Difficulty finding the right contractor to fit my business

Difficulty finding the right contractor to fit my business

Sherwood, OR · Member since 2014 · 13 posts · 5 votes

Contractors seem to be everywhere, but the right contractors to fit my business seem to be elusive. I've Compiled lists and cold called by searching places like homeadvisor or angieslist, as well as go through my networking of contractors that I currently work with, but where I seem to hit a road block is finding the select few contractors that are willing to work with in my business model. Specifically I'm looking for contractors that have a work force that can tackle multiple projects at once, are motivated by repeat business, and will give me solid consistent pricing (in return for the volume of work I give them). The catch is I have access to all my finish materials (flooring, tile, cabinets, counter tops etc..) at cost direct from the manufacturers. This means they don't get to mark up the materiel. I still expect to be charged for all the install labor and any coordination time it takes in delivering materials to the job sight or scheduling between different trades. I've been very successful in the last year running my flips as the General contractor but find that I need to bring on multiple GC's to keep up with the amount of work I've been putting in the pipeline. I don't want to keep running my own projects so I can work more  ON the business and less IN it. Any creative suggestions or advice about how to track down the types of Contractors I'm looking for??

1Reply
141 views

Most Popular Reply

Rental Property Investor · Knoxville, TN · Member since 2011 · 701 posts · 531 votes
11y

My plumbers took me out to lunch a couple weeks ago. We got into the topic of bad contractors and customers  (from their perspective). One of them said this, paraphrasing, "if the guys says to me 'I've got a bunch of work and want to build a long-term relationship with you' I get back in the van." This is used often towards them and isn't seen as a positive by many. 

The reality is they're interviewing you as much as you are them. Us investors have a reputation as being cheap, hard to work with, unrealistic, and sometimes difficult to get payment from. They view us as negatively as we do them. So when you're interviewing them remember they're interviewing you too and think about how you can gain their confidence and trust.

Finding good ones is a tough part of this business.

See this reply in the discussion

51 Replies

Jump to latestLatest
  • Rental Property Investor · Providence, RI · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 594 votes
    11y

    In our business we have several employees along with a few hourly part timers that work as needed on their days off from their full time jobs.  I have a construction background myself, and I have found that the biggest problem with contractors is that some are great builders, but fewer are great business men.  This is the case with our main carpenter.  He is honest, very skilled, and honestly really does bang stuff out for us.  We give him a little latitude because he really has been great for us over the years.  So much of the time though, I will feed him a lead outside of our business on his own to put some extra cash in his pocket, and I'll find out that he won't call the person back and things like that.  So many have poor organizational skills, others aren't financially responsible so they have to do a little bit of this job to get paid this week, jump to another one, back to you, etc.  In all honesty, it is very common and flat out sucks.  I'd love to put it more eloquently, but lets call it what it is.  It is the one extremely frustrating thing in this business.  

    The only couple pieces of advice that I can give you is to bring on an employee full time and see how that works for you.  If you have a lead carpenter, foreman, whatever you want to call it and build a business around that person, it is easier to control.  They need structure.  One other thing that I tried years ago and worked well to the point where I still use this person on occasion... Talk to a local lumber yard.  Tell them you want a builder who does really great work, is affordable, and hungry.  They are gonna know.  Trust me.  Bring the guy at the lumber yard desk a 12 pack of beer and put in a regular order of materials, and he is going to love you.  Watch the follow through on the part of the lumber yard and the relationship they form with you.    

  • Contractor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2008 · 978 posts · 985 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @J Scott:
    Originally posted by @Aaron McGinnis:

    - The contractor legitimately gets more work

    If I am large enough to handle that much work, I have my own means for getting that work that are in place and working for me. More work is... more work. Ultimately, it's unlikely that your $100-200k per year is going to really move my needle.

    If we're talking about contractors for whom my $100-200K per year isn't going to make a difference, then we're having different conversations.

    I hire subcontractors, and for most (all?) of them $100-200K per year makes a difference.

    If anyone reading this is hiring contractors that don't really care about $100-200K per year, then ignore my advice...it doesn't necessarily apply...

    Yes, we are definitely having a different conversation :) 

    I'm talking about firms that can actually solve the problem that OP has presented - absorbing a lot of work in short order without coming apart at the seams and doing it in a turn-key setting, without forcing OP to become a builder himself.

    A firm that can absorb that kind of work in a year, service it well, and do so in a turn-key fashion, is by definition not going to see their needle particularly moved by that amount of work... certainly not in the way that most investors would like to think that they are moving that needle. They also will laugh and get back in their truck at the very first instant of an investor saying, "Give me this job for cheap and I'll give you a lot of work"... because at the end of the day, they don't need the investor's vague promises of more work - they have their own methods to bring in that work.

    I see this all the time. Investors come to me with projects that they want us to run for them - we bring competence, legitimacy, and managed results to the table. Where we have a problem is with them paying for all of that... they all want to pay direct-labor subcontractor wages, and work with us as if we were a direct-labor subcontractor. 

    What they fail to understand is that we can do all the things they want us to do because we don't behave (or bill) like a direct-labor subcontractor. 

  • Cedar Park, TX · Member since 2015 · 377 posts · 200 votes
    11y

    I own a commercial subcontracting business.  When I see in the specs that all of the material I traditionally furnish will be owner furnished and they only want a labor quote, I save my time and move on.

    Here is why:  The owner just removed the least riskiest portion of my scope- material and they want me to only take on the riskiest portion of my scope- labor with a reduced profit.

    The only way I take on labor only contracts is by greatly increasing my profit margins on labor to offset my added risk exposure.

    If you want top tier subs and contractors, you need to treat them as such.

  • Investor · Prairieville, LA · Member since 2015 · 311 posts · 424 votes
    11y

    Originally posted by @Brian Butterfield:

    Contractors seem to be everywhere, but the right contractors to fit my business seem to be elusive. I've Compiled lists and cold called by searching places like homeadvisor or angieslist, as well as go through my networking of contractors that I currently work with, but where I seem to hit a road block is finding the select few contractors that are willing to work with in my business model. Specifically I'm looking for contractors that have a work force that can tackle multiple projects at once, are motivated by repeat business, and will give me solid consistent pricing (in return for the volume of work I give them). The catch is I have access to all my finish materials (flooring, tile, cabinets, counter tops etc..) at cost direct from the manufacturers. This means they don't get to mark up the materiel. I still expect to be charged for all the install labor and any coordination time it takes in delivering materials to the job sight or scheduling between different trades. I've been very successful in the last year running my flips as the General contractor but find that I need to bring on multiple GC's to keep up with the amount of work I've been putting in the pipeline. I don't want to keep running my own projects so I can work more  ON the business and less IN it. Any creative suggestions or advice about how to track down the types of Contractors I'm looking for??

    It looks like the OP is not looking for the bottom of the barrel pricing, but "consistent pricing."  Over the last 12 years, I have experienced this same issue.  I tend to give out a few jobs to contractors/subs and not say much about pricing.  The current handyman I use is one that currently comes to mind.  He is now on the third job for me.  The first job turned out ok, but on the second, he came up with some off the wall pricing. Like @J Scott, I paid immediately (as I always do) and proceeded to give out the third assignment.  I told him that he would have to work on his pricing if we were to have a long term business relationship.  This is usually my approach to contractors in order to establish a long term business relationship.  What I did not tell him was that after the first job, I gave him a good review to another RE investor and the other investor wanted his info for a referral.  I am sorry to say that after the second job, I can not endorse or refer this contractor until I have a more solid track record. Oh, I forgot.  Guess what I was doing today on a Sunday? I was fixing a water leak underneath a sink that was included in job#2.  High price and I am doing his job!

    I have subs who have been with me for over 10 years.  When I call these choice individuals, I don't even bother asking what they are going to charge me.  I have been treated right with "consistent pricing" and great work.  My flooring guy came out on a holiday to do a tile job recently.  I told him it was unnecessary, just wait a day or two.  But he had other jobs ahead and wanted to make sure he got to me.

    Why was I dealing this handyman at all?  I have a choice contractor that I have used many times but he is unavailable.  Again, after my rave reviews to yet another RE investor, the investor rushed to my house to see exactly what I was talking about.  The other investor was so impressed with quality and reasonable price of the work, he hired him on the spot to build a massive house in another state. Therefore, one of my go to contractors is unavailable.

    As far as materials being ordered by the owner, many in my area actually prefer that. It seems that collection issues from customers is sometimes a problem for them, hence the preference.  I see that as a non-issue.  Whether I call the supply house or he does is irrelevant. Just adjust your labor rate up to accommodate the margin.  I would actually prefer to left out of that loop.

    I found many of my contractors through referrals from friends and investors. Also, I usually stop by a jobsite whenever I see quality work going on and ask questions.

    I am not sure if your business is scaled large enough, but if so, you might try hiring a "project manager" to run the renovations.

  • Investor and Architect · Ramsey, NJ · Member since 2010 · 305 posts · 84 votes
    11y

    if you have the knowhow and experience to be the gc (and it sounds like you do) then that is gold and dont give it up.  I am not  speaking of you picking up the hammer. I am speaking of you hiring,  coordinating,   paying the trades. Construction is very intimidating to people who don't know it. You are so ahead. 

    Perhaps hiring a part time project manager who can help with construction and the other aspects of business would work for you. 

  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Hugh Ayles:

    Here is why:  The owner just removed the least riskiest portion of my scope- material and they want me to only take on the riskiest portion of my scope- labor with a reduced profit.

    The only way I take on labor only contracts is by greatly increasing my profit margins on labor to offset my added risk exposure.

    The only reason that not buying materials reduces your risk is because you have a markup on the materials that can be used to offset any estimation mistakes you make on your labor costs.  That means, if you don't make any estimation mistakes on labor, you just pocketed the money that was used to pad your budget in case you made a mistake.  In other words, I overpaid.  

    Don't get me wrong -- you have every right to mitigate your labor risk with increased material costs.  But, as a customer I have every right to not want to subsidize your risk management through higher material costs.

    I'd rather purchase the materials myself (bringing both of our risk in that area to zero) and then have you bid more conservatively on the labor if you have to in order to mitigate risk.  That way, I can get an apples-to-apples comparison on labor costs among all my contractor bids.  If you all have the same prices and the same amount of price padding to mitigate risk, your prices should be the same.  If the other contractors have the same general prices as you, but are more confident in their bidding (i.e., don't have to pad as much), they'll provide lower prices.

    Again, you have every right to do this (and I understand why you do), but as an investor, I'm always a little concerned when a contractor has to bundle material and labor costs to reduce his risk in one or both areas -- that indicates me (whether true or not) that they aren't confident in their line-item bids.

    Btw, if a contractor isn't confident on his line-item labor bid, I'd much rather him give me a fixed labor bid for the well-defined tasks and then hold off on pricing the areas that can't be well-defined until we get into the rehab.  That way, I don't overpay and the contractor doesn't take much risk of under-bidding.

  • Contractor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2008 · 978 posts · 985 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @J Scott:
    Originally posted by @Hugh Ayles:

    Here is why:  The owner just removed the least riskiest portion of my scope- material and they want me to only take on the riskiest portion of my scope- labor with a reduced profit.

    The only way I take on labor only contracts is by greatly increasing my profit margins on labor to offset my added risk exposure.

    The only reason that not buying materials reduces your risk is because you have a markup on the materials that can be used to offset any estimation mistakes you make on your labor costs.  That means, if you don't make any estimation mistakes on labor, you just pocketed the money that was used to pad your budget in case you made a mistake.  In other words, I overpaid.  

     Well, that's certainly one perspective.

    Here's another: We work damn hard to set up relationships with our vendors for just about everything (Cabinetry, lumber, trim, finish parts)... we make good margin off those relationships. Those margins enable us to stay in business and turn a tidy profit.

    This is not about us having faith in our labor pricing, it's about us having faith that our labor and material logistics are working together to preserve our margin. Take away our ability to manage material logistics, and we get dangerously close to a full system breakdown.

    So the problem is - 

    One: The investor wants to manage a process which I would call an integral part of our core competency. (99/100 times, he will not be very good at it... and certainly will not ever be as good at it as we are)

    Therefore - I am less profitable because I'm not supplying the materials, AND because I'm losing control over a major critical path process.

    ---------

    Entertaining morning anecdote. I used to work for a major supplier of assembly parts for one of the Big Three Japanese car manufacturers. Everything was JIT inventory shipping from our warehouse. If we were late on a shipment and we caused the line to shut down, this manufacturer would back-bill us up to $50k/hr.

    The decimal place may be different in residential construction, but the concept is the same: If materials aren't where they are supposed to be, the builder loses money in both obvious ways (plumbing standing around with his finger in his ear)... and not-so-obvious ways (Having to reschedule things, look for materials, make phone calls, project manager going into emergency mode, subs have to be rescheduled, etc.)

    I have yet to see an investor who is willing to even entertain the idea that they should be backbilled $200/hr because a faucet wasn't exactly where it needed to be when it needed to be there. 

  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Aaron McGinnis:

    Here's another: We work damn hard to set up relationships with our vendors for just about everything (Cabinetry, lumber, trim, finish parts)... we make good margin off those relationships. Those margins enable us to stay in business and turn a tidy profit.

    Yup, I understand.  I have the same relationships, and they are one of the keys to maintaining our margins as well.  :-)

    That's not what the previous poster insinuated.  Regardless, if that's the concern, put in a contingency that you get paid for any time you're sitting around waiting for materials (and for any delays it might cause).  That will incentivize the investor and ensure that you're covered should the investor screw up.

    Regardless, again I think we're talking about two different situations.  I'm not talking about using a GC.  I'm talking about the investor managing the projects himself (or in my case, having PMs who manage the project) and hiring subcontractors.  I typically get better material prices than my subs, so letting them get materials is a double whammy to my bottom line (they pay more plus they mark up).

  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Aaron McGinnis:

    I have yet to see an investor who is willing to even entertain the idea that they should be backbilled $200/hr because a faucet wasn't exactly where it needed to be when it needed to be there. 

    And I've had contractors who have delayed my projects by weeks, and they weren't very receptive to being penalized for their delinquency either.

    It works both ways...contractors and investors can ***** about each other until the end of time.  Personally, I try never to bad-mouth my contractors because I recognize they they have a tough job, and they typically don't have the skills necessary to be great at it (they may be great at the construction part, but subs are often not good at the business part).  I expect that they look at me and say that I'm good at the business part, but not the construction part.  My contractors and I are two sides of the same coin.  

    In the end, BOTH sides need to determine if the other helps meet their business goals or not...I demand what I need from them to make my business successful, and they should do the same to me.

  • Realtor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2015 · 693 posts · 357 votes
    11y

    Go to Home Depot at 8am and go to the Pro section. You'll find good contractors.

  • Cedar Park, TX · Member since 2015 · 377 posts · 200 votes
    11y

    @J Scott

    As an investor you have a pro forma.  As a contractor I have a pro forma.  In my particular business furnishing material represents 70% of my revenue.  When I talk about risk, I am also talking about pro forma.  If someone wants me to give up 70% of my revenue, I am moving on.  Walmart and Gold's Gym are 2 examples of clients I do not work with because they provide their own material for my scope.  I have plenty of work without those two clients.

    You misunderstand risk.  I mark up material at x and labor at y.  If I can package together my labor and material, y does not need to be as high.  If I am only providing labor, my risk just went up significantly.  People not familiar with construction look at labor as a commodity.  It is not. A yard of carpet will always cover a yard of floor space.

    If it is raining, or cold, or hotter than normal, my production changed.  If multiple trades are working in a room, my production changed.  If power is not hooked up and we have to use temporary lights and generators, my production changed.  It has nothing to do with a bust in my estimate and everything to do with unforeseen conditions.

    Also, I will get better pricing than you on the materials I furnish.  And in many cases, my material with mark up is the same cost as your purchase price.  I get direct manufacturer pricing which means no distribution or wholesale mark ups.

    When I was on the GC side, I had a client who wanted a credit for carpet as they had an agreement with a manufacturer for what was sold as "discounted pricing".  My flooring contractor offered back the material and it was lower than the "discount pricing" that the client had gotten.  It is due to volume discounts.  The flooring contractor was in an uncomfortable pickle because they did not want to get in trouble with the flooring manufacturer who was touting discount prices to large building/facilities owners.  In other words, he was open book on the credit.

    One more anecdote: when Samsung came to town, their culture dictated that they discount quotes by 10%.  In the first round of bidding work, that was learned the hard way.  Word got out and most contractors learned that they had to add "give back" money on the front end so that they could offer a discount when they went to contract and still maintain a profit margin.  Again, it is about pro forma.  Samsung purchasing agents had to show that they got a 10% reduction from original quotes in order to satisfy their managers.  Contractors have to make x in order to keep the doors open and lights on.

    @Aaron McGinnis brings up another point- coordination.  Within my current business sometimes a small portion of the material is owner furnished.  I would say 90% of the time the material is not on site when we need it. There are real costs associated with that disruption.

    In my current business I do not do residential contacting.  On my residential flips, where I might be buying material and hiring a contractor, I expect them to include a certain amount of mark up for material so as to ensure they do a quality, timely job.

  • Contractor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2008 · 978 posts · 985 votes
    11y

    @Hugh Ayles- As J and I have been alluding to during our [frankly hilarious] back and forth...

    The problem is that the firms that you and I would consider 'real' contractors have a practiced, learned, and managed approach to every part of the business... we have our means and methods, and have learned the hard way to RUN if someone (ANYONE) wants to tell us to do things differently.

    The 'contractors' that everyone in this thread are talking about are less like 'real' firms and more like the direct-labor subcontractors that you and I might hire individually [and then manage within an inch of their lives.] 

    The misunderstanding, and logical disconnect, is when investors have some kind of absurd notion that a direct-labor subcontractor should conduct themselves with the self-managed precision of a real firm... while having none of the business or accounting practices that go along with that.

  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by :

    As an investor you have a pro forma.  As a contractor I have a pro forma.  In my particular business furnishing material represents 70% of my revenue.  When I talk about risk, I am also talking about pro forma.  If someone wants me to give up 70% of my revenue, I am moving on.  

    Again, it's hard to have this conversation when talking two different languages...

    Unless you're marking up materials a LOT, that 70% of your revenue is presumably at a relatively low margin.  For example, if you mark up materials 20%, and 70% of your COGS is materials, than those materials only contribute about 15% margins to your business (the math isn't that simple, but that's a reasonable estimate).  Unless the total margins in your business are close to 15% (I hope not for your business' sake), then material markup isn't as important as you think it is to your business.

    Just because 70% of a big percentage, but as a revenue (gross income) number, it's a meaningless without other metrics (COGS, net income, expenses, etc).  You could make 99% of your revenue on material costs, but if you're not marking up the materials, that 99% would be meaningless to your bottom line.  Likewise, 70% is a meaningless number without more metrics surrounding it.

    First, in a free market, labor -- for the most part -- is a commodity.  Nobody fixes your wage; nobody guarantees you a minimum wage or puts a ceiling on your maximum wage.  You are free to sell your labor services on the open market and get what the market is willing to pay for those services at the of time.  

    Why do you believe labor is not a commodity?  Why would you want it not to be???

    Second, what does you labor cost not having to be as high have to do with reducing your risk?  Are you talking about reducing your risk of not being able to pay your mortgage or reduce your risk on the job?  I don't see how your risk changes by cutting out one portion of your earnings, assuming the portion that's left is at the same margins it would have been otherwise? 

    What exactly do you think is at higher risk in this case?


    Okay, so you think that your markup of materials is reducing your risk of losing money in the case of other things you can't forecast.  This is what I was saying in my last post -- you are passing on your perceived cost of the risk to your customers.  While this is pretty standard, doing so by bundling another profit-center into your product (forcing customers to buy materials through you) isn't the way most businesses do this.

    When you buy a lightbulb, the lightbulb manufacturer has already passed on some cost of risk into the price of the lightbulb.  The manufacturer doesn't say, "To reduce my risk of selling this lightbulb, I'm going to make you buy this toaster as well, because the toaster is a lower risk product for us."

    If you're concerned about your risks with your labor, then mark up your labor.  Don't require other bundled services (well, do what you want, but I wouldn't).  If you're bundling materials for other reasons (Aaron mentioned control of the schedule), then mitigate those risks separately.

    Obviously, you can do what you want, but many investors are accustomed to buying materials themselves, and your disallowing that practice is going to mean that your customer pool is now smaller.  You may not care, but I'm sure a lot of contractors don't want to shrink their customer pool.

    Yes, all my contractors think that.  In some cases, it's true (and I let them buy the materials).  In many cases it's not.

    Your example of carpet pricing is a good one here.  I probably get carpet at about 1/3 the cost you do (and about 1/3 the cost of any flooring contractor I would use in my area).  That's because I lived near the largest carpet manufacturing center in the world and built relationships there.  I have suppliers who will ship carpet to me in places where they wouldn't ship for you or anyone else.

    You (or whoever my contractor is) can insist all day that I would have to use their carpet suppliers, but if it means adding thousands of dollars to my costs because they can't get the pricing I can, I'm not going to do that.

    Now, if you can get carpet cheaper than I can (even with your markup), I'm all for it!

    Absolutely.  And like I said to Aaron, there are ways for you to mitigate that.  In fact, there are ways for you to profit from that!  Get the investor to agree that if they don't have the materials on site when you're ready for them, you'll buy the materials yourself at an even higher markup, plus payment for the lost time.  That way, if the investor screws up (of course he won't think he will), you'll make more money!

  • Investor · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2015 · 173 posts · 53 votes
    11y

    Admittedly I haven't been in the business long but what don't understand is how I contractors think they deserve 70-80 an hour for their jobs. I make significantly less per hour at my corp job and yet it requires skills most contractors I have met would never be capable of having.  

  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Byron Bohlsen:

    Admittedly I haven't been in the business long but what don't understand is how I contractors think they deserve 70-80 an hour for their jobs. I make significantly less per hour at my corp job and yet it requires skills most contractors I have met would never be capable of having.  

    This is the part about labor being a commodity -- contractors deserve whatever they can sell their services for on the open market.  It has nothing to do with "deserve"...that's what people think they're worth, so by-definition, that's what they're worth.

    And that's a good thing.

  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Aaron McGinnis:

    @Hugh Ayles- As J and I have been alluding to during our [frankly hilarious] back and forth...


    Also worth noting that Aaron and I have worked together for a long time...

    Safe to say that Aaron doesn't represent a typical contracting firm and I don't represent a typical investor -- so it's possible that's part of the disconnect as well...

  • Cedar Park, TX · Member since 2015 · 377 posts · 200 votes
    11y

    @Aaron McGinnis,

    Well said.  We refer to the "typical" contractor that I think is being alluded to in this thread as a "pickup contractor".  Their office is their pickup truck.

    I have to carry a $5 mil G/L due to where we work and a typical subcontract is 20-60 pages long. 

    I was only trying to address why the OP cannot find quality contractors when his rules of engagement include pre-purchasing material.

    I have no problem providing line item estimates.  It is often required of me as well as showing labor rates.  But, like just happened a few minutes ago in my office, when I am asked to credit all material or cut my price, I politely decline.

  • Karen MargraveBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Realtor, General Contractor, and Developer · Redding, CA · Member since 2009 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    11y

    @Brian Butterfield Why do you need so many contractors? Are you a licensed contractor yourself, and/or do you need to be in Oregon to pull permits, etc.? It seems to me you could act as the GC or hire one good GC, and use Project Managers to manage the jobs, subbing out all the work to licensed subs. If you want, you can have your own crew for specific parts of the jobs if you'd like. 

    There's several different scenarios you can use to spread the workload out. I know we're looking at that ourselves in order to be able to ramp up to more projects.  

  • Russell BrazilBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes
    11y

    @Brian Butterfield Contractors I believe are the hardest thing to find in the real estate business.  Agents, title companies, insurance companies, wholesalers (There areny many good ones, but its pretty easy to find the good ones) all seem easy to find.  I actually have a good plumber.  But all the other trades, I just find disappointing.  Even when I find someone good, it seems they might be good for a couple years and then things will turn for the worse. A great example of this is Ive had a lot of luck with one particular HVAC guy.  Ive been using him for about 5 years.....but the last year his reliability has just fallen off a cliff.  Today he even no showed an appointment with me...and Ive given the guy plenty of business over the years.

    I wish I had some advice for you, but I just think part of our business is just having to deal with non top notch contractors. I often will got to a property with my laptop and sit there and work to insure what needs to get done by a contractor gets done.

  • Wholesaler/Investor · Las Vegas, NV · Member since 2015 · 4 posts · 0 votes
    11y

    Have you tried Redbeacon.com? When we were in the GC business we found that only the serious dedicated businessmen were connected to that site.

  • Rental Property Investor · Shawnee Mission, KS · Member since 2014 · 205 posts · 136 votes
    11y

    Back to the comment early in the thread about the plumber who gets back in the van when the investor asks for price break in exchange for more work....

    This is looked at unfavorably because the investor is using the promise to negotiate a lower price on the current job, and asking the contractor to take it on faith it will come.  And they have heard that many times before. It may be better to do a couple jobs before getting into this after you are happy with the work and the personal fit.

  • Bedford, NH · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y

    You guys aren't all as far apart as you think you are.

    One thing about that plumber getting back in his truck: companies do the same thing every day. I work for a very large very well known management consulting firm. One thing the data analysts try very hard to do is identify for clients who their "bad" customers are, so that those clients can "fire" their bad customers.  There seems to be a notion some people have that as long as you are making money with a relationship, it should continue. This is not true. The costs, trouble, risk, and opportunity cost of servicing that business all come into play.

    All that plumber is doing is pre-emptively firing what experience tells him will be a bad (or expensive, if you prefer) customer.  Totally appropriate behavior, and very likely a sign of good business skills, not poor ones.

    The reason I say you are not far apart is that it is obviously POSSIBLE to get contractors to work on your terms, it is equally obviously not EASY. If it were, the OP wouldn't have had to post. And the reality is that Jason's advice and Aaron's are likely to lead to the same place. With the OP looking at many contractors before.finding what he is looking for. And when he finds that contractor, chances are that in fact, it will be a.less established operation.

  • Rental Property Investor · Knoxville, TN · Member since 2011 · 701 posts · 531 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Cliff Harrison:

    Back to the comment early in the thread about the plumber who gets back in the van when the investor asks for price break in exchange for more work....

    This is looked at unfavorably because the investor is using the promise to negotiate a lower price on the current job, and asking the contractor to take it on faith it will come.  And they have heard that many times before. It may be better to do a couple jobs before getting into this after you are happy with the work and the personal fit.

     I agree and this is what I do now. When I first started I was naive in thinking that contractors would be excited to hear that i have multiple projects and thus want to work with me. Not so much it turns out. 

    When I meet a contractor now I just focus on the project at hand. I don't hide that I'm an investor and sometimes they ask if I have other projects and I typically do but I don't attempt to use them as a bargaining chip. There's no perfect system though.

    Richard, I think you're spot on. 

  • Contractor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2015 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Vincent Crane:

    Go to Home Depot at 8am and go to the Pro section. You'll find good contractors.

     HAHA, in the middle of all that arguing and this kind of advice comes up, priceless! LOL.

  • Contractor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2015 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Karen Margrave:

    @Brian Butterfield Why do you need so many contractors? Are you a licensed contractor yourself, and/or do you need to be in Oregon to pull permits, etc.? It seems to me you could act as the GC or hire one good GC, and use Project Managers to manage the jobs, subbing out all the work to licensed subs. If you want, you can have your own crew for specific parts of the jobs if you'd like. 

    There's several different scenarios you can use to spread the workload out. I know we're looking at that ourselves in order to be able to ramp up to more projects.  

     I think the issue is scaling his business, he is taking in more than what he could chew. I think the solution is hiring a Project Manager also, and finding labor only contractors, I have no problem working for labor only contracts, but if my guys show up, and materials are not there, they have to pay the whole day if they cancel, or pay the hours of waiting for materials to arrive, there is no way I'm paying for the owner/clients short comings.

    Also I am reading that his subs don't have enough crew or skill to run more than a few jobs, that's why he is looking for more subs.

    To the OP, you might need to get a good superintendent for your needs, there is nothing better than in-house crew, however, it is a lot of work to manage it, as all the profit risk falls on you, that means, if you estimate a job at 800 hours, and it consumes 1000 hours, then you will at least lose 200 hrs * rate/hr.  Fast and quality crew now becomes your problem.  You will need to hire a good Project Manager for your operations, also, be prepared to draft a clause that you will pay for lost time if materials don't arrive on time, this will entice the labor contractor to bite the deal, it will assure them that they will get paid if it's not their fault. If I get a labor contract, if they hire 4 workers at 8 hours a day, I could offer free PM, if not, I need to charge 3k per 50k per project.

Join the conversationCreate a free account to reply, vote on answers and follow this thread.