Electrician · Bothell, WA · Member since 2014 · 241 posts · 96 votes
I've been an electrician in Washington (the real one..) for 10 years, residential, commercial, and industrial. I've learned a ton from BP so this is me trying to give back with knowledge of something I know very well. Hit me up anytime.. even if you're reading this a year from now..
Sometimes I look at older homes that have old break boxes or have brands that are known to be bad. I ask my electrician about changing out the breaker box and he gives me a price. That part I get. Then he talks about changing out the service as well. What all does changing out the service include?
it means everything from the riser, the rain head, the cam, the meter, the wire from the meter to the pane..
look at this pic... it's from the "weatherproof fittings" to the "Service wire holder".
Ten lights when out due to a short. Two electricians spent 4 hours trying to figure out the source. The lights worked for a bit but they were unable to pin point the exact cause. After they left all ten lights went out again and a ceiling fan as well. The breaker keeps tripping. We replaced the Federal Pacific circuit breaker several months ago. To fix the problem the electrician said it will need to be rewired and cost about $2,000.
We appreciate your helpful suggestions thank you.
Greg
This is a tough one. This is the type of problem that separates the good electricians from the mediocre ones. Troubleshooting can be a very time consuming thing, especially for an electrician not well versed in it.
Is it the whole circuit or just part of one? It's possible the circuit is being overloaded and that's why it's tripping. Try taking some of the light bulbs out and see if that helps anything. A competent electrician would have put a load meter of that breaker and checked the draw. If the circuit is not overloaded then you may have to have it rewired.
Did this happen out of the blue or was there something recently changed?
Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2014 · 2 posts · 0 votes
11y
I am assuming it's the whole circuit but I'm not sure. The 10 lights that went out are in the hallway, closet, master bedroom and bathroom. However, two lights remained on, one in the master bedroom and one in the bathroom. The circuit breaker box has 20 circuit switches and there were 10 lights not working on this one circuit. The electrician took all the bulbs out when he was here and addressed each light and switch individually and he could have used a load meter but I'm unfamiliar with it. Yes, this did happen out of the blue. Nothing new electronically was installed.
We found a 240v feed to a wall heater with blower, (fed through a double pole thermostat), that also feeds a 240v window a/c that is wired behind the heater inside the wall. At least there is a GFCI circuit breaker at the panel.
During the summer the double pole thermostat is then flipped to the max temperature to trigger the feed but the wall heater is turned off at the heater so the feed is now only live to the a/c unit.
Access to do a separate feed to the a/c is not possible without tearing out walls.
It's an interesting concept do you have any Suggestions???
That's something I haven't heard before. In theory it works as long as things cant be locked on or locked off, but obviously it's not compliant with modern wiring standards. Good electricians can sometimes get wires to their destination with minimal wall damage. Conduit on the exterior is sometimes a possibility as well.
Rental Property Investor · Douglas County, MO · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
10y
We are buying a house built in 1950 for a rental. I'd prefer to have all modern wiring in the house, of course, but I really don't want to rewire if I don't have to. How important is it to have 3 prong outlets available in the bedrooms?
Kitchen and baths have new wiring with GFCI outlets, and one of 2 circuits in the living room is grounded. All the outlets in the bedrooms are 2 prong.
We are buying a house built in 1950 for a rental. I'd prefer to have all modern wiring in the house, of course, but I really don't want to rewire if I don't have to. How important is it to have 3 prong outlets available in the bedrooms?
Kitchen and baths have new wiring with GFCI outlets, and one of 2 circuits in the living room is grounded. All the outlets in the bedrooms are 2 prong.
Hi there. This is a pretty common question. There are certainly options that would allow you to keep the current wiring, however once the system has been modified with new wiring like you mentioned I think there's cause for concern. I would ask why only those parts of the system were upgraded, for not much more the whole system could have been replaced. I would also be concerned about junction boxes being used to splice new wires to old.
What age and condition is the electrical panel? That is usually very telling of the overall condition of the electrical system.
Rental Property Investor · Douglas County, MO · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
10y
There are some issues that will definitely have to be taken care of. For example, the dryer is hard-wired! Never seen that before. I have just had a quick look at the panel, to be sure it wasn't a Federal Pacific. (It's Cutler Hammer) We'll do a thorough inspection later, I was just wondering about the outlets.
Electrician · Bothell, WA · Member since 2014 · 241 posts · 96 votes
10y
Federal Pacific is surpassed in unsafe only by Zinsco. I would look into getting the outlets rewired, if the kitchen and bathrooms are done, it shouldn't be a huge expense. Alternatively, you can install GFCIs in all the 2 prong outlet locations, but that cost adds up really fast and some jurisdictions do not consider that a solution. Another question to ask is how much abuse have those outlets have taken, and how much more can they take.
Whatever you do, don't install 3 prong outlets in place of the 2 prong with new wiring.
Investor · Lynn, MA · Member since 2015 · 66 posts · 19 votes
10y
Hi
I would like to learn about residential electricity . Any books you could recommend me by the way I know nothing just want to start doing small things
Thank you
Electrician · Bothell, WA · Member since 2014 · 241 posts · 96 votes
10y
Hmmm. There's the code book, but that covers far more than you'd need, and it's a language itself. Home Depot's book is pretty good, I'd probably say that one. They have an all in one book that is awesome as well.
Hi
I would like to learn about residential electricity . Any books you could recommend me by the way I know nothing just want to start doing small things
Thank you
This is the one I prefer & always use. I just bought the 5th addition to keep up with NEC code. Read it from front to back before you do anything.
New Braunfels, TX · Member since 2016 · 2 posts · 0 votes
10y
Hey. New guy here. I've got a question about a specific gfci reacting with a specific appliance in my kitchen. I have a Keurig coffee maker. Any time I try to plug it into one particular gfci it pops the gfci. If I plug a different appliance, say a toaster, into the same gfci outlet, it works fine. So, I figured it was a problem with the coffee maker.
However, when I plug the Keurig into a different gfci plug on the other side of the kitchen, it does not trip that one. I should mention that I had the Keurig plugged into the original gfci for about 5 months without issue. It just started tripping it about three days ago. Suggestions?
Investor · SSF, CA · Member since 2015 · 127 posts · 24 votes
10y
Loren Thomas , is there a video series that I can just watch and after like 100 hours I gave most of my bases covered in terms of foundational electrical knowledge?
Loren Thomas , is there a video series that I can just watch and after like 100 hours I gave most of my bases covered in terms of foundational electrical knowledge?
I don't think 100 hours is enough to know what needs to be known. Rather than tackle the whole trade at once, why not educate yourself as individual issues come up?
Originally posted by @Brant Eames:
Hey. New guy here. I've got a question about a specific gfci reacting with a specific appliance in my kitchen. I have a Keurig coffee maker. Any time I try to plug it into one particular gfci it pops the gfci. If I plug a different appliance, say a toaster, into the same gfci outlet, it works fine. So, I figured it was a problem with the coffee maker.
However, when I plug the Keurig into a different gfci plug on the other side of the kitchen, it does not trip that one. I should mention that I had the Keurig plugged into the original gfci for about 5 months without issue. It just started tripping it about three days ago. Suggestions?
Could be a faulty GFI if you are plugging it into a different GFI and it works fine. Does it happen intermittently or whenever you try and use it? Typically, a separate GFI in a kitchen implies a different circuit. It's possible that the Keurig, in addition to something else utilizing that circuit at the same time, is too much for the circuit to handle.... at least the GFI thinks so.
Hey. New guy here. I've got a question about a specific gfci reacting with a specific appliance in my kitchen. I have a Keurig coffee maker. Any time I try to plug it into one particular gfci it pops the gfci. If I plug a different appliance, say a toaster, into the same gfci outlet, it works fine. So, I figured it was a problem with the coffee maker.
However, when I plug the Keurig into a different gfci plug on the other side of the kitchen, it does not trip that one. I should mention that I had the Keurig plugged into the original gfci for about 5 months without issue. It just started tripping it about three days ago. Suggestions?
Could be a faulty GFI if you are plugging it into a different GFI and it works fine. Does it happen intermittently or whenever you try and use it? Typically, a separate GFI in a kitchen implies a different circuit. It's possible that the Keurig, in addition to something else utilizing that circuit at the same time, is too much for the circuit to handle.... at least the GFI thinks so.
At first it would trip intermittently. Now, it trips as soon as I plug the Keurig in. Even if it is the only appliance on the circuit. Do you think I should replace the GFI first and see if that does the trick? Thanks for your help!
Electrician · Bothell, WA · Member since 2014 · 241 posts · 96 votes
10y
If everything works fine when it's plugged into another GFI, then yes that's probably what I would do first. It's possible there's a loose connection, maybe take it out of the box and make sure all wire nuts are tight and all wires are landed on screws tightly.
I've been an electrician in Washington (the real one..) for 10 years, residential, commercial, and industrial. I've learned a ton from BP so this is me trying to give back with knowledge of something I know very well. Hit me up anytime.. even if you're reading this a year from now..
Hi Loren, it seems like electricians charge an awful lot for replacing a panel. Am I wrong, or is it over $2,000 in labor for a few hours of work? Is there any way to get this done cheaper?
Electrician · Bothell, WA · Member since 2014 · 241 posts · 96 votes
10y
Hi Nate. In my area even 2k is pretty low. AFCI breakers that are required in most places now are $45 each... that's adds up really fast. Plus permit costs, plus travel time, plus dealing with the utility company, and lastly, hazard pay.
Rental Property Investor · Douglas County, MO · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
10y
I have a curiosity. Normally, an electrical tester will register a hot wire in a switch box whether the switch is in the on or off position. Not so with a switch I encountered today. Here are some photos:
When the switch is off, the bottom wire in the second photo tests hot. When the switch is on, nothing tests hot. The switch works properly, turning the light on and off, so I guess it doesn't really matter, but it puzzles me.
Electrician · Bothell, WA · Member since 2014 · 241 posts · 96 votes
10y
There's a lot of factors in play here. The biggest is that there appears to be no ground, this alone will make lead testers go haywire. Second it's a 3 way switch, which can be wired in a lot of different ways depending on the situation and use. Last, sometimes older systems switch the neutrals instead of hot wires.
PS The flathead screws pictured are satan. Especially the ones that hold the device in place, it makes me cringe thinking of the time I've spent trying to back them out after years of paint or rust or dirt or whatever. Or coming across a stripped one. Gah. That switch is many years old, but a testament to a higher quality product than that of its modern equivalent.
There's a lot of factors in play here. The biggest is that there appears to be no ground, this alone will make lead testers go haywire. Second it's a 3 way switch, which can be wired in a lot of different ways depending on the situation and use. Last, sometimes older systems switch the neutrals instead of hot wires.
PS The flathead screws pictured are satan. Especially the ones that hold the device in place, it makes me cringe thinking of the time I've spent trying to back them out after years of paint or rust or dirt or whatever. Or coming across a stripped one. Gah. That switch is many years old, but a testament to a higher quality product than that of its modern equivalent.
1. Wouldn't I get rather random results if it was going haywire? I tested it multiple times - probably at least 20 - and got the same results every single time.
2. Yes, I noticed that, and wondered. I'd like to come back to that one.
3. If the neutral was switched, why would the wires ever test hot?
Yes, I agree about those flathead screws. Bleh.
Now back to #2. Why would anyone use a 3 way switch when it wasn't needed? If I replace the switch, can I just use a regular switch or do I need to use a 3 way? Can you refer me to a website or other resource where I can learn more about those different ways of wiring and the situations that would call for that?
Electrician · Bothell, WA · Member since 2014 · 241 posts · 96 votes
10y
1. Wouldn't I get rather random results if it was going haywire? I tested it multiple times - probably at least 20 - and got the same results every single time.
2. Yes, I noticed that, and wondered. I'd like to come back to that one.
3. If the neutral was switched, why would the wires ever test hot?
Now back to #2. Why would anyone use a 3 way switch when it wasn't needed? If I replace the switch, can I just use a regular switch or do I need to use a 3 way? Can you refer me to a website or other resource where I can learn more about those different ways of wiring and the situations that would call for that?
I appreciate the help!
1. I'd put my money on you getting the same but incorrect reading every time.
2. This is hard to answer without know why there is a 3-way there in the first place. Maybe a buried box somewhere? Looks like all 3 screws have wires landed. Not sure of a good place for info, a Google search I'm sure would do well.
3. Neutral wires in many cases have current running through them just like hot wires. Without a ground to regulate off of, testing becomes a crap shoot. More advanced techniques of troubleshooting become required.
You can try using the metal box for the ground. That device is from a time where it was common place to ground the box, but not the device. However, it looks to be added in that location, perhaps a clue to why it's a 3-way. Hard to say when it was added.
1. I'd put my money on you getting the same but incorrect reading every time.
2. This is hard to answer without know why there is a 3-way there in the first place. Maybe a buried box somewhere? Looks like all 3 screws have wires landed. Not sure of a good place for info, a Google search I'm sure would do well.
3. Neutral wires in many cases have current running through them just like hot wires. Without a ground to regulate off of, testing becomes a crap shoot. More advanced techniques of troubleshooting become required.
You can try using the metal box for the ground. That device is from a time where it was common place to ground the box, but not the device. However, it looks to be added in that location, perhaps a clue to why it's a 3-way. Hard to say when it was added.
1. Hmm... so I might still get a jolt from a wire that tests as dead? Unsettling, to say the least.
2. Only two screws have wires connected. The two shown in photo #2. The top is white, the bottom black. What do you mean by "buried box"? A hidden junction box?
3. Okay . . . That leads to another question. Different switch, also a 3 way with only 2 wires connected. The cable in the switch box is the old cloth-wrapped 2 strand no ground. The wires in the ceiling box that the switch controls are modern 12/2 w/ground Romex. When the switch is on, the white wire in the ceiling box is hot, not the black. I was assuming they accidentally reversed them in a connection somewhere. Am I making a bad assumption?