Investor · Dallas, TX · Member since 2016 · 887 posts · 1k+ votes
BP community, I'm in need of advice from seasoned STR property managers. I have been in the STR game for about 3 years now. Just recently I acquired another STR, this one out of state from where I live.
The property I'm referring to is in Albuquerque and is a very nice single-family home. It's a beautiful custom home, the nicest house in the area.
We have a rule that we make all reservations acknowledge before accepting. We tell them that absolutely no visitors or guests are allowed at the property under any circumstance. Only the individuals that are identified at the time of booking are allowed at the house.
We are very early on in this process w/ this home (I think less than 5 reservations) and a very high amount of the reservations are violating the rule. It's the kind of home that they probably want to show off to their friends/ family, etc. Again, it's big, fully custom, and very nice. That said, what can I do to enforce this rule? I really want to preserve my "super host" status if all possible - but enforcing our house rules is more important to me that my status.
I would like to know how other STR managers have dealt with this situation. In my other STR this is not a problem at all. However, it's a guest house, so I don't think people come here with the intention of having gatherings & hanging out with friends.
I do STR in Albuquerque as well but have never had an issue with unknown guests however our place is very small. When I was doing it on a larger scale we had an issue with people smoking so we included: "As a reminder, we have a strict non-smoking policy (illegal or legal) and by booking you are subject to a $500 security deposit if this rule is not followed. Additionally, there is a $300 per guest per night fee for any guests over the two guest occupancy. If you do not plan on abiding by these rules, we advise you cancel immediately."
I'm not sure of its enforceability but it was really effective and made people think twice. You could also set an extra guest fee over a certain amount and make it a high number.
I do STR in Albuquerque as well but have never had an issue with unknown guests however our place is very small. When I was doing it on a larger scale we had an issue with people smoking so we included: "As a reminder, we have a strict non-smoking policy (illegal or legal) and by booking you are subject to a $500 security deposit if this rule is not followed. Additionally, there is a $300 per guest per night fee for any guests over the two guest occupancy. If you do not plan on abiding by these rules, we advise you cancel immediately."
I'm not sure of its enforceability but it was really effective and made people think twice. You could also set an extra guest fee over a certain amount and make it a high number.
Investor · Dallas, TX · Member since 2016 · 887 posts · 1k+ votes
4y
Thanks Joshua, appreciate the feedback. I was hoping to avoid the situation all together. Further, in that scenario they could have a gathering with 4-5 extra people that don't stay the night. That would be a loophole that would get them around paying a high per night rate for additional guests.
I really think that it's the type of place that tempts people to want to have friends over and host gatherings.
There must be a lot of other hosts who are in this exact situation. I see some absolutely stunning homes on Airbnb/ VRBO.
Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
4y
@Greg R. How do you know they are having guests over? And when do you find this out? Are these guests staying overnight or just stopping by for a beer?
Investor · Dallas, TX · Member since 2016 · 887 posts · 1k+ votes
4y
We have a doorbell cam, and outdoor cameras (which are stated on our listing). I get alerts from these cams when people are spotted. It's both shorter visits and longer ones. But it doesn't matter, our rules are extremely clear. Each reservation must agree/ acknowledge this rule before we accept the reservation. We explicitly tell them "no other visitors or guests are allowed at the house under any circumstances. The only people permitted at the home are those who are on the reservation". The must say that they agree before we accept.
Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
4y
In that case, I would text/call the instant you realize that someone else is on the property...before they get comfortable.
How do you get your guests to acknowledge this rule? Is it virtual (I assume)? Maybe get them to sign a contract as soon as they book the house? And put in large CAPS in your listing description that visitors are not allowed. And large signs in the house, too....?
Bel Air, CA · Member since 2017 · 165 posts · 47 votes
4y
When i first relocated stayed at Extended Stay (Hotel) and noticed nextdoor was literally open door hosting orgies all night all weeklong; obviously quiet enjoyment was null til got out of there as the hotel was apparently okay with it as the steady line of visitors to the room didnt stay all night maybe just an hour at most each!
Would think AirBNB or whatever 3rd party you're sourcing STTs from would have a policy in place where extra $$$ comes out whenever people bring extra overnighters?
In that case, I would text/call the instant you realize that someone else is on the property...before they get comfortable.
How do you get your guests to acknowledge this rule? Is it virtual (I assume)? Maybe get them to sign a contract as soon as they book the house? And put in large CAPS in your listing description that visitors are not allowed. And large signs in the house, too....?
I did that. I sent a message and after not getting a response I sent a text. I respectfully asked to have the renter have all visitors leave immediately. She responded to text and said that she would have them leave, but didn't. It got late and I fell asleep. When I woke up this AM I realized that the extra visitors never left and are still there.
Trust me, we message with them and make it extremely clear before we accept the reservation. Unless the explicitly acknowledge and accept that condition, we do not accept the reservation. I don't have signs up. It's a beautiful, fully custom house. I don't want to post signs around like it's a four-plex.
When i first relocated stayed at Extended Stay (Hotel) and noticed nextdoor was literally open door hosting orgies all night all weeklong; obviously quiet enjoyment was null til got out of there as the hotel was apparently okay with it as the steady line of visitors to the room didnt stay all night maybe just an hour at most each!
Would think AirBNB or whatever 3rd party you're sourcing STTs from would have a policy in place where extra $$$ comes out whenever people bring extra overnighters?
Wow, lol. Sorry you had to go through that. Again, for me it's not about collecting a few extra bucks, I do not want that many people at my house tearing up the place.
In that case, I would text/call the instant you realize that someone else is on the property...before they get comfortable.
How do you get your guests to acknowledge this rule? Is it virtual (I assume)? Maybe get them to sign a contract as soon as they book the house? And put in large CAPS in your listing description that visitors are not allowed. And large signs in the house, too....?
I did that. I sent a message and after not getting a response I sent a text. I respectfully asked to have the renter have all visitors leave immediately. She responded to text and said that she would have them leave, but didn't. It got late and I fell asleep. When I woke up this AM I realized that the extra visitors never left and are still there.
Trust me, we message with them and make it extremely clear before we accept the reservation. Unless the explicitly acknowledge and accept that condition, we do not accept the reservation. I don't have signs up. It's a beautiful, fully custom house. I don't want to post signs around like it's a four-plex.
I understand not wanting signs. Me either. I still have a couple laminated signs on the fridge with the 'rules' that are most important to me.
If your current approach doesn't work, you are going to have to step up the 'bad cop' approach. You have their ph # from ABB/VRBO. Call them and call ABB/VRBO immediately next time this happens. Make the penalties clear. I don't know what else you can do...call the cops over it? Maybe.....
Too bad you have to go thru this, can't people just do as they agreed to...? Sigh.......
Investor · Dallas, TX · Member since 2016 · 887 posts · 1k+ votes
4y
Good points, thank you @Bruce Woodruff. Even though this is a large home, I'm going to lower my max occupancy to 5 or 6. I started off with 8 and lowered it to 7. I am also going to word my initial message to requesting guests even stronger... here's what I'm thinking:
"I must highlight a very important rule before we accept the reservation. We have a firm rule of no visitors or guests allowed on premise. Only the people identified on the reservation are allowed at the home. Violations of this rule will result in immediate cancellation of your stay and a $500 penalty.
If you need a place that can accommodate visitors, we are unable to host you. However, if you agree to this rule, we're happy to accept your reservation."
Good points, thank you @Bruce Woodruff. Even though this is a large home, I'm going to lower my max occupancy to 5 or 6. I started off with 8 and lowered it to 7. I am also going to word my initial message to requesting guests even stronger... here's what I'm thinking:
"I must highlight a very important rule before we accept the reservation. We have a firm rule of no visitors or guests allowed on premise. Only the people identified on the reservation are allowed at the home. Violations of this rule will result in immediate cancellation of your stay and a $500 penalty.
If you need a place that can accommodate visitors, we are unable to host you. However, if you agree to this rule, we're happy to accept your reservation."
Thoughts?
I think that's very wise. One of our STRs has 4 bedrooms and we decided to make 2 of them non-bedrooms (office and yoga room) to eliminate the large group/party atmosphere. Sure we lost a little money, but no issues form large groups and much easier clean-up and low wear and tear made it a great decision. We're creeping up our prices so that there is not much difference between the 4BR vs 2BR anyway....as a long time businessman, I learned early on that NET is way more important than GROSS.
Just a thought...is there any way you could turn this SFR into a nice duplex...get 2 STRs out of it?
Investor · Dallas, TX · Member since 2016 · 887 posts · 1k+ votes
4y
@Bruce Woodruff, that's really good info, thank you! I am going to change the 4th bedroom to an office and advertise it as a 3/3 instead of a 4/3. Unfortunately, there is no way to convert this into (2) STRs.
However, I understand what you're getting at. Going forward I'm going to focus on smaller places for the reasons you cited above. The larger homes are turning out to be a pain in the *** (in my opinion).
However, this is one that we intended to occupy for a fair amount of the time. It's about a block away from my wife's parents house - hence us buying the place. For the convenience of my family, I needed a larger home to accommodate us (family of 4).
Regardless, I think that I've learned some lessons with this one. I don't think I'll be buying any more larger STRs. In addition to all the cons that you listed above, I spent a fortune furnishing and decorating this place. The bigger the place, the more furniture, decor, etc. That's another big con that I didn't fully anticipate when I first bought the place. Not to mention, more maintenance. A lot cheaper to replace a roof, or flooring, or paint a smaller place compared to a 3,000+ sqft place. Also, big utility bills, two HVAC units, etc., etc.
Investor · Marietta, GA · Member since 2015 · 382 posts · 258 votes
4y
@Greg R.
This sounds frustrating for you Greg. I skimmed over the post and replies and was not entirely clear if these were people visiting the guests or additional overnight guests not on the reservation. I have friends all over the country and have visited my friends in an AirBnB as well as have been visited in my own Airbnb. Although I would not support unregistered guests staying in the Airbnb overnight or throughout the entire stay, I would argue that it is unrealistic for you to expect that people (guests and their friends) are not going to be coming and going when they’re on vacation or whatever. People like to entertain and that’s what houses are for. That’s a service you’re providing. Maybe it’s a little bit uncomfortable for you because they’re trying to flex using your nice property but if it’s just people in and out in a responsible way during the day, I’m not really sure I would have an issue with that. Also consider that maybe some of your guest’s are single(s) and maybe they’re out meeting people and they want to bring others back for “whatever”. Airbnb‘s are fun vacation experiences. Consider to some degree that you may be a bit to much of the fun police here. With that being said, if all these extra people are causing an unreasonable amount damage to your property or staying overnight, then that’s different.
Investor · Dallas, TX · Member since 2016 · 887 posts · 1k+ votes
4y
@Jonathan G. if you were interested in one of my Airbnb listings and I explicitly told you that I have a firm policy on NO VISITORS under any circumstance... would you agree to those terms and then bring visitors over anyways? If so, it's people like you that are part of the problem.
I am not tricking people into renting my place and then trying to be a "fun police". I am very clear and explicit about the rules BEFORE the reservation is accepted. If the terms of my house aren't acceptable for the renter, I totally understand. They have no obligation to rent my place and they have every opportunity to move on to another property that will allow gatherings/ parties.
If it's a single person, or a couple and they intend to have another single person or couple over that's fine. They need to identify that at the time of booking and be clear about their intentions. My max occupancy supports both of those scenarios.
The issue is guests stating that they have "x" number of people and agreeing to my terms of not having anyone else at the house beyond the individuals identified at the time of booking. They then check in and decide to host gatherings/ parties and entertain at my house, which is in direct violation to the house rules and our agreement.
Investor · Dallas, TX · Member since 2016 · 887 posts · 1k+ votes
4y
@Jonathan G. just to follow up, I don't have this rule just to be petty or to be a tyrant. You can read countless horror stories about abusive STR guests that have ruined relationships with neighbors, had run ins with the police, destroyed property, disrespected cleaning crews, etc. You seem to be operating under the assumption that all guests are normal & respectful people. If that were the case, there would be no need for a policy like this. However, there are a lot of disrespectful low life individuals who don't care about respecting neighbors and property. I've had a couple of those experiences already, including stolen items from the house, vomit inside my house, people getting drunk and peeing in the front yard in clear view of neighbors/ other houses, recently an idiot thought it was a good idea to put out a cigarette on my stucco... yes, really.
Yes, it's part of the business, I get it. However, us STR business owners not only have the right, but we have an obligation to do our best to prevent things like this from happening at our properties.
Real Estate Agent · Sisters, OR · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
4y
If there is problem when they leave file it. If the cocaine and strippers come out then you may want to take some action. But if it’s just aunt Betsy let it go.
Investor · Dallas, TX · Member since 2016 · 887 posts · 1k+ votes
4y
@Eric Bilderback here is some more context... The max occupancy is 7, however, the guest made the reservation request for 4. After she accepted my terms (about no visitors), she messaged and asked to change the reservation to 8 guests, which exceeds my max occupancy. I am a reasonable person and want to accommodate, so I told her that I would accept but that the no visitor rule is firm, no negotiation - in which she agreed again.
Come night 2, we have the 8 people as identified in the reservation, then another 4 show up. They are drinking, being loud, taking shots, etc. I have fairly good audio on my outdoor cams so I have a pretty good idea of what's going on, especially when they are being loud/ partying. Further, one of the visitors walked out of my front door and hangs a right out of camera view (about 1:00am), and about 30 seconds later he comes back and is zipping up his pants. I'm pretty sure he was taking a piss in my front yard.
I messaged the guest via the app and no response. I assumed the guests left then, but I didn't take too close of a look as it was late for me. It was actually the guy going out in the front yard to take a piss.
Trust me, if it was just uncle bubba and aunt ruth hanging out for a few hours in the day, I wouldn't have minded.
We truly do want our guests to have a good time and enjoy themselves. Me and my wife want to provide an amazing experience for them, which we strive to do. What I don't want is them causing problems with my neighbors - which will create unneeded drama for me and jeopardize my STR.
@Jonathan G. if you were interested in one of my Airbnb listings and I explicitly told you that I have a firm policy on NO VISITORS under any circumstance... would you agree to those terms and then bring visitors over anyways? If so, it's people like you that are part of the problem.
I am not tricking people into renting my place and then trying to be a "fun police". I am very clear and explicit about the rules BEFORE the reservation is accepted. If the terms of my house aren't acceptable for the renter, I totally understand. They have no obligation to rent my place and they have every opportunity to move on to another property that will allow gatherings/ parties.
If it's a single person, or a couple and they intend to have another single person or couple over that's fine. They need to identify that at the time of booking and be clear about their intentions. My max occupancy supports both of those scenarios.
The issue is guests stating that they have "x" number of people and agreeing to my terms of not having anyone else at the house beyond the individuals identified at the time of booking. They then check in and decide to host gatherings/ parties and entertain at my house, which is in direct violation to the house rules and our agreement.
The original post got my attention as some replies have as well…. I may have missed it but is this your first STR listing with any platform? Or is this your first out-of-state STR on a separate profile from your original profile (on airbnb Vrbo) etc?
It sounds like your under a lot of stress, and i can definitely commiserate with you there. I think my second or third booking ever had booked under the pretense of his brother coming into town to take him out for his birthday. Next morning… kid was actually local and throwing a 21st bday party, posted it all over social media, then strangers arrive, and party. We head over in the morning after not being able to reach the guest only to find holes in the wall, doors left wide open and a bullet hold through my 1950 Buick, and a few more through the back of the house into the laundry room. Cops, insurance, photos etc… the whole deal man, it sucked! not to mention the guests who were arriving that same day were delayed because we had to clean the place up the best we could…. only to find out again, that they were also locals, trashed the house again and some stripper left her shoes literally stuck in the hardwood floors… even though Airbnb stepped up and covered all the damage for me, id say it was a necessary learning experience in stress management. Afterall, its just a house. Let the small things go and get those high ratings, then start to tighten things up a bit. Years later, i have none of these problems and maintain 5.0 superhost on airbnb… I would suggest taking a breath, and maybe going to Albuquerque to get to know the neighbors if needs be. If they have your back, and you have the place insured with airbnb and privately id assume, then id say pick your battles, kiss some *** even if you’re in the right and try to get through your first quarter then bump the price, restrict locals from instant booking or at all, place a higher deposit on bookings, have a 2 night min and just realize its temporary. When you’re building up rapport you HAVE to eat some sh*t, everyone does. Make incremental changes according to shape a traveling demo that fits your style of hosting and it’ll happen. Or make the home unique enough to attract them even sooner, and i dont mean sill neon pillow shams. If your familiar with adhesion contracts you can use them to your advantage. Check with airbnb first to make sure its stated correctly within the regs of their own policies. It’s basically a posted notice, like a no parking/towing zone sign… enter here but by doing so you are agreeing to the following rules and subsequent consequences… write one up and post it more explicitly in the profile description so its the first or second thing someone see… i might think on it though because that can be a huge turn off, even if someone likes the listing and wasn’t planning on breaking the rules anyway… if your guests seem to be having all these extra people arrive, it sounds to me like your getting more local listings than out of state, or maybe these things just aren’t listed under your house rules? anyhow, i feel your pain Greg! I see that bullet hole now and it just makes me laugh
@Eric Bilderback here is some more context... The max occupancy is 7, however, the guest made the reservation request for 4. After she accepted my terms (about no visitors), she messaged and asked to change the reservation to 8 guests, which exceeds my max occupancy. I am a reasonable person and want to accommodate, so I told her that I would accept but that the no visitor rule is firm, no negotiation - in which she agreed again.
Come night 2, we have the 8 people as identified in the reservation, then another 4 show up. They are drinking, being loud, taking shots, etc. I have fairly good audio on my outdoor cams so I have a pretty good idea of what's going on, especially when they are being loud/ partying. Further, one of the visitors walked out of my front door and hangs a right out of camera view (about 1:00am), and about 30 seconds later he comes back and is zipping up his pants. I'm pretty sure he was taking a piss in my front yard.
I messaged the guest via the app and no response. I assumed the guests left then, but I didn't take too close of a look as it was late for me. It was actually the guy going out in the front yard to take a piss.
Trust me, if it was just uncle bubba and aunt ruth hanging out for a few hours in the day, I wouldn't have minded.
We truly do want our guests to have a good time and enjoy themselves. Me and my wife want to provide an amazing experience for them, which we strive to do. What I don't want is them causing problems with my neighbors - which will create unneeded drama for me and jeopardize my STR.
Just a thought… because it sounds like you might be managing it yourself and more like a condo, where less people, same day turnovers and higher occupancy is easier to achieve.. Not sure of the nightly where you are versus your overhead but think about the various suggestions folks have added maybe a bump in the nightly rate and placing 24 hour blocks before and after each guest so enough time is provided for cleaning and thorough walk through. The higher price to make up for the time block before and after. If you’re not already using a 3rd party for market data and pricing try www.usewheelhouse.com or www.beyondpricing.comwww.airdna.co
Investor · Dallas, TX · Member since 2016 · 887 posts · 1k+ votes
4y
Hi @Seth Kristian, this is actually my second STR. We post on both Airbnb and VRBO, but this is the first one out of state. I don't really think that this being out of state has much of an impact on what we're going through. I am dealing with a fair amount of stress - my wife certainly isn't helping in that regard lol.
Thanks much for the detailed post and your experience. That's crazy about the bullet holes!
Developer · Youngstown, OH · Member since 2019 · 129 posts · 121 votes
4y
Make your max occupancy 8 again - the more you sleep, the more you book.
Add "no overnight guests beyond the 8, if rule is broken, penalty is 100.00 per night per guest" - take a $500.00 deposit, and make it a 2 night minimum, no local guests.
Then you need a party clause. No more than 4 guests allowed in the home, and all guests must leave by midnight. Have a noise clause or a chaos clause that allows you to kick them out in the middle of the night if they are throwing a crazy party and disturbing the neighbors.
OR... you could rent out each room separately. Put exterior locks on the bedroom doors. Give each bedroom their own bathroom (the 4th bedroom could be reserved for a family with kids and they share a bathroom). Make the living room and kitchen common areas
If you do this, the chances of there being any guests are slim to none. In fact, you can have an absolutely no guest policy. And it would mean each reservation is a max of 2 ppl per room and they are paying for the rooms individually, and they have to share with other guests who are not going to put up with parties. You're basically a hotel, not a rental property.