Airbnb's no-camera policy
Investor · Detroit, MI · Member since 2014 · 360 posts · 354 votes
Airbnb's no-camera policy
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Matthew CrivelliBusiness Member
Lender · MA · Member since 2021 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votesI would never rent an Air B&B with interior cameras. That is a major privacy concern, I 100% understand why the company is shying away from the practice. How does Air B&B know you didn't install a camera in the rest room? If they OK the use of interior cameras they open themselves up to lawsuits/ litigation. I'm sure that's exactly what happened and why they changed the rules.
Freedom Capital Funding, LLC523 Reviews
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- 2yMatthew CrivelliBusiness MemberLender · MA · Member since 2021 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
I would never rent an Air B&B with interior cameras. That is a major privacy concern, I 100% understand why the company is shying away from the practice. How does Air B&B know you didn't install a camera in the rest room? If they OK the use of interior cameras they open themselves up to lawsuits/ litigation. I'm sure that's exactly what happened and why they changed the rules.
Freedom Capital Funding, LLC523 Reviews - Investor · Detroit, MI · Member since 2014 · 360 posts · 354 votes2y
So you wouldn't stay in a hotel with a camera in the hallway? stairway?, or elevator lobby?
This isn't renting a whole house/unit.
Imagine its 6 rooms in a building. Having cameras in the hallways these rooms go to is a problem? or the shared kitchen.
Someone steals someone's food, or cooks a meal leaving the area dirty? how do we assign responsibility?
- Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes2y
In a hotel, you cant have cameras in the rooms. Anywhere privacy is expected, which is anywhere within the space being rented, and in a house that includes the common areas, you cant have cameras.
What are you going to do when someone walks from the bathroom to the bedroom naked. Now youve recorded someone in the nude. What if its a child? Now youre going to prison for 20 years and registering as a sex offender because you inadvertently created child pornography.
District Invest Group546 Reviews - Investor · Detroit, MI · Member since 2014 · 360 posts · 354 votes2y
Quote from @Russell Brazil:
In a hotel, you cant have cameras in the rooms. Anywhere privacy is expected, which is anywhere within the space being rented, and in a house that includes the common areas, you cant have cameras.
What are you going to do when someone walks from the bathroom to the bedroom naked. Now youve recorded someone in the nude. What if its a child? Now youre going to prison for 20 years and registering as a sex offender because you inadvertently created child pornography.
I have a clothing policy because its mixed-gendered housing.
There are shared hallways and stairways. And people are not renting the whole building.
- 2yMatthew CrivelliBusiness MemberLender · MA · Member since 2021 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votesDoes each room have an individual bathroom?
Quote from @Christian Hutchinson:
So you wouldn't stay in a hotel with a camera in the hallway? stairway?, or elevator lobby?
This isn't renting a whole house/unit.
Imagine its 6 rooms in a building. Having cameras in the hallways these rooms go to is a problem? or the shared kitchen.
Someone steals someone's food, or cooks a meal leaving the area dirty? how do we assign responsibility?
Freedom Capital Funding, LLC523 Reviews - Investor · Detroit, MI · Member since 2014 · 360 posts · 354 votes2y
Quote from @Matthew Crivelli:
Does each room have an individual bathroom?Quote from @Christian Hutchinson:
So you wouldn't stay in a hotel with a camera in the hallway? stairway?, or elevator lobby?
This isn't renting a whole house/unit.
Imagine its 6 rooms in a building. Having cameras in the hallways these rooms go to is a problem? or the shared kitchen.
Someone steals someone's food, or cooks a meal leaving the area dirty? how do we assign responsibility?
one room does, the other 5 rooms share 2.5 bathrooms. the cameras have no views of the bathroom doors.
Like I said, kitchen, stairway, entryway and common hallway.
- Rental Property Investor · south carolina and michigan · Member since 2023 · 348 posts · 226 votes2y
Quote from @Christian Hutchinson:
So you wouldn't stay in a hotel with a camera in the hallway? stairway?, or elevator lobby?
This isn't renting a whole house/unit.
Imagine its 6 rooms in a building. Having cameras in the hallways these rooms go to is a problem? or the shared kitchen.
Someone steals someone's food, or cooks a meal leaving the area dirty? how do we assign responsibility?
This thread is more confirmation for me why I will never invest in this type of unit/building etc. no thanks, dont need it. I have better things to do than to have to worry about tenants stealing food etc, more power to ya but 100% not for me.
I also would never stay somewhere there is interior cameras, some things should just remain private, for no other reason than that. I do sympathize but nope, not for me.
we have a camera at each of our STR's, they are outside on the entry level so we know if our house is getting trespassed and/or if our elevator is getting abused, even that was a toss up for us but it is only that area and i barely can stand having it.
- 2yBruce WoodruffPro MemberContractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
This is an AirBnB thing not a legal thing.....What about VRBO, what is their policy?
You may have to decide between cameras and using ABnB.....
And having a clothing policy is not good enough....we know that most people, let alone kids, will not read the fine print or follow rules anyway. All it takes is one kid running around naked and you capture the image on your cameras...Like @Russell Brazil said, that would be BIG trouble.
- Atlanta · Member since 2022 · 707 posts · 634 votes2y
Quote from @Christian Hutchinson:
Quote from @Russell Brazil:
In a hotel, you cant have cameras in the rooms. Anywhere privacy is expected, which is anywhere within the space being rented, and in a house that includes the common areas, you cant have cameras.
What are you going to do when someone walks from the bathroom to the bedroom naked. Now youve recorded someone in the nude. What if its a child? Now youre going to prison for 20 years and registering as a sex offender because you inadvertently created child pornography.
I have a clothing policy because its mixed-gendered housing.
There are shared hallways and stairways. And people are not renting the whole building.
i would debate that a shared common space is a public space. i would not consider anything inside a house a public space. the lobby in a hotel, anyone can walk in there whether they are staying there or not.
- Member since 2022 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes2y
Quote from @Christian Hutchinson:
This would be like telling a hotel you can't have interior cameras in their hallways to to their individual rooms.
Horrible comparison. I don’t prance down a hotel hallway in my underwear, but I do expect to be able to do that in a kitchen of a house I rent. A kitchen or interior hallway inside a home is still a private space where I expect exclusive and private control over, whereas a hotel hallway is a shared space where privacy is not expected.
While I’m not a fan of a lot of their policies and priorities, I don’t think AirBnb is out of line with this one.
- Investor · Detroit, MI · Member since 2014 · 360 posts · 354 votes2y
Quote from @Jon Martin:
Quote from @Christian Hutchinson:
This would be like telling a hotel you can't have interior cameras in their hallways to to their individual rooms.
Horrible comparison. I don’t prance down a hotel hallway in my underwear, but I do expect to be able to do that in a kitchen of a house I rent. A kitchen or interior hallway inside a home is still a private space where I expect exclusive and private control over, whereas a hotel hallway is a shared space where privacy is not expected.
While I’m not a fan of a lot of their policies and priorities, I don’t think AirBnb is out of line with this one.
The KITCHEN is shared with other guests. You are not in a house by yourself. There are other people renting rooms. Walk into a house. Think like a ski lodge...its a 6000 sq ft home. The living room with the TV (no camera). The kitchen (camera). The hallway that accesses private bedrooms, bathrooms (camera), stairway (camera), entry door - exterior (camera). Bathrooms, bedrooms are not being monitored. Think of walking through a Hampton Inn. There are doors on each side of you...That Hallway has a camera. The ice machine/vending machine lobby has a camera, the 2nd,3rd,4th floor elevator lobby has a camera.
- Rental Property Investor · south carolina and michigan · Member since 2023 · 348 posts · 226 votes2y
Quote from @Christian Hutchinson:
Quote from @Jon Martin:
Quote from @Christian Hutchinson:
This would be like telling a hotel you can't have interior cameras in their hallways to to their individual rooms.
Horrible comparison. I don’t prance down a hotel hallway in my underwear, but I do expect to be able to do that in a kitchen of a house I rent. A kitchen or interior hallway inside a home is still a private space where I expect exclusive and private control over, whereas a hotel hallway is a shared space where privacy is not expected.
While I’m not a fan of a lot of their policies and priorities, I don’t think AirBnb is out of line with this one.
The KITCHEN is shared with other guests. You are not in a house by yourself. There are other people renting rooms. Walk into a house. Think like a ski lodge...its a 6000 sq ft home. The living room with the TV (no camera). The kitchen (camera). The hallway that accesses private bedrooms, bathrooms (camera), stairway (camera), entry door - exterior (camera). Bathrooms, bedrooms are not being monitored. Think of walking through a Hampton Inn. There are doors on each side of you...That Hallway has a camera. The ice machine/vending machine lobby has a camera, the 2nd,3rd,4th floor elevator lobby has a camera.
Don't want to pile on but in my opinion Airbnb was born out of an alternative for hotels so I don't think that would be a great argument for keeping cameras where you are stating. I am tracking but think the very thing you are referring to is why Airbnb came into existence- to not be like hotels.
The longer Airbnb is around the more items will be identified like this to "carve out" so they dont align.
- 2ySam YinPro MemberLos Angeles, CA · Member since 2021 · 583 posts · 738 votes
@Christian Hutchinson
I think a different angle to look at this is that the entire thing is a business. Like any business, if the partners do not fit how you want your business to operate, then you need to cut them out. If you cannot survive without a certain partner and they have greater control over your business, then you need to adapt and conform to your partners demands.
In this case, either eliminate ABNB from your operation, or abide by requirements.
I think it's just easier that way and it eliminates all the stress from the vision of your business.
- 2yMichael BaumPro MemberOlympia, WA · Member since 2016 · 8k+ posts · 7k+ votes
Hey @Christian Hutchinson, so have you had big problems with people stealing things or breaking into other rooms? Has there been a lot of damage to the house by guests?
If this a real problem, you need to change the way you vet your guests or get out of the this investing space all together.
Change the place over to a long term rental.
- 2yDon KonipolBusiness MemberInvestor · The Woodlands TX / Avon, CT · Member since 2009 · 6k+ posts · 10k+ votes
Quote from @Christian Hutchinson:
Hello,
I have a property I rent rooms out to individuals. I literally had cameras installed last week. AirBnB is one of the platforms I use. I installed them in the common hallway, the entry door, kitchen, and a common hallway where there are multiple rooms.
How does Airbnb expect people to monitor their properties. People may attempt to break-in to others rooms. There are things such as damages to common areas, theft, unauthorized guests, etc. The cameras are not in bathrooms or bedrooms. Literally Hallways and a kitchen.
This would be like telling a hotel you can't have interior cameras in their hallways to to their individual rooms.
Some of our posters are misunderstanding the meaning of PUBLIC space. If a house is rented to 5 people, and all have access to say the kitchen, that makes the kitchen a COMMON space, not a PUBLIC space. A PUBLIC space is a place that can be legally accessed by non residents, hence the general public. Hope this clarifies some issues.
As a property owner / manger you do want to know who may be acting irresponsibly, violating rules, or who damaged property. However, privacy concerns triumph and the fact that you have multiple independent parties sharing rented space does not mean the tenants have relinquished their privacy rights.
Airbnb operates in the interest of Airbnb which may or may NOT coincide with the interests of the property owners / managers utilizing the platform. I’ve had numerous issues with Airbnb first as a property owner/provider and later as a tenant. However, all problems were eventually resolved SOMEWHAT (at least)satisfactory. But, I can imagine that many long term players are totally frustrated. Guess you have to do a “cost - benefit” analysis to see if it’s worth it.
Btw, this isn’t too different than what goes on in most franchise situations. For example, take a fat food franchise. The franchisor is incentive is too place as many locations as possible in an area to maximize royalty income and franchise fee income, up to the point that the franchisees are no longer profitable, The franchisee on the other hand wants as few other franchisees in his area as possible since he has almost no concern about the franchisor maximizing their income, he wants to maximize HIS OWN net income and franchise value.Here’s something to consider. In any of these situations, as control of the parent company passes from the entrepreneurs who founded the company, to the “professional” managers who will run it, the deal will become worse for businesses relying on the parent company for their survival, with each successive management team taking a further larger bite out of the profits.
- Investor · bucks County PA · Member since 2020 · 29 posts · 17 votes2y
Can you have outdoor cameras to see who enters/exits the premises.
- 2yAndrew SteffensBusiness MemberTampa, FL · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
I believe Airbnb's policy said hotel's were exempt. I know you are not a hotel, but in a sense you are. I would reach out to Airbnb for guidance as to whether you would be exempt or not.
Vacation Rentals of Florida53 Reviews - Rental Property Investor · Phoenix, AZ and Rehoboth Beach DE · Member since 2019 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes2y
I sympathize with you, especially since you just spent all that money putting the cameras in. But you'll have to abide by their rules now, another reason why hosts are moving towards more direct bookings. You'll now have to do more vetting of guests if theft has been a problem in the past. Do you have smart locks on the bedroom doors, so the code is changed for each guest? That's probably all you can do now. With exterior cameras, you can still catch unauthorized guests. Research reviews about Padsplit and similar sites, they have the same set up. See how they handle guests leaving a mess or stealing food etc.
- 2yColleen F.Pro MemberInvestor · Narragansett, RI · Member since 2013 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
@Matthew Crivelli How does airbnb know anyone isn't installing bathroom cams, they don't. That is especially true of people who don't own up to cameras. I think it is more honest in this situation to say when renting rooms as units with use of common areas that you do have cameras. Rental of a private home is different. I also have a family member in a group home there are cameras in common areas to protect the residents. Makes me feel better. For this application I am not sure I am opposed. I had a son in some boarding type places and the crowd can be rough, not sure if cameras would have been better or worse but security is important. They certainly could have used cameras on the mail.
We do have an "interior" camera on one rental. It covers the basement and entry door. Because of the way the place is set up it makes the most sense to mount inside. Now we aren't listing on airbnb but I don't consider it an invasion to cover two entry doors. I did have to explain to the room renter what you see is pretty much what exterior entry cameras would show. I wouldn't do kitchens and hall entry areas there though.
- Rock Star Extraordinaire · Northeast, TN · Member since 2015 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes2y
I think @Don Konipol is right on the money here. Kitchens and hallways inside private homes are not public areas. Just because they are shared spaces doesn't mean the guests have no right nor expectation of privacy.
For example - you have a 6000 sf 6 bedroom house, it appears. Like a ski lodge. Let's say, for example, that 6 friends decide to rent your entire house. Have they surrendered their right to privacy in the house?
Your example of the ice machine or other hallway areas in hotels doesn't hold water, because unless the hotel vets every single person that enters that establishment they have no way of knowing whether the person is a guest or a bum or a robber. I assume your home has no way for anyone to enter those spaces without having first obtained some kind of key or code to the property, thus there is an expectation that everyone on the premises is a paying guest or the guest of a paying guest.
Frankly, I can't even believe anyone would want to rent such a setup without the owner being on premises and monitoring the behavior of the other guests. It appears to me you're attempting to do so via camera. I think irrespective of the cameras you better have some really good insurance, because you are setting yourself up for a serious lawsuit down the road. Let's say one of your guests break into one of the other rooms and steals something, or rapes or murders another guest. The guest claims the lock on the door wasn't secure enough or that they yelled for help but no one came out. Guaranteed you and your insurance company are going to be on the receiving end of that lawsuit. You're essentially running a rooming house without any on-site controls or monitoring.
Skyline Properties - Member since 2022 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes2y
On top of all that, I wouldn't want to sit around rewinding video to try and Perry Mason who the Hamburglar was, and then have to mediate petty disputes between strangers from afar. I avoid checking the cameras at all unless there is a specific security or guest concern that warrants it. I almost exclusively use the smart lock logs if I need to confirm occupancy/vacancy.
- Member since 2018 · 433 posts · 208 votes2y
Quote from @Christian Hutchinson:
So you wouldn't stay in a hotel with a camera in the hallway? stairway?, or elevator lobby?
This isn't renting a whole house/unit.
Imagine its 6 rooms in a building. Having cameras in the hallways these rooms go to is a problem? or the shared kitchen.
Someone steals someone's food, or cooks a meal leaving the area dirty? how do we assign responsibility?
How exactly are you “assigning responsibility” for someone not cleaning up after themselves in the kitchen? What qualifies? Like if I make toast, and leave some crumbs on the counter, what will you do? Do I have to clean the toaster? Take the bottom off and dump the crumbs into the garbage? Or just hand swipe crumbs from the counter onto the floor? I’m being slightly dramatic but it’s a real question. At a hotel I can do any of those, the cleaning people will take care of whatever I didn’t. I can drop jelly on the counter, sprinkle crumbs around, and leave my plate at the table. No one will ever try to “assign responsibility.” They will simply shake their head and clean it up.
- Investor · Detroit, MI · Member since 2014 · 360 posts · 354 votes2y
Without getting into my business model...
I rent housing to medical doctors in Metro Detroit on Training. Everyone in the house is a doctor, medical student, resident. Someone could be a 4th Year Medical Student from Seattle doing a 4 week ENT Rotation. Someone could be from Saudia Arabia here for 3 month 'fellowship' in Cardic Intervention Techniques. Someone could be here from Nepal who is a doctor in their home country but wishes to complete residency in the USA, and is completing a Step 1 or Step 2 exam.
Point is people will do things such as take people's laptops or backpacks. Or they have money to pay for their housing stay, but then they meet someone from their home country less fortunate and then they allow them to stay with them, or 'crash' on the couch. Two guests will be Argentina and they will celebrate a big win in the World Cup and leave the kitchen trashed for 2-3 days, or more. You don't know who created the mess. If we clean it up, it encourages them to be irresponsible, if we 'fine' everyone in the house it creates a problem.
A guest might be headed to Boston for their next training rotation and the other returning to South Sudan, and they see the trunk where we keep extra pillows, blankets, etc. They decide to help themselves to these blankets. Well, 2 people left on the same day. Their Flight was at 6AM and 3AM. When I show up at 10AM I just see everything is gone. How do I know who stole?
These people are vetted, they are referred through the hospitals they are providing training. This isn't a 'typical' boarding house. But as you see we still have certain challenges because people are people.
We tried to not have cameras, but the breaking point was I showed up one-time on a Saturday morning at 5AM and found two people sleeping on the couch. Okay maybe they were hanging out and stayed the night. That would just constitute a warning. But instead, everyone in the house said they didn't know who the people were or denied there was someone in the living room sleeping (I took a pictures). Once that happened I realized that people were openly blatantly breaking the rules and there would be potentially more issues.
Every door has electronic locks with a personalized door code only the guest has (I have a key and a owner code). The front door to enter the house has a code. But I caught a non-guest enter the house one-time with the code. I was there cleaning the person opened the door and I was standing right there. Again, upon questioning no one could say who this person was.
- 2yNicholas L.Pro MemberFlipper/Rehabber · Pittsburgh · Member since 2018 · 6k+ posts · 5k+ votes
setting aside the camera issue completely - do you rely on Airbnb for 100% of your bookings? could you shift to a different platform and/or to direct?
i don't invest in STRs but i follow out of curiosity and i know this is a big change for some hosts. but it's just a policy change by one company.
- Rock Star Extraordinaire · Northeast, TN · Member since 2015 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes2y
Quote from @Christian Hutchinson:
Without getting into my business model...
I rent housing to medical doctors in Metro Detroit on Training. Everyone in the house is a doctor, medical student, resident. Someone could be a 4th Year Medical Student from Seattle doing a 4 week ENT Rotation. Someone could be from Saudia Arabia here for 3 month 'fellowship' in Cardic Intervention Techniques. Someone could be here from Nepal who is a doctor in their home country but wishes to complete residency in the USA, and is completing a Step 1 or Step 2 exam.
Point is people will do things such as take people's laptops or backpacks. Or they have money to pay for their housing stay, but then they meet someone from their home country less fortunate and then they allow them to stay with them, or 'crash' on the couch. Two guests will be Argentina and they will celebrate a big win in the World Cup and leave the kitchen trashed for 2-3 days, or more. You don't know who created the mess. If we clean it up, it encourages them to be irresponsible, if we 'fine' everyone in the house it creates a problem.
A guest might be headed to Boston for their next training rotation and the other returning to South Sudan, and they see the trunk where we keep extra pillows, blankets, etc. They decide to help themselves to these blankets. Well, 2 people left on the same day. Their Flight was at 6AM and 3AM. When I show up at 10AM I just see everything is gone. How do I know who stole?
These people are vetted, they are referred through the hospitals they are providing training. This isn't a 'typical' boarding house. But as you see we still have certain challenges because people are people.
We tried to not have cameras, but the breaking point was I showed up one-time on a Saturday morning at 5AM and found two people sleeping on the couch. Okay maybe they were hanging out and stayed the night. That would just constitute a warning. But instead, everyone in the house said they didn't know who the people were or denied there was someone in the living room sleeping (I took a pictures). Once that happened I realized that people were openly blatantly breaking the rules and there would be potentially more issues.
Every door has electronic locks with a personalized door code only the guest has (I have a key and a owner code). The front door to enter the house has a code. But I caught a non-guest enter the house one-time with the code. I was there cleaning the person opened the door and I was standing right there. Again, upon questioning no one could say who this person was.
So what you are doing is running a boarding house, or a dorm if you prefer. Maybe with theoretically higher class tenants, but the same model. The problems you described are the reason that such arrangements have a live-in supervisor/monitor. Can you imagine what the common areas in a college dorm would be like if there wasn't a floor manager?
Personally, I don't think this is a long term successful model in terms of risk management. If all of your tenants are medical students, why do you even need Airbnb? Surely there would be some way to interface directly with the medical schools. How do you limit guests to only people who are becoming doctors when you advertise on Airbnb?
In any case, the bottom line is you will either have to change your model or use another platform, or break their rules and wait to be thrown off the platform.
Skyline Properties
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