BRRRR - How do you guys eat?

BRRRR - How do you guys eat?

Real Estate Investor · Springfield, MO · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes

This question is for the folks who Buy cheap, Rehab fully, Rent, Refi, and Repeat (BRRRR strategy). I want to know how you make it work. Here's an example of what I'm talking about:

Purchase price: $10,000

Rehab (everything new): $40,000

Total "all in": $50,000 (fully financed, 15 year note, 5%)

Rent: $650/month.

If I apply my normal formulas to it....

10% maintenance (-$65)

10% management (-$65)

Taxes and Insurance (-$70)

5% CapEx (-$35)

NOI: $415

Less debt service (-$395)

Profit: $20/month.

We haven't factored in vacancy.

These are real numbers I'm getting from some investors in my market. Their rent to "all in" ratio is much lower than what I want, but somehow they use this strategy to get up to 100 houses. Interesting strategy, and in spite of my debt-averse nature I am simply curious about how they make it work.

No cash flow, or very little.

Let's say no maintenance at first and self-managers get to keep the management fee, leaving $150/month ($1,800/year) profit on a $50,000 asset. That's 3.6% return on capital and leaves no room for error. One vacancy every 2-3 years would devour most, if not all, of the profits.

If a person owned 20 of these houses, yearly income ($36,000) is about as as much as the manager of the local Video Rental store, but it comes with $1,000,000 in debt.

15 years is long time to carry around a deal that is essentially all equity and bare minimum cash flow. How do these folks eat?

Are my numbers wrong? Investors who follow a similar path to this example, what's missing in this picture? What am I not understanding about this model?

I am genuinely curious to understand this model. I've asked some of the local investors who claim they do this, but answers are vague.

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Rental Property Investor · East Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
8y
Originally posted by @Erik W.:

This question is for the folks who Buy cheap, Rehab fully, Rent, Refi, and Repeat (BRRRR strategy). I want to know how you make it work. Here's an example of what I'm talking about:

Purchase price: $10,000

Rehab (everything new): $40,000

Total "all in": $50,000 (fully financed, 15 year note, 5%)

Rent: $650/month.

If I apply my normal formulas to it....

10% maintenance (-$65)

10% management (-$65)

Taxes and Insurance (-$70)

5% CapEx (-$35)

NOI: $415

Less debt service (-$395)

Profit: $20/month.

We haven't factored in vacancy.

These are real numbers I'm getting from some investors in my market. Their rent to "all in" ratio is much lower than what I want, but somehow they use this strategy to get up to 100 houses. Interesting strategy, and in spite of my debt-averse nature I am simply curious about how they make it work.

No cash flow, or very little.

Let's say no maintenance at first and self-managers get to keep the management fee, leaving $150/month ($1,800/year) profit on a $50,000 asset. That's 3.6% return on capital and leaves no room for error. One vacancy every 2-3 years would devour most, if not all, of the profits.

If a person owned 20 of these houses, yearly income ($36,000) is about as as much as the manager of the local Video Rental store, but it comes with $1,000,000 in debt.

15 years is long time to carry around a deal that is essentially all equity and bare minimum cash flow. How do these folks eat?

Are my numbers wrong? Investors who follow a similar path to this example, what's missing in this picture? What am I not understanding about this model?

I am genuinely curious to understand this model. I've asked some of the local investors who claim they do this, but answers are vague.

I think what you're describing is a massive wealth building plan vs a eat well on cash flow as you go plan. You described my plan although I don't brrrr much because I hate the fees and PITA of it. Been doing this 15 yrs and the loans are just falling off. Dropping like flies.

If you are getting back every dollar invested (which I have over time, too) and the tenants are paying off your houses every 15 years, then work a w2 to eat if you need to. In my case my wife has a w2 for the basics. In the end you'll have 15, 30 or however many paid off houses in your 40s, right? That's me, too. 

Don't let the how do I live richly while I go thought get in your way of building multi generational wealth. That is my why but your interests and mileage may vary.

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Realtor · Austin, TX · Member since 2018 · 68 posts · 16 votes
    8y

    @Erik W., it just comes down to the numbers for each specific house if you get a good enough buy on it. If you can get it at a low enough price as either a distressed property, a distressed seller, or a combination of the two, rehab it and rent it out accordingly, there can certainly be nice cash flow, but quality BRRRR deals aren't easy to come by and it takes a lot of weeding to find a good one. The money will be made on the buy.

    Here are numbers I'm planning on for a BRRRR, I've made my offer and if accepted it should work out nicely. Seller needs to get the house of her back asap due to a family situation, and a little work to be done.

    I am financing the down payment, closing costs, and rehab through a private lender on a $20,000 loan at 9%.

    Purchase Price: 85,000 (5,000 down, and 6% interest only payments to seller for 6 months until refinance)

    Rehab: 7,000 contracted out to my GC

    ARV: 145,000

    Rent: 1,550 per month

    During the first 6 months I will cash flow ~$275:

    Vacancy (5%) - 77.50

    CapEx (5%) - 77.50

    Repairs (5%) - 77.50

    Garbage - 50

    Interest Payments to Seller - 425

    Interest Payments to Private Lender - 150

    Insurance - 80

    Taxes - 333

    After a 6 month seasoning period, I will refinance for 105,000, again ARV is 145,000, so 72% of the ARV (I can refinance up to 80%, leaving me some wiggle room if needed). The refi will be roughly 5.25% interest on a 30 yr term. This refi will cash out the seller and private lender.

    After that, all expenses are the same except for my mortgage payment, which will be $596, and I will cash flow $257 per month. 

    All for $5,000 down and, $2500 of closing costs and $7,000 worth of rehab, from a private lender, so none of my own capital involved for this deal.

    If I did a 15 yr term refi, my cash flow would be gone and I'd be losing money. So it's important to find an institution that will refi for longer periods, as has already been mentioned.

  • Investor · Richmond, VA · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    8y

    @Erik W.,

    I'll throw out my opinion, as we have a rental that we get $650/mo, it's a cute 2/1, 628 sq ft.    

    Biggest difference is we paid $13K, and did a basic renovation for $10K...  we ourselves did the majority of the work with a few helpers, and I think it came out great!   I will absolutely agree with you, in that if you  did what your numbers suggested, it'd be a poor investment choice, but hey, it might make sense to someone else!

  • Investor · United States · Member since 2015 · 415 posts · 487 votes
    8y

    @Erik W. the BRRR numbers in your original post don't sound feasible to me. Here are the numbers on a BRRR duplex I am just finishing:

    Purchase: $85,000
    Rehab and holding costs: $25,000
    Rent: $1820 

    I am refinancing on a 30-year fixed and expect the appraisal to come in around $150,000, so my monthly payment will be around $750. BRRR is a great strategy, but the rent-to-price ratio needs to be higher than the numbers in your post to make it a worthwhile investment.

  • Senior Network Engineer · Castle Rock, CO · Member since 2018 · 53 posts · 30 votes
    8y

    @Alexander Felice

    @Alexander Felice Hey so I read your blog on your deals. Is it this blog post you're quoting above? http://brokeisachoice.com/2018/01/12/rental-4-or-h...

    I really love how you broke everything down from your analysys down to the steps you took and the thought process you went through to get to your final product. You should post some of those on this community (or link to it) as I'm sure it'll help a lot of beginning investors like me to follow a real world example.

  • Senior Network Engineer · Castle Rock, CO · Member since 2018 · 53 posts · 30 votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Jim D.:

    @Erik W. the BRRR numbers in your original post don't sound feasible to me. Here are the numbers on a BRRR duplex I am just finishing:

    Purchase: $85,000
    Rehab and holding costs: $25,000
    Rent: $1820 

    I am refinancing on a 30-year fixed and expect the appraisal to come in around $150,000, so my monthly payment will be around $750. BRRR is a great strategy, but the rent-to-price ratio needs to be higher than the numbers in your post to make it a worthwhile investment.

    @James Marshall Those are great looking numbers. Is that the norm where you invest in or is it the exception?

  • Investor · United States · Member since 2015 · 415 posts · 487 votes
    8y

    @Gerard J. that one was probably an above average deal, but those are out there if you're patient enough and can offer with cash. The rents and ARV both came in about 10% higher than I expected due to neighborhood appreciation, so some part was just good luck.

  • Carlstadt, NJ · Member since 2017 · 41 posts · 14 votes
    8y

    I Think we are missing the point What @Erik W. is doing is not BRRR even in the imaginary scenario, because the second R is refinancing, and he said he doesn't want to leverage, so for Erick, a Better investment would be index funds that average an 8% return. As no debt investment, I think Real Estate might not be the best Vehicle.

  • Andrew SyriosPro Member
    Moderator
    Residential Real Estate Investor · Kansas City, MO · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    8y

    BRRRR is a long term strategy. You will probably either need to have some money in reserves, work a job while doing this or flip/wholesale some for money to live off of. In the meantime, you grow your portfolio of BRRRR properties and eventually, they will appreciate enough and you will pay off enough principal to have a lot of wealth. All the while, the cash flow per month will accumulate. Real estate is a get rich slow scheme.

  • Real Estate Investor · Springfield, MO · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    8y

    @Luiny Tavares....  Heh, you're partially right (I don't like debt), but also partially wrong....  I presently have more rentals than I have fingers and toes, and no, I'm not shop teacher (wink).  I'm an avid real estate investor who uses an uncommon approach.  I started out buying with debt like many did, got sick of it, then decided to move forward as a wholetaler for a while buying cheap dumps and flipping them to full-on rehabbers.  I used the proceeds from wholetaling to build up a war chest to buy more rentals that I fixed up and kept for income.  It's definitely a slower process than if I borrowed on everything, but it has worked out pretty well so far.

    I'm also doing way better than 8% index funds with my Roth IRA and 401K. Anyone with Internet access can find better funds. Mine are averaging 10.7% over the past 15 years, net of fees.

    Based on most of the responses here, I believe I have my answer.  These folks I talked to are not giving me all the details.  It's what I suspected, and you all have helped me confirm.  Thanks to everyone.  You all can keep commenting of course, but I think I've learned what I asked for.  

  • Joseph ODonovanPro Member
    Property Manager · Ridley, PA · Member since 2017 · 427 posts · 449 votes
    8y
    @Erik Whiting The BRRRR scenario given to you is not a true BRRRR. Let me explain. The concept of rehabbing any property implies forced appreciation. Your scenario has zero appreciation. That's mistake #1. 100 percent financing is mistake #2. Usually, taking 75 - 80 percent cash out of ARV leaves you with 20 - 25 percent equity. Now you have skin in the game and enough cash out to do your next BRRRR. The scenario you put out is basically a $50K purchase at market price with 100 percent financing. Sorry but this is not a BRRRR.
  • Real Estate Broker · Austin, TX · Member since 2012 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    8y

    Real numbers: Purchase price $385k of a dilapidated duplex.

    Rehab costs hard money $85k

    Cash out of pocket $45k so far including down payment.

    Condo conversion on the duplex cost $3k

    Rents $5k

    Refinancing and pulling out all out money and cash flowing..currently of around $1k month. Thinking about doing short term rentals to capitalize on the tourist industry in austin.  

    Equity created a ton! Arv of $650k

    Sweat equity and sleepless nights....many!

  • Real Estate Agent · Tulsa, OK · Member since 2016 · 408 posts · 242 votes
    8y

    @Erik W.

    Preach to the choir! Sometimes, when I'm calculating my cash flow, I wonder if it's all worth it... BUT here's the thing! CASHFLOW is only one of the many wealth builders of real estate. (I'm preaching to myself right now, had a pretty rough month... I relate to @Andrew Syrios blog post, but on a smaller scale, pretty scary how similar our experiences are.. fired a contractor and one of my SFR flooded..)

    In your scenario, you can write off 40k this year, put that against your cashflow and EQUITY, your operating at a paper loss. 

    15 year mortgage, your gaining equity at a fairly decent rate and your tenant is paying it!

    Hopefully by doing renovations you forced the appreciation of the house or invested in an area that maybe is up and coming

    and then also specific to the BRRRR strategy is the REPEAT! you have 0% in the house, I keep reusing the money and the % returns get higher and higher!

  • East Stroudsburg, PA · Member since 2018 · 12 posts · 8 votes
    8y

    @Erik W. in response to not understanding maybe this will help.

    I have developed a plan with some counseling from my CPA. Bought a fixer with 2 rentals, turned it into 3 plus my place to live. The idea was rent to both mine and my wife's business, company provides living space, and other perks that are perfectly legal and rent the 1 bedroom attached to a family member. Seriously lowering tax liability (IE More Capital), business pays the bills and income from the rentals is passive (IE Lower Taxes). Purchase price was $162 with private appraisal for after repairs before purchase at $225 open market estimates are $275k we put $16,800 cash into the down payment. The entire time the intent was to up the appraisal value and refi after repairs. Take as much of the $70k+ plus in equity and buy another fixer rental. In the mean time we have cleared all CC debt to have as emergency funds if needed in addition to our cash emergency funds of 6mo of bills and living costs (basics). Our strategy is a BRRRR strategy except we are working on the new investment property while it's paid for outright with the previous properties equity, then we can leverage the available equity in that property not just the over cost equity.

    This gives us more latitude when doing repairs as the only bills are basics and there is no mortgage or private loans hanging over our heads while in the repair process because the tenant in the previous property is now paying the payments on the loan for the new house or property that is out of repair status. 

    We will also be able to adjust our initial loan request on the paid for house that will be rented before a loan is even sought. So the loan structure will suit the rent rather then needing a rent to suit the loan. Ensuring we have enough cash flow to pay for everything prior to the next loan. This also allows us time to adjust if there are any sudden market changes and reduces our out of pocket risk exposure. It also helps us ensure that our cash flow from properties remains at certain percentages after loan payments are made. I'm basing the previous houses rent to cover both the costs of the property and the estimated bills on the future purchased property. IE Lights, Heat and taxes.

    That huge debt should be being paid for by renters. My cash flow in controlled so I'm constantly building capital with the goal of buying more properties outright rather than having loans on every single house. Each house we can buy outright will allow us to start another branch on the tree. Instead of straight line each paid for house allows us to either start taking income or create another branch on the investment tree. 

    The drawback to our strategy is; It takes more time and capital to start with, around $50k in our case which a lot of people don't have or can't come up with. We stopped all erroneous spending, paid off all our cars and credit debt. So we are living tight while we put the plan into motion. It took 6mo to find the ideal first property that met our financial goals. But we are not starving.

    I think the short answer to your question is solid planning and quality help from financial advisors who can help you design a system that suits your needs. Our system isn't going to work for everyone, hell it might not work for anyone else but its working for us. We are currently in the market for our next property 6mo ahead of our desired time line because we have built more capital than expected due to our conservative numbers. 

    I don't believe there is a one size fits all strategy, each situation is going to require a solid plan and system prior to starting. Different markets, different income, different types of rentals. I believe that we all have strengths and weaknesses, play to both and build a system with solid goals, financial advice and a workable system and stick to it. I'm weak in several area's so I hire people to strengthen me in those areas. 

    I believe after years of business experience that the system is more important than all other aspects. A solid system that you have the ability and persistence to implement will carry you to your goals. If you read the responses you see that all the successful BRRRR investors have individual systems that are working for them. While the systems are not all the same, involve the same property types or even the same financial goals they are working because they have developed a system that works and they are sticking to it.

  • East Stroudsburg, PA · Member since 2018 · 12 posts · 8 votes
    8y

    Sorry didn't realize how long winded that was. The point is it works because of the system that's in place.

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