going to be difficult to make a profit with a $500-600/mth rental purchased for $55K (and impossible with 3rd party management...have to factor in extra vacancy and higher repair cost).  Maybe I have the math wrong...$14K in rent over 28 months.  That rent to price ratio will take hands-on, precise execution, and little capex.

  • Nathan GesnerBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
    7y

    You have a $55,000 rental and had NET earnings of over $10,000. That's not bad. If you wanted better performance, you should have been more careful in your selection of property.

    The fact that your PM is spending the time to explain this to you tells me they're not just a rip-off company. Maybe they're not the best but it certainly sounds like they are trying to look out for your best interests.

    They should never offer a discount without owner approval.

    Discounted rent should be on the second month, not on the first. You want to be sure the tenant can afford the rental by making them pay a full month of rent and deposit prior to move-in, then you can discount the second month.

    I think you're both culpable.

    The DIY Landlord Book4.7248 Reviews
  • Rental Property Investor · Trabuco Canyon, CA · Member since 2014 · 134 posts · 78 votes
    7y

    @Russell Brazil I do expect a lot of bad tenants at this price point. This is the price where the majority of the professional tenants come at. That is why you do a better screening and you definitely not let them in with only 1.5 months of payment. A professional tenant knows that it will take you several months to evict them so living 1.5 months for free and sticking the owner with the utility bills is a great deal for them. I have 27 units with that level of tenants. People that cannot come up with two months of rent to pay their move-in costs always have problems paying their rent. Offering them an upfront incentive backfires [almost] every time.

  • Rental Property Investor · Trabuco Canyon, CA · Member since 2014 · 134 posts · 78 votes
    7y

    @Nathan Gesner you glossed over the thread. the $10,000.00 profit is over 2.5 years (28 months). 

  • Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    7y

    3rd party management is a mine field.  Many of the best landlords bring the management in-house, because they can monitor their properties more effectively.  

    Some of these landlords take on 3rd party assignments in addition to their holdings.  Sometimes this can be a conflict of interest.  If they find a super tenant, you can be sure they may steer them to their own property.

    I've finally had luck with finding a property manager, who does only a portion of the management services.  They do rent collections, some accounting, maintenance requests.   I retain the leasing, apartment turnovers and building maintenance.   We've butt heads a few times, but I leave them to their job.  

    One of the problems with property managers is that it is a low margin business.  So you get what you pay for.  These companies have to manage lots of properties to be viable, so yours doesn't always get the best attention.  Not surprisingly, they may fire certain clients that take too much time - or when they know they screwed up.  

    I think it is the other way around - property managers get fired far more than they fire their clients.

  • Nathan GesnerBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Bobby Narinov:

    @Nathan Gesner you glossed over the thread. the $10,000.00 profit is over 2.5 years (28 months). 

     You have to admit, it's a really long post. I didn't "gloss over it" but I also couldn't retain every single detail.

    My original opinion sticks. I think you're doing pretty well considering the investment. I think the PM could be doing some things better but I also think they're doing pretty well and certainly taking the time to communicate with you.

    If you're not happy with their performance, communicate with them in writing and request/suggest changes. If that doesn't work, try another property manager and see if they're any better. I'll be happy to give you a list of suggestions on how to screen property managers.

    The DIY Landlord Book4.7248 Reviews
  • Burnaby, BC · Member since 2017 · 282 posts · 268 votes
    7y

    My thoughts:

    - Unusual to reduce rent without the owner's permission and odd that they would drop you as a client when I assume they charge a % each month to manage and is in their best interest to keep you as a client unless you start making demands that are unreasonable or take up a large part of their time

    - I don't think a move-in special is necessarily a bad idea, depends on the location. Some areas every property management company is offering discounted rent for new tenants so you have to have a promo to be competitive

    - They did at least seem very professional in their email and dealing with you

    - Its hard finding a good property manager. Usually their interests are not aligned with the owners or they dont' care much once they put a tenant into your property.

  • Lafayette, CA · Member since 2013 · 91 posts · 45 votes
    7y
    @Bobby Narinov O.M.G.! Consider it a gift that you have been set free from this pathetic unprofessional property management company.
  • Laguna Niguel, CA · Member since 2012 · 122 posts · 58 votes
    7y

    Pretty long winded response from the PM company.  I would prefer this type of detail and explanation over a few sentences or a few word response though.  Anyway, I'm not clear from your post what the PM did incorrectly when selecting the tenant.  Typically, the PM would provide you a list of min criteria for a tenant.  If you don't agree, then you are free to change some part of it (ie. PM sets min FICO of 650, but you want 675).  Are you saying that the PM company ignored part of the tenant selection criteria when selecting the "bad" tenant?

    Also, does your agreement with them have any verbiage that states they can run a "move-in" special?  Personally, I always view my listings after the PM posts them so I can verify the content.  Maybe yours had move-in special in the description which could have been addressed right after the listing went live.

  • Real Estate Broker · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2017 · 719 posts · 658 votes
    7y

    The only thing they did wrong - giving that half month rent for free without your consent. I see it here all the time: big buildings offer their apartment first month free or something like that.

    Everything else sounds good and their communication is very professional so is their work on managing your property. $500/mo Rent is not going to get you any good Tenants so the cost of evictions, holding costs like utilities - all that goes with territory.

    Judging by your numbers, it was a bad buy to start with: $58K property yielding $500/mo gross rent is not even 1%! With properties in A or B neiborhoods it could work but this is definitely low class property.....should be 2-3% 

    I don't want to sound harsh but I wouldn't consider you as a client as well.....not because of one property - all my clients start there. I prefer respectful clients who can discuss the issues less emotionally. 

    This is a tough business by itself to add heated debates with the owners - Tenants will squeeze life out of you, especially in such low income area. 

    I get it that the PM company was not communicating well - but most big companies don't. They won't even answer emails leave alone phone calls. That discount on first month rent should have been discussed in details up front, especially it's your first time.

    I hope you'll find better PM company for you and get awesome communication with them: this the relationship business and it's crucial to establish rapport. Just try to be less critical when people do good job for you - Nobody will manage your property as good as you do but 80/20 is better than 50/50 or nothing at all.

    Good luck!

  • Rental Property Investor · Corrales, NM · Member since 2016 · 114 posts · 28 votes
    7y

    Tone in an email can come across very different than what is intended.  Your response and request on how to handle future tenants probably should have been done by phone and then confirmed by email.  

  • Rental Property Investor · Trabuco Canyon, CA · Member since 2014 · 134 posts · 78 votes
    7y

    @Eric C. I don't think they did anything that is 100% wrong during the tenant selection process. I am trying crucify them because they did something that is out of their control. The problem that I have with them is that after I asked them to no longer offer move-in discounts, they decided to kick me to the curb. That is what is inexcusable here.

    Property management companies are a lot like like Insurance companies. When everything is perfect you may think you have an excellent partner but you can only see their true face when things go bad. Then you will see if they will help you stand up or kick you while you are on the ground. And up until now everything was great.

    Up until now ... 

    Bad tenants are part of doing business and it is always better to have a no tenant then to have a bad tenant. A bad tenant can cause you $100,000+ of damage and no amount of security deposit can save you from that. But there are certain ways to lower your chances of getting stuck with a really bad one.

    For example: an applicant that is willing to pay you maximum deposit (2 months for California), plus prorated rent till the end of the month plus a full rent for the next month (all cash) and wants to move in tonight may be a great tenant but chances are that they are been evicted by their current landlord. The money they are giving you are saved only because they didn't pay rent for the last 6 months, sold all appliances, water heater, garbage disposer and the toilet bawl, didn't pay their utility bills for a big portion of their stay and managed to squeeze additional $2,000.00 as cash-for-keys from their last landlord. Good tenants are difficult to find and they know their value, they are not going to offer you something they don't have if they really have nothing to hide.

  • Rental Property Investor · Trabuco Canyon, CA · Member since 2014 · 134 posts · 78 votes
    7y

    @Irina Belkofer Here in California we are used to the 0.25% rule, if you are lucky. :)

    I want to make a small correction to your numbers. I don't know who gave the wrong numbers but the gross rent for this property is $800.00/month, not the $500/month you are quoting. This puts this property at 1.38%. That is about 6 times higher than what we can get here in California.

    If I have access to 3% properties that bring $800+/month in rent, I would be retired in less than 2 years and probably be drinking cocktails on some beach in Brazil. :)

  • Rental Property Investor · Trabuco Canyon, CA · Member since 2014 · 134 posts · 78 votes
    7y

    My property is located at 48xx Burnham Ave, Toledo OH 43612.

    I've been told (by the seller) that this is a lower B class area with strong blue-collar working class families.

    I have never been in Toledo so I am not sure what area it is located. If there is someone from Toledo that can clarify that, please let me know.

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