Permits and inspections

Permits and inspections

Brainerd, MN · Member since 2016 · 8 posts · 2 votes
Some facts first Just bought a 6plex apartment complex Ordered 23 new windows and planned to install ourselves with some help from friends Went to local landlord meeting and met other landlords and fire marshal, building inspector, and other city officials. In meeting talked about Windows and found out we needed a permit. Was told at meeting we could install any Windows we wanted. Before meeting sounded like most people avoid getting a permit due to the nightmare they cause and risk the fine. After meeting felt like there was no way we could attempt to play the we didn't know card and installing 23 Windows is not an easy task to hide. So we went to city hall to get permit. First discovered we had to be registered with the EPA $300. 2nd one person needed to be lead certified. Full day class $200. Third permit cost $120. 4th now we need to schedule inspection. Permit is granted. It's Friday and Windows are in. I call to schedule inspection on Saturday. We want to get started. They don't do inspections on Saturday. Explain we want to get started. We explain we are trying to keep as much in tact and pop out and insert in the new window. Laurie says sounds like pocket Windows . Get the go ahead to start and inspector will be out Monday at 1:30. We work all day Saturday and Sunday and get all Windows in. Look great from outside just need to finish inside. This is an old stucco building. Outside trim is stuck in stucco. Monday - inspector comes and is rude from the get go. Writes us up says Windows not installed correctly. Need flashing per manufacturers instructions. We call manufacturer and explain what we did. Did not want to disturb outside trim. Jim from the manufacturer says it sounded like we installed Windows adequately and he would be willing to talk to inspector. Call inspector and tell him this but he says we need it in writing and he doesn't have time to call or talk to manufacturer. Says we have to have it in writing. Manufacturer doesn't want to put it in writing Now what???
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Rental Property Investor · Maryville, TN · Member since 2009 · 529 posts · 414 votes
9y

Screw this! have a friend appoint himself authorized representative of the manufacturing company and write a letter with their logo, that states the procedural  installation methods followed were satisfactory and validate the warranty of the windows, and that he is the "local rep" and can call if needed(his phone # provided) What the hell else are you supposed to do except fight ******** with ********. And these f@ckers wonder why people are permit averse.

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  • Patrick LiskaPro Member
    Investor · Verona, NJ · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 832 votes
    10y

    I've never even heard of getting Permits for replacement windows. I'm in NJ and as long as you do not do anything with the structure of the building ( new headers, wider openings ) than it's not needed. Even as far as the lead paint, If you are just removing the stops and sash's that is a minimal amount of disturbance ( not more than 2 sq' being disturbed and you do not have to be certified for that ( could be wrong on that been a while since i took the class ). they are correct on the inspections, this is not HGTV or DIY network, Inspectors do not work on the weekends. Manufacturers will not put it in writing, but the flashing he is requiring is for new construction windows, not replacement windows, there is no flashing detail for them. They are replacement windows correct ? you left the old frames in place ?

  • Lender · Charlotte, NC · Member since 2016 · 371 posts · 172 votes
    10y

    Government at it's finest.

  • Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2016 · 16 posts · 9 votes
    9y
    In Los Angeles, and probably most of California, there are maximum off the floor height and minimum opening requirements for egress and light. You'll probably have to play nice and do what the city wants, now that you are on their radar. In one city where I had rentals, we were required to have a business permit and had a city inspection every 4 years. They had a folder on the building with every permit and inspection record for at least the last 20 years.
  • Contractor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2015 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    @Patrick Liska You need to pull permits due to an EPA law that you must test ALL windows for lead contents, 97% of the tests are positive. You might want to double check if city requires, in CA all window replacement needs permits.

    @Julie Dillon That is why you need to call for inspection if you want to DIY, ask what inspector wants, I would even do 1 window and have it signed off before I order 22 more. Actually, the inspector is only doing his job and is upholding the code, he is also trying to get the flashing in so moisture or water will not penetrate your building and/or wood under your stucco. I don't see nothing wrong with your situation, some manufacturers tries to please customers (it's their job too, to get the repeat business) and not tell them everything. Regarding what to do, have your manufacturer representative go down to the building dept and talk to the inspector AFTER that rep has looked at your installation, that's the easy way. Another option is, have a certified installer of the manufacturer go look and write the recommended action, it might not be as strong as the letter from the manufacturer itself, but the inspector might consider it. Lastly, if all else fails, you need to remove the windows, put the flashing, and re-install the windows, you might have to customize the flashing to serve what the inspector needs. Good luck.

  • Patrick LiskaPro Member
    Investor · Verona, NJ · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 832 votes
    9y

    @Manolo D., not in NJ. the best advice is to check with your local inspectors, every state is different. if it's just a replacement, you are not disturbing enough of the paint to trigger the EPA law ( 2 sq'), if you are removing the trim & frame, then yes you are removing enough to trigger the EPA law, but it is still not structural changes.

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Montgomery, NY · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    @Julie Dillon why will the manufacturer agree what you did is correct, but not put it in writing? I assume you caulked the replacement windows in to the existing exterior frame. What dashing does the inspector want to see? I would try the manufacturer again, then I would see about the flashing and how you could possibly remove the Windows and flash them.

  • Rental Property Investor · Maryville, TN · Member since 2009 · 529 posts · 414 votes
    9y

    Screw this! have a friend appoint himself authorized representative of the manufacturing company and write a letter with their logo, that states the procedural  installation methods followed were satisfactory and validate the warranty of the windows, and that he is the "local rep" and can call if needed(his phone # provided) What the hell else are you supposed to do except fight ******** with ********. And these f@ckers wonder why people are permit averse.

  • Contractor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2015 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y
    Patrick Liska True, if it is an insert window or in some states they call it retrofit, then also in CA and NV, you don't need a permit. The lead is in the paint, not in windows. Now the city did require the permit on this case and the epa requirement, therefore it is educationally conclusive they made alterations to the frame which triggered the permit and epa law. If they did, then there is a possibility they did not follow manufacturers recommendation hence not putting it in writing. Brian Pulaski There are reasons why manufacturer will not put letter in writing, first and heaviest is liability, second it can open a can of worms with their company, third is, they do not know how it is installed, it is not their job to verify how it is installed and check code requirements if it is. manufacturers are in the business of making windows and installer needs to follow recommendations to the letter, then apply the local code when installing it. The city is also washing their liability through manufacturers letter, that way the homeowner can't sue the city for negligence of any degree.
  • Contractor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2015 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y
    Will Grabert Your advice is of criminal in nature and could put the OP behind bars. Keep those kind of opinions to yourself.
  • Patrick LiskaPro Member
    Investor · Verona, NJ · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 832 votes
    9y

    @Will G. agree with @Manolo D. on that, do not give the wrong advice to someone.

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Montgomery, NY · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    @Manolo D. I can see the liability on a window, as if it wasn't done just right, it can leak and cause damage. With that said, they should have a standard installation procedure in writing, and that is what is usually followed when installed. 

    Has the inspector indicated what kind of flashing he is looking for? A replacement window that goes into an existing frame, I can't picture how it would be flashed from the exterior... See what the building official is looking for.

  • Investor · Sunrise, FL · Member since 2009 · 105 posts · 15 votes
    9y

    Down here in South Florida city of Sunrise code enforcement guys drive around looking for any violations they can find they live for it they love going after DIY people going as far as sneaking around peoples homes and looking and even looking at whats in peoples garbage to get a handle on what they might be working on.

    Best to just ask them what you need to do to comply the more you fight with them the more they dig there heals in

  • Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Patrick Liska:

    @Manolo D., not in NJ. the best advice is to check with your local inspectors, every state is different. if it's just a replacement, you are not disturbing enough of the paint to trigger the EPA law ( 2 sq'), if you are removing the trim & frame, then yes you are removing enough to trigger the EPA law, but it is still not structural changes.

    I believe windows are an exception when it comes to sq footage of area being disturbed, and EPA RRP practices would be required as Manolo pointed out previously. 

  • Investor · Canton, GA · Member since 2014 · 727 posts · 500 votes
    9y
    Yes, I can't understand why anyone would want to avoid the permitting process, can you? Following the rules is simple and pays off in easy to follow and consistent rules enforced by pleasant, rational, and personable government employees. A win-win for everyone. ;-)
  • Rental Property Investor · Maryville, TN · Member since 2009 · 529 posts · 414 votes
    9y

    This is how turned around things are, op working on his OWN PROPERTY, he is not contracting for others. So how far do we let this go? Unelected "officials" left to interpret code and order us to do whatever they want, no matter how stupid. 

    @Manolo D. @Patrick Liska I wish you guys would push back instead of laying down for this abuse. The last 20 years this issue has only gone in one direction,  and now I can't even change my own toilet without a permit and there are no guidelines for these inspectors misuse of power. The head of my building dept will defer any controversial issues to whatever pleases the inspector. I can hardly imagine what california must be like. Here, individual contractors are turning down jobs that require permits because of the power mad inspectors. So disgustingly sad to watch our system turn predatory, and see people get failed inspections every time so  they can get an extra $80 on reinspect.

  • Patrick LiskaPro Member
    Investor · Verona, NJ · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 832 votes
    9y

    @Steve Babiak,@Manolo D.if the windows are replaced i believe they are recommended to follow the EPA RRP laws. but as i said, in NJ a window replacement does not trigger a permit, it is considered Ordinary Maintenance under the UCC ( Uniform Construction Code ) which is what new jerseys follows and adopts the New Jersey version of the ICC Building and Residential codes, along with other codes. but every States code is different. there are two other factors to look at - is the place occupied with any children under 6 ?and if they own the property and are doing the work themselves, are they considered Do-it-yourselfers according to the EPA ?and are not required to follow the EPA RRP guidelines. https://www.epa.gov/lead/renovation-repair-and-pai...

    but as landlords they have to distribute the pamphlets and disclosure statement. https://www.epa.gov/lead/real-estate-disclosure#pr...

    but based on what @Julie Dillon posted, these are replacement windows and the only " flashing" detail that the manufacturer may require is that they are caulked in. just sounds like this Inspector is being a real PIA.

  • Patrick LiskaPro Member
    Investor · Verona, NJ · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 832 votes
    9y

    @Will G., sounds like you have had a bad experience your self, as for @Manolo D. and myself we are both Contractors from different States with different Construction Codes. If you know the codes and know the Inspectors you do not run into problems. Building Inspectors main job is to enforce the codes which are based on safety, if you don't do it right, you will have trouble with the Inspectors, they are only doing their job.

  • Investor · Union, NJ · Member since 2011 · 838 posts · 295 votes
    9y

    Good Lord!!! What a nightmare! These are windows, not boilers and or Water heaters!!!!!!!

    Good luck to OP!!

    Chris

  • Brainerd, MN · Member since 2016 · 8 posts · 2 votes
    9y

    Because we did remove the interior frame but did not disturb the exterior this was considered a new window install.  If we had left the existing frame in place no flashing would have been required.  We did have to remove the sill and insert flashing on bottom and around lower edges.  Inspector did work with us on that.  We did one window and he said it was fine.  Now the final inspection for all windows is tomorrow...

  • Patrick LiskaPro Member
    Investor · Verona, NJ · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 832 votes
    9y

    @Julie Dillon, glad you got it resolved, good luck with your inspection. one to keep in your memory for the next investment.

  • Contractor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2015 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Brian Pulaski:

    @Manolo D. I can see the liability on a window, as if it wasn't done just right, it can leak and cause damage. With that said, they should have a standard installation procedure in writing, and that is what is usually followed when installed. 

    Has the inspector indicated what kind of flashing he is looking for? A replacement window that goes into an existing frame, I can't picture how it would be flashed from the exterior... See what the building official is looking for.

     There is, and there is a whole section of the greenbook on minimum requirements when manufacturer does not. Most reputable manufacturer will always have their installation system that will always exceed the books, in this case, the inspector is looking for that, meaning it doesn't meet neither manufacturer nor minimum standards.

  • Contractor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2015 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Julie Dillon:

    Because we did remove the interior frame but did not disturb the exterior this was considered a new window install.  If we had left the existing frame in place no flashing would have been required.  We did have to remove the sill and insert flashing on bottom and around lower edges.  Inspector did work with us on that.  We did one window and he said it was fine.  Now the final inspection for all windows is tomorrow...

     Yes, that is what we or I have guessed, you removed part of the frame hence the inspector wants the flashing to protect the wood below it.  In one job, I did 3" on the sides for flashing, custom made it. Make sure the elastomeric caulking bead is good and thick, so water does not go in to your flashing, and it should slope to go outside.

  • Contractor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2015 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Will G.:

    This is how turned around things are, op working on his OWN PROPERTY, he is not contracting for others. So how far do we let this go? Unelected "officials" left to interpret code and order us to do whatever they want, no matter how stupid. 

    @Manolo D. @Patrick Liska I wish you guys would push back instead of laying down for this abuse. The last 20 years this issue has only gone in one direction,  and now I can't even change my own toilet without a permit and there are no guidelines for these inspectors misuse of power. The head of my building dept will defer any controversial issues to whatever pleases the inspector. I can hardly imagine what california must be like. Here, individual contractors are turning down jobs that require permits because of the power mad inspectors. So disgustingly sad to watch our system turn predatory, and see people get failed inspections every time so  they can get an extra $80 on reinspect.

     I hear you, you don't have to be a CEO to be an employee for a company either. To me, inspectors are simply workers they are there to enforce the code, the same as mayors, they simply run the city. Have you ever thought of the other way around? Let's say texas, they don't have real GCs, people just tell customers they are contractors and they know what they are doing, but in reality, they are youtube contractors, they rely on youtube on how to hang drywall. Is that the kind of quality you want for your state? Let's say we take off that license requirements, and everyone can repair a toilet, let's say you'll have to call someone every 3 months because the guy you hired saw a youtube video on how to do it, will that be acceptable? Or let's say you have a roof leak, and you hire someone to repair it, every month you have to hire him or look for someone else to repair again and again because it leaks and leaks, no regulations, no requirements, no licenses are required; how will that affect you as a consumer? 

  • Severna Park, MD · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    9y

    Luckly in Maryland , no permit or inspection is required for replacement windows . But you have to follow the lead laws . Since there is no permit or inspection  guess how many follow the lead laws ?   

  • Rental Property Investor · Maryville, TN · Member since 2009 · 529 posts · 414 votes
    9y

    @Manolo D. I appreciate your perspective and I am just glad this is even being discussed. I certainly am not in favor of zero oversight, but there is a grand canyon between an inspector who is friendly, helpful, will let me drive a missed nail into a hanger while he waits and generally takes a parental attitude and those who view the position as an opportunity to express authority and control and beat folks up for all fees possible. The emotional toll of the latter type creates hatred and mistrust. Aren't we basically experiencing this same issue nationally with the police? Please remember the government was intended as a servant. Like all things in the universe a balance is required for a healthy environment and my county is way off kilter in this area, presently.

    On the texas gc comment I would have to respectfully disagree(somewhat). I lived and worked outside austin and came to the area with a gc licence from another state. No one cared much for my credentials but did care greatly about the reputation of the contractor's being used. If you weren't being referred by someone AND had a multiyear history in the local area, you are having a tough time getting work. I saw some weird, crazy, unique homes there but never heard of an epidemic of structures falling down or people getting killed or electrocuted etc. It seems in the absence of the nanny state(no permit texas) folks are forced to think for themselves. 

    At the end of the day I just wish the government was helpful and fostered an internal attitude of being a partner and not a dungeon master. Crazy, I know.

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