Who's using IKEA cabinets? Talk me out of using them!
Developer · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 902 votes
So we're a few flips in now and we've only used IKEA cabinets with the soft close hinges. They look good and work well but our contractors hate them due to the assembly time. We're probably getting dinged by the contractor for the assembly time too but, outside of that, the cost and quality seems comparable to cabinets I'm seeing sold locally by cabinet distributors.
Thoughts? Any suggestions on where to get the best quality and price on cabinets in Philadelphia area? I'd love to try something else.
We've used Ikea in the past. Done quite a bit of it, actually. I know them better than I want to, so here it goes -
PROS -
* Easy to pick up if you're missing a piece
* Excellent value for hardware options. Doing fancy hardware combinations would be twice as much from a conventional manufacturer (Pull outs, pull downs, etc.)
* Typically immediately available
* Good longevity for regular human use (Not low-grade tenants)
* Doors are super easy to replace if you need to replace something or change styles later
* The rails are affordable. Frameless cabinets need to be installed on rails, and something from a 'real' manufacturer costs 2x.
* It's very easy to price as a layman
* The homeowner can customize to their heart's content. One time we flipped a house with Ikea and gave the homeowner a $1000 gift card for a full-price offer... and it worked.
* If the cabinets are installed correctly, they're good and sturdy.
CONS -
* Easy to pick up... until that one piece you need is unavailable and will take 6 months to get to you from China.
* Contractors hate them and it's virtually impossible to bill enough to cover assembly.
* It's almost impossible to wrap a typical installer's (or carpenter's) brain around the assembly method. If you weren't a Lego kid, you're basically SOL. Putting together a full kitchen is more like putting together the world's most challenging Lego kit than it is normal carpentry or cabinet work.
* Logistically, they suck. The delivery sucks. The waiting in line sucks. I've never had a kitchen or anything else delivered 100% accurately... there's always parts missing, and half of someone's bed mixed in.
* Did I mention that waiting in line SUCKS. Someone is going to spend hours dealing with the incomplete or inaccurate delivery.
* Their design software is a total POS. My kitchen and bath people typically run 20/20 and scream bloody murder at the screen when running the Ikea software.
* The crappy design software makes it very hard to do anything beyond basic, straight layouts.
* The crappy design software and the batching of some parts (like hinges) invariably means that you are going to end up with too many hinges.
* For a frameless cabinet, the reveals are large and unsightly. Granted, that may not matter most of the time... but it will never compare to a good quality frameless cabinet.
* The plastic feet suck, the toe kick sucks worse. We usually end up ripping down 2x6s to make runners for the base cabinets, and then nailing 1x4 in for toe kick.
* The toe kick is sold in absurdly short lengths, making a really clean install of toe kick impossible.
* The parts are downright fragile in the boxes. We've never gotten through a delivery or install without something being damaged in the box either from being dropped, or bending down the middle, or whatever.
* The last kitchen we did came in 997 (actual number) individual parts/boxes/bags. The delivery guys give zero ***** about sorting things accurately, and so just sorting the parts takes hours and a decent logistical brain.
* Doing that kind of sorting in a small, crowded, dusty, hot, cold space is awful.
* In order to figure out what parts are missing from the delivery BEFORE you need the parts, the only viable option is to have someone stand in front of the delivery truck with your own bill of lading and manually check off every piece that comes out of the truck. Not only do the delivery people hate this, the person tasked with the job will be ready to sit in a hot bath and slit their wrist once it is all over.
Thanks all, I'm definitely going to check out the couple local distributors mentioned!
@Troy Sheets Thats cork flooring.
That's what I thought. Did you use it throughout? Would you use it again?
Troy S. , give AAA distributors by the NE airport a try -ask for Duke. They also have bathroom stuff including frameless enclosures for a good price.
There is another place by Levittown who is a little cheaper but the name escapes me at the moment.
Thanks Percy, I'll definitely check them out!
Cabinetry often times comes back to the manufacturer. Installation is important, but manufacturer more so.
(Fair disclaimer, we are a distributor for CWP, Wood Harbor, Wellborn, and Wolf cabinets)
The advantage to a big, established player (like any of the above) come to things like -
* Quality of finish (Paint in a controlled shop is way different than paint at some guy's uncontrolled shop)
* Warranty
* Quality control of doors and boxes
* Quality of construction
* Service and Logistics
* Quality of hardware
When you're talking about local manufacturers, they're oftentimes not building in an environmentally controlled environment. This means that doors and boxes are going to shift and move as humidity changes, and paint finish is probably closer to a hand sprayer than a controlled and baked-on finish (Think rattlecan paint job vs. factory on your car)
There's also the question of design. A good cabinet shop/distributor is going to be running a good program like 2020 or Prokitchen (Although 2020 is more of the industry standard), which (hopefully) means less potential problems with the layout.
Most manufacturers are only 'sort of' custom... boxes come in 3" width increments from about 9 inches to 48 inches. The really fancy manufacturers doing 'true custom' or 'super custom' will manufacture any size you want... sometimes this means half inch increments, sometimes it means "Anything you draw in CAD"
(This, by the way, is another problem with Ikea... they do have limited box sizes and especially limited corner box sizes)
Last note: Please resist the urge to buy Chinese flat-pack cabinets. I know they're cheap, but you really are getting exactly what you paid for.
Great info Aaron and that makes a lot of sense. I don't have experience with $700k homes but I'm assuming you don't want to see filler panels and particle board when you open up a cabinet in one :)
I like the high end Ikea cabinets and in fact made a custom island in my home using their high end cabinets and butcher block counter top.
The problem I have had in using IKEA in the past for flips or rentals is that they:
1) Need you to complete the drawing in their modeler. This takes some getting used to.
2) They do not have the parts in stock and cannot give me a firm date on when they will be in (keep saying, call next week or week after....)
3) Too much assembly
If someone has a solution to address the above, I would be willing to give it another shot.
for the rentals we use Kitchen Kompact from HD. they are distrubuted by Williams, which has a warehouse about 1 hrs away.
they come in a few colors, i just get the oak because that can take a beating and not even show it.
not sure if other areas of the country have this, but it's just under $100 per box. i love them.
To echo what @Timothy Godfreysaid, I've used Woodcraft Cabinets in the past. If you're going down to Washington ave, don't bother, go a few blocks further south and straight to Woodcraft. They supply most of the places on Washington Ave anyway.
They are not the absolute best quality and the selection is minimal. There'e very little customization so you can't mix and match to get that exact style you're looking for, i.e. mocha stained shaker style, etc. Having said that, I haven't found anything priced even remotely close with the materials they use. They are solid wood and and structurally sound with soft close doors.
Now...while I've used these for my rentals in the past and I'll use them again in the future FOR MY RENTALS...I wouldn't feel comfortable installing these in a flip, at least not at the price points you're working in. It would feel a bit shady, like I was trying to put lipstick on a pig.
I've had some trouble with finishes coming off inside the drawers where packing tape was attached and pulled off. They're great cabinets for the money but they are a far cry from KraftMaid or something similar.
Snip snip
Great info Aaron and that makes a lot of sense. I don't have experience with $700k homes but I'm assuming you don't want to see filler panels and particle board when you open up a cabinet in one :)
Even in upper-end houses, some degree of filler strips are still pretty common. 'Round these parts, you don't see fully-custom-no-fillers until you get into multimillion dollar housing.
IMO, particle board gets a bad rap. So long as you're looking at good quality particle, I don't think there's any big sin in using it for run cabinets. I prefer to see plywood on outside cabinets though.
Another thing - MDF is making a strong argument for itself as a door material. It's less susceptible to moisture-related changes and paints up nicer than common wood species. We've actually moved away from using wood trim and toward MDF trim, and are doing the same with painted cabinet faces.
@Troy Sheets I have Cork throughout and its great. This is my residence though not a flip. In this style of house it goes really well, but I am not sure it would add value vs wood in most homes. I would certainly never use it in a rental though. It is really easy to damage, it just hides damage a lot easier than wood. Though it does take impact better than wood flooring does.
Love the kitchen design @Tyler Weaver! We rarely have that kind of footprint to work with in downtown Philadelphia, but I hope soon we will. I've been wanting to try a cork floor as well.
I've been using IKEA because it's nearby and I know the system well. I think we're going solid wood next time... I just want to keep the modern sleek look. Our GC loves WOLF cabinets, we'll be looking around for clean shaker or slab doors in dark wood. Thanks for all the tips!
I've installed IKEA kitchens in 4 of my rentals in San Diego, with good result. I guess I was one of those LEGO kids because I have no problems assembling the IKEA stuff. I do use glue on all of the joints to keep them from loosening up over the years. It's been a couple of years since I did the first one and I haven't had any issues.
Note: I pick up my own order at the store and check the list when I pick it up. The only items I have delivered to me are countertops. Even so, I have had to go back once or twice when I got the wrong size part.
One thing that attracted me to the IKEA cabinets is that they are frameless and that I can refresh the entire kitchen by simply buying new doors for a few hundred dollars. As a long term buy and hold, that is important to me.
Another IKEA product that I really like for my rentals is their laminate countertop. I buy them by the dozen and use them to spruce up tired kitchens. If the existing cabinets are salvageable, we'll paint them and put a fresh IKEA countertop on. It extends the life of an apartment by several years. These laminate tops come in a variety of colors and patterns and run less than $10/foot. I've been using them for over 5 years and have yet to replace a single one, so they seem to hold up well.
I'm waiting for the new IKEA to open up here in Memphis, just in time for me to tackle some rough units needing complete kitchens. One advantage of using the IKEA system is that we do a lot of apartments where everything is set up the same way, so we "design" one kitchen on their design software, then we just buy the same package over and over. It's a little different from doing a flip or SFR rentals.
Just my experience.
Erik
I like the high end Ikea cabinets and in fact made a custom island in my home using their high end cabinets and butcher block counter top.
The problem I have had in using IKEA in the past for flips or rentals is that they:
1) Need you to complete the drawing in their modeler. This takes some getting used to.
2) They do not have the parts in stock and cannot give me a firm date on when they will be in (keep saying, call next week or week after....)
3) Too much assembly
If someone has a solution to address the above, I would be willing to give it another shot.
This is a timely thread for me. I am looking at using ikea cabinets for an obsolete kitchen in a long time hold. There are several reasons why I decided to go them (customer service *not* being one of them), but I had the same issues. I don't know how to use their software and really don't want to invest time to learn. I took advantage of a current gift card rebate for using one of their planner services.
- I have heard about the 'not being in stock' issue. They recently changed their cabinet lines and during the phaseout of the prior cabinet line, there was a lot of complaining going on @ home sites. I wonder if the stock issues were during that phase? Anyone know how stock was in 2015? I think the new line started in 2015. Thumbtack does have ikea cabinet/kitchen installers and they will reach out with a request. The Blum hardware used in ikea cabinets are considered first class. As already mentioned, the 25 yr warranty on them. I also like the idea of getting a new sink door in exchange for a damaged one. I'm just getting back into landlording after a 5 yr hiatus. I haven't decided how much longer I'm going to hold this SFR so I'm going for a more updated look. (That was the problem I had with the cabinets at AAA distributors in the NE. Their door styles and colors were outdated). It's in a C neighborhood so it's probably going to be more competitive getting a non-subsidized tenant.
Thanks @Erik Nowacki and @Mags S., great feedback. This is why it's hard to quit the IKEA habit!
I used IKEA 13 years ago on a SFR in San Diego so I am sure a lot has changed.
At the time they did layouts for free. I heard they changed that but maybe they changed back.
I paid IKEA to provide a crew to assemble them. So the boxes were delivered and I just checked box counts. The assemblers were scheduled for the next day and came with a small crew and put them together real fast. Back then I did not have my current GC so I used an installation crew (not same crew as did the assembly) suggested by IKEA that did a great job.
My current handyman is slow at assembling cabinets. My current GC does not like to assemble them. So if I were using Ikea today and they still offered assembly I would pay them to assemble it. They do it repeatedly and therefore are both fast and will get it right. Also if a part is missing it is on them to take care of it.
The cabinets are holding up well. The granite counter had no lip and tenants dried their dishes on counter that dripped down cabinet front that is in front of sink so it needs some refinishing. Everything else is perfect.
We have done 4 rental kitchens since then and have not used IKEA but I would consider using them again. Two of the kitchens we did since them we used discontinued line of cabinets at great discount, 1 we used refurbished used cabinets (apparently the cabinets were not sealed and so they are wearing at the handles too fast so if you get refurbished make sure they are sealed/lacquered for rental units), 1 we refurbished the cabinets that were already in the unit. If the unit has solid wood cabinets then refurbishing in place is a viable solution.
FWIW, I put an IKEA kitchen (and baths) into a rehab-and-sell house in April last year. The kitchen is quite large and what I'd call higher end (for IKEA). It was an exercise in frustration. The end-product is very nice, but...
On the plus side, the whole thing was purchased during one of the 20% off deals, so the price was very good. If I had to do it again, I'd be on the fence - around here, it's very price competitive to get custom cabinets made in Tijuana and make all these details someone else's problem.
the quote I recently received from IKEA's partner traemand/freedom was about $1800 to assemble and install 8 boxes, base drawers, and filler do-dads, etc. Their cost to do the rest of the kitchen was pricey.
I would never consider using Ikea (hate that store by the way) when you can buy Chinese knock down Shaker style in White, Expresso and Gray in any market. They come pre assembled at a great price. Just google cabinets in your area and you will find a source.
for more upscale properties, consider putting different door and drawer fronts. Keep IKEA box and hardware. Semi-handmade is a reputable online dealer per popular home sites for replacing IKEA cabinet fronts.
I too avoid any cabs that have particle board if I can (hard to avoid with euro vanities). I used to use some chinese knockdowns that the distributor would assemble for me, they were cheap as the home center "in stock" as long as you got the simple oak. Last install I upped my game and used Fabuwood, a knockdown of better grade. Soft close doors and drawers, nice construction, reasonable variety.
This kitchen below was about $1300 as is seen with the cheaper cabs, I did it in a medium finish Shaker of Fabuwood for $2000 in another unit. It's not done so no pics.
Here's a pic of the Fabuwood carcass. None of those crappy plastic corner braces. Hidden slides, dovetailed drawer box. Hard to see but the carcass side is actually dovetailed into the faceframe.
I too avoid any cabs that have particle board if I can (hard to avoid with euro vanities). I used to use some chinese knockdowns that the distributor would assemble for me, they were cheap as the home center "in stock" as long as you got the simple oak. Last install I upped my game and used Fabuwood, a knockdown of better grade. Soft close doors and drawers, nice construction, reasonable variety.
This kitchen below was about $1300 as is seen with the cheaper cabs, I did it in a medium finish Shaker of Fabuwood for $2000 in another unit. It's not done so no pics.
Here's a pic of the Fabuwood carcass. None of those crappy plastic corner braces. Hidden slides, dovetailed drawer box. Hard to see but the carcass side is actually dovetailed into the faceframe.
They look good! I emailed them to see if they have a dealer locally. Thanks!
@troyS, Since you're in Philly, you would likely be able to get them pre-assembled from the main importer facility in Jersey City like I did. In my research I found people saying the assembly quality from there was often better than from the distributors.
Gotta say I find the website a little annoying, why can't they simply list their distributors like any other business, most likely they want to capture inquiry data.
We used an IKEA kitchen in one of our flips and I'll never do it again! The price for just the cabinets was "ok" but their pricing on granite was too high... We got quotes to have the cabinets assembled and it would've blown the budget so we did it ourselves. Of course, we had some missing parts/pieces to boot.
Not that plywood cabs would have done much better, but shortly after finishing the house, a water line blew out (lazy plumber didn't solder an elbow) and ruined most of the cabinets. We went to a stock HD cabinet the 2nd time around.
Not that plywood cabs would have done much better, but shortly after finishing the house, a water line blew out (lazy plumber didn't solder an elbow) and ruined most of the cabinets. We went to a stock HD cabinet the 2nd time around.
And people wonder why I'm such an obsessive about wanting to do it all myself! I've had more gas leaks from rushing plumbers than DIY.
While I'm sure insurance took care of it this time, I think ply does hold up much better to water. I've had pieces of unfinished get wet in the basement next to OSB & MDF. The latter are garbage after, the ply just a little discolored. If it were finished I don't know if you'd see a thing.