Airbnb's no-camera policy
Investor · Detroit, MI · Member since 2014 · 360 posts · 354 votes
Airbnb's no-camera policy
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Matthew CrivelliBusiness Member
Lender · MA · Member since 2021 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votesI would never rent an Air B&B with interior cameras. That is a major privacy concern, I 100% understand why the company is shying away from the practice. How does Air B&B know you didn't install a camera in the rest room? If they OK the use of interior cameras they open themselves up to lawsuits/ litigation. I'm sure that's exactly what happened and why they changed the rules.
Freedom Capital Funding, LLC523 Reviews
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- Member since 2018 · 433 posts · 208 votes2y
I love the extensive explanation of how they’re doctors or medical students to… try to make it not be a boarding house?
You’re right cleaning it up for them will not teach them a lesson. And you know who doesn’t care to teach lessons to their guests? Hotels…
The fact that there’s a code to get in the front door is the main distinguishing factor in my opinion. The minute a guest needs a key or code to get in there is an expectation of privacy. I do repair work at hotels. I’ve never once needed a code to enter. One time a cleaning lady asked me what I was there for because she knew there were no guests on that floor, but otherwise no one has ever asked me who I am or why I’m there. Zero expectation of privacy there.
I'm actually concerned about the part wheee you took pictures of sleeping people and confronted your guests later. It sounds like you had trespassers and should have called the police. Who did you take the pictures for? I'm just not understanding this at all. This may be the wildest STR I've ever heard of. Your guests appear to have the ability to run a brothel with or without your cameras up and running.
- 2yMatthew CrivelliBusiness MemberLender · MA · Member since 2021 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votesI'm not arguing if cameras are better or worse or trying to nail down a specific applications of where the use makes sense. All I'm saying is if the rental agency allows the use of indoor cameras, they open themselves up to a lawsuit. That's the main point. If they tell people to only put cameras in specific areas and the property owner gets caught breaking the rules the renter can make a case that Air B&B has some liability in the matter due to "lax indoor camera policies" or "not enough oversight". With a no indoor camera policy Air B&B can now say, "hey, our policy is no cameras" that way liability falls completely on the home owner. To me it makes sense from Air B&B's stand point.
Quote from @Colleen F.:
@Matthew Crivelli How does airbnb know anyone isn't installing bathroom cams, they don't. That is especially true of people who don't own up to cameras. I think it is more honest in this situation to say when renting rooms as units with use of common areas that you do have cameras. Rental of a private home is different. I also have a family member in a group home there are cameras in common areas to protect the residents. Makes me feel better. For this application I am not sure I am opposed. I had a son in some boarding type places and the crowd can be rough, not sure if cameras would have been better or worse but security is important. They certainly could have used cameras on the mail.
We do have an "interior" camera on one rental. It covers the basement and entry door. Because of the way the place is set up it makes the most sense to mount inside. Now we aren't listing on airbnb but I don't consider it an invasion to cover two entry doors. I did have to explain to the room renter what you see is pretty much what exterior entry cameras would show. I wouldn't do kitchens and hall entry areas there though.
Freedom Capital Funding, LLC523 Reviews - 2yColleen F.Pro MemberInvestor · Narragansett, RI · Member since 2013 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
@Christian Hutchinson does sound like a typical boarding house probably with a little less drinking and fights. For the extra people can you give codes out per person and whoever's code was used at the main entry is fined. Sounds like that might be your biggest problem. You can also use the entry camera to monitor this. If you have people breaking into other peoples rooms that is a police report and look at who you accept. I do understand why you would want cameras.
@Matthew Crivelli I get your point now, not the way I read it at first.
- Rental Property Investor · Phoenix, AZ and Rehoboth Beach DE · Member since 2019 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes2y
I like Colleen F's suggestion to program the front door to accept the same codes as the individual rooms. So John's code will work on the front door and his room. Mary's code will work on the front door and her room. That way you can look at the log of the front door lock, look at the time stamp on your exterior camera, and figure out who gave their code to the stranger on the couch. Of course when someone moves out, their code will have to be deleted from both doors. You certainly don't want one general code for the front door that works forever, that's not secure.
As far as the rooming house model, it's a thing and is becoming more common. Padsplit, HomeRoom, and others operate this way, with no live-in manager. Adults are expected to behave themselves. Padsplit even turns your living room into a couple of bedrooms for more rental income.
- Member since 2018 · 433 posts · 208 votes2y
Quote from @Lauren Kormylo:
I like Colleen F's suggestion to program the front door to accept the same codes as the individual rooms. So John's code will work on the front door and his room. Mary's code will work on the front door and her room. That way you can look at the log of the front door lock, look at the time stamp on your exterior camera, and figure out who gave their code to the stranger on the couch. Of course when someone moves out, their code will have to be deleted from both doors. You certainly don't want one general code for the front door that works forever, that's not secure.
As far as the rooming house model, it's a thing and is becoming more common. Padsplit, HomeRoom, and others operate this way, with no live-in manager. Adults are expected to behave themselves. Padsplit even turns your living room into a couple of bedrooms for more rental income.
College students meet your definition of adults? Lol
- Rental Property Investor · Phoenix, AZ and Rehoboth Beach DE · Member since 2019 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes2y
Quote from @Shane H.:
Quote from @Lauren Kormylo:
I like Colleen F's suggestion to program the front door to accept the same codes as the individual rooms. So John's code will work on the front door and his room. Mary's code will work on the front door and her room. That way you can look at the log of the front door lock, look at the time stamp on your exterior camera, and figure out who gave their code to the stranger on the couch. Of course when someone moves out, their code will have to be deleted from both doors. You certainly don't want one general code for the front door that works forever, that's not secure.
As far as the rooming house model, it's a thing and is becoming more common. Padsplit, HomeRoom, and others operate this way, with no live-in manager. Adults are expected to behave themselves. Padsplit even turns your living room into a couple of bedrooms for more rental income.
College students meet your definition of adults? Lol
Well, since the OP says they are doctors, which means they're at least in their mid-20's, yes.
- Member since 2023 · 114 posts · 36 votes2y
Great discussion. I own an Airbnb and installed cameras all outside. I also don't have cameras in the backyard since it is also considered as a private space.
I also have a camera in the garage, I think I need to remove this one.
Though Airbnb is not my favorite hosting site, I understand why they introduced this rule.
- Member since 2018 · 433 posts · 208 votes2y
Quote from @Lauren Kormylo:
Quote from @Shane H.:
Quote from @Lauren Kormylo:
I like Colleen F's suggestion to program the front door to accept the same codes as the individual rooms. So John's code will work on the front door and his room. Mary's code will work on the front door and her room. That way you can look at the log of the front door lock, look at the time stamp on your exterior camera, and figure out who gave their code to the stranger on the couch. Of course when someone moves out, their code will have to be deleted from both doors. You certainly don't want one general code for the front door that works forever, that's not secure.
As far as the rooming house model, it's a thing and is becoming more common. Padsplit, HomeRoom, and others operate this way, with no live-in manager. Adults are expected to behave themselves. Padsplit even turns your living room into a couple of bedrooms for more rental income.
College students meet your definition of adults? Lol
Well, since the OP says they are doctors, which means they're at least in their mid-20's, yes.
That was meant to be funny but… I think he said they’re doctors or medical students. There is no scenario where I would expect college students to act like adults. Ever been to spring break? Even if they’re future doctor college students.
At the end of the day this post is about cameras inside of a private space. I’m glad air bnb clarified this policy for the better. As an investor I would do my best not to build a model that requires spying on my guests inside of a home.
If I ran a boarding house or hotel as the op has tried to sell it, the place would be staffed. The op would like to be able to control this building like a private home while spying on the guests remotely. I’m surprised no one else picked up on the pictures the op took of people sleeping on the couch before they had cameras installed. I am willing to bet this is a violation of air bnb s old policy, probably of any other listing platforms they’re using, and potentially of the law. Imagine you were invited into someone’s apartment, you stay the night and the landlord comes in to take pictures of you while you sleep on the couch. - Rental Property Investor · Phoenix, AZ and Rehoboth Beach DE · Member since 2019 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes2y
Quote from @Shane H.:
That was meant to be funny but… I think he said they’re doctors or medical students. There is no scenario where I would expect college students to act like adults. Ever been to spring break? Even if they’re future doctor college students.
At the end of the day this post is about cameras inside of a private space. I’m glad air bnb clarified this policy for the better. As an investor I would do my best not to build a model that requires spying on my guests inside of a home.
If I ran a boarding house or hotel as the op has tried to sell it, the place would be staffed. The op would like to be able to control this building like a private home while spying on the guests remotely. I’m surprised no one else picked up on the pictures the op took of people sleeping on the couch before they had cameras installed. I am willing to bet this is a violation of air bnb s old policy, probably of any other listing platforms they’re using, and potentially of the law. Imagine you were invited into someone’s apartment, you stay the night and the landlord comes in to take pictures of you while you sleep on the couch.I know you meant it as a joke, but these people are not ordinary immature "college students" age 17-22. These people have already graduated from a 4 year university. Then they've gone through at least another 3 years of medical school and are in their 4th year of that. So the youngest guests are age 25, and the oldest guests have gone through 3-7 years of residency so are in their 30's. I certainly expect people this age to have some maturity and not act like they're in a frat house.
Co-living rules and rights are not the same as renting an apartment with your buddies where you're all on the lease together. These guests are not allowed to invite someone to stay overnight. There is no expectation of privacy on the couch. It was not in violation of Airbnb's old policy, which covered bedrooms and bathrooms as long as indoor cameras in other areas were disclosed. It is not in violation of other laws to have a camera in the living room as long as it's disclosed. If the OP wants to stop using Airbnb, he can keep the cameras as is.
- Member since 2018 · 433 posts · 208 votes2y
Quote from @Lauren Kormylo:
Quote from @Shane H.:
That was meant to be funny but… I think he said they’re doctors or medical students. There is no scenario where I would expect college students to act like adults. Ever been to spring break? Even if they’re future doctor college students.
At the end of the day this post is about cameras inside of a private space. I’m glad air bnb clarified this policy for the better. As an investor I would do my best not to build a model that requires spying on my guests inside of a home.
If I ran a boarding house or hotel as the op has tried to sell it, the place would be staffed. The op would like to be able to control this building like a private home while spying on the guests remotely. I’m surprised no one else picked up on the pictures the op took of people sleeping on the couch before they had cameras installed. I am willing to bet this is a violation of air bnb s old policy, probably of any other listing platforms they’re using, and potentially of the law. Imagine you were invited into someone’s apartment, you stay the night and the landlord comes in to take pictures of you while you sleep on the couch.I know you meant it as a joke, but these people are not ordinary immature "college students" age 17-22. These people have already graduated from a 4 year university. Then they've gone through at least another 3 years of medical school and are in their 4th year of that. So the youngest guests are age 25, and the oldest guests have gone through 3-7 years of residency so are in their 30's. I certainly expect people this age to have some maturity and not act like they're in a frat house.
Co-living rules and rights are not the same as renting an apartment with your buddies where you're all on the lease together. These guests are not allowed to invite someone to stay overnight. There is no expectation of privacy on the couch. It was not in violation of Airbnb's old policy, which covered bedrooms and bathrooms as long as indoor cameras in other areas were disclosed. It is not in violation of other laws to have a camera in the living room as long as it's disclosed. If the OP wants to stop using Airbnb, he can keep the cameras as is.
This camera was not disclosed from how I read the comment. They came in, found them, and took pictures, presumably with their phone. Does the listing say, “if I catch you sleeping anywhere besides the bed I’ll snap pictures?”
The guest has no idea that those people are not allowed to invite them. This just seems like a totally inappropriate way to handle it to me whether a violation of the law or not. I’m still not sure it isn’t. Generally you can’t stop someone from taking your picture on the street because it’s a public place. I don’t know that the same can be said inside of a house, even if you are unknowingly trespassing. (I’m not positive if it’s trespassing either if they were invited. I’ve never run a boarding house, so I’m not super familiar with how state and/or federal laws would treat that. Certainly I think they were not trespassing before being asked to leave, which it sounds like the op did not bother to do. So I’m fairly confident they were not trespassers.
- 2yColleen F.Pro MemberInvestor · Narragansett, RI · Member since 2013 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
@Shane H. I would argue that just because they "may " be ignorant of the rules doesn't mean they are not trespassers. Because you didn't know it was a law or policy doesn't make you not responsible. And believe me they likely knew. It was a boarding house with locks on all the bedroom doors. Think about it, if you found someone lounging out in the locked front foyer of your multiplex are they trespassing?
- Member since 2018 · 433 posts · 208 votes2y
Quote from @Colleen F.:
@Shane H. I would argue that just because they "may " be ignorant of the rules doesn't mean they are not trespassers. Because you didn't know it was a law or policy doesn't make you not responsible. And believe me they likely knew. It was a boarding house with locks on all the bedroom doors. Think about it, if you found someone lounging out in the locked front foyer of your multiplex are they trespassing?
I don’t think “ignorance of the law is no excuse,” applies when it’s not a law and especially when it’s not a common rule…
I’ve never stayed at a boarding house. I would never imagine that when someone is renting a place that they couldn’t invite me over. I’m not even sure if it’s legal. It’s probably legal to prevent them from having a guest in a common area. I seriously doubt it’s legal to ban them from the room they’re renting. That doesn’t seem like quiet enjoyment to me. Usually guest tenant guest laws limit (the limits) to something like a certain number of days in a month. You cannot as a landlord prevent a tenant from having people over unless they cross some line usually outlined in the states law.
I would have to see where the limit is on str. There must be some sort of protections still. I’m unfamiliar with them but these aren’t exactly short term, from what I saw these are tenants. With tenants rights. Then it comes to when are you allowed to take pictures of people on private property. A whole other set of laws. It’s silly to think either of us KNOW whether the op was legally allowed to photograph people sleeping on the couch. Lawyers go to court and argue both sides of whether a person had a reasonable right to privacy in a given scenario. Judges rule on it, other judges overturn those decisions. There’s a potential that the op illegally photographed individuals. There’s potential that state laws prevent the rules the op claims to be enforcing. If they were documenting a crime they may be protected even if it were not otherwise legal to photograph them on private property. Considering they don’t appear to have used it to call the police I’m not sure that would fly. But until that person filed a complaint against the op and the courts have their say we shall never know. I wouldn’t want to be the op if they did so…
- Member since 2018 · 433 posts · 208 votes2y
Quote from @Colleen F.:
@Shane H. I would argue that just because they "may " be ignorant of the rules doesn't mean they are not trespassers. Because you didn't know it was a law or policy doesn't make you not responsible. And believe me they likely knew. It was a boarding house with locks on all the bedroom doors. Think about it, if you found someone lounging out in the locked front foyer of your multiplex are they trespassing?
I’m response to your question. Does my multiplex foyer have a couch and television? Are they watching television or appear to have fallen asleep while doing so? I’d probably ask who invited them. If they’re asleep looking like they fell asleep watching the television I would wake them up and ask. If they had a bedroll on the floor I would probably call the police.
- 2yColleen F.Pro MemberInvestor · Narragansett, RI · Member since 2013 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
@Shane H. In boarding houses you will find no guests IS a common rule as specified in the lease it does not conflict with Quiet enjoyment (look it up). For this situation you would have handled differently your option but the reality is you can be held accountable as a guest even if you are ignorant, nothing to do with law. I have rented out rooms and if there was someone on the couch you bet they are being kicked out if I didn't permit it. You can call the cops for trespass, I haven't but would.
Since common areas are accessible to people beyond the control of the individual tenant several jurisdictions have found that with other tenants having access there is no reasonable expectation of privacy in these areas. The only exception I found is a court case in NJ that related to suppression of a gun search and did say tenants in a boarding house had an expectation of privacy as regards to common areas and that search. However there isn't much about cameras in these type of setups. Yes it is evolving and I wasn't exhaustive but my point was the OP has a different setup than an apartment or STR. I think you aren't thinking about it that way. Enough said.
- Member since 2018 · 433 posts · 208 votes2y
When you say the guest can be held accountable if they didn’t know “nothing to do with law.” What do you mean by accountable? Like you can ask them to leave? Lol clearly if they’re not breaking the law there’s not much more you can do.
the op is under the 6th circuit who has ruled that common areas do offer a reasonable expectation of privacy so that argument is out.It appears to be law in every state, according to a few online sources, that the landlord must inform a tenant of all cameras on a property including common areas. “Secret recording” does not appear legal anywhere in the us after all my seconds of research on the topic.
The law is super murky on the topic. As much as you want your version to be crystal clear it’s not.
The guests thing I can’t find a single source that says a landlord can prohibit guests in their entirety. Every source seems to place some sort of limitation on what guest restrictions a landlord can place…
- 2yJustin BrickmanBusiness MemberRealtor · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2021 · 502 posts · 274 votes
As long as we can keep exterior cameras. Interior cameras are a breach of privacy, I'm not sure how any guests would be okay with that.
Justin Brickman Realty4.9144 Reviews - 2ySarah KensingerPro MemberReal Estate Consultant · OH · Member since 2023 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
This is a major hang up in renting by room when the property is not meant to be rented out that way. I would never rent a STR this way or host by the room. It's a huge safety issue filled with liabilities left and right. It's no wonder we have such issues and people being taken advantage of, when we're practically asking for it!
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