3500$ to update a washroom...SERIOUSLY?
Investor · Aurora, Ontario · Member since 2014 · 48 posts · 2 votes
3500$ to update a washroom...SERIOUSLY?
Most Popular Reply
Nick NoonPro Member
Chelmsford, MA · Member since 2015 · 124 posts · 70 votesI have done construction my whole life and I also work for a company that does $300M in work a year, and you basically should break it down in the simplest forms you can. For example, I will get change orders from my subs ranging from 3k to 150k that I have to break down and make sense of before I submit them to the owner and look like a fool if it's way too high. Here is what I usually do (keep in mind I run Union work in Boston so these numbers might seem crazy if you not used to the market):
STEP ONE: "The Giggle Check"
I break everything down into square foot(sf)/lineal foot(lf), or even "per fixture" or "per piece" price. I know what I've paid on previous jobs and and I know what other people have paid on other jobs. For example, I know on most jobs I pay the roofer around $400/square for TPO. So I compare that to my current price I'm getting and if it's within reason it passes the giggle check and I further analyze. If it works out to $1,200/square, I know somethings wrong and it doesn't pass the giggle check.
STEP TWO: "Build the Job in Your Head"
Take a second and actually build the work in your head and write it down. For example, if a plumber is sending me a contract or a change order and I added in a sink and toilet to an existing property. I'll say to myself, "so it will be one foreman with a journeyman as a helper. They need to shut the water off and drain the lines. Then cut and solder all the new lines in room and rough plumb it. Then install the plumbing finishes (toilet/sink) and make sure they work. 2 guys * 2 days = 16 man hours. Plumbers are running $120/hr so that equals $1,920 for the labor....add in the toilet and sink at a $1,000 a piece (round numbers) and we get $3,920. So right there I've built the entire job in my head and was able to take the fixed costs (fixture costs and labor costs) and come up with a pretty close number to what the job should cost. So if he's charging me $7,000, I know he's trying to pull one over.
STEP THREE: "Negotiate"
Now this takes some fine tuning without insulting them, but I usually have pretty good relationships with my subs so I can be pretty candid. But as a starting out, always ask them...so whats the main factor driving the cost? Never mind the $30 or whatever for the copper elbows...get to the brass tax. What is driving this cost? This is when they'll be glad to tell you something like, "well, I have to squeeze myself into the crawl space and lean over a couple beams and try and solder the pipe together...it's not an ideal situation and it's going to take a while". Boom, now you're seeing it from the pro's eyes. Now, let's not forget you have already built the job in your head so you have an idea of what it should cost. So now that you have the main factor for driving the price, maybe you add a little fluff into you're number after he explains some of the inefficiencies or whatever, but you are now able to have a conversation about the work and walk through the scope with him. So you say something like, "Well I was figuring it would take a day to rough it and then you'd come back the next to do the finishes". He may agree, or he may say, hey well it's going to take me 'x' to do this and 'y' to do that, but you are starting to get all the puzzle pieces. From there, he is either going to see your side and come your way a little or he'll stay firm. Tell him, "But I heard you were the best! You can knock this out in a couple days". hahah. whatever negotiating scheme you'd like to use. Keep it civil and light is my policy.
@Jamie Montpellier as you can see. There are so many fixed costs that you can get your hands on that you should be able to come up with a price that's close to what the job should cost. Arm yourself with knowledge and talk the sub into why he should be in and out in there in a day. Maybe there is something YOU can do for FREE that makes his job go faster and smoother!
Sorry...didn't mean for this to be so long.
27 Replies
- Contractor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2008 · 978 posts · 985 votes11y
The last 5x9 bathroom we renovated topped $20,000...
For a reputable contractor pulling necessary permits, carrying necessary insurance, working with licensed subs, I don't think that's out of line for a full bath reno with tile floor, shower surround, and new fixtures.
Also, it won't be 3 or 4 days. Figure a week or two especially if you're doing any kind of custom countertop.
- Coppell, TX · Member since 2014 · 188 posts · 125 votes11y
Sub-flooring adds to the cost. Vanities run $1,200 and up mostly with natural stone top/sink. Depends on the quality/type of materials used in your washroom as to the overall price you'd expect. Is this a 2 or 3 piece washroom?
Ripping out as you said (demo) would save you probably $300 - $500 in labor plus the cost of dumpster if you need one. Painting is usually $1.25 per sq.ft. so depending on your washroom size, this could be some good savings too if you do the work.
I assume all materials including paint are included in the quote. So if you're doing the painting and get the paint, that's $50 - $100 savings also.
- 11yJay HinrichsBusiness MemberReal Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
quick back of napkin I always use is 3500 to 5k for baths... 10 to 15k for kitchens
those are gut and replace numbers... this is usually half or so of a rehab.
- 11yDawn AnastasiPro MemberRental Property Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2013 · 6k+ posts · 4k+ votes
If you're doing a high end bathroom ... this would be in the ballpark.
For a normal B/C rental, this is way too high.
- Flipper/Rehabber · Greeley, CO · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes11y
Originally posted by @Jamie Montpellier:
Hi guys,
I'm looking to update a washroom in one of my rental units.
I need :
1) New flooring (probably a ceramic tile) with sub flooring
2) New vanity and sink
3) Mirror and some paint
I've called a few places and the quotes I'm getting to contract this work out seems on the high side but I have never done a rehab or rénovations. I could rip out the existing flooring and the old vanity and take care of painting.
I received the following quotes:
3000 - 3500$ dollars over 3-4 days for the work to be completed.
Thoughts!?
Jamie
lot depends on the quality and the house. On most of my flips and rentals I will get a sink/vanity combo from lowes for $200 to $300 max. Mirror $50. Flooring would be $200 in materials plus labor for everything. I would think you could get it done for $2,500 or less. You may have to pick out the vanity and flooring for the contractor
- 11yCurtis BidwellPro MemberRental Property Investor · Olympia, WA · Member since 2014 · 777 posts · 744 votes
@Jamie Montpellier I see you are north of the border and that is now costing you about 25% more just due to the exchange. So now we're looking at $2200-2600 U.S. which isn't bad at all.
If you can pull the toilet and cabinet, I'd go to your local floor supplier and get a bid for just the floor. Paint the room, then get bids on installing your vanity and sink. Basically you are the GC. These aren't huge issues when broken down individually.
- Real Estate Agent · Southington, CT · Member since 2008 · 5k+ posts · 3k+ votes11y
Good point @Curtis Bidwell
- 11yNick NoonPro MemberChelmsford, MA · Member since 2015 · 124 posts · 70 votes
I have done construction my whole life and I also work for a company that does $300M in work a year, and you basically should break it down in the simplest forms you can. For example, I will get change orders from my subs ranging from 3k to 150k that I have to break down and make sense of before I submit them to the owner and look like a fool if it's way too high. Here is what I usually do (keep in mind I run Union work in Boston so these numbers might seem crazy if you not used to the market):
STEP ONE: "The Giggle Check"
I break everything down into square foot(sf)/lineal foot(lf), or even "per fixture" or "per piece" price. I know what I've paid on previous jobs and and I know what other people have paid on other jobs. For example, I know on most jobs I pay the roofer around $400/square for TPO. So I compare that to my current price I'm getting and if it's within reason it passes the giggle check and I further analyze. If it works out to $1,200/square, I know somethings wrong and it doesn't pass the giggle check.
STEP TWO: "Build the Job in Your Head"
Take a second and actually build the work in your head and write it down. For example, if a plumber is sending me a contract or a change order and I added in a sink and toilet to an existing property. I'll say to myself, "so it will be one foreman with a journeyman as a helper. They need to shut the water off and drain the lines. Then cut and solder all the new lines in room and rough plumb it. Then install the plumbing finishes (toilet/sink) and make sure they work. 2 guys * 2 days = 16 man hours. Plumbers are running $120/hr so that equals $1,920 for the labor....add in the toilet and sink at a $1,000 a piece (round numbers) and we get $3,920. So right there I've built the entire job in my head and was able to take the fixed costs (fixture costs and labor costs) and come up with a pretty close number to what the job should cost. So if he's charging me $7,000, I know he's trying to pull one over.
STEP THREE: "Negotiate"
Now this takes some fine tuning without insulting them, but I usually have pretty good relationships with my subs so I can be pretty candid. But as a starting out, always ask them...so whats the main factor driving the cost? Never mind the $30 or whatever for the copper elbows...get to the brass tax. What is driving this cost? This is when they'll be glad to tell you something like, "well, I have to squeeze myself into the crawl space and lean over a couple beams and try and solder the pipe together...it's not an ideal situation and it's going to take a while". Boom, now you're seeing it from the pro's eyes. Now, let's not forget you have already built the job in your head so you have an idea of what it should cost. So now that you have the main factor for driving the price, maybe you add a little fluff into you're number after he explains some of the inefficiencies or whatever, but you are now able to have a conversation about the work and walk through the scope with him. So you say something like, "Well I was figuring it would take a day to rough it and then you'd come back the next to do the finishes". He may agree, or he may say, hey well it's going to take me 'x' to do this and 'y' to do that, but you are starting to get all the puzzle pieces. From there, he is either going to see your side and come your way a little or he'll stay firm. Tell him, "But I heard you were the best! You can knock this out in a couple days". hahah. whatever negotiating scheme you'd like to use. Keep it civil and light is my policy.
@Jamie Montpellier as you can see. There are so many fixed costs that you can get your hands on that you should be able to come up with a price that's close to what the job should cost. Arm yourself with knowledge and talk the sub into why he should be in and out in there in a day. Maybe there is something YOU can do for FREE that makes his job go faster and smoother!
Sorry...didn't mean for this to be so long.
- Real Estate Investor · Rossville, GA · Member since 2014 · 218 posts · 96 votes11y
Originally posted by @Mark Ferguson:
lot depends on the quality and the house. On most of my flips and rentals I will get a sink/vanity combo from lowes for $200 to $300 max. Mirror $50. Flooring would be $200 in materials plus labor for everything. I would think you could get it done for $2,500 or less. You may have to pick out the vanity and flooring for the contractor
I'm with Mark on the materials end of the project. A lot depends on the tile you pick out. 36" vanity with top at lowes $179. 2 sheets of subflooring $50. 4 sheets of backerboard with thinset $70. Tile as low as $.69 per foot...less than $100 including grout. Tile labor is $3 a foot in my area but they may have a minimum. Re-use your baseboard. The big expense may be figuring for unforeseen problems when the subfloor is removed. $2500 should do it but labor and materials may be a bit higher in your area.
- Contractor · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2014 · 885 posts · 359 votes11y
There are some key pieces of information missing in your description of the bathroom ... what's the square footage? what kind of materials are being used? it's difficult to make decisions about how reasonable the cost is without all the details.
- Investor/Accountant/Builder · Meno, OK · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 918 votes11y
Remove old junk tile/ shower/tub area
repair and install new plumbing for new tub
Install new tub and retile the surround
New tile flooring
At least $2500 with no painting, or vanity, or toilet. or profit. I am my own GC
Everything is high.
- Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes11y
Originally posted by @Jamie Montpellier:
1) New flooring (probably a ceramic tile) with sub flooring2) New vanity and sink
3) Mirror and some paint
I have absolutely no idea what prices are in your area, so take this for what it's worth (potentially very little)...
In some average- to more-expensive-than-average areas I work in, here's how I would expect this to break down (using mid-grade finishes and conservative labor prices):
1. $6/sf for tile labor, $2/sf for tile, $1/sf for subfloor labor, $1/sf for subfloor material -- so about $10/sf for the floor
2. $200 for vanity, $50 for sink, $50 for faucet, $100 for carpentry, $100 for plumbing -- so about $500 for vanity/sink/faucet
3. $50 for mirror, $50 for paint, $400 for painting labor -- so about $500 for mirror and paint
So, for a 100 sf bathroom, I would expect no more than $2000 (and in most areas, I'd pay a good bit less than that). If you add in 15-20% for GC overhead, you might get to $2300-2400.
- Rental Property Investor · Manteno, IL · Member since 2009 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes11y
First off. What exactly do you need a GC for here? And what do you need to pull permits for exactly? Replacing the sink maybe? Honestly, if I'm replacing a vanity, I'm not pulling a permit. Some villages may require it but, to me, thats just ridiculous. If that is really needed, then every blankety blank faucet fixture that gets sold at menards/lowes, etc should require you to show your permits. Because if you're buying a new one, that means you're disconnecting the old and reconnecting the new. Its the only way that happens. That being said, go ahead and pull a permit for the plumber to reconnect the faucets and reset the toilet. Fine.
$50 for a permit. $100 labor to reset the toilet. $100 to 150 labor for the faucet fixtures.
$100 for the new faucets (i'm assuming you're doing new faucets with the vanity.
$400 total (without the permit, you'd be at about $100 btw).1) New flooring. $75 to rip out old flooring.
Then $2/sq ft to install durock. $2 to $3/sq ft to install tile. Tile is $3.00/sq ft?
So $8/sq ft x 40 sq ft???? So $320 for the floors.....1) New flooring (probably a ceramic tile) with sub flooring. I'm assuming you already have a subfloor, but you mean durock (cement board). :-)
2) New vanity and sink
Nice stock 32 incher that comes with a granite top. $350.3) Mirror and some paint
Mirror $75 from lowes.
Paint. $100 for the room. If you can't get a bathroom painted for less than $100 when the toilet and vanity are out, something is wrong. If there's prep work on the drywall, thats a different story. Then maybe $150 to $200 depending on what they're fixing.Still $250 for mirror and paint? $300 tops.
I'm at about about $1,400 TOPS and thats actually pushing it.
I have no clue how any contractor can be at 3,500. Not unless you're spending 1k on the vanity and buying $10/sq ft tile or something ridiculous.
And while it may take 3 or 4 days total because of the tile sequencing (i.e. tile day one, grout day 2, etc). Its not actually going to take 3 or 4 full days to do that bathroom. One guy should be able to knock that out in 2 to 3 days of work tops. Painting a bathroom should take 2 hours tops. Maybe 3 with prep work.I would get the contractor to give you a line item breakdown and then see what craziness they're into.
Bottom line is that the type of work you're describing is not $75/hr work. Its $30/hr work tops. Just gotta find a contractor that has more reasonable pricing.
- Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes11y
Well I do not perform any of these tasks. When I had apartments constant updates were needed.
Unless you are getting closed out or dinged out models the cost of materials in an local area is pretty much the same from the discount stores. Not huge savings there most of the time. Really the biggest component costs is labor and time. What quality can you get for what you want to pay and how fast can it be done is the name of the game.
If it is a big company they have overhead to pay for and it will show in premium pricing. You need to talk to other local investors and get investor trades that do things for volume pricing. Be prepared if you go that route for them not be at your beck and call. Rent ready and sale ready rehabs are very different. Unless your tenant is very high end for the rental market then you need items that take abuse and are durable for a long time.
Also at play is if the contractor specializes in redoing bathrooms etc. If for instance they are used to doing much larger jobs then they quote you retail as they do not want the business anyways. If you choose them then great it is a nice little pop to them but if not they would rather be working their larger jobs anyways.
So does the person specialize in what you want to do all the time and the job size you are offering?? If it's in their wheelhouse likely you will hit closer to the number you want the job performed for and the timeline you desire.
- Commercial Real Estate Broker · Boston, MA · Member since 2013 · 18 posts · 4 votes11y
At my current flip I got the vanity we are instaled at Ikea and built it myself, the sink at home depot and the mirror at home goods aprox. $350 all in. Painted ourselves $50. Kohller hands free toilet $260. Plus labor and tiles it was all done for $1200. It looks good and will add value to the house on sale.
- Investor · Aurora, Ontario · Member since 2014 · 48 posts · 2 votes11y
@Mike H. thanks for the thorough breakdown of costs.
We had come up with something similar in material costs 1200-1500$ and we were trying to figure out how he was justifying a 2000$ price tag for the labour considering this is a small washroom and we aren't seeking high end material.
Back to the drawing board.
- Investor · Aurora, Ontario · Member since 2014 · 48 posts · 2 votes11y
Hi Mark,
Thanks for the input. Have you ever used HDepot or. Lowes to contract out your renos? Do you prefer finding an independent contractor with a good reputation?
Cheers,
Jamie
P.s. Love the wheels...ever consider a Porsche Classic convertible 911 or do Ferraris come in the 150k price range?
- Investor · Aurora, Ontario · Member since 2014 · 48 posts · 2 votes11y
@Gary Cook you think two weeks?
Day 1 - remove old flooring, vanity, and toilet plus clean up
Day 2 - install sub floor, measure out and apply mortar and tiles
Day 3 - apply grout
Day 4 - seal flooring and clean tiles
Day 5 - install vanity and sink and toilet
Day 6 - patch and paint walls
Day 7 - baseboard and mirror
What am I missing ?
Thanks
- Flipper/Rehabber · Greeley, CO · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes11y
Originally posted by @Jamie Montpellier:
Hi Mark,
Thanks for the input. Have you ever used HDepot or. Lowes to contract out your renos? Do you prefer finding an independent contractor with a good reputation?
Cheers,
Jamie
P.s. Love the wheels...ever consider a Porsche Classic convertible 911 or do Ferraris come in the 150k price range?
Thank you! I like the 911s and some ferraris, but I like my Lambo a lot more. :)
- Landlord · lees summit, MO · Member since 2012 · 14 posts · 2 votes11y
hey Jamie, I've done more than 100 of these and if its a small rehab for rental $2,500 to $3,000 sounds like plenty of budget to do a nice bath and definitely should take more than a week. I did a resource guide to help real estate investor rehab more effectively, before and after photos, you can download for free [Link to Self-Promotion Removed by Mod], I spend approx $2000 to do this one and I included the the Lowe's SKU's I used. Hope it helps, contact me if I can help in any way.
- Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes11y
Originally posted by @Gary Cook:
I'm a contractor and I won't even charge that much. So far everyone is bout in the same ballpark but your expecting time to finish is way off. It takes 2 days for tile alone. Try 2weeks
Two weeks? That's 10-15% of the time it takes to build a house from scratch!
The tile work would be two days (day 1 demo, subfloor, tile; day 2 grout), the vanity and plumbing would be a half day and the painting would be a half day. Worst case, four days. More likely three...
If your contractors are slow and you aren't good at scheduling, perhaps a week at the longest...
- Georgetown, KY · Member since 2014 · 179 posts · 55 votes11yI have been buying supplies at a discount warehouse that gets scratch and dent items from Home Depot. I use guys at 10/hour and the prices I paid were 100 for a toilet, 140 for vinyl flooring, sink and vanity 150, shower surround 70, faucet 25, etc. I estimate under 800 for that bathroom. We did a 1700 sq ft house for ~17k
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