Why is Lumber so Expensive?

Why is Lumber so Expensive?

John LyszczykPro Member
Rental Property Investor · Marine City, MI · Member since 2016 · 145 posts · 230 votes

I noticed some BiggerPockets members asking about the rising cost in lumber and plywood, and given my background, I figured I wood (haha) weigh in on this subject. I currently work for a lumber company and I primarily sell to retail lumber yards, distributors, office wholesalers (jobbers) and General Contractors (GCs). We own several sawmills and treating facilties mainly in the midwest, but our services branch out nation wide. I primarily focus on a specific category called fire-retardant treated wood, which is found in all type 3 and 5 construction. This mostly entails the construction of multifamily housing, hospitals, schools, etc. However, I am exposed to different parts of the lumber business through one way or another.

Over the past few months we have experienced something that I have heard several veteran lumber traders call "unimaginable". Lumber and plywood pricing has sky rocketed to concerning levels.  GCs that were plan on framing this fall are already postponing construction until the market corrects itself. That means large multifamily and residential building is in a nationwide lull, and it's hard to say how long this will last. Below is my best (short) synopsis of how we got here today and how this effects us as Real Estate Investors.

The issues stemmed from the COVID shutdowns back in March when most construction projects were told to halt. The shutdowns did not include sawmills and treaters as we were deemed "essential" however, uncertainty lurked throughout the industry and many companies decided to lay off employees. Sawmills and treaters cut laborers to compensate for the anticipated lack of consumption and uncertainty within the business. 

Meanwhile, over 20 million people in America were gainfully unemployed as our lovely government started quantitative easing. Many of these Americans were making more money sitting at home on unemployment than actually working at their job they were "furloughed" from. This later made it difficult for sawmills and treaters to hire back a labor force. A large population of the country was forced into quarantine with a lot of time on their hands. In addition, they were given some bonus money (stimulus), and many people decided they wanted to build a deck. Seriously...it seemed like everyone in America decided to build a deck all at once.

The consumption started at the big box stores (Lowes, Home Depot, Menards) and Pressure Treated wood became the hottest commodity in the market. East coast building material suppliers and lumber yards were calling west coast treaters for Pressure Treated wood, and suppliers were buying it. Meanwhile, the big box stores started soaking up all the available fiber source in efforts to meet the growing demand. Order files extended  and suddenly the sawmills had to start producing more lumber and plywood. They slowly started their labor force back up and worked to meet demand, but little progress was made to increase supply.

Industry experts now grew concerned about the penned up demand from the construction shutdown. Just as the supply became scarce from the Pressure Treated lumber surge, construction started coming back as COVID restrictions were lifted. General contractors for large projects needed wood to continue and meet deadlines. As you can imagine, this generated more consumption as the growing demand cripple what was left of the existing supply. As a manufacturer, trader, or supplier, if you had wood on the ground you could sell for a PREMIUM. One year ago, the average price for general framing lumber was $2.88 per piece FOB the sawmill (composite average). Today, it is $6.56 per piece FOB the sawmill (composite average). One year ago, a truck of treated plywood cost $20,000, and today it costs $40,000. Prices have double the normal averages in just a matter of months. 

The craziest part is that there is no sign of it correcting itself anytime soon. It may be until the end of the year until we see some sort of market correction. Sawmill order files are extended out to October, but the buying still continues. PTS (Price at time of Shipment) orders are becoming more common. The demand isn't going away and everyone is growing more uncertain amid the record breaking run. 

What does this mean for Real Estate Investors? 

Most likely delayed projects and obviously the cost of building materials are going to rise. If you have a large renovation project you may want to evaluate your cost of materials before getting started. I can only imagine having to do a massive renovation project or addition that requires framing lumber. Yikes! 

The rising costs are mostly hurting new build residential and commercial construction. As for the projects expected to start in the fall, many GCs are shelving them until the start of the new year with hopes for improved purchasing conditions.

I would be curious to hear from other members to see if they have felt the impact of rising building material costs. I know that was long winded, but I hope it was insightful.  
  

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Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
5y
Originally posted by @Cody Muth:

@John Lyszczyk

John,

Where do you currently see lumber prices at and where would you say prices are headed?

I’ve talked to builders that are saying they’re seeing prices coming back down but a buddy of mine works in management at 84 lumber and he’s saying they’re only rising and suspects lumber will continue to keep rising in price... I’m located in NC

What are your thoughts?

Thanks

I have 15 new constructions going right now.. so lumber is on our radar..  lumber packages including truss's were running 20 to 28k pre this run up now they are 45 to 60k.. I raised the price of my homes by 50k..  And buyers understand.. so we set the price so if lumber comes back to earth we will still keep the pricing and hopefully will pick up some delta.. 

One of the causes of lumber prices on west coast is the Tarrifs  this has been going on for a few decades.. I was a Log Supplier here in Oregon for about a decade the market moves constantly.. and there has been a ton of consolidation in the industry along with closing of some mills.

See this reply in the discussion

71 Replies

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  • Ned CareyPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    6y

    @John Lyszczyk Great synopsis thanks for the post. 

  • Property Manager · Kihei, HI · Member since 2016 · 85 posts · 97 votes
    6y

    Should we buy weyerhauser or rayonier?

  • John LyszczykPro Member
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Marine City, MI · Member since 2016 · 145 posts · 230 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Christian Cramer:

    Should we buy weyerhauser or rayonier?

    I'm not a stock market expert, but if you didn't buy in March/April, then you missed the boat. The sky was falling around the beginning of April and I believe that was the best time to buy.
      

  • Ned CareyPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    6y

    Oh come on @John Lyszczyk, common wisdom is buy when things are hot. Then sell when things are at a bottom to minimize your losses. Repeat this over and over until you are broke. 

  • New to Real Estate · Richmond, VA · Member since 2017 · 7 posts · 3 votes
    5y

    @John Lyszczyk

    John,

    Where do you currently see lumber prices at and where would you say prices are headed?

    I’ve talked to builders that are saying they’re seeing prices coming back down but a buddy of mine works in management at 84 lumber and he’s saying they’re only rising and suspects lumber will continue to keep rising in price... I’m located in NC

    What are your thoughts?

    Thanks

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Cody Muth:

    @John Lyszczyk

    John,

    Where do you currently see lumber prices at and where would you say prices are headed?

    I’ve talked to builders that are saying they’re seeing prices coming back down but a buddy of mine works in management at 84 lumber and he’s saying they’re only rising and suspects lumber will continue to keep rising in price... I’m located in NC

    What are your thoughts?

    Thanks

    I have 15 new constructions going right now.. so lumber is on our radar..  lumber packages including truss's were running 20 to 28k pre this run up now they are 45 to 60k.. I raised the price of my homes by 50k..  And buyers understand.. so we set the price so if lumber comes back to earth we will still keep the pricing and hopefully will pick up some delta.. 

    One of the causes of lumber prices on west coast is the Tarrifs  this has been going on for a few decades.. I was a Log Supplier here in Oregon for about a decade the market moves constantly.. and there has been a ton of consolidation in the industry along with closing of some mills.

  • Real Estate Broker · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    5y

    @John Lyszczyk (thunderous round of applause) Really that was a fantastic summary and synapsis. 

    Going a step further on that, as was touched on margins have grown by mind-boggling head-spinning factors that everyone in the trades would have said is absolutely impossible just 18 months ago. Aside from all the logistical and mathematical issues with supply/demand cycle of all this, there is now a new component, PROFIT. 

    For those not in the know, owning and running a lumber mill or lumber dealer has not historically been the kind of profit generation business one may think, yacht's and private jet's do not apply, lol. BUT now, these companies are enjoying profit margins only available in dreams previously, and for an extended duration. Events happen, shortages occur, enhanced margins to compensate, but these are limited "spike" events, this today is a system wide complete reset, for most part. That extended duration of a new enhanced math of profit ratios, well fact is it becomes a real nice cozy place to be that a company can get rather comfortable with. 

    Which leads to the next question, just how incentivized will an entire industry be to chop their "new norm" profit margins in half? I truly see this as a "new norm" in the truest economic sense, which means under a free market system 1) it will require a time of resource supply coming amply available 2) new servicers enter of existing servicers in a fight for market share make an incremental discount on prevailing margins, where ample margins exist 3) time, lot's of time for this cycle to slowly incrementally play out until prices come down to a "market" sustained rate that margins don't have that "play" to cut additionally, and we achieve equilibrium. 

    I hear far too many talk about this price event expecting prices to drop as suddenly and dramatically as they rose, that is simply not how the economics of it all works, it will be a long slow slope back down just how the 08/09 housing collapse was a sudden walk off a cliff, and a long slow walk up a hill, same market factors simply in reverse. 

    The big builders who have internalized all operations, they are a-ok in this as they have power to simply adjust unit pricing as input costs adjust, not to mention considerable purchasing power not just in dollars but network and, very literally, power. It's the spec. builders who are in trouble with this, and the renovators who sell via bids and float the variables of hard-cost inputs. As a former owner of Renovation firms and material's distribution, I have spoken to several still in the trades and it's a blood-bath to put it gently, and all are struggling with how to mitigate this issue. It's not as simple as just telling clients they must absorb these variables, telling clients the price for _____ is..... well it will be somewhere between $20k and $40k, probably, maybe, unless more price spikes, it could hit $50k, but hopefully no more than $60k, and the materials will be in..... eventually........ 

    It's rough out there, and I have yet to see 1 Twitter or anything of a contractor or carpenter getting a $100 thank you tip, maybe if they stopped being trades professionals and carry food for a living, but alas they only use countless years of skills building and thousands invested in tools to construct peoples homes. 

  • Property Manager · TX · Member since 2019 · 327 posts · 69 votes
    5y

    @Cody Muth I am not John Lyszczyk but I can tell price of pickets is definitely going up a lot where I am (Houston).  Last May I had a fence contractor giving a quote of $21/ft to replace the fence.  Just today same contractor, same fence (didn't do it last year) he is giving me $29/ft .  He said because cost of pickets is higher than ever.  I got so mad at myself for not doing it last year!

  • John LyszczykPro Member
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Marine City, MI · Member since 2016 · 145 posts · 230 votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Cody Muth:

    @John Lyszczyk

    John,

    Where do you currently see lumber prices at and where would you say prices are headed?

    I’ve talked to builders that are saying they’re seeing prices coming back down but a buddy of mine works in management at 84 lumber and he’s saying they’re only rising and suspects lumber will continue to keep rising in price... I’m located in NC

    What are your thoughts?

    Thanks

    Hey Cody,

    We are in some very interesting times in the building materials industry. The summary I made was back in Sept/Oct when prices were at an all time high. We have since experienced a correction, however it was very short lived. I've included some images below that provide a great visual of what the general composite prices have done over the past year (Price Per Thousand Board Feet).

    We recently experienced another run, as many distributors, retailers and treating manufacturers are operating "hand-to-mouth". Meaning, wood is already bought before it is even produced. Sawmills are attempting to meet their commitments to contract business while also trying to satisfy the appetite of secondary business. Supply is very limited, and pricing has increased because of the lack of supply.

    Moving forward, we may see small corrections and they will be short-lived. Our purchasers and market experts don't see anything changing until Q3. We will likely see prices remain high until demand slows down. Many commercial projects are starting to quote for framing starts in the spring and summer. We will definitely see another spike in prices as we get closer to the busy season (summer).

    In respect to plywood, it has been the most interesting segment of this industry. We are at entirely new price levels compared to Sept/Oct 2020 (see chart below). This will not change at least for another 2-3 months. Our market experts believe the pricing will remain at these levels until late Q2. I know the panel market better than the lumber market, and I strongly believe we will continue to see pricing rise for the next month. The market gyrations will come, but will be short lived for the time being.

    Overall, we are once again experiencing things this industry has never seen before. I continue to see guys that have been in this industry for 50+ years scratch their head when they are reviewing market conditions. Both lumber and plywood are strong right now, and if we experience any major correction, it won't be until later this year if demand slows and supply increases. IF a major correction occurs, the downline consumers may not see the effects of lower prices until late Q4 2021 or even Q1 2022.

    84 lumber is one of my good customers :) I sell a **** load of Fire-Treated plywood and lumber to them. Small world!

  • John LyszczykPro Member
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Marine City, MI · Member since 2016 · 145 posts · 230 votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @James Hamling:

    @John Lyszczyk (thunderous round of applause) Really that was a fantastic summary and synapsis. 

    Going a step further on that, as was touched on margins have grown by mind-boggling head-spinning factors that everyone in the trades would have said is absolutely impossible just 18 months ago. Aside from all the logistical and mathematical issues with supply/demand cycle of all this, there is now a new component, PROFIT. 

    For those not in the know, owning and running a lumber mill or lumber dealer has not historically been the kind of profit generation business one may think, yacht's and private jet's do not apply, lol. BUT now, these companies are enjoying profit margins only available in dreams previously, and for an extended duration. Events happen, shortages occur, enhanced margins to compensate, but these are limited "spike" events, this today is a system wide complete reset, for most part. That extended duration of a new enhanced math of profit ratios, well fact is it becomes a real nice cozy place to be that a company can get rather comfortable with. 

    Which leads to the next question, just how incentivized will an entire industry be to chop their "new norm" profit margins in half? I truly see this as a "new norm" in the truest economic sense, which means under a free market system 1) it will require a time of resource supply coming amply available 2) new servicers enter of existing servicers in a fight for market share make an incremental discount on prevailing margins, where ample margins exist 3) time, lot's of time for this cycle to slowly incrementally play out until prices come down to a "market" sustained rate that margins don't have that "play" to cut additionally, and we achieve equilibrium. 

    I hear far too many talk about this price event expecting prices to drop as suddenly and dramatically as they rose, that is simply not how the economics of it all works, it will be a long slow slope back down just how the 08/09 housing collapse was a sudden walk off a cliff, and a long slow walk up a hill, same market factors simply in reverse. 

    The big builders who have internalized all operations, they are a-ok in this as they have power to simply adjust unit pricing as input costs adjust, not to mention considerable purchasing power not just in dollars but network and, very literally, power. It's the spec. builders who are in trouble with this, and the renovators who sell via bids and float the variables of hard-cost inputs. As a former owner of Renovation firms and material's distribution, I have spoken to several still in the trades and it's a blood-bath to put it gently, and all are struggling with how to mitigate this issue. It's not as simple as just telling clients they must absorb these variables, telling clients the price for _____ is..... well it will be somewhere between $20k and $40k, probably, maybe, unless more price spikes, it could hit $50k, but hopefully no more than $60k, and the materials will be in..... eventually........ 

    It's rough out there, and I have yet to see 1 Twitter or anything of a contractor or carpenter getting a $100 thank you tip, maybe if they stopped being trades professionals and carry food for a living, but alas they only use countless years of skills building and thousands invested in tools to construct peoples homes. 

    Hey James, 

    The owner of our privately held company has owned a yacht and has had part ownership of a private jet for several years, which I've had the pleasure of flying in. I know you didn't know that, but now you do. He's used his "profits" to not only acquire those luxuries, but to also duplicate an 87 million dollar SYP sawmill that generates 300MMBF in twelve months. Why? Because it pays for itself in 12 months. Building will start next year.

     With that said, the scramble to meet demand and grab market share has already begun. His new state-of-the-art sawmill was the first of its kind, which has prompted larger players to follow suite and build more mills of their own EXACTLY the same way our owner built his. There is a ton of innovation happening in the lumber industry and other related industries, which will help balance things out so to speak.

  • New to Real Estate · Richmond, VA · Member since 2017 · 7 posts · 3 votes
    5y

    John,


    Thank you for taking the time to respond. That was extremely enlightening and makes a lot of sense. 

  • Noah DunlapPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Shippensburg, PA · Member since 2019 · 18 posts · 8 votes
    5y

    Thank you for the explanation. That clears up a lot of confusion on my part about the lumber industry. 

    As a truck driver for a local building supply store, I can definitely confirm your statement about decks. It felt like I was delivering nothing but deck packages to customers all summer. I don't have access to all of my company's numbers, but at our year end banquet (yes, we still had one of those despite Covid) we learned that our yearly sales were the highest in company history and they were up 11% from 2019, and June was the busiest month in company history. When I would go to our treated lumber supplier (Great Southern) to pick up a load, I routinely left with only half of what my PO stated because they were completely out of stock. The manager there went so far as to say, "if you're here for treated 5/4 decking, you might as well ask for my first born child."

  • Noah DunlapPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Shippensburg, PA · Member since 2019 · 18 posts · 8 votes
    5y

    Thank you for the explanation. That clears up a lot of confusion on my part about the lumber industry. 

    As a truck driver for a local building supply store, I can definitely confirm your statement about decks. It felt like I was delivering nothing but deck packages to customers all summer. I don't have access to all of my company's numbers, but at our year end banquet (yes, we still had one of those despite Covid) we learned that our yearly sales were the highest in company history and they were up 11% from 2019, and June was the busiest month in company history. When I would go to our treated lumber supplier (Great Southern) to pick up a load, I routinely left with only half of what my PO stated because they were completely out of stock. The manager there went so far as to say, "if you're here for treated 5/4 decking, you might as well ask for my first born child."

  • Member since 2019 · 3 posts · 2 votes
    5y

    Well said John. I wanted to expand on what you shed light on. I am a salesman at a lumber yard in upstate SC. We have seen unprecedented demand for building materials over the last few years, and our area is considered a very fast growing area. When this Covid shutdown first ramped up in Spring 2020 we did not see slowdown at all. And yes, everyone and their brother started building a deck. So many of my clients had workers stay at home and make more money on unempoloyment, so why go back to work? With all the demand from consumers wanting to do their personal projects and an unprecedented number of new starts/permits being pulled, the mills were very very strained. 

    Now we are seeing windows and door lead times skyrocket. Where under normal circumstances we would see windows and doors from millwork shops to lumber yard come in around 2 weeks, we are now looking at 10-12 weeks in some circumstances. In the past builders would order windows and doors when they started framing and have no issues but now they are having to order them even before the foundation goes down. Absolutely insane but unfortunately in my area we are hearing no end in sight to high lumber prices and long turnaround times on millwork products. 

  • Member since 2019 · 3 posts · 2 votes
    5y

    Well said John. I wanted to expand on what you shed light on. I am a salesman at a lumber yard in upstate SC. We have seen unprecedented demand for building materials over the last few years, and our area is considered a very fast growing area. When this Covid shutdown first ramped up in Spring 2020 we did not see slowdown at all. And yes, everyone and their brother started building a deck. So many of my clients had workers stay at home and make more money on unempoloyment, so why go back to work? With all the demand from consumers wanting to do their personal projects and an unprecedented number of new starts/permits being pulled, the mills were very very strained. 

    Now we are seeing windows and door lead times skyrocket. Where under normal circumstances we would see windows and doors from millwork shops to lumber yard come in around 2 weeks, we are now looking at 10-12 weeks in some circumstances. In the past builders would order windows and doors when they started framing and have no issues but now they are having to order them even before the foundation goes down. Absolutely insane but unfortunately in my area we are hearing no end in sight to high lumber prices and long turnaround times on millwork products. 

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @James Hamling:

    @John Lyszczyk (thunderous round of applause) Really that was a fantastic summary and synapsis. 

    Going a step further on that, as was touched on margins have grown by mind-boggling head-spinning factors that everyone in the trades would have said is absolutely impossible just 18 months ago. Aside from all the logistical and mathematical issues with supply/demand cycle of all this, there is now a new component, PROFIT. 

    For those not in the know, owning and running a lumber mill or lumber dealer has not historically been the kind of profit generation business one may think, yacht's and private jet's do not apply, lol. BUT now, these companies are enjoying profit margins only available in dreams previously, and for an extended duration. Events happen, shortages occur, enhanced margins to compensate, but these are limited "spike" events, this today is a system wide complete reset, for most part. That extended duration of a new enhanced math of profit ratios, well fact is it becomes a real nice cozy place to be that a company can get rather comfortable with. 

    Which leads to the next question, just how incentivized will an entire industry be to chop their "new norm" profit margins in half? I truly see this as a "new norm" in the truest economic sense, which means under a free market system 1) it will require a time of resource supply coming amply available 2) new servicers enter of existing servicers in a fight for market share make an incremental discount on prevailing margins, where ample margins exist 3) time, lot's of time for this cycle to slowly incrementally play out until prices come down to a "market" sustained rate that margins don't have that "play" to cut additionally, and we achieve equilibrium. 

    I hear far too many talk about this price event expecting prices to drop as suddenly and dramatically as they rose, that is simply not how the economics of it all works, it will be a long slow slope back down just how the 08/09 housing collapse was a sudden walk off a cliff, and a long slow walk up a hill, same market factors simply in reverse. 

    The big builders who have internalized all operations, they are a-ok in this as they have power to simply adjust unit pricing as input costs adjust, not to mention considerable purchasing power not just in dollars but network and, very literally, power. It's the spec. builders who are in trouble with this, and the renovators who sell via bids and float the variables of hard-cost inputs. As a former owner of Renovation firms and material's distribution, I have spoken to several still in the trades and it's a blood-bath to put it gently, and all are struggling with how to mitigate this issue. It's not as simple as just telling clients they must absorb these variables, telling clients the price for _____ is..... well it will be somewhere between $20k and $40k, probably, maybe, unless more price spikes, it could hit $50k, but hopefully no more than $60k, and the materials will be in..... eventually........ 

    It's rough out there, and I have yet to see 1 Twitter or anything of a contractor or carpenter getting a $100 thank you tip, maybe if they stopped being trades professionals and carry food for a living, but alas they only use countless years of skills building and thousands invested in tools to construct peoples homes. 

    Not sure about your characterization of the Lumber profitability..  They are not called Timber Barons for nothing.. there is vast wealth at least on the West coast in the timber / lumber business.. and most of the bigger mills do have Jets  Gulfstreams in fact  I know Stimson lumber has one etc.. Red Emerson in CA  Sierra Pacific lumber is uber wealthy..  Now if your talking small mom and pop hard wood mills I can see that for sure.. but the major players in the Paper dimensional lumber etc.. those old families are loaded..  

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @James Hamling:

    @John Lyszczyk (thunderous round of applause) Really that was a fantastic summary and synapsis. 

    Going a step further on that, as was touched on margins have grown by mind-boggling head-spinning factors that everyone in the trades would have said is absolutely impossible just 18 months ago. Aside from all the logistical and mathematical issues with supply/demand cycle of all this, there is now a new component, PROFIT. 

    For those not in the know, owning and running a lumber mill or lumber dealer has not historically been the kind of profit generation business one may think, yacht's and private jet's do not apply, lol. BUT now, these companies are enjoying profit margins only available in dreams previously, and for an extended duration. Events happen, shortages occur, enhanced margins to compensate, but these are limited "spike" events, this today is a system wide complete reset, for most part. That extended duration of a new enhanced math of profit ratios, well fact is it becomes a real nice cozy place to be that a company can get rather comfortable with. 

    Which leads to the next question, just how incentivized will an entire industry be to chop their "new norm" profit margins in half? I truly see this as a "new norm" in the truest economic sense, which means under a free market system 1) it will require a time of resource supply coming amply available 2) new servicers enter of existing servicers in a fight for market share make an incremental discount on prevailing margins, where ample margins exist 3) time, lot's of time for this cycle to slowly incrementally play out until prices come down to a "market" sustained rate that margins don't have that "play" to cut additionally, and we achieve equilibrium. 

    I hear far too many talk about this price event expecting prices to drop as suddenly and dramatically as they rose, that is simply not how the economics of it all works, it will be a long slow slope back down just how the 08/09 housing collapse was a sudden walk off a cliff, and a long slow walk up a hill, same market factors simply in reverse. 

    The big builders who have internalized all operations, they are a-ok in this as they have power to simply adjust unit pricing as input costs adjust, not to mention considerable purchasing power not just in dollars but network and, very literally, power. It's the spec. builders who are in trouble with this, and the renovators who sell via bids and float the variables of hard-cost inputs. As a former owner of Renovation firms and material's distribution, I have spoken to several still in the trades and it's a blood-bath to put it gently, and all are struggling with how to mitigate this issue. It's not as simple as just telling clients they must absorb these variables, telling clients the price for _____ is..... well it will be somewhere between $20k and $40k, probably, maybe, unless more price spikes, it could hit $50k, but hopefully no more than $60k, and the materials will be in..... eventually........ 

    It's rough out there, and I have yet to see 1 Twitter or anything of a contractor or carpenter getting a $100 thank you tip, maybe if they stopped being trades professionals and carry food for a living, but alas they only use countless years of skills building and thousands invested in tools to construct peoples homes. 

    In fact one Oregon family Starker who own thousands of acres of Timber land  provide free collage education to all children of the residence of Philomath Oregon.. and another fun item that many dont know.  Starker family created the 1031 it used to be called a Starker exchange 

    this was used for when timber owners were exchanging land and did not want to pay tax.. if you look at the big landholding maps of the west you will see in the forest lands ownership is checkerboarded  IE  one section federal One private.. so there is a constant movement of these companies trying to square up ownership blocks.. this simply does not happen East of the Rockies were there is not nearly the amount of timber land or public timber land or BLM  etc.. its mainly private..  And BLM =  Bureau Of Land Management  

  • Rental Property Investor · Cincinnati, OH · Member since 2019 · 59 posts · 77 votes
    5y

    Thanks @John Lyszczyk for the post!  I am experiencing this right now.  I've had a new deck on my list at one of my multi-families in Cincinnati for the past two years with the anticipation of doing it this summer.  I was going to delay, but unfortunately can't due to the condition of the deck.  As you can imagine, my estimates are through the roof for the  materials.  Oh COVID...how we are enjoying the repercussions. 

  • Real Estate Agent · Memphis, TN · Member since 2020 · 3 posts · 4 votes
    5y

    Thanks for this insight. I work pt at Lowes and the hottest wood was treated decking, fence pockets and 4x4s. I do price changes and the prices on all of the wood is going up every week.

  • Real Estate Broker · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
    Originally posted by @James Hamling:

    @John Lyszczyk (thunderous round of applause) Really that was a fantastic summary and synapsis. 

    Going a step further on that, as was touched on margins have grown by mind-boggling head-spinning factors that everyone in the trades would have said is absolutely impossible just 18 months ago. Aside from all the logistical and mathematical issues with supply/demand cycle of all this, there is now a new component, PROFIT. 

    For those not in the know, owning and running a lumber mill or lumber dealer has not historically been the kind of profit generation business one may think, yacht's and private jet's do not apply, lol. BUT now, these companies are enjoying profit margins only available in dreams previously, and for an extended duration. Events happen, shortages occur, enhanced margins to compensate, but these are limited "spike" events, this today is a system wide complete reset, for most part. That extended duration of a new enhanced math of profit ratios, well fact is it becomes a real nice cozy place to be that a company can get rather comfortable with. 

    Which leads to the next question, just how incentivized will an entire industry be to chop their "new norm" profit margins in half? I truly see this as a "new norm" in the truest economic sense, which means under a free market system 1) it will require a time of resource supply coming amply available 2) new servicers enter of existing servicers in a fight for market share make an incremental discount on prevailing margins, where ample margins exist 3) time, lot's of time for this cycle to slowly incrementally play out until prices come down to a "market" sustained rate that margins don't have that "play" to cut additionally, and we achieve equilibrium. 

    I hear far too many talk about this price event expecting prices to drop as suddenly and dramatically as they rose, that is simply not how the economics of it all works, it will be a long slow slope back down just how the 08/09 housing collapse was a sudden walk off a cliff, and a long slow walk up a hill, same market factors simply in reverse. 

    The big builders who have internalized all operations, they are a-ok in this as they have power to simply adjust unit pricing as input costs adjust, not to mention considerable purchasing power not just in dollars but network and, very literally, power. It's the spec. builders who are in trouble with this, and the renovators who sell via bids and float the variables of hard-cost inputs. As a former owner of Renovation firms and material's distribution, I have spoken to several still in the trades and it's a blood-bath to put it gently, and all are struggling with how to mitigate this issue. It's not as simple as just telling clients they must absorb these variables, telling clients the price for _____ is..... well it will be somewhere between $20k and $40k, probably, maybe, unless more price spikes, it could hit $50k, but hopefully no more than $60k, and the materials will be in..... eventually........ 

    It's rough out there, and I have yet to see 1 Twitter or anything of a contractor or carpenter getting a $100 thank you tip, maybe if they stopped being trades professionals and carry food for a living, but alas they only use countless years of skills building and thousands invested in tools to construct peoples homes. 

    Not sure about your characterization of the Lumber profitability..  They are not called Timber Barons for nothing.. there is vast wealth at least on the West coast in the timber / lumber business.. and most of the bigger mills do have Jets  Gulfstreams in fact  I know Stimson lumber has one etc.. Red Emerson in CA  Sierra Pacific lumber is uber wealthy..  Now if your talking small mom and pop hard wood mills I can see that for sure.. but the major players in the Paper dimensional lumber etc.. those old families are loaded..   

    Was speaking in generalities, not accounting for the select few who have held land and operations since Jesus was a pup. Many mill owners and brokers are rather average persons, rather successful in their own right but nothing close to what most would envision as "rich". 

  • Real Estate Agent · Winston Salem, NC · Member since 2014 · 486 posts · 303 votes
    5y

    @John Lyszczyk my husband was just telling me about this a few days ago...that wood prices have increased. Question, does your company buy wood from individuals who are clearing wooded lots...I always wondered how that worked?

  • Marc RiceBusiness Member
    Real Estate Agent · Columbus Cleveland Dayton, OH · Member since 2018 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    5y

    @John Lyszczyk

    Great post!

    Marc Rice | Investor Friendly Agent at Reafco Tailwind Team574 Reviews
  • John LyszczykPro Member
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Marine City, MI · Member since 2016 · 145 posts · 230 votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Jaquetta T Ragland:

    @John Lyszczyk my husband was just telling me about this a few days ago...that wood prices have increased. Question, does your company buy wood from individuals who are clearing wooded lots...I always wondered how that worked?

    Hey Jaquetta,

    Most of the time our company is harvesting trees from land that we own, commercial lands and various public lands. We focus on procuring two primary species of lumber: SPF and SYP. These are commonly used species in construction here in the Midwest as they are the easiest to acquire. My company has a team of foresters who's primary job is to find quality wood for our sawmills. The actual logging is typically contracted out. 

    However, there are logging companies that will pay a land owner for their trees. I hunt a 150 acre piece of land and the owner is having a logging company come in and harvest 243 oak trees. Oak is a widely used and will yield the most when the trees are mature.  

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @James Hamling:
    Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
    Originally posted by @James Hamling:

    @John Lyszczyk (thunderous round of applause) Really that was a fantastic summary and synapsis. 

    Going a step further on that, as was touched on margins have grown by mind-boggling head-spinning factors that everyone in the trades would have said is absolutely impossible just 18 months ago. Aside from all the logistical and mathematical issues with supply/demand cycle of all this, there is now a new component, PROFIT. 

    For those not in the know, owning and running a lumber mill or lumber dealer has not historically been the kind of profit generation business one may think, yacht's and private jet's do not apply, lol. BUT now, these companies are enjoying profit margins only available in dreams previously, and for an extended duration. Events happen, shortages occur, enhanced margins to compensate, but these are limited "spike" events, this today is a system wide complete reset, for most part. That extended duration of a new enhanced math of profit ratios, well fact is it becomes a real nice cozy place to be that a company can get rather comfortable with. 

    Which leads to the next question, just how incentivized will an entire industry be to chop their "new norm" profit margins in half? I truly see this as a "new norm" in the truest economic sense, which means under a free market system 1) it will require a time of resource supply coming amply available 2) new servicers enter of existing servicers in a fight for market share make an incremental discount on prevailing margins, where ample margins exist 3) time, lot's of time for this cycle to slowly incrementally play out until prices come down to a "market" sustained rate that margins don't have that "play" to cut additionally, and we achieve equilibrium. 

    I hear far too many talk about this price event expecting prices to drop as suddenly and dramatically as they rose, that is simply not how the economics of it all works, it will be a long slow slope back down just how the 08/09 housing collapse was a sudden walk off a cliff, and a long slow walk up a hill, same market factors simply in reverse. 

    The big builders who have internalized all operations, they are a-ok in this as they have power to simply adjust unit pricing as input costs adjust, not to mention considerable purchasing power not just in dollars but network and, very literally, power. It's the spec. builders who are in trouble with this, and the renovators who sell via bids and float the variables of hard-cost inputs. As a former owner of Renovation firms and material's distribution, I have spoken to several still in the trades and it's a blood-bath to put it gently, and all are struggling with how to mitigate this issue. It's not as simple as just telling clients they must absorb these variables, telling clients the price for _____ is..... well it will be somewhere between $20k and $40k, probably, maybe, unless more price spikes, it could hit $50k, but hopefully no more than $60k, and the materials will be in..... eventually........ 

    It's rough out there, and I have yet to see 1 Twitter or anything of a contractor or carpenter getting a $100 thank you tip, maybe if they stopped being trades professionals and carry food for a living, but alas they only use countless years of skills building and thousands invested in tools to construct peoples homes. 

    Not sure about your characterization of the Lumber profitability..  They are not called Timber Barons for nothing.. there is vast wealth at least on the West coast in the timber / lumber business.. and most of the bigger mills do have Jets  Gulfstreams in fact  I know Stimson lumber has one etc.. Red Emerson in CA  Sierra Pacific lumber is uber wealthy..  Now if your talking small mom and pop hard wood mills I can see that for sure.. but the major players in the Paper dimensional lumber etc.. those old families are loaded..   

    Was speaking in generalities, not accounting for the select few who have held land and operations since Jesus was a pup. Many mill owners and brokers are rather average persons, rather successful in their own right but nothing close to what most would envision as "rich".

    I think its highly regional as well..  plenty of mills have closed.. that is a fact.. in some little towns in Oregon  50 to 75 years ago there might have been 20 working mills  today ZERO.. that's why a lot of rural Oregon has remained very rural and very poor generally speaking.. no industry..  And on the west coast a very large % of dimensional lumber comes from BC  ergo the fact that the Tariffs are a big reason for wild price fluctuations.. Spotted owl and other environmental issue closed up vast amounts of timber land to the markets. 

    Also we have to keep in mind our west coast stud material is Doug fir and Hemlock or Hem fir as they call it..  and out east they use pine.. So your in different markets.. and in the deep south you have such huge swaths of plantation pine etc..  where logging costs are a fraction of moutain logging.. All that flat land in FLA  MS  AL  GA or relatively flat.. much of it can be processed with feller bunchers..  Where we still have to have Fallers hand fall the timber.. then skidders move the logs to the log decks  big expensive logging roads to build and maintain.. Just a different environment when your harvesting timber on 10 to 40% degree slopes Fording big rushing rivers etc etc.

  • Auburn, GA · Member since 2019 · 22 posts · 8 votes
    5y

    Awesome thread! I decided to build my daughter a bunk bed with a space underneath for bookshelf and desk. 2x4x8 went for $4.95 here in Ga. This increase in price has taken me to look into other building materials for a home i.e. ICF blocks. Prior to Covid, ICF built homes where slightly higher than traditional stick built homes but pays off after several years due to the reduction in utility costs. Now with the price of lumber where it stands, I can build an ICF home at the same cost of a stick built home, sorta. I haven't ran the numbers yet but this definitely brings to the table other options for now. ICf is going to be how I build my forever home regardless of market rates for lumber. I will still have to frame out the inside walls but knowing I have 6" concrete walls to protect me from the elements and other things helps with this decision. 

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