Real Estate Investor · OH · Member since 2008 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
I've been wondering lately if the American people would rise up and fight for ANYTHING? My personal opinion is that the American people would give up every single right they have (including their property) and become virtual slaves to a socialist/communist/fascist government without any fight whatsoever (or has that ship already sailed).
Is there ANYTHING that YOU would fight for? Anything at all?
For full disclosure, I did not read the entire thread..... Politics gets boring. Too many viewpoints, not much in the way of facts
here are some facts
As a young man I served in the USMC. I was an infantryman in Desert Storm. We were ordered to go out and do terriable things to young men just like ourselves, it was our duty. We all took the oath. We all wanted to be there.
In the name of my wife and children, I would do much worse to any involved, with a smile on my face......
I know a Vietnam jarhead, he was with 1/9, the walking dead. Those guys know what a bad day really is.
We spoke about Mrs Neopalatiano and her singleing out of Vet's as a threat.
His comment was. " that is the only person in DC that understands what a threat is", LOL
We are blessd as a country. Go to the Westbank and ask this question.
No and No. First, illegal combatants are not protected under the Geneva Conventions. So, 911 terrorists captured on a foreign battlefield have absolutely no protection. They can even be executed on the spot and that is perfectly legal.
I'm not aware of any Japanese soldiers that were ever executed for Waterboarding. Are you? Japanese soldiers were executed for war crimes, but they certainly weren't executed for just for waterboarding.
See my two posts above...
For the sake of argument, let's assume you now believe that we did in fact execute Japanese POWs for waterboarding after WWII (I think I provided reasonable evidence), and also let's assume you can't provide any evidence that the military is allowed to execute captured combatants without any due process (I'd be very surprised if you can find support for this).
Assuming we're in agreement on those issues, I'd love to get your answer to my question:
Was the U.S. wrong for waterboarding the 9/11 suspects or wrong for executing the Japanese soldiers who did it during WWII?
Definitely I will fight for my family, if they have been treated badly by someone I will not have a second thought of depending them against someone who maltreated them.
I did not see a single example of a prisoner being executed for waterboarding. Japanese interrogators that waterboarded prisoners who also murdered people were executed, but I didn't see a single case of anyone whose worst action was to waterboard someone that was executed.
You answered your own question. Illegal combatants are not afforded rights under the Geneva Convention, they are treated under the laws of the detaining state. Our laws (and opinions) from the attorney general allowed waterboarding - thus it was legal. Furthermore, these illegal enemy combatants could have been executed just as spies were during WWII.
Furthermore, the United States waterboards our own key military personnel during training. Is that torture?
if some people are more fond of terrorists than our own people, why don't those people move to the middle east?
Is that a rhetorical question?
I'm guessing most people who are fond of middle eastern terrorists already live in the middle east.
Of course, there are plenty of domestic terrorists as well (eco-terrorists, for example), and I would think their friends and family would prefer to live near them, wherever they live (probably not in the middle east).
Any other pressing questions we can help you with?
Furthermore, the United States waterboards our own key military personnel during training. Is that torture?
I started an e-mail letter campaign entitled "Save Demi" to some key media figures with the hopes of raising awareness for the torture Demi Moore suffered at the hands of Ridley Scott for the waterboarding scene in GI Jane. Sadly, this appeal appears to have fallen on deaf ears and this blithe disregard for justice must remain a stain upon America.
J Scott it does seem a little odd that you are so adamant on protecting one terrorist. do you know this person? is there something in it for you? if there is that is okay. but if you ignore all the other things that have happened in this war to the exclusion of one fine point.. does it bother you that thousands of Americans have died to protect you from this one guy and others like him?
"Under the regulations, in order to secure release, the detainee must show, "to the satisfaction of the attorney general," that he or she poses neither danger to the community nor risk of flight."
Yes, that is to secure release.
I'm not talking about being released.
I'm talking about the right to legal counsel, due process, and all aspects of Habeas Corpus. Plenty of criminals are denied bail, but they are not denied due process.
We're not talking about just a criminal. Good grief man it was a time of war! Read law. HE WAS A FREAKING AL QUAEDA TERRORIST AND SPY!!!!!!
You talk about him being a "legal resident". He was caught with fake identification. What does that do to your status as "legal" resident when it's discovered you've been using false documentation? Even you can answer this one.
I've already asked you guys to keep this topic on point, and once again the conversation was taken to another place. Please keep to the topic 'Is ANYTHING Worth Fighting For?' or this discussion will be closed.
I've also penalized the influence of certain members for ignoring my previous request to do so (not all respondents, but those I felt willingly took this discussion off course), and will double the penalty if it happens again.
Stay on topic, please. If you want to talk about waterboarding, or Canada v. USA, or how you do your laundry, create a topic about it - don't hijack the threads of other people.
J Scott it does seem a little odd that you are so adamant on protecting one terrorist. do you know this person?
I'm not sure which terrorist you're referring to, but I'm pretty sure I don't know any terrorists.
As for protecting terrorists, I have no inclination to do that. I do however, have a VERY, VERY, VERY real interest in protecting the Constitution. And if that means giving rights and due process to EVERY SINGLE *suspected* terrorist in this country, I'm okay with it.
Your problem is that you're scared, and you're acting on emotion. You think that if someone is accused of something terribly heinous, they should lose their rights *JUST IN CASE* it turns out that they're guilty.
I believe just the opposite. The purpose of the Constitution is not just to protect those who are clearly not guilty of a crime, but more importantly to protect those who are accused of a crime, but have not yet been given the opportunity to defend themselves.
You seem to believe "guilty until proven innocent" is the right way to deal with suspected terrorists. I believe that the system of law that this country was founded upon is still good, even in this most recent war.
I don't know if you don't understand the purpose of the Constitution, or if you just disagree with it (clearly it's one of those based on your statements), but I'm a believer in the Constitution, and if I or you or anyone else is ever suspected of a crime, I hope we are afforded our Constitutional rights, regardless of how heinous the accusation may be.
Otherwise, what's to stop people from making heinous accusations just to get other's Constitutions rights taken away. It would be no different than the Salem Witch Trials. Make a heinous claim, and we burn you at the stake without even giving due process.
That's the not the United States I want to live in.
is there something in it for you? if there is that is okay.
Yes, what's in it for me is the opportunity to continue to live in a country where people retain their Constitutional Rights, regardless of how heinous the *accusation* may be.
does it bother you that thousands of Americans have died to protect you from this one guy and others like him?
It bothers me that people like you don't understand that the soldiers haven't just died to protect me, they've died to protect the United States and its way of life. That way of life is based upon our great Constitution, and therefore these soldiers have died to to protect our Constitution. Perhaps you should care about it a fraction as much as those who have died do.
If you choose to nullify the Constitution in any way, you are essentially asking these soldiers to die in vain.
You clearly don't understand what this country was based upon or the significance of the documents our founding fathers created. And that's okay. But, understand that that's what our soldiers are fighting to protect, and have some respect for that, please.
Stay on topic, please. If you want to talk about waterboarding, or Canada v. USA, or how you do your laundry, create a topic about it - don't hijack the threads of other people.
I apologize to the board if I've taken this off topic or incited any ill feelings towards any other members. Certainly not my intent.
JScott - I saw that your post came 3 minutes after mine, and it clearly took longer than that to write it, so I'm assuming you were just continuing the previous line of thought. You have not been penalized . . . don't worry.
Based on all these posts, I think the consensus is that absolutely nothing is worth fight for (except your immediate family). They could take away all of our rights and everyone would just go along with it. I guess I shouldn't be surprised, that's exactly what happened in Nazi Germany and the people just went along with it.
I have had interesting discussions with some of my family who now know that I'm often carrying a firearm (depending on what state I'm in). None of them approve of it. Neither did my ex wife until it came to a moment of truth when she was very happy I had a gun and knew how to use it.
This got me to thinking a bit. The armed private citizen is what started this country. I carry the gun (I used to carry a Beretta but have since switched to the very excellent Glock 30) at all times where legal, even to my favorite coffee shop populated by many of my liberal friends who would vehemently disagree with me. Cases like Al-Marri show us that there are violent killers who want to kill us who aren't afraid to live in our neighborhoods and I know from my own moment of truth that there is often insufficient time for police to arrive and intervene. The first line of defense is the armed citizen. When I took on the responsibility of carrying a firearm, I took on the responsibility, you could even say the obligation, to fight in circumstances of protection of my own life and those around me - even those that disagree with me. Thankfully Castle Doctrine supports me in Indiana, and in Florida it supports me in a moment of immediate threat. So don't worry Sorin. As you continue to protect direct threats to your own life, you have a chance there's someone like me who's carrying a gun and willing to shoot them for you if you have to face your own moment of truth.
Based on all these posts, I think the consensus is that absolutely nothing is worth fight for (except your immediate family). They could take away all of our rights and everyone would just go along with it. I guess I shouldn't be surprised, that's exactly what happened in Nazi Germany and the people just went along with it.
Mike
Nazi Germany was a bit different as the system of government the preceded it was a monarchy followed by a liberal democracy.
I don't think what we have here is Americans rolling over and giving up. I think there's a lot that's actively not being said. I would venture to guess that there are many who know what are going to physically fight for and have this determined in their minds and their stockpiles of firearms and ammunition and amongst their close contacts that aren't willing to post the full details on in a publicly monitored forum.
Based on all these posts, I think the consensus is that absolutely nothing is worth fight for (except your immediate family). They could take away all of our rights and everyone would just go along with it. I guess I shouldn't be surprised, that's exactly what happened in Nazi Germany and the people just went along with it.
Mike
You really inferred that from the 5 or so posts that answered your original question?
No, from the 10 pages of posts that followed my initial posts and the several attempts that I made to ask that very specific question.
Do you disagree with my assessment. If so, what is YOUR answer?
Is there ANYTHING that is worth fighting for? If so, what? Which freedom would the government have to take away before you would be willing to fight? If they started hauling off all the Jews in the US and executing them, would you fight? If they declared the 2nd Amendment null and void and came to take your guns (if you have any), would you fight? If they took Rush Limbaugh or Nancy Pelosi away because of their political views, would you fight?