Highest property prices in the nation, maybe the world. Yet commission rates are untouched. 5-6% is still standard. But how is that possible considering that'd be more than most people make in a year? $100,000 I hear is the average commission...sign me up...
Hello from the trenches here... Commissions remain high here for 2 main reasons.
1) The process is WAY more complicated here than anywhere I've ever worked in RE and I'm pretty sure more complicated than anywhere else in the US. Ever seen a board package? It's about 300 pages of intimate financial detail that must be combed over, reviewed for accuracy, typed, and cross-checked 5 times. That's one of the services we broker's provide and it takes a huge amount of time and effort. One slip up and the deal falls apart - and with the average sale price of over a million, people are not doing it themselves, nor should they be. Also, you don't know if there's a problem with the "package" until you're 3-4 months down the road so it's really awful when that happens. Never happened to me because I'm meticulous and careful.
2) People here are all busy busy busy - so when they are selling (or buying) having someone help them sort it out is important - again - since it's such a complicated process (see #1). Besides the board package, the building itself must be approved by the lender. Sounds simple in theory, but in practice each building has its own quirks and no 2 are alike.
You need the cooperation of the managing agent, who, like every other New Yorker, is really busy all the time and may or may not respond to lender's emails, phone calls or letters. They frequently need to be harassed for basic information and assistance, yet the deal cannot happen without them... so you've got well -entrenched people/systems with no incentive whatsoever to get your deal through. They're better off if the apartment doesn't sell, actually, as they have to change billing records, etc... just more work for them, with no benefit -other than absurd "application" and "processing" fees (often totaling more than $1,000) that the clerks pushing (or sitting on) the papers rarely see.
I've bought and sold in many other places, but trust us when we say, it's really different here. One more example. In most places, you don't need an attorney - there's usually just a closing or escrow agent and buyer/seller agents at the closing. In NY - there are usually 6 - 8 attorneys or paid professionals involved AT THE CLOSING - Buyer's Attorney, Seller's Attorney, Lender for Buyer, Lender for Seller, Title Person, Attorney for the Coop/Condo Management. This is not counting the real estate brokers - so add 2 more places at the table please.
As brokers, we cannot and do not write contracts - only attorneys can. So, there is usually a 10-15 day window between "accepted offer" and contract. During this time, either party can walk away with NO PENALTY because there is no money exchanged. So, more deals fall apart before contracts here. Lots of work may have happened to get to this point - but no renumeration. Not for the weak of heart.
Low/fee FSBO type operations have all tried here and all failed miserably. I check all the time to see if I can pick up FSBO listings this way. A few weeks ago on a Sunday, there were 2, that's correct 2, open houses by owners for condos in Manhattan. I am not making this up.
Just accessing apartments is more complicated as there are no lockboxes - every single showing must have a minimum of 4 people involved - buyer, seller, listing agent and buyer's agent - we must all coordinate just to show an apartment. Again - lots of work that most buyers don't want to deal with. Sellers are pretty private (our apartments are a part of our very limited private personal space in a crowded city - so we protect our space) and they don't want a lot of people traipsing through. They want a professional to handle it.
At the end of the day it's still a percentage of the sales price - so if a broker is getting a $100k commission check for example, the seller is getting $1.666 million. The majority of commission checks are not that high - the higher end apartments skew the numbers. I'm not sure what the average commission is across the city, but I'm sure it's way less. There are plenty of $300k-$800k apartments selling outside of the prime areas that are still part of NYC. So - most agents are seeing checks closer to the $10-$20k range - not bad but not $100k for every deal. It's not like on TV. Lots and lots of showings, some turn into sales, but most don't - longer waits for closings - broker takes a cut- anyone who has done this knows the drill.
For better or worse - NYC is odd. As most NYers agree - it's one of (if not the) best places on earth (certainly in the US) because we have incredible diversity, openness, creativity, access, architecture, history, culture, opportunity, transportation etc.. We put up with small spaces, rude encounters (not all the time but it's bound to happen), higher prices for most things and lots of other negatives (noise and dirt come to mind) because it's an incredibly fun, exciting, interesting and stimulating place to be - and to live- if you can make it work. It's not easy and not for everyone, but there's nothing like it - both in day-to-day living and in real estate.
For me, it helps to have an escape hatch (a cabin in rural Vermont) - and the ability to hop on a non-stop flight to just about anywhere. One needs to find balance through yoga, exercise or just quiet time, and the secret that NYers know is that we all take that time. It's learning to say "no" to all the great things to do/see/eat here that takes some practice. It's 1:40AM here - time to break that other myth - this is the city does, in fact, sleep. But if I wanted a particular type of food or really anything (product/service/experience), I know I can go out right now and walk to the corner and get on a 24 hour train (about $115/month unlimited rides) to a special spot that is waiting to serve it up and will be full of interesting creatures large and small. I'll find whatever I want. The subway will be there to bring me home when I'm done. That's kind of amazing.
Good night.
@J Randall Tell me if I'm wrong, but isn't 100k in NYC hard to live off of?
although it goes against logic, the high commission is because of the high demand. the same situation exists in Boston, agents have to know their commission will be worth the amount of work they invest with a client. and like new york, with a majority of buyers being wealthy you can establish a high going-rate because you won't lose business. sorry if I didn't explain that all to well, hope that helps!
Hello from the trenches here... Commissions remain high here for 2 main reasons.
1) The process is WAY more complicated here than anywhere I've ever worked in RE and I'm pretty sure more complicated than anywhere else in the US. Ever seen a board package? It's about 300 pages of intimate financial detail that must be combed over, reviewed for accuracy, typed, and cross-checked 5 times. That's one of the services we broker's provide and it takes a huge amount of time and effort. One slip up and the deal falls apart - and with the average sale price of over a million, people are not doing it themselves, nor should they be. Also, you don't know if there's a problem with the "package" until you're 3-4 months down the road so it's really awful when that happens. Never happened to me because I'm meticulous and careful.
2) People here are all busy busy busy - so when they are selling (or buying) having someone help them sort it out is important - again - since it's such a complicated process (see #1). Besides the board package, the building itself must be approved by the lender. Sounds simple in theory, but in practice each building has its own quirks and no 2 are alike.
You need the cooperation of the managing agent, who, like every other New Yorker, is really busy all the time and may or may not respond to lender's emails, phone calls or letters. They frequently need to be harassed for basic information and assistance, yet the deal cannot happen without them... so you've got well -entrenched people/systems with no incentive whatsoever to get your deal through. They're better off if the apartment doesn't sell, actually, as they have to change billing records, etc... just more work for them, with no benefit -other than absurd "application" and "processing" fees (often totaling more than $1,000) that the clerks pushing (or sitting on) the papers rarely see.
I've bought and sold in many other places, but trust us when we say, it's really different here. One more example. In most places, you don't need an attorney - there's usually just a closing or escrow agent and buyer/seller agents at the closing. In NY - there are usually 6 - 8 attorneys or paid professionals involved AT THE CLOSING - Buyer's Attorney, Seller's Attorney, Lender for Buyer, Lender for Seller, Title Person, Attorney for the Coop/Condo Management. This is not counting the real estate brokers - so add 2 more places at the table please.
As brokers, we cannot and do not write contracts - only attorneys can. So, there is usually a 10-15 day window between "accepted offer" and contract. During this time, either party can walk away with NO PENALTY because there is no money exchanged. So, more deals fall apart before contracts here. Lots of work may have happened to get to this point - but no renumeration. Not for the weak of heart.
Low/fee FSBO type operations have all tried here and all failed miserably. I check all the time to see if I can pick up FSBO listings this way. A few weeks ago on a Sunday, there were 2, that's correct 2, open houses by owners for condos in Manhattan. I am not making this up.
Just accessing apartments is more complicated as there are no lockboxes - every single showing must have a minimum of 4 people involved - buyer, seller, listing agent and buyer's agent - we must all coordinate just to show an apartment. Again - lots of work that most buyers don't want to deal with. Sellers are pretty private (our apartments are a part of our very limited private personal space in a crowded city - so we protect our space) and they don't want a lot of people traipsing through. They want a professional to handle it.
At the end of the day it's still a percentage of the sales price - so if a broker is getting a $100k commission check for example, the seller is getting $1.666 million. The majority of commission checks are not that high - the higher end apartments skew the numbers. I'm not sure what the average commission is across the city, but I'm sure it's way less. There are plenty of $300k-$800k apartments selling outside of the prime areas that are still part of NYC. So - most agents are seeing checks closer to the $10-$20k range - not bad but not $100k for every deal. It's not like on TV. Lots and lots of showings, some turn into sales, but most don't - longer waits for closings - broker takes a cut- anyone who has done this knows the drill.
For better or worse - NYC is odd. As most NYers agree - it's one of (if not the) best places on earth (certainly in the US) because we have incredible diversity, openness, creativity, access, architecture, history, culture, opportunity, transportation etc.. We put up with small spaces, rude encounters (not all the time but it's bound to happen), higher prices for most things and lots of other negatives (noise and dirt come to mind) because it's an incredibly fun, exciting, interesting and stimulating place to be - and to live- if you can make it work. It's not easy and not for everyone, but there's nothing like it - both in day-to-day living and in real estate.
For me, it helps to have an escape hatch (a cabin in rural Vermont) - and the ability to hop on a non-stop flight to just about anywhere. One needs to find balance through yoga, exercise or just quiet time, and the secret that NYers know is that we all take that time. It's learning to say "no" to all the great things to do/see/eat here that takes some practice. It's 1:40AM here - time to break that other myth - this is the city does, in fact, sleep. But if I wanted a particular type of food or really anything (product/service/experience), I know I can go out right now and walk to the corner and get on a 24 hour train (about $115/month unlimited rides) to a special spot that is waiting to serve it up and will be full of interesting creatures large and small. I'll find whatever I want. The subway will be there to bring me home when I'm done. That's kind of amazing.
Good night.
I think it's quite simple actually. Anything truly worthwhile costs more. Quality costs more. But in the end it costs less because of it's inherit value. NYC real estate will only continue to go up over time bar any major outside threat attacking it. It's where people from around the world want to be, not just people here in the United States.
1. Historically commissions are down. Used to be the most common commission level was 7%, now that's 5-6% as you stated.
2. There are alternatives for lowered commissions, flat rate commissions and here's there's places that will list for 1% and place in MLS.
3. The commissions received by the agent are often reduced by broker cuts, co-broking, franchise fees, advertising and other fees.
4. The average annual commissions actually received by agents is probably much lower than you think. according to the BLS, the median yearly income of a real estate agent is $39,800. The best paid made about $98,000 and the lowest paid made $21,000.
5. Many commercial brokers do make more than residential brokers due to the higher price tags of properties sold.
6. Often times because of high sale prices the commissions percentages in the listing contract are significant lower. I've seen listings with a sliding scale with commissions as low as 1% for multi-million dollar properties.
7. All real estate commissions are negotiable.
8. The real estate consumers control the commission percentages. The free market will only pay what it wants to pay. If there is a lower priced alternative that has the same results, that will attract buyers and sellers.
@Steven Kopstein....Well said sir, well said. You ht the nail right on the head.
Thanks @Charmaine M.. Sometimes it seems like only other New Yorker's can fully appreciate and understand why we live here. The rest of the country thinks we are nuts - and at times, I agree :) I think the biggest mis-perception for New Yorkers living here is that uptown and the boroughs are not NYC. IMHO, they are actually more "real" NY because of the mom and pop bodegas tree-lined streets, funky restaurants and true long-term residents who add a sense of place to our neighborhoods. While I love the energy of downtown, as I get older I appreciate the quieter areas outside the core. In 15 minutes, I can be in Times Square. Prices are about 1/3 to 1/2 what they are just 2 miles away. The biggest misperception of people from away is that we all live in Midtown high rises for $5k/month and dash around in taxis to fancy restaurants. The variety of lifestyles (in very close proximity) is what makes it most appealing to me - you can have it/see it ALL. I like to think of a subway car as the world in a can. You can see your younger self and your older self every day in the faces of strangers. This gives one a sense of our place in the world - which is fleeting and beautiful all at the same time.
I do not handle million dollar plus listings very often, but the last one I handled $1.25 million, cost me about $7k in marketing, staging, listing it in Christies real estate magazine ($3500) etc...and I had to give up some commission to get the buyer and seller closer together. My take on the property wasnt all that dissimilar from a property half the price.
@David Krulac - Nice post - as I mentioned above - the 1% brokerage shops never survive here because the process is incredibly time consuming and complicated. It takes a true professional with years of experience to successfully navigate a sale here.
Even rentals often require that hefty board package I mentioned above. Yes thats - 200-300 pages of financials, letters of reference, pictures of (or interview with) your dog, letters from your employer, bank and current landlord and $500-$2500 in BS fees that you never get back even if they deny you the apartment. The process of renting here is more complex than buying elsewhere. So, people tend to stay longer in their apartments - which means less inventory available.
Ultimately, it is a case of supply and demand - so I always console people by telling them if NYC wasn't so great - there wouldn't be a 1% vacancy rate and buyers/tenants would have more sway over the process. They always agree.
I wish I were exaggerating when I say that the owners/landlords don't care if you're unhappy because someone else is waiting in line behind you, however in most cases this is how it works here.
As if everything I wrote about last night weren't enough - note that we do NOT have an MLS or even a National Association of Realtors presence here (NAR exists here but is completely irrelevant). So, as an agent, we have not one accurate source of information to rely on, but more like three or four sometimes accurate sources that we must go to in order to find, share and show listings. Talk about a huge waste of time.
I've worked in other areas in the US and every time I hire a new agent in New York, I tell them how lucky they are to be starting here because it is truly the most difficult real estate market in the country to work in. If they haven't had the experience of working in a "normal" marketplace, they don't know how insane it is here. Of course, the flipside is nice commission checks, but you truly earn every dollar.
One census tract here in Manhattan has an AVERAGE income at over $188k/year. So you can do the math.
Makes sense but I hear NYC brokers have it way easier than brokers else precisely because there is always an attorney involved. I've been in a few closings where the brokers never even showed up to closing. Literally was a hand-off to the attorneys after handshake on price. And the attorney charged $2500 and the broker got over $100,000 ... seems a bit skewed, and surprising that the attorneys got such a short end of the stick! Anyway, still seems like there is beginning to be price competition in the city which is always nice to see for the consumer http://www.hauseit.com/whats-typical-real-estate-commission-in-nyc/
When we bought our first personal residence in NYC the realtor sent someone over to sit with us to do the board package. We spent a lot of time with him to get it right. It was over many evenings just go get the items together and then to review them all in one night.
Since then we have become good friends and neighbors.
Even just being the buyer the guys earned ever dollar they made.
I don't play in this market because the cost of entry is too high. I play in other markets like Las Vegas, NV, Poconos, PA, and Rochester, NY. I'd love to play here but it's too expensive and something can easily kibosh the deal.
@J Randall - Very untrue about "easy" here. As I said above I've worked as an agent/broker and bought and sold in several states in the US and the process here is actually a lot more work. It's not easy anywhere. The main difference is that in NY agents have to work much harder to make a deal happen - board packages are nightmares in paper and just getting to that point takes huge amount of effort (inconsistent databases, lack of uniform "rules" when it comes to buildings so analysis is needed before a property is added to the show list, lack of lockboxes so showings sometimes require Olympic levels of coordination and time management etc. What is easier here is that we do not deal with contracts and closings - but that's pretty much it. That's why we brokers sometimes don't attend closings. We are superfluous at that point of the process and playing Candy Crush while watching people sign papers for 3 hours just so we can pick up out well-deserved checks is not a good use of time. We've got to be at the computer, making sure the listings we found allow pets, pied-a-terres, require 40% down, parents buying for children, knowing the rental policy, have a flip tax, or are indeed still-available, never mind in the right location and price point for our clients. When all this comes together - we still have the BOARD PACKAGE, board approval, lender approval of the building, inspections, final walk-through and if it ALL works we get paid (usually 4-6 months after showing the property).
Showing the same property in Washington DC, used to mean, check the MLS - maybe leave a voicemail for the tenant or current owner and go and show. If they liked it, I wrote the contract, got an earnest money deposit and closed in about 4-6 weeks.
See the difference?
For every 1 easy deal buyers and sellers talk about there are 9 nightmares to deal with. So I believe every once in awhile a broker/agent DESERVES one that goes smoothly without having to move a mountain.
Most buyers and sellers aren't running a business as a broker/agent everyday so they do not see all the other things going on eventually leading up to a sale.
I do only commercial real estate. What people with lot's of money want in my experience is SERVICE and the relationship. They are not in it for saving 10 cents to go with who is cheapest. If you had a broker with limited experience who saves you a mediocre amount on commission is that worth making a mistake costing hundreds of thousands due to their inexperience? I would say NO.
Personally I think competent broker/agents are not paid enough.
@Steven KopsteinVery insightful. I shall never complain about my hustle again. These little town blues.....
What do you guys do though in terms of work searching for properties on behalf of a client here in NYC? It's more than just searching on StreetEasy I presume? What systems do you guys use that add to a buyer just searching himself online?
@J Randall It's actually MORE complicated (again) searching for properties because there are several different sources - none of which are all that reliable - and the market moves quickly here. We have Streeteasy yes, but we also have something called the RLS, REBNY Listing Service, plus OLR, plus the websites of the individual brokerages. Now these sites are supposed to talk to each other, but I can tell you with great certainty that they don't always dance well together. I can update something on the RLS and Streeteasy doesn't pick up the change so then I've got to email them and follow-up to make sure it's done. We have a listing in Manhattan Beach right now where the Annual Taxes are showing up as monthly on SE. Try chasing that down for an hour of your day... No fun zone and far from easy when you add it all up. Hundreds of times clients have emailed me about listings on SE, then we check RealPlus/REBNY and it's already in contract or accepted offer. We have grey areas where it takes about 2 full weeks to get from Accepted Offer to In Contract - few agents change the status in the system, so they still show as available, but the agent isn't really showing... Then you've got to email, text, call etc just to find out if they are still showing it. Usual answer is no, but maybe... So the buyers have most of the information on SE, but it's just not all that accurate (maybe 80-85% on any given day). Good enough for a broad overview, but not great for actually trying to book appointments.
See my post above to learn more about the fun process of setting up a tour to look at places... It involves a min of 4 people and on average about 30-40 communications (text/phone/email) just to set up EACH appointment. Doing a normal tour lasting about 2 hours in Manhattan will take about 1-2 hours of time to just set it up.
Interesting, so it sounds like the pain points for agents in NYC are really the scheduling/coordination and also the board package which seems to be a pain to put together. And also corraling together the mortgage bank.
@Account Closed This article about the FSBO market in NYC is definitely a good read. The concept to be taking off these days: http://observer.com/2016/09/the-biz-of-the-fsbo/
Hi folks, I'm new here but have some thoughts. I am a NYC resident and bought my first condo here about three years ago. I started with using buyers' agents, but ended up closing a deal all by myself, giving the seller's agent the full commission.
First, let me acknowledge that everyone here probably has their own set of biases given the different roles/ interests we have. And I'm not immune myself. As a first time buyer who has closed a deal without a buyer's broker, I lean towards the notion that real estate agent commissions are too high. I searched (through streeteasy, trulia, etc.), negotiated, got an offer, closed the deal. Then hired a lawyer to complete the process. I can tell you with my personal experience that it is 100% doable.
Now, I agree that perhaps an agent could be helpful. When I had one, he could run the comps, help me with pricing an offer, and give me some moral support! But I didn't feel (and later proved) that I couldn't do everything by myself.
So to me, the question is, why is NYC stubbornly holding on to the high commissions? @Steven Kopstein raises some valid points about the complexity of the arduous coop process and some NYC quirks on real estate listings. And of course, there are 9 bad apples kicking the tires that every agent deals with, before landing one good deal. But that's true everywhere in the world, in perhaps every sales job.
Let me offer my own, biased reason: The status quo is too entrenched right now and protecting their interests, as I would myself if I'm in their shoes. However, I feel this will erode slowly over time.
Other thoughts very welcome.
2. A very good friend of mine with a sizable real estate portfolio is also a licensed broker. Our common friend was looking for a $2.5m+ home in Long Island so my broker friend said he would help him find a home and represent him. The problem was the listing brokers did not want to work with my broker friend and were willing to let a qualified buyer walk. Why? The story that were stating is that they only co-broke with MLS brokers. That is absurd because it is perfectly legal to pay a licensed broker in NYS. Those agents in LI were simply placing their financial gains and maintaining status quo over their clients interests.
Is that so absurd, or is it more absurd your friend was willing to walk away from a $60k plus commission, and not service his client properly because he refused to get MLS access?
Please enlighten me @Russell Brazil under what grounds should a sellers agent refuse to business with a broker who does not have (nor need) MLS access?
Please enlighten me @Russell Brazil under what grounds should a sellers agent refuse to business with a broker who does not have (nor need) MLS access?
Your missing the point entirely. Your friend had a simple solution to the problem in front of him that could have been solved in 5 minutes, made himself $60k and served the interest of his client. If it's common for brokers not cooperate with non mls brokers in your market, then your friend is trying to make a point instead of serving his clients and making money. Even If its not common, you go ahead and sign up for the mls, make your commission, serve the client then cancel your subscription when the transactions over.
And that's an inherent problem in this industry @Russell Brazil. So much collusion to not disrupt the status quo. Weak and non-effective ethics/standards boards. Clients interests placed way behind others when it should be first.
I know many have tried and not done too well as yet, but I'm still holding my breath with the hopes that an amazon type comes in and finally disrupts things a bit.