Real Estate Investor · Tampa Bay, FL · Member since 2009 · 180 posts · 17 votes
First of all, I appreciate the men and women who choose to serve in the armed forces for our country. And I do not mean to offend them in any way, but instead try to gain insight in some questions that I have.
Why do you think we invade and occupy countries in the middle east? should we feel safer that we have done that? Does it make sense to do that in order to fight a never ending "war on terror"?
What have we gained from the invasions of these countries?
And why the hell are we bombing Pakistan?
I would ask if we are defending freedom, but I know that we aren't doing that. The Govt is steadily taking our freedom away, so that wouldn't make any sense.
Investor · Westminster, CO · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
15y
Wow, where do I even begin? Whenever you get more than one person, you will have some kind of 'war.". Just look at marriage. Practically all sports is about one person or one team beating another. It is innate in man's nature to war. Man, at his core, is evil, greedy and selfish. As proof, for those of you who are parents, did you have to teach your young children how to throw a tantrum or how to share?
What happens if the US does not get involved? Just look at history. Germany invaded Poland in 1939 and the US did not get involved. Look at what that brought the entire planet. The complexities, reasons and motivations of modern warfare has been written about in numerous books. Money, politics, religion, power, or just to watch the world burn, the reasons are many and varied. How should the US react to terrorism? How should the US react when one country invade another country? Is there even a 'right' reaction? I don't have the answer. I know that doing nothing is not the right answer. "He that knoweth to do good and doeth it not, to him it is sin.". So the question is, what is "good."?
Real Estate Investor · Frisco, TX, TX · Member since 2010 · 388 posts · 138 votes
15y
Originally posted by Mike M:
Therein lies the conundrum, if all man is evil then all man is bad.
Mike,
with all due respect, I do not believe that all men are evil and that our intentions are purely motivated by evil. That is a grim point of view in life. I might be naiive but I chose to see the positive in this world.
Investor · Westminster, CO · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
15y
Ali
As J Scott pointed out, man's intentions are, at it's very base, motivated by survival instinct. If a man's survival was obtained ONLY by killing someone else, he would kill. I doubt very few men would chose to just die. If mankind were good, he would say that the other man's right to life is higher than mine.
Abortion is a good example. The mother decides that her child would just be too much of an inconvenience in her life so she has it murdered. And then they have to cover up the murder by calling it choice, when in fact, the child had NO CHOICE whatsoever in the matter.
Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
15y
Originally posted by Mike M:
Ali
As J Scott pointed out, man's intentions are, at it's very base, motivated by survival instinct. If a man's survival was obtained ONLY by killing someone else, he would kill.
Just clarify my points, I don't believe man is evil or bad. In fact, I don't believe that these concepts even exist outside the constructs of society.
To say that men are murderers because they have a survival instinct and it can drive them to kill is like saying men are rapists because they have a sex drive and it sometimes leads to rape. Remember, animals will kill this of their own species all the time to protect themselves and their offspring. Man is just another animal, albeit with a larger cerebral cortex that provides him a bit better ability to use common sense and reason.
Real Estate Investor · Frisco, TX, TX · Member since 2010 · 388 posts · 138 votes
15y
Originally posted by Mike M:
Ali
As J Scott pointed out, man's intentions are, at it's very base, motivated by survival instinct. If a man's survival was obtained ONLY by killing someone else, he would kill. I doubt very few men would chose to just die. If mankind were good, he would say that the other man's right to life is higher than mine.
Abortion is a good example. The mother decides that her child would just be too much of an inconvenience in her life so she has it murdered. And then they have to cover up the murder by calling it choice, when in fact, the child had NO CHOICE whatsoever in the matter.
Mike,
I agree with you a little, however, most people are not fighting for survival on a daily basis. There are people whose hearts are in the right place, even if it is for selfish reasons.
Also, defending your life does not inherently make you evil. Animals also try to defend themselves through various mechanisms, would that make them evil? Survival is a basic instint that all beings are born with, and cannot be confined in the black and white definition of good or evil.
BiggerPockets Founder · HI · Member since 2008 · 16k+ posts · 5k+ votes
15y
I just want to jump in and say that this is probably the best discussion about an issue that could have gotten ugly that I've ever seen on our site. We did have to remove a few posts early on, but other wise you guys have been awesome!
Hopefully when I have some time, I can share my thoughts as well.
Investor · Westminster, CO · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
15y
Ali
In the US, most people are not fighting for survival, but there are many places around the world where the next meal is a mystery.
If we don't want to use "good" and "evil", then we can use "instinct." But let's face it, if you are the one being killed, you would probably call the other person "evil."
While I do not believe in 'evolution' in the traditional sense, I do believe that man does evolve, both positively and negatively. Our technology advances and medical advances have been tremendous. But by saving "marginally" healthy people who then pass on "marginal" genetics, we procreate 'weaker' folks. But that debate is best left to the philosophers and pundits, not in this thread.
I mention that to ask, if man is evolving, will he ever evolve PAST war? Will mankind ever get to the point where he realizes that war and fighting is not the best way to achieve what he seeks? I would certainly hope so, but from my perspective, it is a long way off. It is probably more likely that mankind will kill himself off before he advances past the petty and selfish desires that drive him today. Mankind is still in it's infancy as far as progress is concerned. Can he advance? I hope so!
Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
15y
Originally posted by Mike M:
I mention that to ask, if man is evolving, will he ever evolve PAST war? Will mankind ever get to the point where he realizes that war and fighting is not the best way to achieve what he seeks?
That's an awesome question...
In my opinion, unless and until our instincts change, war will never end. And I've never read anything that argues that instincts can and do change over time. Instincts are so basically ingrained within all living things that it's reasonable to believe that they are more complex than just basic genetics.
Think about it... You can argue even the lowest forms of life, such as viruses and basic RNA, have instincts -- how else would they "know" to invade cells, take them over, and begin using them to pump out new genetic material?
If instincts are this much a part of every living organism's makeup, it's unlikely to change or evolve away any time soon...if ever. In my opinion, the difference between man and other animals is relatively small in the scheme of things, despite seeming very large. So to think that we'll ever act much differently than other animals appears unlikely (to me, at least).
Given that, my guess is that war is an inevitable part of man's existence, and will probably be around for as long the species is around...
Real Estate Investor · Tampa Bay, FL · Member since 2009 · 180 posts · 17 votes
15y
IMO People are not inherently evil. The average Man maybe, not women or children though. Ok there are evil women but thats another topic ;-)
If you had your family killed by a predator drone in Pakistan earlier this year, would you be more evil? Odds are more likely that you would be full of hate. And most people in the US don't even know that we were bombing Pakistan. I understand that terrorists can recruit people, and that is how they build their army. But wont we make recruiting stronger this way?
My OPINION is that we can pull completely out of the middle east, take the NEXT trillion we will spend over 7 years and spend it on border security and homeland security and be much safer. But it seems to me we are not doing this for safety.
Investor · Round Rock, TX · Member since 2010 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
15y
Yeah Michael...we tried that strategy in WWII and it didn't work out so well...ya remember?
Traditional war and fighting are necessary components to us killing bad guys and maintaining our place atop the food chain. One of the most basic human frailties is ENVY...so I don't see our enemies stopping poking a stick in our eye any chance they get to do so.
Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
15y
Nah, I don't buy the cold war as a war, I was in it. People did get killed, but it wasn't a military combat action, which is what I think of as a war.
Good and evil, absolutely the is evil that drive the minds of what we refer to as mentally ill persons, Jeffery Dalmer (sp?) and other serial killers. How about those that cut heads off their victims, even after they are dead, just to make a statement, like the drug war in Mexico...is that evil? It goes beyond just killing for a business purpose. Is throwing acid in someone's face evil?
Mental illness, bottom line definition seems to be when someone fails to conform to the expectations of society due to any personality or physical manifestation....while we try to label disorders that are similar.
I don't know if evil is in all of us, to some degree, but there are certainly evil people.
I think Jason has a point too, going further, evil may only exist if there is good. Makes a good movie plot....
Investor · Westminster, CO · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
15y
J Scott
I do agree that instincts are very difficult, if not impossible, to change. But will man gain more and more ability to CONTROL basic instincts?
Hollywood likes to churn out movies about mankind reverting back to "kill or be killed" because it makes for great movies. "The Book of Eli" comes to mind. Or going back, the Mad Max movies. Can you think of an apocalyptic movie where mankind actually worked together to make a better world after a global disaster? Although the movie "2012" was a horrible movie, I would be curious to see how a writer would make the next 100 years turn out after 2012, you could call it 2112. Would mankind work together to make the world a better place? Hmmmm?
I guess we can't be "Pollyanna" or "Chicken Little", can we? But I would hope that we can work towards less and less conflict in the world. Here is a start I would like to see, to have Muslim's stop calling all Non-Muslims "infidels." We are all people with a variety of belief systems, and each believes they are right in their own eyes.
Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
15y
Originally posted by Mike M:
Here is a start I would like to see, to have Muslim's stop calling all Non-Muslims "infidels." We are all people with a variety of belief systems, and each believes they are right in their own eyes.
Absolutely agreed...
At the same time, let's encourage Christians to stop telling Muslims and other non-Christians that they are going to hell if they don't change their belief system...
For those of us who are not religious, it's very easy to see why there is so much conflict among religions -- everyone thinks that they right and the rest of the world is not only wrong, but deserves to be punished for being wrong. It would be great if we could get rid of all derogatory ideals based on personal belief systems that not everyone shares...