Is this strategy Legit?

Is this strategy Legit?

Investor · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2016 · 30 posts · 11 votes

Hey guys, I want to apologize if a similar strategy has ever been discussed, I've been a floater on the forums for a long time now and haven't seen anything like this, so I decided to actually post for the first time.  Even if this question has been asked before, I think my story is unique enough to be entertaining at least.

About three years ago I was approached by an investor who had done 4-5 deals, all long term holds, I'll call him Mike to protect his identity.  He and I became quasi-friends over time and I actually looked to him as a mentor. He introduced me to real estate investing by telling about his rentals and how he got into it.  He never offered to take any money from me or point me to any specific properties, he only recommended books for me to read and answered general questions for me.  I decided to make the leap into real estate largely thanks to his teachings and bought several properties on my own.   Again, my deals were not linked to him in anyway (you'll see why I'm putting emphasis on this later).

Two years went by and out of the blue he invited me to go to Vegas with him.  It actually lined up with a bachelor party the few days before so I agreed.  Looking back and telling the story now, it sounds like an episode of "American Greed."  He paid for everything, the flight, the food, the hotel and even gave me an apple watch when I showed up.  Then he told me the reason I was there was not just to drink and gamble with him but actually to meet his partner.  I had heard of his unnamed partner several times before, but all I knew was that he was a deca-millionaire and Mike's mentor who owned a lot of real estate.  I showed up to this arranged meeting wearing a suit, and I'm glad I did because they were wearing custom $2K suits in this low lit bar.  At first it was an intense interview of me, and then we ate dinner and I was told to go back up to the hotel room or go back to the gambling floor while they talked.  Later I got a text to return and when I came back things were more relaxed, they said they had discussed it and that I was "in."    So that's when they started telling me their plan, and why I'm here asking if this is legit, because it sounds crazy.

Their plan was to tag team a property, each with our own LLC's. The first guy's LLC would find a great deal, high rent possibility, low price, good area etc. He would buy the property at low cost (preferably at auction) with 20% cash down.

For illustration purposes say its a $100K property, guy #1 finds and buys the property putting down $20K and borrowing the other $80K from a bank. 

Guy #1 would renovate/repair if necessary and put a renter in there with as high rent as possible then put it on the market. Guy #2's LLC would come in and put in an offer at as high valuation as possible, whatever his bank's appraiser would allow. (funny how appraiser's price matches the offer isn't it?)

Illustration: Guy #2 offers $200K.  Guy #2's bank approves with 20% cash down.  Guy #2 pays $40K his bank pays $160K.  The rent is covering the mortgage. 

So now Guy #1 is getting paid $200K, pays off his $80K mortgage and now has $120K cash free and clear. Guy #1 pays Guy #2's LLC $40K after closing and so now Guy #1 has $80K profit, and Guy #2 has a solid cash flowing property for 0 money down.

Guy #3 has spent the whole time saving up his own $20K down payment to buy another property and repeat the process, except that now Guy #1 has the funds to come in and buy Guy #3's property 20% cash down.

Rinse and repeat until all 3 guys have cash flowing properties and a solid $40K in their bank accounts. Then restart the cycle again and again until each guy has 5 cash flowing properties worth $1million and $200K cash, 100% OPM (because the banks shoulder it). At that point stage 2 would commence where we form a trust combining the 3 LLC's (now 15 properties total, book value $3 Million). The trust can do other things such as leverage their portfolio or even REIT and IPO.

My obvious question was how do you transfer large sums of cash between the LLC's? Their plan was to let the process take place over several years and via several methods. The 10K cash/year "gift" rule, employing the other LLC's services for repairs and renovation, and other means of which lowering the tax burden as much as possible, but still being legal.

I thought about it a lot, and risks were that I end up buying a dump at the higher valuation and they cut fence and run without giving me "back" my down payment. But they assured me that, 1) why would they "run" from a machine that is working and generating cash over and over again, and 2) every property would be considered and approved by the group before being put in rotation, so we would each agree that it is worth the higher valuation before giving the go ahead to move forward and so the worst case scenario is that I would be left with the deed to a cash flowing property.

Help me out here, what do you guys think?

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Real Estate Investor · Encinitas, CA · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
9y
Samuel Riehn Legality aside, there are a couple of easy flaws. You (the buyer) can't choose your appraiser. In many cases the loan agent is required to choose the appraiser blind (just based on their bid or through a rotation). If you borrower is colluding with a lender who is colluding with an appraiser, that's...well...collusion. Believe me, if that's going on there's a kickback cost in there someone. The practical issue (not legal) is at the end of it you do not have 5 properties worth $1M. You have fraudulently appraised properties worth a lot less. And if you think that will fly in an IPO with a Big 4 auditor looking at the books, asset value, etc. you're out of your mind. This entire strategy seems contingent on buying a property for $100K that's worth $200K after minimal renovations. If it's that easy to the math yourself: STEP 1: Buy property 1 for $20K cash, minimal renovations, sell for $200K, pocket $100K (I know, I know, taxes and realtor fees hurt you) so let's say $80K. STEP 2: Use the $80K to buy 3 more 20% down properties using the $20K balance for renovations. Sell for $600K and pocket $520K, let's call it $420K after taxes. STEP 3: Even if I'm off by $100K I've just turned $20K into $320K with zero crazy strategies. If it works and the appraisals are legitimate why on earth go through all of the issues of setting up LLCs and do the money transfers. I could be missing a bunch of steps but it sounds a fun mix of collusion and fraud on it's outset.
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  • Investor · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2016 · 30 posts · 11 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Joshua Howaniec:

    I should just leave it at that last post an shut-up but somethings eating at me...

    I read all your comments on this thread and you don't sound like a dumb guy. You don't strike me as a guy to be taken. So I'm a little curious as to why you were almost seduced into this, could have something to do with your dad's condition or your own circumstances. Either way, I'm not writing to reprimand you but rather to point out that you clearly have the intelligence to make REI work for you in a good honest style.

    Use some creativity and you can work your way out of all this mess. 

    Good luck

    Hey Joshua, I appreciate the question actually.  Had me thinking all night, "you know, he's right. How did you almost fall for this?"  I think the best answer is several factors.  #1 I did have a level of trust with Mike over the course of several years, we both serve in the military together and without giving away too much about him, he's in a position of authority, not over me, but still high. He is much older than me, and has watched my back in the military, helping me in many ways. So I guess I never questioned if I could trust him, why wouldn't I? He was my mentor after all.  #2, realize that when I tell the story on here that it is after several months, and I have replayed the scene in my head many times, mulling over the details, thinking about it for a long time before I put pen to paper.  In the moment, things were not as clearly red flags as I am able to tell them now. 

     Also, keep in mind I still have never paid a dime, and they haven't tried to push me or even talk about it since.  We continue to work together, and it has never come up.  The strategy had many legitimate elements to it.  Bits and pieces of good business models strewn together, if you will.  So only in hindsight is it so blatantly bad.  I'm not even certain they intended it to be a scam, they may have just had an idea, and brought me in its infancy, only to realize that it needs a lot of work to be legit, and perhaps even legal.

    I do continue to invest in real estate, not with these guys, but on my own.  Always looking for creative ways to increase my trajectory.    I'm thankful for everyone's inputs and discussions.

  • Bronx, NY · Member since 2015 · 2 posts · 1 vote
    9y

    Turn and run away as far and as fast as you can.

  • Investor · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2016 · 30 posts · 11 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Tyler Jones:

    @Samuel Riehn the "exclusivity" of this arrangement is what tips the scales before they even explain the triple buyer BS.  Madoff's fund was members only to leverage the same perception of joining an elite investors circle.  It sounds like you were a mark in Mike's mind from the beginning...and he used a slow roast tactic to gain trust.  I'd be curious as to under what circumstances you met...and if that meeting was possibly no coincidence.  Hindsight is always 20/20.

    Exactly. If this was a planned scam, it was impressively played out.  It literally took years to culminate.

    We are both military, and I met him when I arrived on station.  They could have been targeting the next fresh lieutenant to show up, bright eyed and looking for guidance, but again I don't even know if the intentions were sinister.  It could very well be that they came up with this plan, thinking it was brilliant and were just stupid, not evil. 

  • Investor · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2016 · 30 posts · 11 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Michael Bracken:

    Have you done a simple Bing search? How about a publicdata.com criminal history check. Find them online. Do some public record snooping. A Deca Millionaire will have a public profile so will a fraudster.

    The deca millionaire is who he says he is, and they are both military so finding information on them was easy for me. They both check out, clean as a whistle.  I will be avoiding this situation, but I don't think they truly intended to flat out scam. They just had a loosely developed plan.  In an attempt to be innovative, they unwittingly stepped into illegal territory sounds like.

  • Investor · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2016 · 30 posts · 11 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Sam Grooms:
    Originally posted by @Samuel Riehn:

    @Jassem A.

    I was actually looking to try it out with my Father. He is on the edge of retirement age and just had a brain aneurysm that will likely force him into retirement. He owns 2 homes, one is under construction that probably needs $60K to finish, he has taken HELOC's out on his primary residence throughout his life to maintain liquidity in his company, so even though he's been in the home I grew up in for 26 years he still owes 130K. I had an appraiser come out and said that it was worth 200K. If I bought his home for full retail, and had him pay me low rent for the rest of his life, I can write off the losses and he will pay for my down payment thru annual $10K tax-free gifts. He would have 70K to finish construction on his second home which he can sell free and clear for easily 180K. That, along with the sale of his business assets, would be his retirement.

    Meanwhile I own a $200K home that I paid no money down on, and I'm taking several hundred dollar loss on rent per month, but I'm taking care of my dad.  Plus, I wont have to pay for property management or anything to maintain the home because he always has and will still do repairs himself.   

    Highly unlikely you'd be able to take a loss when renting to a family member. There are special tax rules when renting to family members. A big one states that any days the home is rented to a family member at less than fair rental value are considered personal days. This would prevent you from taking any of the normal tax deductions for the rental property. However, all of the income you received from less than fair market value rent, would still be taxed. You'd probably end up with a book loss in the end, but not a tax loss. 

    Note that while I'm a CPA, this is just my understanding of the tax laws, and I am not a tax CPA. 

    That is interesting, Sam.  Thanks for that! I really had not dug into it much yet, but that is good to know. I'm not an expert in that arena, and I hadn't thought of that. I'll be sure to run it by my accountant and attorney before I do anything.

  • Investor · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2016 · 30 posts · 11 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @William C.:

    This only issue I see is the closing costs that you pay transferring the property outweigh any "gain" you'll make by selling instead of just doing a cash out refi. In fact, as an agent iv seen cases where a home would not sell for $250k on the open market in a hot market but the sellers refied and it appraised for $280k. So I just don't see enough meat
    On the bone by going this route. Just simply find a good deal, rehab, rent, refi and repeat. Lastly the underwriting that will go into getting the LLC these inflated loans might work once or twice but they'll soon catch onto who the buyer and seller are on each of these deals and shut it down. I think your over complicating the BRRR strategy, a proven method of investing. And of course, capital usually being the biggest thing holding most investors back, it sounds like your deca-millionaire friend may not be a what he says he is. Otherwise why go through all this trouble to pull a few thousand more out of each property, which like I said will be negated by transfer taxes and Closing costs. Just my 2 cents though.

    Hey William, thanks for the reply. You're sorta pointing out why this strategy appeals to me though. With BRRRR method, like you described, if I cash out refi for $280K, I now own a home that is upside down if it wont sell for more than 250 in the open market. That's terrifying to me. I know you have the cash pulled out to put into other investments and keep a reserve, but that's easily where BRRRR can get you in trouble and turn into a domino effect. To me, I'd rather not leverage to the hilt, and instead sell the property to get cash out. In your example, if the open market had a price of $250 on my property and someone came in offering 280K, (assuming the appraiser would allow it, which they often do without being "in the know") of course I would take it. Coincidentally, property in my area may appreciate a little too, simply because of my sale (if I had enough of them to skew the comps). This is what they were offering, and the risk transfers to the buyer who then gets compensated for it with the return of their down payment.

  • Rental Property Investor · Dallas, TX · Member since 2015 · 503 posts · 504 votes
    9y

    So it's been a year now, and you still keep in touch with the guy? Did they go ahead and do it without you? Please post updates. It was a wise move to stay away, but I am curious how it all turns out. 

  • Real Estate Agent · Souderton, PA · Member since 2016 · 591 posts · 414 votes
    9y
    But your not actually "selling" the property if a shill LLC was coming in and buying it from you, right? The plan would be to continue the plan until each of you own a few properties. The properties you would end up with would be financed to the gill.....My point is that your isn't at all different from BRRRing, except for maybe being able to get a little higher LTV on a purchase rather than cash out refi. Why not just try this plan and refi Than sell? Maybe I'm missing something. As I read it, Guy 3 would buy the property for a price at or above market value, and have a loan out for that amount minus down payment.
  • Investor · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2016 · 30 posts · 11 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Paul B.:

    So it's been a year now, and you still keep in touch with the guy? Did they go ahead and do it without you? Please post updates. It was a wise move to stay away, but I am curious how it all turns out. 

    I do stay in touch with them.  We each have done our own deals since then, unrelated to each other, and just talk about our individual moves and plans for the future.  Typical real estate colleague stuff.  As far as I know they have not tried to move forward with the "rotation" plan.  Glad that I opened the discussion here, so if in the future they try to start it up again I can shut it down.  The way I see it, we are still friends, no money has changed hands and never will.  So no reason to burn bridges.

  • Real Estate Agent · Souderton, PA · Member since 2016 · 591 posts · 414 votes
    9y
    Also the point I was trying to make with the example of the property that would not sell for $250k but appraised for $280k was that when you refi a property the appraiser uses comps to find a value. The comps might support a higher value than buyers are actually willing to pay. The appraiser doesn't have a contract to use as a starting point, or More accurately an ending point. The point I was trying to make was that by doing the BRRR you might actually get a higher appraisal than the market would actually yield, and you could pull more cash out. The whole goal of this plan was to cash out as much equity from each property as possible, right? If that wasn't the goal, what was?
  • Investor · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2016 · 30 posts · 11 votes
    9y

    @William C.

    I see your point.  But in their plan, wouldn't Guy #1 have 20% equity AND 20% of the property's value in cash. As opposed to 0 equity and 20% of the property in cash thanks to a refi.  The goal would still be to purchase a property every year, except each property would have 80/20 debt to equity at purchase.  Its a minor shift in thinking, that could still probably be accomplished using my own money, but it would require me to live on beans and rice to save up 20% down on 5 properties in 5 years.

    I know its still apples to apples because of the "inflated" value of the rental properties and the "inflated" value of the home under refi. 

    Except in their plan if stuff hit the fan I might be able to sell at a 10-20% discount to my purchase price and still break even.  As opposed to taking a haircut selling an underwater refi'd property.  

  • Investor · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2016 · 30 posts · 11 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @William C.:

    Also the point I was trying to make with the example of the property that would not sell for $250k but appraised for $280k was that when you refi a property the appraiser uses comps to find a value. The comps might support a higher value than buyers are actually willing to pay. The appraiser doesn't have a contract to use as a starting point, or More accurately an ending point. The point I was trying to make was that by doing the BRRR you might actually get a higher appraisal than the market would actually yield, and you could pull more cash out. The whole goal of this plan was to cash out as much equity from each property as possible, right? If that wasn't the goal, what was?

    But the other LLC would pay the higher appraisal price. That's the point. They would submit an offer of say 300K, and when the appraiser says, no its only worth 280K they say ok offer is 280K then. The seller is still winning over the $250 market price.

  • Investor · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2010 · 739 posts · 372 votes
    9y

    @Samuel Riehn unless they are paying for BS appraisals (in which these appraisers will lose their licenses), this is the most bizarre strategy I've ever heard of.

    Why wouldn't they just use hard money to purchase the properties as deep discounts, renovate them, and then use a cash out refi lender to pay them back?

    I'm confused

  • Investor · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2016 · 30 posts · 11 votes
    9y

    @Chris Purcell, why would the appraiser have to give a BS appraisal?  The other 2 guys would want a close to market valuation, based on comps and rental income.  But is it absurd to think the appraisal could be slightly higher than what the open market is willing to pay?   Not at all.  If a home goes on the market for $180, because it appraises for $180, buyers can only offer $180.  But most consumer buyers are looking to get a deal. So they offer 5,6 or 7K lower, whatever they pull out of their crystal ball.  Occasionally there is a bidding war that pushes the price above market, but that would favor this strategy because the buyer would offer as high as the bank allows.  Otherwise the seller sells to the highest bidder.  

  • Investor · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2010 · 739 posts · 372 votes
    9y

    @Samuel Riehn - there are much easier ways to do what they are trying to achieve.  And these guys are clowns sending you to Vegas, giving you apple watches, telling you that you're a "made man".

    My $0.02.

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