My Top 5 - 2024 Predictions in Mortgage Note / Lending Space

My Top 5 - 2024 Predictions in Mortgage Note / Lending Space

Chris SeveneyBusiness Member
Moderator
Investor · VA · Member since 2015 · 21k+ posts · 19k+ votes

Every year I like to provide some predictions on what I think will occur in the upcoming year as it relates to seller financing, mortgage note investing and the like. So here are my predictions, feel free to offer up your own:

1. We will see an increase in inventory in 2024. This is probably going to be an easy one to predict since inventory was very low in 2023. It did pick up though as the year went on. In Q1 we say about $300M worth of loans cross our desk, Q2 was about $300M/mo and Q3 and Q4 we had weeks where we saw $300M.  Toward the end of the year, we started seeing a big uptick in down payment assistance loan failures (2nd position loans under $10k to help with down payments that were in default. We saw over 5,000 of these loans alone...)

2. The bid/ask spread will close the gap, but you will not see 2018 prices again. Right now, still a decent gap between the asking price and bid price, but as property values decline and taxes and insurance increase, sellers will be more willing to sell. I would expect the reperforming loan market to stay around a 9-12% return to investors and NPL's ticking from high teens back into the 20%+ range.

3. Real estate prices will decline in most markets even if interest rates drop. Why do I say this? While there will probably be a quick bump if there is a drop in interest rates - small businesses are tightening their belts, bank liquidity is tightening as well. Throw in income has not been able to keep up with inflation and home prices and its going to give. Will it crash, I do not think so, but I do not see gains, especially in lower priced markets.

4. You will start to see significant cracks in the seller financed space.  - This one honestly, I feel is a slam dunk. Why do I say that? see #3 above. Also a significant number of people either sold on subject 2 with their low rates or did seller financing with poor underwriting on the borrower. If prices continue to fade and unemployment increases (which is going to happen), then these borrowers who have no equity will say screw it and walk away. Especially as rent rates come back down or stabilize. Saw this happen in 2010-2012. 

5. I will buy at least $30M in notes next year :) - hey had to throw one of my personal goals in there. Make sure to share yours. 

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Don KonipolBusiness Member
Investor · The Woodlands TX / Avon, CT · Member since 2009 · 6k+ posts · 10k+ votes
2y
Quote from @Chris Seveney:

Every year I like to provide some predictions on what I think will occur in the upcoming year as it relates to seller financing, mortgage note investing and the like. So here are my predictions, feel free to offer up your own:

1. We will see an increase in inventory in 2024. This is probably going to be an easy one to predict since inventory was very low in 2023. It did pick up though as the year went on. In Q1 we say about $300M worth of loans cross our desk, Q2 was about $300M/mo and Q3 and Q4 we had weeks where we saw $300M.  Toward the end of the year, we started seeing a big uptick in down payment assistance loan failures (2nd position loans under $10k to help with down payments that were in default. We saw over 5,000 of these loans alone...)

2. The bid/ask spread will close the gap, but you will not see 2018 prices again. Right now, still a decent gap between the asking price and bid price, but as property values decline and taxes and insurance increase, sellers will be more willing to sell. I would expect the reperforming loan market to stay around a 9-12% return to investors and NPL's ticking from high teens back into the 20%+ range.

3. Real estate prices will decline in most markets even if interest rates drop. Why do I say this? While there will probably be a quick bump if there is a drop in interest rates - small businesses are tightening their belts, bank liquidity is tightening as well. Throw in income has not been able to keep up with inflation and home prices and its going to give. Will it crash, I do not think so, but I do not see gains, especially in lower priced markets.

4. You will start to see significant cracks in the seller financed space.  - This one honestly, I feel is a slam dunk. Why do I say that? see #3 above. Also a significant number of people either sold on subject 2 with their low rates or did seller financing with poor underwriting on the borrower. If prices continue to fade and unemployment increases (which is going to happen), then these borrowers who have no equity will say screw it and walk away. Especially as rent rates come back down or stabilize. Saw this happen in 2010-2012. 

5. I will buy at least $30M in notes next year :) - hey had to throw one of my personal goals in there. Make sure to share yours. 

Thanks Chris.  Your reasoning sounds right on.
Here’s the reason I no longer make any predictions about real estate.
I was 100% wrong predicting what would occur from Covid 2020.  
I was 100% wrong in predicting what would happen with Bitcoin
I was 100% wrong in predicting the 2016 Presidential election

Amazingly I still increased my net worth a factor of 15 times since 2001. That’s why I believe so strongly in investing in real estate.  Where else can you be so wrong and still be so successful? 
Private Mortgage Financing Partners, LLC
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  • Ned CareyPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    2y

    @Chris Seveney 

    I agree with your #3 for a few reasons

    1) housing expense as a % of income has been rising to well aboe long term levels. This is likelyi to reverse

    2) Housing prices got greatly inflated due to historic low rates. While rate may drop they won't drop as far as the lowest rates that drove prices up so far.

    3) rent to price ratios have been going up, I believe beyond what makes sense for most people. I think we will se many landlords realize they hae paid too much.  This will be especially true for newer invesetors who jumped in the market in the last three years, 

    Since I don't do notes I won't comment on the rest. 

  • V.G JasonPro Member
    Investor · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Chris Seveney:

    Every year I like to provide some predictions on what I think will occur in the upcoming year as it relates to seller financing, mortgage note investing and the like. So here are my predictions, feel free to offer up your own:

    1. We will see an increase in inventory in 2024. This is probably going to be an easy one to predict since inventory was very low in 2023. It did pick up though as the year went on. In Q1 we say about $300M worth of loans cross our desk, Q2 was about $300M/mo and Q3 and Q4 we had weeks where we saw $300M.  Toward the end of the year, we started seeing a big uptick in down payment assistance loan failures (2nd position loans under $10k to help with down payments that were in default. We saw over 5,000 of these loans alone...)

    2. The bid/ask spread will close the gap, but you will not see 2018 prices again. Right now, still a decent gap between the asking price and bid price, but as property values decline and taxes and insurance increase, sellers will be more willing to sell. I would expect the reperforming loan market to stay around a 9-12% return to investors and NPL's ticking from high teens back into the 20%+ range.

    3. Real estate prices will decline in most markets even if interest rates drop. Why do I say this? While there will probably be a quick bump if there is a drop in interest rates - small businesses are tightening their belts, bank liquidity is tightening as well. Throw in income has not been able to keep up with inflation and home prices and its going to give. Will it crash, I do not think so, but I do not see gains, especially in lower priced markets.

    4. You will start to see significant cracks in the seller financed space.  - This one honestly, I feel is a slam dunk. Why do I say that? see #3 above. Also a significant number of people either sold on subject 2 with their low rates or did seller financing with poor underwriting on the borrower. If prices continue to fade and unemployment increases (which is going to happen), then these borrowers who have no equity will say screw it and walk away. Especially as rent rates come back down or stabilize. Saw this happen in 2010-2012. 

    5. I will buy at least $30M in notes next year :) - hey had to throw one of my personal goals in there. Make sure to share yours. 

     1. Agreed on all accounts.  Getting to point #3 on this, I think this happens artificially to a degree due to the amount of agents withholding properties in Q4 of 2023 because of seasonality. So many expired listings have told me they'll back up in March, I mean I'm talking 70-80% of them.

    2. More houses were withheld on the market than demand in 2023. I think it's a very safe bet to see the inverse true, and then when you classify demand out(the one's who are interested but cannot qualify) it'll get even wider.

    3. Agreed, but long term wise, the better markets will bounce back higher & better. 7 years +, 10 years + ideally. The trash markets will see an exodus of REI speculation.

    4. The people with balloon payments with 5% equity on an asset that barely appreciated. There's a turnkey provider with 5% down, 2 year balloon payments. They sell neighborhood specifics like that, so all of 2025 you have people racing to the bottom to get out of their loan all next door to each other. This area is the most up foonr explosi, and buying the  notes behind it for someone that can manage that process may yield as the best investment in 2024. 

    5. I intend to grab another 20-30 properties; depending on quality, price points, etc. Will enter probably 5 new markets. 

  • Member since 2019 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Chris Seveney:

    Every year I like to provide some predictions on what I think will occur in the upcoming year as it relates to seller financing, mortgage note investing and the like. So here are my predictions, feel free to offer up your own:

    1. We will see an increase in inventory in 2024. This is probably going to be an easy one to predict since inventory was very low in 2023. It did pick up though as the year went on. In Q1 we say about $300M worth of loans cross our desk, Q2 was about $300M/mo and Q3 and Q4 we had weeks where we saw $300M.  Toward the end of the year, we started seeing a big uptick in down payment assistance loan failures (2nd position loans under $10k to help with down payments that were in default. We saw over 5,000 of these loans alone...)

    2. The bid/ask spread will close the gap, but you will not see 2018 prices again. Right now, still a decent gap between the asking price and bid price, but as property values decline and taxes and insurance increase, sellers will be more willing to sell. I would expect the reperforming loan market to stay around a 9-12% return to investors and NPL's ticking from high teens back into the 20%+ range.

    3. Real estate prices will decline in most markets even if interest rates drop. Why do I say this? While there will probably be a quick bump if there is a drop in interest rates - small businesses are tightening their belts, bank liquidity is tightening as well. Throw in income has not been able to keep up with inflation and home prices and its going to give. Will it crash, I do not think so, but I do not see gains, especially in lower priced markets.

    4. You will start to see significant cracks in the seller financed space.  - This one honestly, I feel is a slam dunk. Why do I say that? see #3 above. Also a significant number of people either sold on subject 2 with their low rates or did seller financing with poor underwriting on the borrower. If prices continue to fade and unemployment increases (which is going to happen), then these borrowers who have no equity will say screw it and walk away. Especially as rent rates come back down or stabilize. Saw this happen in 2010-2012. 

    5. I will buy at least $30M in notes next year :) - hey had to throw one of my personal goals in there. Make sure to share yours. 


    Rock solid forecast

  • Chris SeveneyBusiness Member
    Moderator
    OP
    Investor · VA · Member since 2015 · 21k+ posts · 19k+ votes
    2y

    @Carlos Ptriawan

    I will add one more, everyone and their brother will start a debt fund - many will be used as an alternative to a capital call on their own real estate deal. We will see these more frequently on variable rate debt with near term maturity dates

    Of course this will put the initial investors behind the new debt on the capital stack but it’s really just adding more buckets to shovel water out of a sinking boat.

    7e investments53 Reviews
  • Real Estate Broker · Coppell, TX · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Ned Carey:

    3) rent to price ratios have been going up, I believe beyond what makes sense for most people. I think we will se many landlords realize they hae paid too much.  This will be especially true for newer invesetors who jumped in the market in the last three years, 

    and with your #3...I think we have or are creating a new class of permanent/forced renters who will never be able to buy.  When people exchange that 25-30% of income for housing expense to 40-50%, and combine that with stagnant income and increased housing costs for down payment, they'll never be able to save enough for down payment and closing costs.  They may want to buy, and really be pretty good buyers, but won't be able to bridge that gap.   Maybe also combine that with moving job market where people don't have 20-30-40 year company careers, but need to change jobs every 2-3 years now and  change locations with perhaps 401k cashouts, or more expenses that eat up savings between jobs, and moving expenses between jobs.

  • Robin SimonBusiness Member
    Lender · Austin, TX · Member since 2022 · 5k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    2y

    Good stuff - I will be interested especially in the Short Term Rental space - the constantly predicted "AirBnBust" these last two years has simply not materialized (mostly due to the fact that most of these borrowers are locked in at 30-year fixed low rate debt from '20 or '21.)

    Lot of people caught up in the hype (amateurs) maybe will look to "get out" in 2023 with a somewhat drop in rates and stableish prices - lots of professional STR investors on the sidelines ready to come in - could be a robust market again as the march toward consolidation/institutionalization of STRs continues

  • Don KonipolBusiness Member
    Investor · The Woodlands TX / Avon, CT · Member since 2009 · 6k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Chris Seveney:

    Every year I like to provide some predictions on what I think will occur in the upcoming year as it relates to seller financing, mortgage note investing and the like. So here are my predictions, feel free to offer up your own:

    1. We will see an increase in inventory in 2024. This is probably going to be an easy one to predict since inventory was very low in 2023. It did pick up though as the year went on. In Q1 we say about $300M worth of loans cross our desk, Q2 was about $300M/mo and Q3 and Q4 we had weeks where we saw $300M.  Toward the end of the year, we started seeing a big uptick in down payment assistance loan failures (2nd position loans under $10k to help with down payments that were in default. We saw over 5,000 of these loans alone...)

    2. The bid/ask spread will close the gap, but you will not see 2018 prices again. Right now, still a decent gap between the asking price and bid price, but as property values decline and taxes and insurance increase, sellers will be more willing to sell. I would expect the reperforming loan market to stay around a 9-12% return to investors and NPL's ticking from high teens back into the 20%+ range.

    3. Real estate prices will decline in most markets even if interest rates drop. Why do I say this? While there will probably be a quick bump if there is a drop in interest rates - small businesses are tightening their belts, bank liquidity is tightening as well. Throw in income has not been able to keep up with inflation and home prices and its going to give. Will it crash, I do not think so, but I do not see gains, especially in lower priced markets.

    4. You will start to see significant cracks in the seller financed space.  - This one honestly, I feel is a slam dunk. Why do I say that? see #3 above. Also a significant number of people either sold on subject 2 with their low rates or did seller financing with poor underwriting on the borrower. If prices continue to fade and unemployment increases (which is going to happen), then these borrowers who have no equity will say screw it and walk away. Especially as rent rates come back down or stabilize. Saw this happen in 2010-2012. 

    5. I will buy at least $30M in notes next year :) - hey had to throw one of my personal goals in there. Make sure to share yours. 

    Thanks Chris.  Your reasoning sounds right on.
    Here’s the reason I no longer make any predictions about real estate.
    I was 100% wrong predicting what would occur from Covid 2020.  
    I was 100% wrong in predicting what would happen with Bitcoin
    I was 100% wrong in predicting the 2016 Presidential election

    Amazingly I still increased my net worth a factor of 15 times since 2001. That’s why I believe so strongly in investing in real estate.  Where else can you be so wrong and still be so successful? 
    Private Mortgage Financing Partners, LLC
  • Chris SeveneyBusiness Member
    Moderator
    OP
    Investor · VA · Member since 2015 · 21k+ posts · 19k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Don Konipol:
    Quote from @Chris Seveney:

    Every year I like to provide some predictions on what I think will occur in the upcoming year as it relates to seller financing, mortgage note investing and the like. So here are my predictions, feel free to offer up your own:

    1. We will see an increase in inventory in 2024. This is probably going to be an easy one to predict since inventory was very low in 2023. It did pick up though as the year went on. In Q1 we say about $300M worth of loans cross our desk, Q2 was about $300M/mo and Q3 and Q4 we had weeks where we saw $300M.  Toward the end of the year, we started seeing a big uptick in down payment assistance loan failures (2nd position loans under $10k to help with down payments that were in default. We saw over 5,000 of these loans alone...)

    2. The bid/ask spread will close the gap, but you will not see 2018 prices again. Right now, still a decent gap between the asking price and bid price, but as property values decline and taxes and insurance increase, sellers will be more willing to sell. I would expect the reperforming loan market to stay around a 9-12% return to investors and NPL's ticking from high teens back into the 20%+ range.

    3. Real estate prices will decline in most markets even if interest rates drop. Why do I say this? While there will probably be a quick bump if there is a drop in interest rates - small businesses are tightening their belts, bank liquidity is tightening as well. Throw in income has not been able to keep up with inflation and home prices and its going to give. Will it crash, I do not think so, but I do not see gains, especially in lower priced markets.

    4. You will start to see significant cracks in the seller financed space.  - This one honestly, I feel is a slam dunk. Why do I say that? see #3 above. Also a significant number of people either sold on subject 2 with their low rates or did seller financing with poor underwriting on the borrower. If prices continue to fade and unemployment increases (which is going to happen), then these borrowers who have no equity will say screw it and walk away. Especially as rent rates come back down or stabilize. Saw this happen in 2010-2012. 

    5. I will buy at least $30M in notes next year :) - hey had to throw one of my personal goals in there. Make sure to share yours. 

    Thanks Chris.  Your reasoning sounds right on.
    Here’s the reason I no longer make any predictions about real estate.
    I was 100% wrong predicting what would occur from Covid 2020.  
    I was 100% wrong in predicting what would happen with Bitcoin
    I was 100% wrong in predicting the 2016 Presidential election

    Amazingly I still increased my net worth a factor of 15 times since 2001. That’s why I believe so strongly in investing in real estate.  Where else can you be so wrong and still be so successful? 

     HAHA I was 100% wrong with COVID and Bitcoin as well (I was correct about NFT's though).

    I also thought Tesla and Facebook would go bankrupt and never make any money. 

    Similar, in 2009 I was divorced and sold my house at a loss and swimming in debt. I am a little better off financially now.

    7e investments53 Reviews
  • Member since 2019 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Don Konipol:

    Amazingly I still increased my net worth a factor of 15 times since 2001. That’s why I believe so strongly in investing in real estate.  Where else can you be so wrong and still be so successful? 

     This is easy to answer Don, because you are in debt side and perhaps you manage your fund carefully. Hoping I'm right though LOL

  • Member since 2019 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Chris Seveney:
    Quote from @Don Konipol:

    Similar, in 2009 I was divorced and sold my house at a loss and swimming in debt. I am a little better off financially now.


     What is funny from all investment, either real estate or anything else, is how correlate they are to bond which is very correlated to Fed policy.

    I meant, Fed could make one guy become rich or poor in different year. 
    Amazing to see how real estate works the same way following the bond.

  • Nicholas L.Pro Member
    Flipper/Rehabber · Pittsburgh · Member since 2018 · 6k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    2y

    @Chris Seveney

    thanks for posting this, i appreciate the specificity here.

    curious because i can't tell - what sector(s) of the RE market is this - the entire market?  

    4 specifically - is this all residential, larger residential?

    I've posted on other threads - i'm not really changing my strategy in response to the macro changes, just accepting less cash flow as long as I get the other benefits.

  • Member since 2019 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Nicholas L.:

    @Chris Seveney

    I've posted on other threads - i'm not really changing my strategy in response to the macro changes, just accepting less cash flow as long as I get the other benefits.


     mathematically speaking this is given as spread between bond and appreciation/cash flow has reduced LOL you would be okay as you are veteran on this lol

  • Lender · Southwest Georgia · Member since 2017 · 312 posts · 278 votes
    2y
    Quote from @V.G Jason:
    Quote from @Chris Seveney:

    Every year I like to provide some predictions on what I think will occur in the upcoming year as it relates to seller financing, mortgage note investing and the like. So here are my predictions, feel free to offer up your own:

    1. We will see an increase in inventory in 2024. This is probably going to be an easy one to predict since inventory was very low in 2023. It did pick up though as the year went on. In Q1 we say about $300M worth of loans cross our desk, Q2 was about $300M/mo and Q3 and Q4 we had weeks where we saw $300M.  Toward the end of the year, we started seeing a big uptick in down payment assistance loan failures (2nd position loans under $10k to help with down payments that were in default. We saw over 5,000 of these loans alone...)

    2. The bid/ask spread will close the gap, but you will not see 2018 prices again. Right now, still a decent gap between the asking price and bid price, but as property values decline and taxes and insurance increase, sellers will be more willing to sell. I would expect the reperforming loan market to stay around a 9-12% return to investors and NPL's ticking from high teens back into the 20%+ range.

    3. Real estate prices will decline in most markets even if interest rates drop. Why do I say this? While there will probably be a quick bump if there is a drop in interest rates - small businesses are tightening their belts, bank liquidity is tightening as well. Throw in income has not been able to keep up with inflation and home prices and its going to give. Will it crash, I do not think so, but I do not see gains, especially in lower priced markets.

    4. You will start to see significant cracks in the seller financed space.  - This one honestly, I feel is a slam dunk. Why do I say that? see #3 above. Also a significant number of people either sold on subject 2 with their low rates or did seller financing with poor underwriting on the borrower. If prices continue to fade and unemployment increases (which is going to happen), then these borrowers who have no equity will say screw it and walk away. Especially as rent rates come back down or stabilize. Saw this happen in 2010-2012. 

    5. I will buy at least $30M in notes next year :) - hey had to throw one of my personal goals in there. Make sure to share yours. 

     1. Agreed on all accounts.  Getting to point #3 on this, I think this happens artificially to a degree due to the amount of agents withholding properties in Q4 of 2023 because of seasonality. So many expired listings have told me they'll back up in March, I mean I'm talking 70-80% of them.

    2. More houses were withheld on the market than demand in 2023. I think it's a very safe bet to see the inverse true, and then when you classify demand out(the one's who are interested but cannot qualify) it'll get even wider.

    3. Agreed, but long term wise, the better markets will bounce back higher & better. 7 years +, 10 years + ideally. The trash markets will see an exodus of REI speculation.

    4. The people with balloon payments with 5% equity on an asset that barely appreciated. There's a turnkey provider with 5% down, 2 year balloon payments. They sell neighborhood specifics like that, so all of 2025 you have people racing to the bottom to get out of their loan all next door to each other. This area is the most up foonr explosi, and buying the  notes behind it for someone that can manage that process may yield as the best investment in 2024. 

    5. I intend to grab another 20-30 properties; depending on quality, price points, etc. Will enter probably 5 new markets. 

     @Chris Seveney, Curious as both of you think prices will decline on the overall asset class next year, but both of you state you are purchasing more. Is that due to the long term projection looking better? I am less worried about what happens in the next 12 months as I am the next 12 years. 

    So both of yall are very bullish long term, correct? 

  • Real Estate Broker · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    2y
    A fair amount to agree upon although I foresee a few major looming modifiers that I predict have a high degree of likelihood in happening that have strong influence in adjusting markets. 

    - The correlation of erosion to buyers purchasing power in monthly mortgage payment (increased property tax's, property insurance, HOA fee's) is a factor I see counter acting a slowly declining interest rate, making for a ~net-0 market activity environment on YOY volume metric. 

    - Leading into home stretch of POTUS election cycle, the above may be a strong catalyst to press the deployment of a stimulus offering in form of home buyer empowerment. 
        - With Developer/Builders knowing the standing of market and throttling production to avoid a glut, stimulus would impact supply shortages and in such pricing, in proportion to market supply standings and pent up demand standings. 

    - Mindset's conditioned in a kind of FOMO position from covid bull-run, a stimulus action that present's a buyer surge, and a sold price surge, may be the spark for a real tangible bubble creation appreciation frenzy as those act upon FOMO to "grab the profit's" or "get in before it's too late", ignoring market basis fundamental's, thus in a feed-back-loop of rapid appreciation, ie "bubble". 

    - I do not see risk in seller finance side of things as i don't see potentiality of mortgage rates dropping below 6% in any enduring manner. That said, "chickens coming home to roost" from the various seller-financing deals done WRONG is a very strong potentiality, as issues of such will most likely grow in occurrence and thus possibly press internal audit's that uncover such, and resulting enforcement actions start enacting in a volume. A "Sub-2 Collapse" is a very real potentiality given the volume of novice actors in such.

    - In general, I see politics playing a rapidly increasing role and impact as stimulus and assorted actions have exceptional high probability of occurring induced from political motives, riding backs of legitimate economic standings, but amplified in there deployment via political motives.  

    In summary; buckle-up, it's probably going to get really wild out there. 
  • Nicholas L.Pro Member
    Flipper/Rehabber · Pittsburgh · Member since 2018 · 6k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    2y

    @James Hamling

    thanks, great point about taxes and other costs going up and offsetting a slight decline in rates.  I guess that will be somewhat market specific.  what impact do you think that will have on rents?

  • Member since 2019 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @James Hamling:
    A fair amount to agree upon although I foresee a few major looming modifiers that I predict have a high degree of likelihood in happening that have strong influence in adjusting markets. 

    - The correlation of erosion to buyers purchasing power in monthly mortgage payment (increased property tax's, property insurance, HOA fee's) is a factor I see counter acting a slowly declining interest rate, making for a ~net-0 market activity environment on YOY volume metric. 

    - Leading into home stretch of POTUS election cycle, the above may be a strong catalyst to press the deployment of a stimulus offering in form of home buyer empowerment. 
        - With Developer/Builders knowing the standing of market and throttling production to avoid a glut, stimulus would impact supply shortages and in such pricing, in proportion to market supply standings and pent up demand standings. 

    - Mindset's conditioned in a kind of FOMO position from covid bull-run, a stimulus action that present's a buyer surge, and a sold price surge, may be the spark for a real tangible bubble creation appreciation frenzy as those act upon FOMO to "grab the profit's" or "get in before it's too late", ignoring market basis fundamental's, thus in a feed-back-loop of rapid appreciation, ie "bubble". 

    - I do not see risk in seller finance side of things as i don't see potentiality of mortgage rates dropping below 6% in any enduring manner. That said, "chickens coming home to roost" from the various seller-financing deals done WRONG is a very strong potentiality, as issues of such will most likely grow in occurrence and thus possibly press internal audit's that uncover such, and resulting enforcement actions start enacting in a volume. A "Sub-2 Collapse" is a very real potentiality given the volume of novice actors in such.

    - In general, I see politics playing a rapidly increasing role and impact as stimulus and assorted actions have exceptional high probability of occurring induced from political motives, riding backs of legitimate economic standings, but amplified in there deployment via political motives.  

    In summary; buckle-up, it's probably going to get really wild out there. 

     Future Forward curve is 3.5-4.0 until 2028. Assuming it's correct as CPE is gratifying between 2.5-3.5 then 30YRM would be permanent at 6 (sometimes 5) is the right assumption. You are again correct based on math, James. I keep using this number for my assumption.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    2y

    I think the Auto industry is in for a wild ride..  I think mom and pop will prioritize a home to live in before spending 100k on a SUV with 1500 dollar payments. younger folks will realize rent is a loser and try harder to be home owners in the better cities markets of the US.

    Investment property will continue to sell for what an investor will pay for a given cash flow. This mindset changes over time up and down. 

  • Real Estate Broker · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Nicholas L.:

    @James Hamling

    thanks, great point about taxes and other costs going up and offsetting a slight decline in rates.  I guess that will be somewhat market specific.  what impact do you think that will have on rents?


    Tax's, Insurance, HOA fee's etc., these cost's of operation become a pass-through expense unto end consumer. The question is TIME, in what time relation does this fully pass-through.

    And than impact on end user/consumer mindset conditioning. 

    It's been a recent trend in "renting is cheaper than buying" which speaks to the "time" aspect of the above, because given the meteoric rise in prices, and many of the operational expenses lagging in there impact, and than landlord's lagging in the pass-through, there has been much truth to that statement.     BUT, it's not a state of permanence, it's a time action. So now, we are in the "catch-up" phase of things. 

    All this pressure on rent's, it's not going anywhere, and as more landlord's relent to the pressure it facilitates greater ease for other landlord's to additionally raise rent rates as well. Despite end user/consumer having restricted fund's/affordability. When the market universally raises rates end buyer affordability becomes a non-factor to such price increases, in terms of holding such back. 

    As rent's push up, now we have greater pressure on home buying as people become conditioned to how "expensive" renting is. Whole $ does not need to be "expensive", just the action of experiencing significant rent increases consecutively creates a psychological feeling of "expensive", even though the whole $ may be actually cheap in market whole $ sense. 

    So what happens as cost per inventory unit increases? Yup, pressure on rent's going up, because cost per inventory creation is yet-again a pass-through. 

    The only "savior" for stabilized rent's or rent declines in this scenario is, really REALLY cheap $$$$. Because with really cheap $$$$, one can "float" the averages of rent revenues over longer time periods for profitability. Which is a fancy way to say a landlord can eat a minor net loss for a few years if there is many many more years or following profitability.      BUT, we don't have that world do we, so.... 

    We are in many of not most markets near or at all time record low's of existing inventory being put onto market for availability. New unit construction cost's are at/near all time record highs in terms of production costs (labor, material, regulations, tax's etc.). So any notion of a SURGE of inventory is simply near to impossible. If all current builders collectively decided to get crazy and DOUBLE production, forget fact of the HOW like where are they going to get labor to double production etc., but IF they doubled production that would have to continue for roughly 3.7 years, consecutively, to have sizable market impact to hit tipping points in such. 

    Sure, some individual market's are anomalies outside this norm. I hope we all have enough common sense to know there is always going to be some outlier market's divergent to the negative or positive given market specific factors. Were talking in generalities here. 

    Pressure on rent's has long been here, we had a first inflation surge, now we have basis pressure pressing ALL landlords, including those hold-out's, to elevate which moves the basis up-up-up, relieving downward pressures which, gives more room for upward pressures to be realized/relieved. 

    If I was a renter today, I'd be doing everything I can to get the longest lease possible, 5yr, 10yr+ to lock in because this is an enduring upward pressure on rent's that only has 1 release valve, price ascension. 

    Unless someone slashes operational costs. What is the prospect that insurance or tax costs will be cut 30%?     And keep in mind all affiliated operational expenses such as all the vendors, as those costs go up..... 

    As I long warned on the math of inflation, it does NOT work in a singularity, inflation is a mechanism that has waves. We are now entering into a next wave from inflation, which put's more pressure on prices. Inflation takes many years to work itself out to get back to calm still waters. Were not through it yet. 

    Any who argue this upward pressure on rent's, just riddle where the capital to cover the increased operational expenses comes from? Profit margins have been slashed to bare bone in most circumstances, even into the red for several. Those who found themselves in the red, are added pressure as they work to reprice into the black. Syndications floundering, same thing, reprice into the black. 

    There is a mountain of pressure on upward rent's. I see math wining over end user complaints. 

    I see the trending statement for 2024 being "I can't afford a roof over my head". Leading to my '24' political prediction, Fed level politics doing what it always does to "solve" such problems.... make-it-rain-$$$$$$$

  • Bruce WoodruffPro Member
    Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
    2y

    All good points @Chris Seveney... I agree (mostly) except something tells me that come spring we will see a change in the RE market......more 'back to normal' for lack of a better term.

    With the interest rates likely IMO to drop (Due to the upcoming election and the current Prez putting pressure on the Fed) combined with the built-up pressure from the market being stagnant in '23, there has to be a release of sorts. I see a temporary seller's market with higher prices along with slightly more inventory.....turning into more of a buyer's market by mid-year up to the election, and then who knows...?

    I could be completely wrong though....

  • Chris SeveneyBusiness Member
    Moderator
    OP
    Investor · VA · Member since 2015 · 21k+ posts · 19k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @J. Mitchell Bernier:
    Quote from @V.G Jason:
    Quote from @Chris Seveney:

    Every year I like to provide some predictions on what I think will occur in the upcoming year as it relates to seller financing, mortgage note investing and the like. So here are my predictions, feel free to offer up your own:

    1. We will see an increase in inventory in 2024. This is probably going to be an easy one to predict since inventory was very low in 2023. It did pick up though as the year went on. In Q1 we say about $300M worth of loans cross our desk, Q2 was about $300M/mo and Q3 and Q4 we had weeks where we saw $300M.  Toward the end of the year, we started seeing a big uptick in down payment assistance loan failures (2nd position loans under $10k to help with down payments that were in default. We saw over 5,000 of these loans alone...)

    2. The bid/ask spread will close the gap, but you will not see 2018 prices again. Right now, still a decent gap between the asking price and bid price, but as property values decline and taxes and insurance increase, sellers will be more willing to sell. I would expect the reperforming loan market to stay around a 9-12% return to investors and NPL's ticking from high teens back into the 20%+ range.

    3. Real estate prices will decline in most markets even if interest rates drop. Why do I say this? While there will probably be a quick bump if there is a drop in interest rates - small businesses are tightening their belts, bank liquidity is tightening as well. Throw in income has not been able to keep up with inflation and home prices and its going to give. Will it crash, I do not think so, but I do not see gains, especially in lower priced markets.

    4. You will start to see significant cracks in the seller financed space.  - This one honestly, I feel is a slam dunk. Why do I say that? see #3 above. Also a significant number of people either sold on subject 2 with their low rates or did seller financing with poor underwriting on the borrower. If prices continue to fade and unemployment increases (which is going to happen), then these borrowers who have no equity will say screw it and walk away. Especially as rent rates come back down or stabilize. Saw this happen in 2010-2012. 

    5. I will buy at least $30M in notes next year :) - hey had to throw one of my personal goals in there. Make sure to share yours. 

     1. Agreed on all accounts.  Getting to point #3 on this, I think this happens artificially to a degree due to the amount of agents withholding properties in Q4 of 2023 because of seasonality. So many expired listings have told me they'll back up in March, I mean I'm talking 70-80% of them.

    2. More houses were withheld on the market than demand in 2023. I think it's a very safe bet to see the inverse true, and then when you classify demand out(the one's who are interested but cannot qualify) it'll get even wider.

    3. Agreed, but long term wise, the better markets will bounce back higher & better. 7 years +, 10 years + ideally. The trash markets will see an exodus of REI speculation.

    4. The people with balloon payments with 5% equity on an asset that barely appreciated. There's a turnkey provider with 5% down, 2 year balloon payments. They sell neighborhood specifics like that, so all of 2025 you have people racing to the bottom to get out of their loan all next door to each other. This area is the most up foonr explosi, and buying the  notes behind it for someone that can manage that process may yield as the best investment in 2024. 

    5. I intend to grab another 20-30 properties; depending on quality, price points, etc. Will enter probably 5 new markets. 

     @Chris Seveney, Curious as both of you think prices will decline on the overall asset class next year, but both of you state you are purchasing more. Is that due to the long term projection looking better? I am less worried about what happens in the next 12 months as I am the next 12 years. 

    So both of yall are very bullish long term, correct? 


     The post was more focused on investing in the distressed debt space. Regarding real estate and single family which is what most people invest in, I would be bearish in the next 1-3 years but bullish on anything more than five years. As I mentioned in prior posts, someone is going to lose - its either the Gen Z's who cannot afford to buy a house and crush the majority of their generation from building wealth through real estate home ownership (again BP would make you think everyone in the world is real estate investors, but less than 10% of people are real etate imvestors.) 

    If Gen Z wins, it means prices come back down to match wages and the equity people have gained over the past 3 years will be lessened (not saying wiped out but it will take a wack).

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  • Chris SeveneyBusiness Member
    Moderator
    OP
    Investor · VA · Member since 2015 · 21k+ posts · 19k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:

    All good points @Chris Seveney... I agree (mostly) except something tells me that come spring we will see a change in the RE market......more 'back to normal' for lack of a better term.

    With the interest rates likely IMO to drop (Due to the upcoming election and the current Prez putting pressure on the Fed) combined with the built-up pressure from the market being stagnant in '23, there has to be a release of sorts. I see a temporary seller's market with higher prices along with slightly more inventory.....turning into more of a buyer's market by mid-year up to the election, and then who knows...?

    I could be completely wrong though....


     I think you will get an initial bump from people who have FOMO but I do not think it will be long lasting. Just like you are seeing in auto industry, they had the big increase when inventory went down but now dealerships cannot give cars away and repo men are very very busy. 

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  • Member since 2019 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Chris Seveney:
    Quote from @J. Mitchell Bernier:
    Quote from @V.G Jason:
    Quote from @Chris Seveney:

    Every year I like to provide some predictions on what I think will occur in the upcoming year as it relates to seller financing, mortgage note investing and the like. So here are my predictions, feel free to offer up your own:

    1. We will see an increase in inventory in 2024. This is probably going to be an easy one to predict since inventory was very low in 2023. It did pick up though as the year went on. In Q1 we say about $300M worth of loans cross our desk, Q2 was about $300M/mo and Q3 and Q4 we had weeks where we saw $300M.  Toward the end of the year, we started seeing a big uptick in down payment assistance loan failures (2nd position loans under $10k to help with down payments that were in default. We saw over 5,000 of these loans alone...)

    2. The bid/ask spread will close the gap, but you will not see 2018 prices again. Right now, still a decent gap between the asking price and bid price, but as property values decline and taxes and insurance increase, sellers will be more willing to sell. I would expect the reperforming loan market to stay around a 9-12% return to investors and NPL's ticking from high teens back into the 20%+ range.

    3. Real estate prices will decline in most markets even if interest rates drop. Why do I say this? While there will probably be a quick bump if there is a drop in interest rates - small businesses are tightening their belts, bank liquidity is tightening as well. Throw in income has not been able to keep up with inflation and home prices and its going to give. Will it crash, I do not think so, but I do not see gains, especially in lower priced markets.

    4. You will start to see significant cracks in the seller financed space.  - This one honestly, I feel is a slam dunk. Why do I say that? see #3 above. Also a significant number of people either sold on subject 2 with their low rates or did seller financing with poor underwriting on the borrower. If prices continue to fade and unemployment increases (which is going to happen), then these borrowers who have no equity will say screw it and walk away. Especially as rent rates come back down or stabilize. Saw this happen in 2010-2012. 

    5. I will buy at least $30M in notes next year :) - hey had to throw one of my personal goals in there. Make sure to share yours. 

     1. Agreed on all accounts.  Getting to point #3 on this, I think this happens artificially to a degree due to the amount of agents withholding properties in Q4 of 2023 because of seasonality. So many expired listings have told me they'll back up in March, I mean I'm talking 70-80% of them.

    2. More houses were withheld on the market than demand in 2023. I think it's a very safe bet to see the inverse true, and then when you classify demand out(the one's who are interested but cannot qualify) it'll get even wider.

    3. Agreed, but long term wise, the better markets will bounce back higher & better. 7 years +, 10 years + ideally. The trash markets will see an exodus of REI speculation.

    4. The people with balloon payments with 5% equity on an asset that barely appreciated. There's a turnkey provider with 5% down, 2 year balloon payments. They sell neighborhood specifics like that, so all of 2025 you have people racing to the bottom to get out of their loan all next door to each other. This area is the most up foonr explosi, and buying the  notes behind it for someone that can manage that process may yield as the best investment in 2024. 

    5. I intend to grab another 20-30 properties; depending on quality, price points, etc. Will enter probably 5 new markets. 

     @Chris Seveney, Curious as both of you think prices will decline on the overall asset class next year, but both of you state you are purchasing more. Is that due to the long term projection looking better? I am less worried about what happens in the next 12 months as I am the next 12 years. 

    So both of yall are very bullish long term, correct? 


     The post was more focused on investing in the distressed debt space. Regarding real estate and single family which is what most people invest in, I would be bearish in the next 1-3 years but bullish on anything more than five years. As I mentioned in prior posts, someone is going to lose - its either the Gen Z's who cannot afford to buy a house and crush the majority of their generation from building wealth through real estate home ownership (again BP would make you think everyone in the world is real estate investors, but less than 10% of people are real etate imvestors.) 

    If Gen Z wins, it means prices come back down to match wages and the equity people have gained over the past 3 years will be lessened (not saying wiped out but it will take a wack).

    Like all other bank we would either have no landing hard landing and soft landing.

    a hard landing situation is the situation that you describe above where Fed going to reduce so much that we would see 3 percent mortgage rate again hence GenZ winning , 5 percent drop with 2 % drop in price would be very beneficial to GenZ buyer.

    from tech perspective this is possible because most of cash generated tech company is losing money too today as they can’t greater profit.
  • V.G JasonPro Member
    Investor · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @J. Mitchell Bernier:
    Quote from @V.G Jason:
    Quote from @Chris Seveney:

    Every year I like to provide some predictions on what I think will occur in the upcoming year as it relates to seller financing, mortgage note investing and the like. So here are my predictions, feel free to offer up your own:

    1. We will see an increase in inventory in 2024. This is probably going to be an easy one to predict since inventory was very low in 2023. It did pick up though as the year went on. In Q1 we say about $300M worth of loans cross our desk, Q2 was about $300M/mo and Q3 and Q4 we had weeks where we saw $300M.  Toward the end of the year, we started seeing a big uptick in down payment assistance loan failures (2nd position loans under $10k to help with down payments that were in default. We saw over 5,000 of these loans alone...)

    2. The bid/ask spread will close the gap, but you will not see 2018 prices again. Right now, still a decent gap between the asking price and bid price, but as property values decline and taxes and insurance increase, sellers will be more willing to sell. I would expect the reperforming loan market to stay around a 9-12% return to investors and NPL's ticking from high teens back into the 20%+ range.

    3. Real estate prices will decline in most markets even if interest rates drop. Why do I say this? While there will probably be a quick bump if there is a drop in interest rates - small businesses are tightening their belts, bank liquidity is tightening as well. Throw in income has not been able to keep up with inflation and home prices and its going to give. Will it crash, I do not think so, but I do not see gains, especially in lower priced markets.

    4. You will start to see significant cracks in the seller financed space.  - This one honestly, I feel is a slam dunk. Why do I say that? see #3 above. Also a significant number of people either sold on subject 2 with their low rates or did seller financing with poor underwriting on the borrower. If prices continue to fade and unemployment increases (which is going to happen), then these borrowers who have no equity will say screw it and walk away. Especially as rent rates come back down or stabilize. Saw this happen in 2010-2012. 

    5. I will buy at least $30M in notes next year :) - hey had to throw one of my personal goals in there. Make sure to share yours. 

     1. Agreed on all accounts.  Getting to point #3 on this, I think this happens artificially to a degree due to the amount of agents withholding properties in Q4 of 2023 because of seasonality. So many expired listings have told me they'll back up in March, I mean I'm talking 70-80% of them.

    2. More houses were withheld on the market than demand in 2023. I think it's a very safe bet to see the inverse true, and then when you classify demand out(the one's who are interested but cannot qualify) it'll get even wider.

    3. Agreed, but long term wise, the better markets will bounce back higher & better. 7 years +, 10 years + ideally. The trash markets will see an exodus of REI speculation.

    4. The people with balloon payments with 5% equity on an asset that barely appreciated. There's a turnkey provider with 5% down, 2 year balloon payments. They sell neighborhood specifics like that, so all of 2025 you have people racing to the bottom to get out of their loan all next door to each other. This area is the most up foonr explosi, and buying the  notes behind it for someone that can manage that process may yield as the best investment in 2024. 

    5. I intend to grab another 20-30 properties; depending on quality, price points, etc. Will enter probably 5 new markets. 

     @Chris Seveney, Curious as both of you think prices will decline on the overall asset class next year, but both of you state you are purchasing more. Is that due to the long term projection looking better? I am less worried about what happens in the next 12 months as I am the next 12 years. 

    So both of yall are very bullish long term, correct? 


     Right. If we invested for just a 12 month thing, most investments do not make sense especially real estate. I'm thinking 7 years + to trade equity, 12-15 years for material wealth generation.  The main purpose of my investments is to put cash some place else, just anywhere but cash. Even if a bank is paying me 5%, I know that's only for a short period time relative to my peak years left of living. 

  • V.G JasonPro Member
    Investor · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Chris Seveney:
    Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:

    All good points @Chris Seveney... I agree (mostly) except something tells me that come spring we will see a change in the RE market......more 'back to normal' for lack of a better term.

    With the interest rates likely IMO to drop (Due to the upcoming election and the current Prez putting pressure on the Fed) combined with the built-up pressure from the market being stagnant in '23, there has to be a release of sorts. I see a temporary seller's market with higher prices along with slightly more inventory.....turning into more of a buyer's market by mid-year up to the election, and then who knows...?

    I could be completely wrong though....


     I think you will get an initial bump from people who have FOMO but I do not think it will be long lasting. Just like you are seeing in auto industry, they had the big increase when inventory went down but now dealerships cannot give cars away and repo men are very very busy. 

    Ya March24 .25bps reduction, next 6 weeks little boom maybe 8 weeks. Mid May or latest June starts going down. Gets bad by July, Aug ish, and Sep we see harsher pivot. 

  • Real Estate Broker · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:

    All good points @Chris Seveney... I agree (mostly) except something tells me that come spring we will see a change in the RE market......more 'back to normal' for lack of a better term.

    With the interest rates likely IMO to drop (Due to the upcoming election and the current Prez putting pressure on the Fed) combined with the built-up pressure from the market being stagnant in '23, there has to be a release of sorts. I see a temporary seller's market with higher prices along with slightly more inventory.....turning into more of a buyer's market by mid-year up to the election, and then who knows...?

    I could be completely wrong though....


    Keep in mind that in the past 100 years not 1 sitting president has EVER been re-elected during a recession / economic hardship created under there watch. 

    With that in mind, which political strategists well know front of mind, consider polling #'s. I lend 40:1 odd's of some action of significance to attempt some manner to flip polling #'s. It's not much of a prediction as it's more just reciting from the political play-book on election strategy. 

    And while that's politics, in this case it's economics, because it's people making economic actions for political reasonings. Which we will see how political the FED's gotten because if they want to prove impartiality it means a FED fighting the politicians actions, one throwing gas on the inflation fire as another dousing it in water. Question is, does someone decide to bring the napalm vs gas? 

    Imagine home buyer stimulus, NINJa 2.0, at same time as cranking rates up even more. That would be an interesting bubble. No doc stated income 40yr mortgages for all..... at 16.7% interest rate..... but don't worry it's only 4% the first 2 years...... than resetting to full impact..... Lol, could get interesting, 1-hand fighting the other. 

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