Hardwood floors for newbie DIYer.
Rental Property Investor · St Louis, MO · Member since 2010 · 317 posts · 72 votes
Hardwood floors for newbie DIYer.
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Investor · Memphis, TN · Member since 2016 · 279 posts · 257 votes
9y@Elizabeth Wilson - ok, family getting in on the same conversation here. Elizabeth and I used to own this business- we sold it in 2012: Floor Craft Sanding. Just follow the link and you'll see what we used to do for a living. I was also a National Wood Flooring Association hardwood flooring inspector. I'd go to problem jobs and determine "who done it?". I have refinished millions of square feet of hardwood flooring- no exaggeration. That being said- I still do not sand my own floors.
Here's why, in order of importance:
1) The equipment you can rent vs. the equipment you buy. The stuff you rent is 110v lightweight equipment. It doesn't cut like a 220v heavyweight piece of equipment can. And nobody rents the good stuff. You can spends DAYS doing what would otherwise take a pro with the right tools just a few short hours. I know how to run a drum sander- and this stuff just won't do the job. Trust me, I've tried. We fixed loads of DIY attempts at sanding a floor. Also, I don't own any of the equipment anymore- so it makes hiring it out a no-brainer for me.
2) Your sand job is going to suck. Sorry mate. It's true. There's a lot to know about how to finish a floor properly and make it look good. And the more you attempt to make it look good with inferior equipment, the more its going to suck. I know how to finish a floor properly- and my sand jobs suck with bad equipment.
3) It's a killer job. There are guys here in Memphis that I can get to sand and stain w/ 2 coats (3 is better) of poly for less than $2 a sq ft. That's below what my cost used to be when I was in business. Another reason to hire it out.
Lets run some assumptions here:
lets say you have 1000 sq ft- that's $2k if you're paying $2 sq ft. Then start subtracting your cost of materials:
$8 each belt (*10) = $80
.75 cents each edger disc= $75.
5 gallons of poly= $200 (if you're buying decent poly).
2 gallons stain = $80
4 screens $30
Buffer, drum, edger rental $350 or more
Now you're fast approaching $800 in materials and rental equipment, plus your 4 days of labor and opportunity cost. (side note: What happens if you're heads down in sanding dust when another opportunity passes you by that could have made you another 20k instead? But you didn't see it because you wanted to save money on your flooring job).
So if a pro costs you 2k and you can do it for $800 is it worth the $1200 in savings? Maybe. Maybe there are no opportunity costs. Maybe this is your first run at flipping or renting and you want to know it front to back. Go for it. You'll figure it out. And hey- maybe you're just really good at stuff like this and it will turn out amazing. I've seen it, but off all the DIY jobs- I've only seen it once, maybe twice that it actually looked professional grade. Also- is this a flip or a rental? If rental- I may not even bother with sanding them- depending on the price of the rental. It may behoove you to paint them a brown color and slap some poly on them. That's way less labor and $ intensive, and you can certainly do that yourself and for the most part-rental location and $ dependent- it won't matter. Just food for thought. And to answer your initial question, How to refinish a wood floor. This is the manual produced by the NWFA. Sort of lame really to be honest, but if you skim through it you may end up with some nuggets that will help you sand the floors! All the best and let us know how it goes!
34 Replies
We've rented a drum sander from Home Depot, started with 40 grit, then 60-80, finished with 100 grit. Also rented an edger since the drum sander doesn't hit the edges. The edger also uses the same number grit of paper. The edger was MUCH harder for me to use that the drum sander as it's one powerful stinker and you're bending over a lot so it's really hard on the lower back.
The trickiest part of the drum sander is not to keep it moving when you reach the end of each sweep of the floor or you'll end up with lots of dips. Just walk along steadily as you use it.
When you're finished vacuum, vacuum, vacuum and then vacuum some more before staining.
Honestly, the last couple of times I've done this I've skipped the stain and just done the polyurethane. I like using the oil based Varnathane. I'll put down three coats using the clear or satin base. The Varnathane tends to darken the wood a bit. By the third coat it's beautiful. I wrap the roller/brush I use in an old bag and store it in the freezer between coats so it doesn't dry out and I can keep using it again until I'm through with the process.
If you rent the sander pick up a ton of the grit paper. You can return what you don't use and they'll give you a refund on this.
I hope this helps.
Gail
- 9yJulie MarquezPro MemberInvestor · Skagit County, WA · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 807 votes
http://www.thegritandpolish.com/?s=sand+floors
Read up on these people who refinished their own hardwood floors.
I refinished a floor myself several years ago. I used the same approach that Gail used. I also preferred the clear finish. It did darken the end results a little and I loved how it brought out all the natural lines and texture in the wood. The stains and marks just added to the character. It was hard work but definitely worth it. If you go clear and don't like it, it is easier to go darker later, than it would be if you go with the dark stain first.
Good luck!
Kim
- Real Estate Investor · Evansville, IN · Member since 2017 · 3 posts · 1 vote9y
Definitely try it yourself just go slow until you get the hang of it.
A few quick tips....
Check the thickness of your floors, I have had several old homes that used a very thin hardwood. I have always been successful in refinishing them though.
Starting with an aggressive grit basically cuts into the floor and gets rid of the finish that on them. If you try to skip a step and use a finer grit it will just gum up and you will spend a lot in paper. Its scary looking when you drop that drum down with a 40 grit but just go with it, the following other grits clean it up nicely.
Edgers are tough to use but are necessary, just be careful and go slow when using it. It is easy to cut into the floors and make them very uneven on the edges. The edgers are very powerful and they do not sit evenly on the flooring surface like an orbital sander would.
Most of the time I have used a dark stain as it will hide the discolored areas.
Consider using a sanding sealer. I have not used them in the past but kind of wish I did, especially with oak. It fills in all the low spots of the grain to give a very smooth finish. You would likely be happy with your results either way. Maybe test out an area or use some scraps.
Good luck
- Real Estate Investor · Memphis, TN · Member since 2016 · 940 posts · 695 votes9y
We owned a hardwood flooring company for years and I'd suggest at least getting some estimates from local companies before doing the work yourself. It might be cheaper than you'd expect and they will be able to offer you options on quality of finishes. (assuming this is a rental, some of the higher-grade commercial finishes would work better in high traffic areas and might keep you from having to screen and recoat as often as you would).
Even after owning this company for years, my husband still hires out our refinishing projects because of the higher quality commercial equipment and finishes. That and sanding, staining and/or coating is a heck of a job!
Best of luck!
- Medford, OR · Member since 2016 · 114 posts · 70 votes9y
This comment is coming from a diy addict. I agree with @Elizabeth Wilson, I have done a few floors and now know enough that for me it is best to sub out refinishing floors. Picking up the equipment is a hassle, returning the equipment is a hassle, doing the floor is a hassle.
In addition you buy what you finish, in other words you have 0 warranty on the floors. This also includes the quality of the finish and longevity of the product.
If you botch it up you own it. If the sub botches it they own it.
Do not pay in full until you are satisfied with the job.
- Rental Property Investor · St Louis, MO · Member since 2010 · 317 posts · 72 votes9y
@Elizabeth Wilson We've got estimates that have been ranging between $1700 and $2300. I'd like to get a feel for doing this job myself, even if I don't save a whole lot. When you say it is a heck of a job, is it because it is tedious? Because it is messy? Back aches? It takes too long?
@Account Closed I'm putting your post's words into Evernote. From my picture, the 40-grit will get rid of that grayness?
- Medford, OR · Member since 2016 · 114 posts · 70 votes9y
Paul, There are two items I hate, refinishing floors and sheetrock. When it comes to flooring if I am installing wood I always go pre finished, when your done your done.
I have a guy that through the years I have fed so much work he always gives me a good bro deal on my drywall needs.
Other than those two things and anything else that would require a licensed trade person to do, I do.
If I am flipping my own residence which I have done every two years for the last twenty years, I do everything except the two items I hate.
- Flipper · Kansas City, MO · Member since 2017 · 24 posts · 37 votes9y
You need to rent a drum sander and an edger, and a TON of paper. 40, 60, 80, 100, 120 finish. Vacuum after EVERY grit. If you do not do this you will end up with gouges.
Sand the edges, then the field, then vacuum, then move to next higher grit.
The 20 or 40 grit is for stain removal, and leveling. If you run over the entire floor and notice you have stain remaining, its usually uneven. In which case go over the floor diagonally, or criss cross pattern type thing to help remove and level the floor. (Hard to type this out, but you can view it on a youtube pattern) You may need to go Cross and diagonal if things are in really bad shape.
If you end up with swirls on the eges (it will happen) you need to redo it with the grit lower, then same grit, then continue. Going directly to the next finer will not remove the swirls. So if you swirl on 60, you need to go back over with 40, then 60, then continue on.
Keep the machines moving.
If you have divots, save some dust. It makes a great filler prior to staining.
A word of caution on dark stain...Our first house had urine stains(very dark, cannot remove without replacing) we decided to go back with a chocolate stain. It looks AMAZING for exactly 10mins. Thats it. Be prepared to demand shoes off at all times, and I highly recommend walk rugs/area rugs for ALL high traffic areas.
YouTube is your friend.
If you think you've bought enough sand paper, double it. Then prepare to need more.
Doing this properly will make your finish kick ***. Short cutting it will show. It is very time consuming especially when you have heavily damaged floors. Just suck it up and be in it from start to finish.
- Investor · Queensbury, NY · Member since 2016 · 34 posts · 4 votes9yPaul Winka Hi Paul, If the floors don't have a lot of cupping or deep scratches, I have rented what I call a "square buff" sander from Home Depot and been quite pleased. It's similar to a large random orbital sander. It gets close enough to the walls that I've never needed to use an edger. It comes with a selection of different grit papers, same deal, return unused for refund. Very simple to use, in fact you could have a cup of coffee in one hand and use the other to run the sander. I usually save my last sheet of paper and the giant scotchbright pad to start my next floor with in the future. Not sure if this sander is available everywhere, but its way better than a drum sander imo if the floor is not beat up too bad. I use this same sander for sanding new hw also.
- Flipper/Rehabber · Montgomery, NY · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes9y
I think I pay $1.50/SF for sanding and refinish, including stain. It takes them 4-5 days. In my opinion it is worth paying for this, as it would probably take me longer than that to do and wouldn't look as good.
- Real Estate Investor · Washington, DC · Member since 2014 · 236 posts · 328 votes9y
@Paul Winka If you've never done it before, instead of the drum sander get the random orbital sander. The drum sander is quicker, but you can gut large gouges in the floor if you do it wrong. The random orbital sander is like a giant palm sander instead of a rotating drum. It goes a lot slower, but it's great for DIYer's because it's pretty much fool proof.
- Investor · Memphis, TN · Member since 2016 · 279 posts · 257 votes9y
@Elizabeth Wilson - ok, family getting in on the same conversation here. Elizabeth and I used to own this business- we sold it in 2012: Floor Craft Sanding. Just follow the link and you'll see what we used to do for a living. I was also a National Wood Flooring Association hardwood flooring inspector. I'd go to problem jobs and determine "who done it?". I have refinished millions of square feet of hardwood flooring- no exaggeration. That being said- I still do not sand my own floors.
Here's why, in order of importance:
1) The equipment you can rent vs. the equipment you buy. The stuff you rent is 110v lightweight equipment. It doesn't cut like a 220v heavyweight piece of equipment can. And nobody rents the good stuff. You can spends DAYS doing what would otherwise take a pro with the right tools just a few short hours. I know how to run a drum sander- and this stuff just won't do the job. Trust me, I've tried. We fixed loads of DIY attempts at sanding a floor. Also, I don't own any of the equipment anymore- so it makes hiring it out a no-brainer for me.
2) Your sand job is going to suck. Sorry mate. It's true. There's a lot to know about how to finish a floor properly and make it look good. And the more you attempt to make it look good with inferior equipment, the more its going to suck. I know how to finish a floor properly- and my sand jobs suck with bad equipment.
3) It's a killer job. There are guys here in Memphis that I can get to sand and stain w/ 2 coats (3 is better) of poly for less than $2 a sq ft. That's below what my cost used to be when I was in business. Another reason to hire it out.
Lets run some assumptions here:
lets say you have 1000 sq ft- that's $2k if you're paying $2 sq ft. Then start subtracting your cost of materials:
$8 each belt (*10) = $80
.75 cents each edger disc= $75.
5 gallons of poly= $200 (if you're buying decent poly).
2 gallons stain = $80
4 screens $30
Buffer, drum, edger rental $350 or more
Now you're fast approaching $800 in materials and rental equipment, plus your 4 days of labor and opportunity cost. (side note: What happens if you're heads down in sanding dust when another opportunity passes you by that could have made you another 20k instead? But you didn't see it because you wanted to save money on your flooring job).
So if a pro costs you 2k and you can do it for $800 is it worth the $1200 in savings? Maybe. Maybe there are no opportunity costs. Maybe this is your first run at flipping or renting and you want to know it front to back. Go for it. You'll figure it out. And hey- maybe you're just really good at stuff like this and it will turn out amazing. I've seen it, but off all the DIY jobs- I've only seen it once, maybe twice that it actually looked professional grade. Also- is this a flip or a rental? If rental- I may not even bother with sanding them- depending on the price of the rental. It may behoove you to paint them a brown color and slap some poly on them. That's way less labor and $ intensive, and you can certainly do that yourself and for the most part-rental location and $ dependent- it won't matter. Just food for thought. And to answer your initial question, How to refinish a wood floor. This is the manual produced by the NWFA. Sort of lame really to be honest, but if you skim through it you may end up with some nuggets that will help you sand the floors! All the best and let us know how it goes!
- Rock Star Extraordinaire · Northeast, TN · Member since 2015 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes9y
Thoughts:
1. This job sucks. I have done a lot of floors in my life and I hate it. You will wear a dust mask non-stop for hours. Dust will soak into your eyeballs, the microscopic stuff. Dust will be on everything, in every room. You'll need to turn your HVAC system off, so hope it is moderate temperatures. Edging will kick your *** - your back and your hamstrings will scream. The drum sander will create low spots everywhere if you don't keep moving and move at a consistent pace.
2. Have I convinced you to let someone else do it? No? Ok, then. Get the best dustmask you can find, a comfortable one, because you are going to be wearing it for a long time. Seal off any room that is not getting sanded with a plastic 'curtain'. If you don't dust will be in every room, whether your heat is on or off won't matter. Use a moderate grit sandpaper the first time out with the drum sander until you get the feel of using it. And use the highest grit that will take the finish clean when you are starting out. I would start with 36 and if that's not very effective go down to 18. Buy a set of knee pads and do the edging on your knees. If it's a small area, it's easier to get an even stain finish if you do it by hand with a staining rag and pull off all the excess stain as you put it down rather than using a squeege/roller.
The trickiest part of getting it right is sanding evenly, staining evenly, and keeping crap out of the poly.
Skyline Properties - Rental Property Investor · St Louis, MO · Member since 2010 · 317 posts · 72 votes9y
After this thread, I am leaning toward hiring it out, even if the highest and best use of my time would be staring at a wall LOL @Sam Wilson you mentioned that the rental equipment is 110V, but professionals use 220V. Does this just effect the timeliness or does it effect the quality of the job too?
@Sam Wilson @JD Martin @Jill F. What are some good questions before hiring out that I can ask to get a quality job? Vetting questions, if you will..
And, would you recommend not negotiating the overall price of the job by having the guy take a look, but just a agree on a price per sq ft? Just ask how much per sq ft over the phone?
- Investor · Memphis, TN · Member since 2016 · 279 posts · 257 votes9y
@Paul Winka, the voltage is only part of the equation. It just so happens that 220v equipment is heavier (2x or more), has way more torque on the drum (and thus sanding capability) and is a different grade than what you can rent. The weight, believe it or not is a big deal. It keeps chatter and drum marks down and improves sanding speed and quality tremendously. However, adding weight only to a 110v unit won't work either because it will just stop turning the drum and get bogged down.
Questions:
How many coats of finish?
What type of finish (oil or water)
Do you have dustless capability? Dustless trailer? Vac systems?
do you abrade between all coats or just 2nd and 3rd?
Cost diff between natural and stained finish?
Do you remove and reset trim (quarter round or shoemold)? If so, who paints it or stains it when it is reset?
Do you hang plastic over all major openings?
Do you shut off HVAC system during sanding?
Get the price of the job in writing, along with number of coats and timeline.
hope this helps,
sam
@Paul Winka I should have mentioned I get that price for a couple of reasons:
- I have hired the same company many times and I don't even bother to get quotes.
- I hire a kid to rip up the carpet and pull all the staples and carpet tack strips before the floor refinisher gets there. (And I make sure said kid does a good job because staples tear up the sandpaper belts).
I would try to find someone whose primary business is refinishing work. I would ask the floor refinisher how many floors he has done locally, what electricity requirements are for his equipment (220V), and ask for local references and pictures.
He should ask you if you know the type of wood, if the floor is solid floor or a veneer, he should want to see the floor if he is quoting it after carpet removal, he should ask you about availability of 220v or access to circuit box (he installs temp 220v breaker). He should be able to give you suggestions for stain color to compliment existing woodwork (you won't be able to "match" old varnish). He should be able to tell you if the floor is in good enought shape to refinish and if old pet stains will be completely removed. You can go with a darker stain color to "blend in" old pet stains.
Here is a picture of a floor I recently had redone by Firis floor refinishing in a 90 year old building the wood was in decent shape with some moderate dark spots from pet stains:
- Rock Star Extraordinaire · Northeast, TN · Member since 2015 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes9y
Originally posted by @Paul Winka:
After this thread, I am leaning toward hiring it out, even if the highest and best use of my time would be staring at a wall LOL @Sam Wilson you mentioned that the rental equipment is 110V, but professionals use 220V. Does this just effect the timeliness or does it effect the quality of the job too?
@Sam Wilson @JD Martin @Jill F. What are some good questions before hiring out that I can ask to get a quality job? Vetting questions, if you will..
And, would you recommend not negotiating the overall price of the job by having the guy take a look, but just a agree on a price per sq ft? Just ask how much per sq ft over the phone?
I never negotiate jobs piecemeal any more. I always price it for the job. Then if the guy's sander breaks down, or he has to go to the more expensive store for sandpaper, or helper #2 didn't show up, it's their problem (and cost), not yours. Let them figure out how much padding they need on the front end, because there's always going to be cost padding somewhere. Then there's no surprises, and if there is, unless it's material to the job - i.e. something that couldn't be predicted about the floors beforehand - it comes out of their profit.
Skyline Properties - Investor · Oak Park, IL · Member since 2014 · 316 posts · 150 votes9y
I agree with @Elizabeth Wilson. I once had to refinish the hardwood floors in a couple of rooms in an apartment. I had to rent the equipment for two days instead of one because I was not able to get the hang of it the first day, so I had to rent it a second day. The polyurethane finish cost was also expensive and I had a lot left over. For what I spent, for a little more I could have hired someone. I have always been pleased with the quality of the work of the professional sanders, their work is much better than my one. However, your results may well be better.
- Rental Property Investor · St Louis, MO · Member since 2010 · 317 posts · 72 votes9y
@Sam Wilson You summed it up quite well with how to size up a contractor for this job. The questions you ask are more of implications that the job that I want done will include all of what you mentioned rather than a request. I mean, who would want dust particles in their HVAC ducting?
@Jill F. The price per s.f. is just a rule of thumb then.
I am going to revisit this post when it is all done to talk about lessons learned and share pictures. Thanks all...this thread has been educational and has helped me make a decision already to hire it out.
- Real Estate Investor · Belvidere, IL · Member since 2017 · 3 posts · 0 votes9y
In the past I refinished the hardwood floors myself. If it your first time use the orbital sander and stay away from the drum sander. With that being said now I hire someone to do it. The job turns out nicer and you are only spending a little more than the cost of materials. Get a quote from a contractor my guy does his for $1.50.
- Property Manager · St. John, IN · Member since 2017 · 67 posts · 30 votes9y
The hardest part of re-finishing the floor is getting good machines and getting used to using them. If you do it yourself, i would suggest starting in the most inconspicuous area possible. Also rented tools can be out of alignment and a first time user wouldn't know the signs. It may not even be obvious you've made mistakes until the stain is applied and the mistakes are magnified.
I would suggest using light a stain as possible. Dark stain will grab on uneven spots or poorly sanded areas and will stick out like a sore thumb once the stain is applied.
I would also really suggest getting some estimates. 2.00 per s/f is the benchmark in my market. You can get some nice looking prefinished engineered wood floor for 2.50-3.00 a s/f around here. That would be a lot easier to install as a DIY guy so if you have the money to purchase new product maybe that's the way to go? Engineered wood floors are 3/8" - 1/2" thick so some simple reducers should take care of floor level changes.
Cheers and good luck.
- Yelm, WA · Member since 2017 · 23 posts · 20 votes9y
I am biased (sorry for my rant) but hardwood floor refinishing is NOT for the DIY. I am a NWFA Master Craftsman and NWFA Certified Installer, Sand & Finisher. I have seen and redone many jobs done by homeowners, contractors and even so called "professionals". Some of these guys should be tarred and feathered for the work that they tried to pass off. I've been doing hardwood flooring only for 18 years and I still have jobs that don't go right. There are many factors involved and it takes years just to get decent at it, not something you can learn off of Youtube and a weekend. Besides the finishes available to the general public won't last as long as professional grade finishes. Also if you are paying under $2/ft you're getting ripped off. I don't even get out of bed for less than $3.00/ft and then that has to be a cake job. Most of my refinish jobs average $4.50-$6.00/ft. I'm not making a killing at that price point, good equipment, finishes, and a final result is expensive. Yes you may consider it expensive but I do work for a couple of investors and they see the value in the services I provide. I had one tell me "see that house across the street, that guy is flipping it, he'll spend less than I will fixing this one up, but mine will be nicer and I'll sell it faster and make more money and provide a higher quality product to the buyer." The investors I partner with do get volume pricing, they treat me fairly and I treat them fairly and give excellent service. If I had rentals I would have wood flooring with a high quality commercial grade waterbased finish. I have 7 kids and a dog, we entertain 30-40 people on Sunday's and that's what I have it holds up well. You can get a decent job done for $3/ft
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