Typical split for a 100% funded JV Partnership on a rehab flip?
Flipper/Rehabber · Palm Coast, FL · Member since 2015 · 101 posts · 25 votes
Typical split for a 100% funded JV Partnership on a rehab flip?
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Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
10yI can't speak for less experienced Investors, but most successful investors I know with a lot of experience can borrow essentially unlimited funds these days at 8-12%.
51 Replies
- Investor · Murfreesboro, TN · Member since 2013 · 59 posts · 80 votes10y
Jason, I've averaged half a dozen a year for the last several years. Not a rock star but I'm doing ok.. I have a full time day job in the corporate world as well, which is easy money but gets in the way sometimes. I'm trying to grow my biz so I can comfortably walk away from a 25 year career making six figues.. Don't ever tell yourself money isn't out there. It is. My first private lender came thru a chance meeting at a REIA meeting. This guy was walking around not really talking to anybody so I went up and introduced myself. The next day he called me and said he had money to invest and wanted to get in the game. I had absolutely no idea the guy was loaded. We been doing deals together ever since.
- Rental Property Investor · Rockwall, TX · Member since 2015 · 891 posts · 701 votes10y
Originally posted by @Jason Roberts:
What is a fair profit split on a 100% funded rehab flip JV partnership under the following circumstances:
1) Rehabber who has limited rehab experience?
2) Rehabber who is very experienced?
3) Funding partner will do 1 deal at a time?
4) What % would you be willing to take for access to $1M+ in JV funding capital?
1) You will find many people willing to do a 50/50 split that are just starting out, however, I don't know how many people who are qualified (even without experience) to flip homes that would be willing to settle for less than that. If you are willing to accept less than qualified people with little to no experience, I'm sure you can do 40/60 or better.
2) While I have only done a half dozen flips, I feel like I fall into this category given my overall expertise in real estate. I would not do an equity share with any investor, as I can personally finance my own flips or obtain financing with very favorable terms (5% to 6%). If for some reason I couldn't come up with any cash, the most I would probably consider would be a 70/30 split, with the 30% going to the financier. I think most experienced investors will be of a similar mindset.
3) This makes no difference to me and I would not see this having any impact on the split.
4) This also makes no difference to me, as deals are the gating factor for me, not money.
I think the biggest problem you are going to have is finding people who have a deal, have experience, have contacts, yet lack capital. I've found that finding money is probably the least difficult part of real estate.
-Christopher
- Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes10y
Originally posted by @Jason Roberts:
You've got a great setup Chris. 8% is friend and family interest. And hard money is ridiculous. Even if the points and rate where doable they always lowball the appraisal so your coming out of pocket to the tune of 20% on a property with an LTV at 70%. Working on alternative to that which is fair to all involved. Most will need to understand there's a trade off in split for an unlimited supply of capital.
Again, I think you're thinking about how the market was a couple years ago, which is vastly different than it is now. That 8% rate was friends & family a couple years ago -- these days, there are plenty of high-net-worth individuals who are happy to lend at that rate (or just a bit higher) for a relatively secure return with an experienced/successful rehabber.
You will most certainly be able to find rehabbers willing to do a 50/50 split -- and maybe even better -- but, these days, those are typically going to be the newer investors who present greater risk, will require more due diligence and will need more oversight and hand-holding to ensure you get your money back.
In my experience, hard money lenders are hurting for business these days -- I know plenty of HMLs who are sitting on a lot of cash and are willing to compromise on rates to work with more experienced investors. They realize that there's so much money out there that any seasoned investor is getting better-than-HML rates, especially those who have the 20-30% downpayment. In return, the HMLs are stuck with the new investors who don't have cash, don't have experience and provide a higher overall risk.
If you want to get HML type rates (that's essentially what a 50/50 split is), you'll likely be competing for the types of rehabbers who are going to HMLs these days; if you're willing to fund 100%, these rehabbers will most certainly come to you first. But, you better be prepared to do a LOT of work to screen these "investors," screen their deals and then oversee their projects to ensure that your investments are protected.
Like I said earlier in the thread, your better bet is to just add more deals to your own pipeline if access to deals isn't a problem for you. It's safer, easier, and will generate higher returns -- win/win/win.
- Developer · Hobart, IN · Member since 2014 · 773 posts · 225 votes10y
@Jason Roberts Figured I would jump on here as well. Most of my investors are straight JV investors and we split the profit 50/50. I actually prefer jv investors because typically they are a lot smoother to work with than Hard Money or other types.
We hold title to properties and secure the jv investor a note and mortgage for their investment amount.
Can you find someone willing to take less of a split yes. Of course you can probably find someone to take even 70/30. However I do think you will find that you get what you pay for. Especially when looking for a strategic partner like you are that needs to be seasoned in the area.
Getting stuck with houses and inexperienced people will make you think twice before taking on another jv partner as i'm sure you are aware.
Please let me know if you have any more questions. I would love to help.
- Flipper/Rehabber · Palm Coast, FL · Member since 2015 · 101 posts · 25 votes10y
Originally posted by @Manolo D.:
The only way to scale it is build your own crew who will work for you at your own suitability. It is not hard to get a crew together, maintaining them is the hard part. And one at a time will not address the problem. 2-4 weeks work every 6 months is not that important business to any rehabber/contractor, you will just be treated as another client.
Hi Manola
At the moment we are doing 10-12 at a time just out of my office. Our goal is to be doing 3-5 at a time under this new partnership plan.
- Flipper/Rehabber · Palm Coast, FL · Member since 2015 · 101 posts · 25 votes10y
Originally posted by @Chris Romany:
I agree with the numbers quoted by David Roque earlier are pretty consistent as what is applied here in Central Florida. As a full time renovator/rehabber here in Orlando (and Realtor as well), I currently offer investors 40-50% profit, or 8% interest (six months minimum) for SFHs. The investor's appetite for risk will determine which route they choose.
Chris
Thats awesome! How many deals are you in a year?
- Flipper/Rehabber · Palm Coast, FL · Member since 2015 · 101 posts · 25 votes10y
Originally posted by @Anthony Stephenson:
Jason, I've averaged half a dozen a year for the last several years. Not a rock star but I'm doing ok.. I have a full time day job in the corporate world as well, which is easy money but gets in the way sometimes. I'm trying to grow my biz so I can comfortably walk away from a 25 year career making six figues.. Don't ever tell yourself money isn't out there. It is. My first private lender came thru a chance meeting at a REIA meeting. This guy was walking around not really talking to anybody so I went up and introduced myself. The next day he called me and said he had money to invest and wanted to get in the game. I had absolutely no idea the guy was loaded. We been doing deals together ever since.
Anthony,
Why aren't you full-time?? if you have that kind of private equity whats holding you back from going all in? If your already doing six it wouldn't take much to get to 12. That would be a lot more than your current salary I'd imagine.
- Investor · Murfreesboro, TN · Member since 2013 · 59 posts · 80 votes10y
Jason, the daughter is just about to get out of optometry college. Then I get to pay for a fancy wedding.. It's been a long expensive 8 year ride.. Having a "guaranteed" income thru this time period has basically kept me at the day job. Right or wrong that's how it is. After we get past this there is a strong possibility I'll take the leap.
- Flipper/Rehabber · Louisville, KY · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes10y
Good Luck Jason, I tend to agree with J Scott on this one.
I tried to do what you are trying to do on a smaller scale in the recent past. It is very difficult to scale because of the difficulty in keeping good rehab partners. As in any business customer retention is important.
Any newbie will love a 50/50 split. As soon as they do 1 or 2 successful deals, it is painfully obvious to them that they can raise the money elsewhere for much cheaper and they go off on their own.
You are forced to start over with a newbie and more of the newbie deals blow up than you wish. It becomes very management intensive to juggle the constant stream of newbie partners, many of whom are very happy to steal from you and not complete the rehabs.
- Rental Property Investor · Asheville, NC · Member since 2015 · 307 posts · 127 votes10y
Originally posted by @Eric M.:
Good Luck Jason, I tend to agree with J Scott on this one.
I tried to do what you are trying to do on a smaller scale in the recent past. It is very difficult to scale because of the difficulty in keeping good rehab partners. As in any business customer retention is important.
Any newbie will love a 50/50 split. As soon as they do 1 or 2 successful deals, it is painfully obvious to them that they can raise the money elsewhere for much cheaper and they go off on their own.
You are forced to start over with a newbie and more of the newbie deals blow up than you wish. It becomes very management intensive to juggle the constant stream of newbie partners, many of whom are very happy to steal from you and not complete the rehabs.
I agree with Eric, once the newbie flipper has used your money to establish a track record several HUDs deep, he'll either want a better ROI on his time from you, or find somebody else that will give it to him. I work off of a 50/50 split on profit with one of my former clients solely due to the fact that we're doing 2-3 at any given time. I don't put in a penny, and I'm basically there as a boots on the ground. If you have an interest in doing more than one at a time, I'd be interested in a 50/50 split for the long haul.
-Ben
- Wholesaler · longview, WA · Member since 2014 · 15 posts · 0 votes10y
So, where can we find a JV investor for these 50/50 splits????
- Flipper/Rehabber · Palm Coast, FL · Member since 2015 · 101 posts · 25 votes10y
Originally posted by @Christopher Brainard:
Originally posted by @Jason Roberts:
What is a fair profit split on a 100% funded rehab flip JV partnership under the following circumstances:
1) Rehabber who has limited rehab experience?
2) Rehabber who is very experienced?
3) Funding partner will do 1 deal at a time?
4) What % would you be willing to take for access to $1M+ in JV funding capital?
1) You will find many people willing to do a 50/50 split that are just starting out, however, I don't know how many people who are qualified (even without experience) to flip homes that would be willing to settle for less than that. If you are willing to accept less than qualified people with little to no experience, I'm sure you can do 40/60 or better.
2) While I have only done a half dozen flips, I feel like I fall into this category given my overall expertise in real estate. I would not do an equity share with any investor, as I can personally finance my own flips or obtain financing with very favorable terms (5% to 6%). If for some reason I couldn't come up with any cash, the most I would probably consider would be a 70/30 split, with the 30% going to the financier. I think most experienced investors will be of a similar mindset.
3) This makes no difference to me and I would not see this having any impact on the split.
4) This also makes no difference to me, as deals are the gating factor for me, not money.
I think the biggest problem you are going to have is finding people who have a deal, have experience, have contacts, yet lack capital. I've found that finding money is probably the least difficult part of real estate.
-Christopher
Chris
No offense my friend but 6 flips would not qualify you as an expert by any stretch of the imagination. You need 75 just to drop down from the highest interest bracket under lendinghome's qualification system. And I can always tell inexperienced investors who say they wouldn't jump on 50/50 money because capital is everything in the business. The more you have the more you buy which turns into income. To pass on even 70/30 money is nieve when you aren't doing 10 houses at a time.
- Rental Property Investor · Rockwall, TX · Member since 2015 · 891 posts · 701 votes10y
Originally posted by @Jason Roberts:
ChrisNo offense my friend but 6 flips would not qualify you as an expert by any stretch of the imagination. You need 75 just to drop down from the highest interest bracket under lendinghome's qualification system. And I can always tell inexperienced investors who say they wouldn't jump on 50/50 money because capital is everything in the business. The more you have the more you buy which turns into income. To pass on even 70/30 money is nieve when you aren't doing 10 houses at a time.
Not to burst your bubble, but quantity isn't everything. I only did one flip last year and netted over $200k. I'm reasonably sure the majority of members here would be satisfied with those type of results. I used to work in the corporate world and was putting in 60+ hours a week managing 300+ people - real estate was my vehicle out of that life. I earn a very comfortable living and I work on my schedule - when I want to and where I want to. Trying to juggle 10 flips at once has no appeal to me, when I can just do one at a time and do it right. I earned enough money by 35 to 'retire' and have enough money to self finance just about anything I want to do in the future.
Maybe you can look at it this way, if a newbie like me has no need for your funds, you may need to rethink how critical lending is to your average newbie real estate investor :)
-Christopher
- Flipper/Rehabber · Palm Coast, FL · Member since 2015 · 101 posts · 25 votes10y
Originally posted by @Christopher Brainard:
Originally posted by @Jason Roberts:
ChrisNo offense my friend but 6 flips would not qualify you as an expert by any stretch of the imagination. You need 75 just to drop down from the highest interest bracket under lendinghome's qualification system. And I can always tell inexperienced investors who say they wouldn't jump on 50/50 money because capital is everything in the business. The more you have the more you buy which turns into income. To pass on even 70/30 money is nieve when you aren't doing 10 houses at a time.
Not to burst your bubble, but quantity isn't everything. I only did one flip last year and netted over $200k. I'm reasonably sure the majority of members here would be satisfied with those type of results. I used to work in the corporate world and was putting in 60+ hours a week managing 300+ people - real estate was my vehicle out of that life. I earn a very comfortable living and I work on my schedule - when I want to and where I want to. Trying to juggle 10 flips at once has no appeal to me, when I can just do one at a time and do it right. I earned enough money by 35 to 'retire' and have enough money to self finance just about anything I want to do in the future.
Maybe you can look at it this way, if a newbie like me has no need for your funds, you may need to rethink how critical lending is to your average newbie real estate investor :)
-Christopher
That's terrific Chris! There aren't many rehabs that have that kind of profit in them so if you can find 1 a year like that I completely agree with you. There is something to be said for quality of life no matter how much money you make. Sounds like you have exactly what you want in life. Many don't so I'm happy for you!
My thing won't be for everybody and we know that. We only need about 100 or so to accomplish our goal. Most people have always told me why something won't work. Amazing what can be done when you don't take no for an answer. Sounds like you don't either. Your not in the rat race anymore and that's more than most can say. Very cool.
- Residential Real Estate Agent · Longwood, FL · Member since 2013 · 30 posts · 3 votes10y
We do 100% investor funded JV deals on new construction projects. Depending on the size of the job and projected financials, we offer investors 40%-50%. Our most recent deal was a 2 house project, split 50/50 with the investor profit estimated at 11.97%. We needed a total cash investment of approximately $1.2 mm. This was a project that needed to be subdivided into 2 single family home lots - but we have also split this project between 2 investors with each having their own fee simple lot to secure the loan.
Historically, we look for old single family homes that can be redeveloped into duplexes. We have found that the investor profit is a little more, but it largely depends on the lot costs and the size house constructed.
- Investor · Orlando, FL · Member since 2012 · 822 posts · 303 votes10y
@Andrew Katzman is that something you offer on a regular basis? I need some new construction money every now and then.
- Flipper/Rehabber · Palm Coast, FL · Member since 2015 · 101 posts · 25 votes10y
Originally posted by @Justin Stamper:
@Andrew Katzman is that something you offer on a regular basis? I need some new construction money every now and then.
Hi Justin
We only do rehab partnerships. No new construction. Sorry
- 10yJay HinrichsBusiness MemberReal Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
@Jason Roberts I find trying to find rehab partners out in the open market is pretty tough you have to wade through a lot of white noise to find the company your comfortable funding.
And it really depends on the scope of the work.. big pop tops or additions etc require pretty experienced folks.. basic cosmetic rehab's you can take more risk with your JV partner.
And its somewhat market driven.. like @Christopher Brainard was talking about I suspect he did a flip that was north of 1 million or more retail.. and you would expect that kind of return.. And those have their own risk profiles for sure.
If your looking to fund for the starter housing market those usually need to be done in volume.. and were a JV partner can help a flipper is to do volume if its just one at a time no one really gets anywhere as the profits are not enough for anyone.
Key is finding that person and or company that wants a capital partner and does not want to go into debt.. big difference.
There is a successful flipper here in PDX.. who has about 30 or 40 projects going all hardmoney and he was having some issues. I got a look at one of his lenders book his payments were 104k a month.. on the HML vig... that puts a lot of pressure on a person.
If he had a capital partner fund it all he would have NO payments and no cash flow issues.
So in my mind if your just doing a few a year HML is probably the way to go if you want to scale a business you bring on a money partner like most of us have done ... I know I did it that way and continue to do it that way.. I like having no payments and no stress.
Although I did just drop a lendinghome loan to see how it would go.. its the first loan I have ever taken from a institution other than my commercial bank.. and I would say other than some normal red tape they funded pretty fast.. And of course I qualified for the lowest rates but I still had to put significant cash into the deal.. still had to pay the points up front Still have to pay monthly payments. And because its in another state contractors need draws to start which I had to front then get back... So its a cash flow issue for most from what I can see by the time I got my great loan from them I probably had to put out 100k in cash for one deal so that will limit most folks growth.
- Contractor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2015 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes10yA 200k profit on 1 deal is tad scary, even on my books. It will be worth it on a JV split, but the OP is looking for 1 a year, and the fact that he is willing to risk with someone inexperienced makes me think the deals will be somewhere around 200k-300k to start with that, 20-40k is doable, 50%, 10-20k for 6-8 months of work is not really worth it. Now if the numbers multiply, 3-6 at any given time, maybe some average rehabber will consider it. That is still a lot of work for some who doesn't really have a structure.
- Flipper/Rehabber · Palm Coast, FL · Member since 2015 · 101 posts · 25 votes10y
Originally posted by @Manolo D.:
A 200k profit on 1 deal is tad scary, even on my books. It will be worth it on a JV split, but the OP is looking for 1 a year, and the fact that he is willing to risk with someone inexperienced makes me think the deals will be somewhere around 200k-300k to start with that, 20-40k is doable, 50%, 10-20k for 6-8 months of work is not really worth it. Now if the numbers multiply, 3-6 at any given time, maybe some average rehabber will consider it. That is still a lot of work for some who doesn't really have a structure.
I'm astounded by the people on here that don't do any rehabs but don't hesitate to offer their advice on how to build a rehab business. Fellas, do your research. Look me up. You honestly think a guy like me is going to waste my time on inexperienced rehabbers? Guess how many emails I got from people who rehab 6-10 a year and are thrilled to partner with a company to expand their business to 20 a year? 38. So please save all the advice on how it's not going to work. While most people are convincing them self and everybody else why they will fail, I'm making it happen. Going on 22 years as a full time rehabber. Something is working!
- Flipper/Rehabber · Palm Coast, FL · Member since 2015 · 101 posts · 25 votes10y
Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
@Jason Roberts I find trying to find rehab partners out in the open market is pretty tough you have to wade through a lot of white noise to find the company your comfortable funding.
And it really depends on the scope of the work.. big pop tops or additions etc require pretty experienced folks.. basic cosmetic rehab's you can take more risk with your JV partner.
And its somewhat market driven.. like @Christopher Brainard was talking about I suspect he did a flip that was north of 1 million or more retail.. and you would expect that kind of return.. And those have their own risk profiles for sure.
If your looking to fund for the starter housing market those usually need to be done in volume.. and were a JV partner can help a flipper is to do volume if its just one at a time no one really gets anywhere as the profits are not enough for anyone.
Key is finding that person and or company that wants a capital partner and does not want to go into debt.. big difference.
There is a successful flipper here in PDX.. who has about 30 or 40 projects going all hardmoney and he was having some issues. I got a look at one of his lenders book his payments were 104k a month.. on the HML vig... that puts a lot of pressure on a person.
If he had a capital partner fund it all he would have NO payments and no cash flow issues.
So in my mind if your just doing a few a year HML is probably the way to go if you want to scale a business you bring on a money partner like most of us have done ... I know I did it that way and continue to do it that way.. I like having no payments and no stress.
Although I did just drop a lendinghome loan to see how it would go.. its the first loan I have ever taken from a institution other than my commercial bank.. and I would say other than some normal red tape they funded pretty fast.. And of course I qualified for the lowest rates but I still had to put significant cash into the deal.. still had to pay the points up front Still have to pay monthly payments. And because its in another state contractors need draws to start which I had to front then get back... So its a cash flow issue for most from what I can see by the time I got my great loan from them I probably had to put out 100k in cash for one deal so that will limit most folks growth.
HUD statements separate the players from the talkers.
- 10yJay HinrichsBusiness MemberReal Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
@Jason Roberts you have the benefit of multi million dollar national add campaigns from the companies that sell training.. the focus of said training these days IS fix and flip
I have been invited to 3 different national training company events in the last year I was over whelmed with folks who want to do JV deals... now its culling them out to pick the one's you want to work with. of the 38 that responded on BP I bet if you get one or 2 you like then that will be about average.. BP as a place to advertise for this is not that great.. you have two things going on here.. RAW rookies, and who wants to go through their learning curve.. and those that are DIY and or experienced and doing deals who have their funding partners or HML in place.. 3 to 4 years ago the JV model would have been more acceptable to experienced flippers because HML was still re tooling it self.. But not now for very experienced players who have some cash there is funding.. Heck out here in the West once you have a lot of experience you can get NO money down deals.. and you can get rates at about 10... and one company now is only charging interest on drawn funds.. So its very competitive on the loan side..
So the trick is finding that middle ground.
And or focus on continuing to do what you do which is rehabbing for your own account. That's the trend these days and what I am personally doing in my home market.
Speaking of Huds.. Lending home has a unique way of verifying that.. they just use public records you supply them with your LLC names that you have taken title in .. they do a national data base search.. and can see if your doing volume.. I think they also figure that if you have done 200 deals in the last few years that your doing something right and they have no need to go into the tules and look at huds... for me it was a pretty easy experience really... easier than when I owned my HML company and I was loaning the money I did far more due diligence and underwriting than these guys did to me.
- Flipper/Rehabber · Palm Coast, FL · Member since 2015 · 101 posts · 25 votes10y
Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
@Jason Roberts you have the benefit of multi million dollar national add campaigns from the companies that sell training.. the focus of said training these days IS fix and flip
I have been invited to 3 different national training company events in the last year I was over whelmed with folks who want to do JV deals... now its culling them out to pick the one's you want to work with. of the 38 that responded on BP I bet if you get one or 2 you like then that will be about average.. BP as a place to advertise for this is not that great.. you have two things going on here.. RAW rookies, and who wants to go through their learning curve.. and those that are DIY and or experienced and doing deals who have their funding partners or HML in place.. 3 to 4 years ago the JV model would have been more acceptable to experienced flippers because HML was still re tooling it self.. But not now for very experienced players who have some cash there is funding.. Heck out here in the West once you have a lot of experience you can get NO money down deals.. and you can get rates at about 10... and one company now is only charging interest on drawn funds.. So its very competitive on the loan side..
So the trick is finding that middle ground.
And or focus on continuing to do what you do which is rehabbing for your own account. That's the trend these days and what I am personally doing in my home market.
Speaking of Huds.. Lending home has a unique way of verifying that.. they just use public records you supply them with your LLC names that you have taken title in .. they do a national data base search.. and can see if your doing volume.. I think they also figure that if you have done 200 deals in the last few years that your doing something right and they have no need to go into the tules and look at huds... for me it was a pretty easy experience really... easier than when I owned my HML company and I was loaning the money I did far more due diligence and underwriting than these guys did to me.
I agree Jay.
I went thru the lendinghome process as well. Submitted the spreadsheet of deals and they found rehabs I did from years ago. My problem with hard money is the BPO they use for as is value. 10% down always turns into 20% because the BPO is ALWAYS well below the actual retail value. So they really are lending on as is value and not future value. Then you basically have to find the rehab yourself with cash before you get the draw money back. After figuring in the points, interest rate and actual out of pocket cash I decided it was a much smaller headache to use JV money and use my cash to fund the day to day operation. When your doing 10-12 at a time that is is sizable number itself. We've done a few thousand over the years and I've learned the easier the funding source is the more deals I can do. Even though your giving up half the profit we are doing 5x the volume because it's all a system now.
- 10yJay HinrichsBusiness MemberReal Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
@Jason Roberts the only reason I did lending home is with bigger dollar deals were leverage is needed.. to put 500k in cash out on one deal there are very few deals that work COC at that price point.. so if you can borrow 400k and calc your cash on cash on your 100k then the deals work fine from that standpoint.. although your taking risk.
And of course here in Oregon were I building new construction it only works with debt. But if your blessed with a bank facility like I am and get money at 6% apr on drawn funds it works.. in this market I am competing with DR Lennar etc.. so margins are tight.. so our deals here are 10% cash into a 350k home.. it cost us 275k to build and lot etc.. by the time you back everything out we make about 50K net per.. and the bank requires 27k in cash up front.. plus the 275k has interest reserve in it.. so we never make payments. So our COC is excellent.. but we also have 4 million or so of debt going at anyone time.. :) And of course you MUST PG these deals... So for the next 2 years until things probably start to slow in our market its get as many in the air as you can... at least from our perspective.
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