Is ANYTHING Worth Fighting For?

Is ANYTHING Worth Fighting For?

Real Estate Investor · OH · Member since 2008 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes

I've been wondering lately if the American people would rise up and fight for ANYTHING? My personal opinion is that the American people would give up every single right they have (including their property) and become virtual slaves to a socialist/communist/fascist government without any fight whatsoever (or has that ship already sailed).

Is there ANYTHING that YOU would fight for? Anything at all?

0Reply
704 views

Most Popular Reply

Jeff TumbarelloPro Member
Real Estate Broker · Fort Myers, FL · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 323 votes
17y

For full disclosure, I did not read the entire thread..... Politics gets boring. Too many viewpoints, not much in the way of facts

here are some facts

As a young man I served in the USMC. I was an infantryman in Desert Storm. We were ordered to go out and do terriable things to young men just like ourselves, it was our duty. We all took the oath. We all wanted to be there.

In the name of my wife and children, I would do much worse to any involved, with a smile on my face......

I know a Vietnam jarhead, he was with 1/9, the walking dead. Those guys know what a bad day really is.

We spoke about Mrs Neopalatiano and her singleing out of Vet's as a threat.

His comment was. " that is the only person in DC that understands what a threat is", LOL

We are blessd as a country. Go to the Westbank and ask this question.

See this reply in the discussion

251 Replies

Jump to latestLatest
  • Investor · colorado springs, CO · Member since 2009 · 283 posts · 45 votes
    17y
    Originally posted by Shana Gray:
    Amnesty international released a video where they waterboarded a guy and blamed the USA for treating people harshly. they did not explain any of the context. apparently 3 people were waterboarded and they were the masterminds behind 9/11. this was not explained to the public. it made it look like the USA is the problem and overlooked what terrorists have done worldwide in USA, UK, Europe, etc. (Canada has caught ours before anything got blown up) and not to mention in the middle east. this video was pushed by one of my favourite international British DJs. also being in the entertainment industry I am always being subjected to very screwed up views by people who use way too many drugs. so you know. I will leave it at that for now. I don't like it when people push terrorist rights but don't balance it with any context in light of world events. it makes me question if they have any concept of the full reality of the situation. go to the fire stations in New York City and read the long lists of names of people who died in 9/11. I personally am grateful that there are people trying to protect our freedoms and those of others. and I am very sorry that the USA was the first and had to take the greatest hit and perhaps didn't have the best exit strategy planned and didn't take the best approach. but considering I respect the overall willingness to deal with an international problem.


    Stay focused Shana. We're here on this forum, provide a concrete example from here, if you have one. Otherwise, if you get tired of hearing news about some obscure happenings, stop digging for news about them.

    BTW, did I mention I get tired of hearing how flat the earth is? Now let me dig something to support my statement.

  • Investor · colorado springs, CO · Member since 2009 · 283 posts · 45 votes
    17y
    Originally posted by Shana Gray:
    right. Amnesty waterboarded a guy on film, to say that waterboarding is torture and to draw attention to it worldwide a couple years back.


    But that's not really torture, it's right up there with recreational drugs, now is it?
    http://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/Mancow-Takes-on-Waterboarding-and-Loses.html
  • cottage country / Cobourg area, Ontario · Member since 2009 · 201 posts · 5 votes
    17y

    no I live in a very Liberal country and it's a daily experience for me. regardless I think the USA is far more to the right than we are even with Liberal politicians in power. regardless it doesn't matter. I provided an example because you asked, but it doesn't matter.

    I have two funerals this week to attend to. not military. I'm out for a bit.

  • Investor · colorado springs, CO · Member since 2009 · 283 posts · 45 votes
    17y
    Originally posted by Shana Gray:
    no I live in a very Liberal country and it's a daily experience for me. regardless I think the USA is far more to the right than we are even with Liberal politicians in power. regardless it doesn't matter. I provided an example because you asked, but it doesn't matter.

    I have two funerals this week to attend to. not military. I'm out for a bit.

    Wow, a very liberal country with conservatives in power... and USA is far more to the right even with the communists (as you called them) in power.

    Now that's a shocker, who would've thought... I sense deep confusion...

  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    17y
    Originally posted by Shana Gray:
    Amnesty international released a video where they waterboarded a guy and blamed the USA for treating people harshly.


    Okay, one more post, then I'll leave this alone...

    Shana -

    You do realize that after WWII, the United States executed several Japanese prisoners of war after finding them guilty of waterboarding American soldiers to gain information.

    From that, it's clear that the stance of the United States back then was that waterboarding was considered torture and against International Law, and anyone found guilty of the crime (including when used in wartime to gain information) could be punished by death.

    Then, all of the sudden, without any discussion with Congress, the United Nations, or any internal or global legislative organization, the Executive Branch of the government unilaterally decided it was okay.

    So, if you think waterboarding is not torture, you should probably be apologizing to those Japanese servicemen who I guess you believe were unjustly murdered by the U.S. government after WWII.

    Or do you think that the U.S. should enjoy privileges (like waterboarding) that other nations should not?

    So, which is it?

    Was the U.S. wrong for waterboarding the 9/11 suspects or wrong for executing the Japanese soldiers who did it during WWII?

    You can't have it both ways.

  • Attorney · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2008 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    17y
    Originally posted by J Scott:
    Originally posted by Tim Wieneke:
    [
    I wasn't aware I had the same Constitutional rights as a Qatar citizen living in Illinois who pled guilty to being part of an Al Qaeda terror cell.


    Let's not distort the discussion...


    I'm not at all. I'm just providing details on the person you glossed over as a "legal resident". The court case you cited does not apply. It deals with, and I will quote, "Immigration and Naturalization Service cannot detain indefinitely individuals who have been ordered removed but cannot be repatriated to their homelands."

    There is no evidence that the admitted terrorist living in Illinois was not able to repatriate to Qatar.

  • Investor · colorado springs, CO · Member since 2009 · 283 posts · 45 votes
    17y
    Originally posted by J Scott:
    Originally posted by Shana Gray:
    Amnesty international released a video where they waterboarded a guy and blamed the USA for treating people harshly.


    Okay, one more post, then I'll leave this alone...

    Shana -

    You do realize that after WWII, the United States executed several Japanese prisoners of war after finding them guilty of waterboarding American soldiers to gain information.

    From that, it's clear that the stance of the United States back then was that waterboarding was considered torture and against International Law, and anyone found guilty of the crime (including when used in wartime to gain information) could be punished by death.

    Then, all of the sudden, without any discussion with Congress, the United Nations, or any internal or global legislative organization, the Executive Branch of the government unilaterally decided it was okay.

    So, if you think waterboarding is not torture, you should probably be apologizing to those Japanese servicemen who I guess you believe were unjustly murdered by the U.S. government after WWII.

    Or do you think that the U.S. should enjoy privileges (like waterboarding) that other nations should not?

    So, which is it?

    Was the U.S. wrong for waterboarding the 9/11 suspects or wrong for executing the Japanese soldiers who did it during WWII?

    You can't have it both ways.


    Here you go again J. In Canada and Cuba (Gitmo) waterboarding is NOT torture. Happy now?
  • cottage country / Cobourg area, Ontario · Member since 2009 · 201 posts · 5 votes
    17y

    my issue is spreading this propaganda without providing a context. if Amnesty had mentioned that there were 3 people waterboarded and they were 9/11 masterminds, I would not have considered it propaganda. they made it look like USA was torturing everyone. when people do not provide a fair context, I can't support that. it does not provide a context, and therefore is only partially true, which is dangerous.

  • cottage country / Cobourg area, Ontario · Member since 2009 · 201 posts · 5 votes
    17y

    I had to do a great deal of research at that time to find out the truth and provide a context for myself. most people probably wouldn't have bothered.

  • cottage country / Cobourg area, Ontario · Member since 2009 · 201 posts · 5 votes
    17y
    Originally posted by Sorin T:
    Originally posted by Shana Gray:
    no I live in a very Liberal country and it's a daily experience for me. regardless I think the USA is far more to the right than we are even with Liberal politicians in power. regardless it doesn't matter. I provided an example because you asked, but it doesn't matter.

    I have two funerals this week to attend to. not military. I'm out for a bit.

    Wow, a very liberal country with conservatives in power... and USA is far more to the right even with the communists (as you called them) in power.

    Now that's a shocker, who would've thought... I sense deep confusion...


    Canada has a Conservative minority government. There are four parties with seats in the house. Politics tend to swing toward the centre when they go too far in any one direction. Canada is swinging back toward Conservative. Toronto is basically Liberal. The rest of Ontario is Conservative.
  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    17y
    Originally posted by Shana Gray:
    my issue is spreading this propaganda without providing a context. if Amnesty had mentioned that there were 3 people waterboarded and they were 9/11 masterminds, I would not have considered it propaganda.


    Why is that? Is it okay to commit a capital offense if you only do it 3 times? How many times does the government need to break the law before it's not considered propaganda to report on it?

    Personally, I think having the most powerful person in the world breaking the law even one time is worthy of press release without it being considered propaganda.

    So, since you brought it up, I'd still like to hear your answer:

    Was the U.S. wrong for waterboarding the 9/11 suspects or wrong for executing the Japanese soldiers who did it during WWII?
  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    17y
    Originally posted by Tim Wieneke:

    I'm just providing details on the person you glossed over as a "legal resident".


    Come on, Tim...you're a bright guy...

    Let me simplify this for you:

    - Do you agree that Bill of Rights protection extends to legal residents of the United States?

    - Assuming so (the Supreme Court has said so), do you agree that at the time of his arrest, this suspect was a legal resident of the United States?

    - Assuming so, is it therefore logical (transitivity property) to presume that this suspect was entitled to protection under Habeas Corpus and the Bill of Rights for the time preceding any admission of guilt or trial?

    Where did I lose you? Which part do you disagree with?

  • cottage country / Cobourg area, Ontario · Member since 2009 · 201 posts · 5 votes
    17y

    J Scott I am not a know it all and will leave that up to the proper authorities to decide.

    my personal policy is generally let he who is without sin cast the first stone. it is not up to me.

  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    17y
    Originally posted by Shana Gray:

    my personal policy is generally let he who is without sin cast the first stone.


    Just my opinion, but the rest of your posts in this thread certainly haven't given that impression...
  • cottage country / Cobourg area, Ontario · Member since 2009 · 201 posts · 5 votes
    17y

    reporting should be based on true facts. anything less than a true picture including all the important facts in my opinion lacks conscience. that is what we demand and get in our Canadian news. we do not skew the news so dramatically that we leave out important facts. we do not base our news on a tiny percentage of the population and their viewpoints. we are inclusive. if anyone didn't respect these measures my guess would be that they would lose their job. American news reporting seems to be a lot of opinions. that is fine if that is how you like it. the rest of the world considers it "biased" and therefore untrue.

  • cottage country / Cobourg area, Ontario · Member since 2009 · 201 posts · 5 votes
    17y

    I demand truth but I am not a judgmental person.

  • cottage country / Cobourg area, Ontario · Member since 2009 · 201 posts · 5 votes
    17y
    Originally posted by Shana Gray:
    "biased" and therefore untrue.


    as in, there may be truth in it but it is not the full truth.
  • cottage country / Cobourg area, Ontario · Member since 2009 · 201 posts · 5 votes
    17y

    also J Scott the great majority of the world does not live under such comfortably safe circumstances that they can afford to be generous to known criminals. I hope that gives you some idea as to where the rest of the world may be coming from outside the USA. if you are in comfortably safe and blessed circumstances it is because others have done the hard work to secure your borders and where you live. it might help you see the rest of the world and where other people may be coming from.

  • Attorney · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2008 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    17y
    Originally posted by J Scott:
    Originally posted by Tim Wieneke:

    I'm just providing details on the person you glossed over as a "legal resident".


    Come on, Tim...you're a bright guy...

    Thank you. I've examined the ruling you cited further and have found more evidence supporting the detainment of Ali Saleh Kahlah al-Marri. The court case you cited refers to detainment by the Immigration and Naturalization Service. Al-Marri was detained by the FBI, not the INS. It further states specifically that "Under the regulations, in order to secure release, the detainee must show, "to the satisfaction of the attorney general," that he or she poses neither danger to the community nor risk of flight."

    Perhaps you have a better case to cite to support your opinion?

    Originally posted by J Scott:
    Where did I lose you?


    Rule of law. It is one thing to call yourself a Constitutionalist. It is another to respect the separation of powers inherrent in letting case law determine the procedure for handling an admitted terror cell member living in Illinois. And no, issuing a memo calling for "review" of this case does not make Obama the hero and has in no way invalidated Al-Marri's detainment. It makes him an attorney turned President respecting case law as you should.

    Tim

  • Real Estate Investor · OH · Member since 2008 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    17y

    No and No. First, illegal combatants are not protected under the Geneva Conventions. So, 911 terrorists captured on a foreign battlefield have absolutely no protection. They can even be executed on the spot and that is perfectly legal.

    I'm not aware of any Japanese soldiers that were ever executed for Waterboarding. Are you? Japanese soldiers were executed for war crimes, but they certainly weren't executed for just for waterboarding.

    Mike

  • Jeff TumbarelloPro Member
    Real Estate Broker · Fort Myers, FL · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 323 votes
    17y

    I have a theory as to the Japanese always fighting to the death.

    After Bataan, if I were in WW2. I pretty sure all the Japanese I faced would have fought to the death. One way or another

    I love people who want to judge war that have never been in one.

  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    17y
    Originally posted by Tim Wieneke:
    "Under the regulations, in order to secure release, the detainee must show, "to the satisfaction of the attorney general," that he or she poses neither danger to the community nor risk of flight."

    Yes, that is to secure release.

    I'm not talking about being released.

    I'm talking about the right to legal counsel, due process, and all aspects of Habeas Corpus. Plenty of criminals are denied bail, but they are not denied due process.

    Again, so I know how to respond, specifically which part of below doesn't make sense to you or do you disagree with:

    1) Do you agree that Bill of Rights protection extends to legal residents of the United States?

    2) Assuming so (the Supreme Court has said so), do you agree that at the time of his arrest, this suspect was a legal resident of the United States?

    3) Assuming so, is it therefore logical (transitivity property) to presume that this suspect was entitled to protection under Habeas Corpus and the Bill of Rights for the time preceding any admission of guilt or trial?

  • Jeff TumbarelloPro Member
    Real Estate Broker · Fort Myers, FL · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 323 votes
    17y

    J Scott,

    Do you see a difference between an enemy and a criminal?

    I do.

  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    17y
    Originally posted by MikeOH:

    I'm not aware of any Japanese soldiers that were ever executed for Waterboarding. Are you?


    Well, John McCain certainly is aware of it:

    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/11/29/politics/main3554687.shtml

    As is Paul Begala (and apparently Ari Fleischer too):

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gj9ZBEgn-4o&feature=related

    (see 3:00 into video)


    This article has more detail:

    http://www.pegc.us/archive/Articles/wallach_drop_by_drop_draft_20061016.pdf

  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    17y
    Originally posted by MikeOH:


    Can you please provide some support for this assertion?

    According to Article 5 of the Third Geneva Convention:

    "Should any doubt arise as to whether persons, having committed a belligerent act and having fallen into the hands of the enemy, belong to any of the categories enumerated in Article 4, such persons shall enjoy the protection of the present Convention until such time as their status has been determined by a competent tribunal."

    Additionally, in 1958, an International Criminal Tribunal quoted the following, in attempt to clarify the definition of an "unlawful combatant" (as the term is not specifically addressed by the Geneva Conventions):

    "Every person in enemy hands must be either a prisoner of war and, as such, be covered by the Third Convention; or a civilian covered by the Fourth Convention. Furthermore, "There is no intermediate status; nobody in enemy hands can be outside the law," because in the opinion of the ICRC, "If civilians directly engage in hostilities, they are considered 'unlawful' or 'unprivileged' combatants or belligerents (the treaties of humanitarian law do not expressly contain these terms). They may be prosecuted under the domestic law of the detaining state for such action."

    Additionally, this from Wikipedia:

    "A combatant who does not qualify for POW status can, under the provisions of the Geneva Conventions, expect to be treated humanely; and before he is punished, can expect to get a trial in 'a regularly constituted court.'"

    Would love to get more support for your statement, as I had never heard (and can't find supporting evidence) that the military can legally execute someone who had been detained, under any circumstance.

Join the conversationCreate a free account to reply, vote on answers and follow this thread.