Colorado mountain towns cracking down on Airbnb
Real Estate Agent · Colorado | stan.store/JamesCarlson · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
Colorado mountain towns cracking down on Airbnb
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Ryan MoyerBusiness Member
Property Manager · Orlando Kissimmee Davenport Salt Lake City, Park City · Member since 2019 · 991 posts · 1k+ votesOriginally posted by @Josh C.:
I never understood this. Why in tourist areas do you restrict more people coming or larger groups? Not to mention personal property rights and free markets. But that’s another subject. Lol
I live in a ski area so I kind of understand it. Hate it but at least understand where they're coming from.
I don't think the issue is people coming in larger groups, the issue is housing for lower wage workers. These ski areas have insane property values (mine in Utah isn't as bad as those Colorado towns but same idea) so there's no way someone working for $7-15/hr at a ski resort or working restaurant wages or store clerk wages can afford to live there. In the past that meant they would just rent, but now every investor in the area isn't stupid enough to rent their properties as a LTR for $1500/mo when they could list it as an STR and make double/triple that even with a property manager. Originally people could just move a little further out of town but now even those areas are popular for STRs.
So there's nowhere for lifties and store clerks and restaurant staff to live so they go somewhere else. Then the restaurants and ski resorts and whatnot are understaffed and complain. Now the city is stuck choosing whether to side with the STR owners that they did fine without for the last 50 years or the ski resorts/restaurants/shops that actually bring all the tourists into town.
It's why I'll probably never own a ski property, even though I love to ski and could manage them much easier since they'd only be 30 minutes away instead of 2000 miles like the places I do own for STR. I'd rather just make my money somewhere more STR friendly and use those profits to pay for a sweet ski vacation.
I'm sure Colorado isn't very STR friendly in general like said but we have bans and regulations out the wazzoo in the ski areas here in Utah as well, and Utah is about as conservative as it gets. It's just a micro-economy that doesn't work in the current climate with STRs so lucrative.
Cosmic Vacations4.9174 Reviews
41 Replies
- Investor · Lakewood, CO · Member since 2015 · 8 posts · 3 votes4y
In your experience have you found STRs to perform well in towns like Evergreen and Conifer?
- 4yCollin HaysBusiness MemberProperty Manager · Gatlinburg, TN · Member since 2020 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
This is an interesting development but not that unexpected, given the political bent of the state of Colorado. Heavy-handed rules are to be expected, sooner or later, in states with a culture of heavy-handed government. This is why I have removed states such as OR, CA, WA, and CO from future STR consideration.
The CO ski towns have been invaded by liberal elites from CA. Just a fact. If I had to do a STR in CO, I suppose I would go with a more middle income destination such as Cuchara.
Stick with FL, GA, AL, TN, OK, the Carolinas. Texas - depends on the area. It ain’t your father’s Texas.
- 4yJohn UnderwoodPro MemberInvestor · Greer, SC · Member since 2014 · 13k+ posts · 17k+ votes
Sounds like its time to sell and buy in a STR friendly area or areas.
- 4yRyan MoyerBusiness MemberProperty Manager · Orlando Kissimmee Davenport Salt Lake City, Park City · Member since 2019 · 991 posts · 1k+ votes
Originally posted by @Josh C.:
I never understood this. Why in tourist areas do you restrict more people coming or larger groups? Not to mention personal property rights and free markets. But that’s another subject. Lol
I live in a ski area so I kind of understand it. Hate it but at least understand where they're coming from.
I don't think the issue is people coming in larger groups, the issue is housing for lower wage workers. These ski areas have insane property values (mine in Utah isn't as bad as those Colorado towns but same idea) so there's no way someone working for $7-15/hr at a ski resort or working restaurant wages or store clerk wages can afford to live there. In the past that meant they would just rent, but now every investor in the area isn't stupid enough to rent their properties as a LTR for $1500/mo when they could list it as an STR and make double/triple that even with a property manager. Originally people could just move a little further out of town but now even those areas are popular for STRs.
So there's nowhere for lifties and store clerks and restaurant staff to live so they go somewhere else. Then the restaurants and ski resorts and whatnot are understaffed and complain. Now the city is stuck choosing whether to side with the STR owners that they did fine without for the last 50 years or the ski resorts/restaurants/shops that actually bring all the tourists into town.
It's why I'll probably never own a ski property, even though I love to ski and could manage them much easier since they'd only be 30 minutes away instead of 2000 miles like the places I do own for STR. I'd rather just make my money somewhere more STR friendly and use those profits to pay for a sweet ski vacation.
I'm sure Colorado isn't very STR friendly in general like said but we have bans and regulations out the wazzoo in the ski areas here in Utah as well, and Utah is about as conservative as it gets. It's just a micro-economy that doesn't work in the current climate with STRs so lucrative.
Cosmic Vacations4.9174 Reviews - 4yCollin HaysBusiness MemberProperty Manager · Gatlinburg, TN · Member since 2020 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
Originally posted by @Ryan Moyer:
Originally posted by @Josh C.:
I never understood this. Why in tourist areas do you restrict more people coming or larger groups? Not to mention personal property rights and free markets. But that’s another subject. Lol
I live in a ski area so I kind of understand it. Hate it but at least understand where they're coming from.
I don't think the issue is people coming in larger groups, the issue is housing for lower wage workers. These ski areas have insane property values (mine in Utah isn't as bad as those Colorado towns but same idea) so there's no way someone working for $7-15/hr at a ski resort or working restaurant wages or store clerk wages can afford to live there. In the past that meant they would just rent, but now every investor in the area isn't stupid enough to rent their properties as a LTR for $1500/mo when they could list it as an STR and make double/triple that even with a property manager.
So there's nowhere for lifties and store clerks and restaurant staff to live so they go somewhere else. Then the restaurants and ski resorts and whatnot are understaffed and complain. Now the city is stuck choosing whether to side with the STR owners that they did fine without for the last 50 years or the ski resorts/restaurants/shops that actually bring all the tourists into town.
It's why I'll probably never own a ski property, even though I love to ski and could manage them much easier since they'd only be 30 minutes away instead of 2000 miles like the places I do own for STR. I'd rather just make my money somewhere more STR friendly and use those profits to pay for a sweet ski vacation.
Ryan, that's understandable, but that is still the liberal politician way to deal with the issue. Instead of allowing free markets to come up with a solution to the problem, the politicians elect to outlaw or regulate it to death. Predictable and kind of sad.
- 4yRyan MoyerBusiness MemberProperty Manager · Orlando Kissimmee Davenport Salt Lake City, Park City · Member since 2019 · 991 posts · 1k+ votes
Originally posted by @Collin Hays:
Originally posted by @Ryan Moyer:
Originally posted by @Josh C.:
I never understood this. Why in tourist areas do you restrict more people coming or larger groups? Not to mention personal property rights and free markets. But that’s another subject. Lol
I live in a ski area so I kind of understand it. Hate it but at least understand where they're coming from.
I don't think the issue is people coming in larger groups, the issue is housing for lower wage workers. These ski areas have insane property values (mine in Utah isn't as bad as those Colorado towns but same idea) so there's no way someone working for $7-15/hr at a ski resort or working restaurant wages or store clerk wages can afford to live there. In the past that meant they would just rent, but now every investor in the area isn't stupid enough to rent their properties as a LTR for $1500/mo when they could list it as an STR and make double/triple that even with a property manager.
So there's nowhere for lifties and store clerks and restaurant staff to live so they go somewhere else. Then the restaurants and ski resorts and whatnot are understaffed and complain. Now the city is stuck choosing whether to side with the STR owners that they did fine without for the last 50 years or the ski resorts/restaurants/shops that actually bring all the tourists into town.
It's why I'll probably never own a ski property, even though I love to ski and could manage them much easier since they'd only be 30 minutes away instead of 2000 miles like the places I do own for STR. I'd rather just make my money somewhere more STR friendly and use those profits to pay for a sweet ski vacation.
Ryan, that's understandable, but that is still the liberal politician way to deal with the issue. Instead of allowing free markets to come up with a solution to the problem, the politicians elect to outlaw or regulate it to death. Predictable and kind of sad.
Yeah I get it, but I don't think it's really different anywhere in that kind of economy. I actually edited my post I think as you were typing so you probably didn't see the last part. But we have bans and regulations like crazy here in Utah as well and Utah is about as conservative as it gets. And I'm not even just talking about Park City, my area is Eden UT which still has an old and rural government and you can pretty much only do STRs in one designated condo complex and a couple designated small neighborhoods. The entire rest of the valley they are banned and my best guess is even those areas won't last long and the owners there will get screwed as they clamp down more every year.
I want a ski rental badly but it's just not worth the risk to me. I just don't think it's safe anywhere unless it's a place in a condotel.
Cosmic Vacations4.9174 Reviews - Real Estate Agent · Grand Junction, CO · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 736 votes4y
Healthy communities need to have a housing balance @Collin Hays and the STR craze has caught communities off guard. It isn't really a liberal vs. conservative issue. In an effort to pause while better solutions are sought some towns are limiting the STRs. We all need service workers and those workers need reasonable rents. We are starting to see new policies such as a certain percentage of any new development dedicated to a more affordable unit. Aspen has housing lotteries. Palisade has a waiting list for STRs which keeps the number of units level. Telluride voted down an option to limit STRs but chose to add a special permit and lodging tax for the purpose of building affordable LTRs. @James Carlson
- 4yJay HinrichsBusiness MemberReal Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
Originally posted by @Collin Hays:
This is an interesting development but not that unexpected, given the political bent of the state of Colorado. Heavy-handed rules are to be expected, sooner or later, in states with a culture of heavy-handed government. This is why I have removed states such as OR, CA, WA, and CO from future STR consideration.
The CO ski towns have been invaded by liberal elites from CA. Just a fact. If I had to do a STR in CO, I suppose I would go with a more middle income destination such as Cuchara.
Stick with FL, GA, AL, TN, OK, the Carolinas. Texas - depends on the area. It ain’t your father’s Texas.
who vacations in OK ??? LOL
- 4yCollin HaysBusiness MemberProperty Manager · Gatlinburg, TN · Member since 2020 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
Originally posted by @Collin Hays:
This is an interesting development but not that unexpected, given the political bent of the state of Colorado. Heavy-handed rules are to be expected, sooner or later, in states with a culture of heavy-handed government. This is why I have removed states such as OR, CA, WA, and CO from future STR consideration.
The CO ski towns have been invaded by liberal elites from CA. Just a fact. If I had to do a STR in CO, I suppose I would go with a more middle income destination such as Cuchara.
Stick with FL, GA, AL, TN, OK, the Carolinas. Texas - depends on the area. It ain’t your father’s Texas.
who vacations in OK ??? LOL
I know someone who is doing pretty well in Broken Bow!
- 4yCollin HaysBusiness MemberProperty Manager · Gatlinburg, TN · Member since 2020 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
Originally posted by @Teri Feeney Styers:
Healthy communities need to have a housing balance @Collin Hays and the STR craze has caught communities off guard. It isn't really a liberal vs. conservative issue. In an effort to pause while better solutions are sought some towns are limiting the STRs. We all need service workers and those workers need reasonable rents. We are starting to see new policies such as a certain percentage of any new development dedicated to a more affordable unit. Aspen has housing lotteries. Palisade has a waiting list for STRs which keeps the number of units level. Telluride voted down an option to limit STRs but chose to add a special permit and lodging tax for the purpose of building affordable LTRs. @James Carlson
I am just glad I don't do business in places such as that.
- Rental Property Investor · Fort Collins, CO · Member since 2019 · 36 posts · 20 votes4y
We own/operate 2 AirBnB's in Fort Collins and have been close on purchasing a vacation home in Steamboat Springs which we would AirBnB while not there. We went in July to meet with our local agent, he basically put pause on showing us more properties (suggested HARD that we wait) due to the local moratorium going on there. Basically there is a HUGE shortage of affordable housing, and the powers that be feel STR's are part of the issue.
https://www.steamboatpilot.com...
https://www.engagesteamboat.ne...
Basically we would be in condoville/townhouse central with $18K+ year HOA's if we wanted to own/operate in the STR friendly zones.
- Rental Property Investor · Fort Collins, CO · Member since 2019 · 36 posts · 20 votes4y
Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
The same people staying in every other place in the USA not wanting to stay in a hotel. ;)
- Real Estate Agent · Denver CO and Summit County, CO · Member since 2015 · 74 posts · 43 votes4y
I agree with @Teri Feeney Styers that this came up quickly. Regardless of your political agenda, it is something every resort town is trying to navigate to keep the economies moving. I live in Frisco, Colorado, and they are looking at employee incentives but have no restrictions. Unincorporated Summit County had 90 vacancies they couldn't fill with the primary reason as affordable housing... They are actually offering up to $24,000 for a year long lease to locals for a 3BR place. That is great money for investors that can covert from STR to LTR. So incentives are working better than disincentives. Places that offer disincentives, like Breckenridge where homeowners had less than 2 months to understand there won't be any more STR license if you sell, saw an increase in everyone getting a license "just in case" and have seen all property values go down. There is an argument that slowing property values in this insane housing market isn't going to really hurt anyone but the rich, but there have been several people speaking up that they use the STR to afford their mortgage, so rather than hurting investors are they hurting the people trying to make it work in an expensive market? Are they encouraging people to just buy and sit on their properties instead?
There is a fine balance of government's role keeping the town running and invading property rights. I do think there are plenty of opportunities in the outskirts of resort towns for both price and STR regulations, but you take a hit on the income. Evergreen and Conifer are nice, but not in demand year round.
- Rental Property Investor · Denver, CO · Member since 2017 · 33 posts · 19 votes4y
@James Carlson Be curious to learn more about Conifer and Evergreen for STR. Anyone had luck there?
- Denver, CO · Member since 2021 · 28 posts · 10 votes4y
Both are very nice areas but you will likely have to prepare for slower months throughout the year as it is not a true vacation destination. I also believe (at least for Conifer) that in order to STR, the property must be on an acre or more.
Has anyone considered Alma (northern Park County) which is about 20-25 mins south of Breckinridge, just over Hoosier Pass? With the recent STR ban in Summit County, it seems like a very good play,. We tried to get under contract a few times there, specifically in Placer Valley without any luck.
- Coppell, TX · Member since 2015 · 485 posts · 310 votes4y
ski resorts could build "dorms" for the kids operating the lifts.. high density.
- Real Estate Agent · Colorado | stan.store/JamesCarlson · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes4y
I guess I am one of those liberals, though not elite and not from the coast. (I'm from Missouri originally, spent time in Kansas and Florida before moving to Colorado 11 years ago.) We specialize in knowing the Airbnb laws and finding legal STR investments in Colorado, but I still see a need for some kind of regulation. I understand your resistance to any government intrusion, but I don't think the unfettered free market has the good of most at heart. That's my opinion at least.
And as @Ryan Moyer pointed out, many conservative towns across the country are finding reasons to regulate this as well. It happened here in Colorado Springs. They voted in 2019 to allow short-term rentals of any kind. Just one year later, they pulled back. (You can still run a non-owner occupied STR; it's just in narrow pockets, and you have to know where to look.) Colorado Springs' city council is overwhelming conservative. To them, conservative means maintaining the status quo of neighborhood character.
- Real Estate Agent · Colorado | stan.store/JamesCarlson · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes4y
Yes, you can do quite well with Airbnb in Evergreen and Conifer. Both are a 30 minute drive into Denver but maintain the mountain vibe that a lot of visitors want when they visit. I think Evergreen is a little better as it's closer to I-70 and so you can get to the "action" quicker, but both have an "A" rating from AirDNA, both are averaging about $225/night and 85% occupancy.
The best places are always the biggest. If you can nab a 5br or larger, then you start to see well above $120,000/year in gross revenue. (I looked at one property in Evergreen for a client that was likely to pull in about $200k/year).
As @Russell T. said, there are a few more hoops to jump through. Jefferson County -- where both cities are -- requires an STR be on 1 acre of land and that you go before a planning board to get a license. But A) not everybody does that and B) it's more a formality than an actual review. If you meet the criteria, you're often good.
If you're wanting to avoid the Jefferson County review, take a look at Divide, Woodland Park, or Florissant in Teller County just west of Colorado Springs. No regulations and the numbers look similar. (about $210/night average and 83% occupancy.) Just had a client close down there on a big home that is estimated to pull in about $125,000/year or just about $10k/month.
It's not just any property. You do have to find the right one. It's got to have a good look, you need a nice porch with some privacy and views and a hot tub is almost a must. But it can be done.
- CO · Member since 2020 · 63 posts · 40 votes4y
I live in Colorado and see the view from both those wanting to rent out STRs and the affordable housing issue for workers on which the overall success of these mountain towns rely on. I think a reasonable approach and middle ground would be to require any property wishing to obtain a STR license to have to offer LTR at the same property-whether that's renting out their STR for long term part of the year or having at least a portion of the units be LTR. I was looking a while back at a property in one of these towns which had been converted into a triplex. I was planning to rent out 2 units as STRs and 1 as LTR (or vice versa) to keep some of the housing in the community.
- Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes4yI don't mind short term rentals being regulated due to neighborhood externalities -- traffic, noise, parties, too many people, that sort of thing. I mind regulations meant to interfere with the market.My feeling is simple: if the service workers can't afford to live there, the local economy will collapse and the tourists will move away and the rich remainder will be willing to pay prices that allow the companies to pay higher wages -- Equilibrium.
What I don't like is businesses using government action in throttling short term rentals. That's getting a subsidy via wage suppression -- force down rents in order to be able to keep wages down.
So, no, I cannot abide by "keeping housing affordable" as an excuse to ban/regulate short term rentals. Let the affected businesses build dorms (suggested above) or the like. - 4yBruce WoodruffPro MemberContractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
There is a balance to be found in this situation, and it will not be found by the Government. It never is and never has. The free market is the best, and most fair, arbiter.....
- 4yDon KonipolBusiness MemberInvestor · The Woodlands TX / Avon, CT · Member since 2009 · 6k+ posts · 10k+ votes
@James Carlson
Good point James.
While liberals are most willing to use laws and regulations to achieve goals they can’t in a free market, conservatives have always found it acceptable to regulate when they want something different then the free market provides. I think the laws and regulations can be divided into three groups
1- the regs deemed necessary for the health,safety and welfare of the public. Like making sure rapist and murderers aren’t teaching in elementary school.
2- the regs being used by a specific group to maintain or achieve a lifestyle or business advantage- like banning STRs because you don't want them in your neighborhood, or banning STR because you're heavily invested in hotels and don't want competition
3- the regs that make no economic sense but liberals support them because supporting them allows them to maintain their liberal "badge", like banning STR because there's a housing shortage (usually caused by governmental growth restrictions supported by these same liberals).
- 4yRyan MoyerBusiness MemberProperty Manager · Orlando Kissimmee Davenport Salt Lake City, Park City · Member since 2019 · 991 posts · 1k+ votes
Originally posted by @Don Konipol:
@James Carlson
Good point James.
While liberals are most willing to use laws and regulations to achieve goals they can’t in a free market, conservatives have always found it acceptable to regulate when they want something different then the free market provides. I think the laws and regulations can be divided into three groups
1- the regs deemed necessary for the health,safety and welfare of the public. Like making sure rapist and murderers aren’t teaching in elementary school.
2- the regs being used by a specific group to maintain or achieve a lifestyle or business advantage- like banning STRs because you don't want them in your neighborhood, or banning STR because you're heavily invested in hotels and don't want competition
3- the regs that make no economic sense but liberals support them because supporting them allows them to maintain their liberal "badge", like banning STR because there's a housing shortage (usually caused by governmental growth restrictions supported by these same liberals).
You nailed it here.
The reality is we really have no friends on either side of the aisle. Liberals dislike us because we cause housing issues for low wage workers. Conservatives dislike us because we bring a transient population into their neighborhoods.
The one thing we have going for us is that we make the towns money, and they like money. But as soon as a larger source of money, like a ski resort, is at odds with us we know who they are going to support.
The liberal side of things is well documented in these Colorado ski towns. The conservative issues crop up in areas like my place in rural Utah. I always laugh to myself when I read the city council meeting notes and see one of the folks in my neighborhood, who I know proudly flies a "don't tread on me" flag off their front porch, begging the local government to intervene and tell me what I can and can't do with my property because it doesn't fit their definition of neighborhood hominess.
The only real way to avoid these issues is to enter markets where vacation rentals are a large established part of the economy like many of the vacation markets discussed on here often. Anywhere else is always going to be a risk that could turn on you any day regardless of the political leanings of the area.
Cosmic Vacations4.9174 Reviews - Real Estate Agent · Colorado | stan.store/JamesCarlson · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes4y
Both well said.
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