Than Merrill legit or scam?
Real Estate Agent · Miami, FL · Member since 2016 · 11 posts · 2 votes
Than Merrill legit or scam?
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Investor · Louisville, KY · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
9y@Raffaello Cervera - you should try Googling him. He was on a flipping show on HGTV about 10 years ago and rode that fame to a Guru program. What was being advertised is a typical Guru pitch. They give you free tickets to the first meeting. Then they spend that meeting pitching you about the second meeting which might cost a few hundred dollars. If you shell out the few hundred dollars, you get to go to the second meeting where they spend the whole time pitching the third meeting. Third meeting will be anywhere from $10K to $50K.
If you have $50K to shell out on that junk, then you might as well jump in and give it a shot at whatever it is you want to learn. Even if you lose all your money, you'll most likely have learned a lot more than had you given it to a "Guru".
112 Replies
- Los Angeles · Member since 2018 · 464 posts · 471 votes7y
Originally posted by @Colleen B Crain:
I'm sure their organizational systems and templets have value but I think my $30,000 to $50,000 will be better spent elsewhere.
Wait a minute, wait a minute -- he charges FIFTY THOUSAND DOLLARS?
FIFTY??
THOUSAND??
US DOLLARS??
That'll buy an ENTIRE HOUSE in some areas. Use FHA, that's the down payment and rehab costs, almost anywhere in the country. Who's going to have money leftover to invest after paying Than and his cohorts?
I'd heard it was expensive, but cripes, a Mercedes Benz is "expensive". This is talking Rolls Royce money! All I need is something to go to the grocery store and back, how much is that 2011 Honda?
- Baton Rouge, LA · Member since 2018 · 2 posts · 1 vote7y
@Alvin Sylvain Yes and there is an application/interview process required for the privilege of paying. I can't tell you about that though, because I didn't "apply". I believe many of the people in that room will go into debt to buy the program. I really hope it pays off for them. I chose a different risk with exit strategies and possible losses I can live with. I'm learning how vast my knowledge deficit is but I'm growing and moving forward at peace with my imperfect choices.
- 7yCornelius CharlesPro MemberInvestor · Oxnard, CA · Member since 2014 · 438 posts · 187 votes
I think their systems and templets have value, but it’s up to the individual how much that is worth to them. My guess is that most of the people that are actually successful with FB probably would have found a way to be successful without them. As you mentioned, my bet is the vast majority of people who sign up probably don’t end up doing more than a deal or two, if that. So in my opinion, FB is not a scam, but you can debate all day long whether it’s worth the money or not. I know the prices/membership levels have changed greatly since we joined, so i really have no idea what's included with the different price levels anymore.
As for me, I will always be grateful to FB. If it were not for one of the cheesy radio commercials for a “free 2 hour seminar” that we heard one night, we would have never been introduced to real estate. Since joining FB, we have done one super successful flip and my wife was able to transition to a full time realtor, whose income has surpassed mine as a full time engineer. Using the FB tools/systems, we were super confident with a 500K purchase price and 93K rehab as our first flip. Whenever we find another good deal, I will definitely be going back to FB to refresh my memory on some things and to check out the latest templates.
I do not agree with some of their tactics, as I feel that they “accept” people that they know can’t afford it. But I also feel there has to be some personal responsibility as well, so some/most of the blame needs to be on the people signing up. I’m not sure how much responsibility should be on FB to “weed out” every single person who applies, but I think I can do without the whole “increase your credit card limit” gimmick.
- Member since 2019 · 7 posts · 0 votes7y
I'm also super happy to have found this thread!
Thanks for sharing your experience!
- 7yJames Thomas NakashianPro MemberMassapequa, NY · Member since 2017 · 90 posts · 42 votes
Motivation, Hardwork, and Time.... Trump any class. These companies just trying to make money of you, that you could be putting into a property.
- Litchfield, ME · Member since 2018 · 1 post · 1 vote7y
My wife and I just did the 3 day workshop that these guys offer (we have 15 years real estate investing, (multi's, SF rentals and flips) and I am a 5 year real estate agent) and I thought that there was a lot of good information offered. They definitely have a product to sell, they make sure you know what it is and what it costs, but it wasn't a hard sell. I would recommend the 3 day workshop ($200 for both) for anyone just starting out in RE investing as a great overview of the possibilities (residential, commercial, wholesaling, lending, asset protection, etc.).
Their "Mastery" program is not cheap ($30 to 50K!) but the I think there is real value in the access to extensive marketing lists, letters/mailers, CRM software, various estimator software, etc. We haven't ruled out attending the training but didn't "drink the cool-aide" while we were there. They have only made one follow up call afterward and have not sent any email or anything.
Education is always worthwhile but do be skeptical of any get rich quick schemes or sure fire methods. Experience is a great teacher but when investing tens of thousands of carefully saved dollars or OPM trial and error can have serious consequences.
- Real Estate Broker · Santa Ana CA [South Coast Metro] · Member since 2016 · 459 posts · 202 votes7y
We all have it wrong, we are all doing it wrong. Why do you think that every HGTV "star" has their own special Flipping Program? Because they make 100 times the money on gullible dream chasers then they ever do on an actual flip with a lot less work. Can those programs give you education, yes, can they give you ideas, yes. Are they going to do it for you, no. We all want an easy way out and the perfect solution. But most likely its not like that. I admit I bought the Carlton Sheets course back in 1996 - and other various programs but what these guys are doing today charging thousands is borderline fraud.
- 7yJay HinrichsBusiness MemberReal Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
Originally posted by @Rob Massopust:
We all have it wrong, we are all doing it wrong. Why do you think that every HGTV "star" has their own special Flipping Program? Because they make 100 times the money on gullible dream chasers then they ever do on an actual flip with a lot less work. Can those programs give you education, yes, can they give you ideas, yes. Are they going to do it for you, no. We all want an easy way out and the perfect solution. But most likely its not like that. I admit I bought the Carlton Sheets course back in 1996 - and other various programs but what these guys are doing today charging thousands is borderline fraud.
they have cleaned up a bunch.. it used to be ( you too can make 40k a month flipping houses) they got sued and that calmed way down.. its education the course have the content..but like you said the money is made selling their names to seminar companies. the only one that does it all in house these days is vertucci the others with TV shows are all just like any other celeb who is making endorsements.. But i would stop short of saying fraud.. I dont like the sales techniques though of putting folks into massive CC debt to buy the program knowing full well 90% will never do a real estate deal.. just like all the new folks that come to bp for a month or so get all jacked up and never really do anything unless they have a good W2 and can buy a rental which takes no special training or thought process its the simpliest concept in business to understand.. buy house rent house.. LOL
- Member since 2019 · 1 post · 1 vote7y
What is this 50 k package people are talking about. i just attended the free seminar in Cincinnati today and signed up for a 3 day workshop coming up.
- Member since 2019 · 5 posts · 1 vote7y
After you attend the three day work shop. they will offer you three different programs to buy in at a discount if you sign up there. they will pull you to the side during the event to go over how you would pay for it. the highest program is around 50K. I have attended the three day work shop. I hope its some help.
- Investor · Fort Lauderdale, FL · Member since 2013 · 75 posts · 28 votes7y
Alright, I'm going to chime in here. I have 45 years in the industry, 15 as a full-time realtor and 25 as a full-time appraiser. I served (briefly) on the Board of Directors of my local Board of Realtors. I've been around and survived the real estate wars...sometimes barely. I simply tell you all this so you know I've lived it.
The biggest mistake I made in my career was not investing in the very industry in which I made my living. I started out doing that, in partnership with two friends, a painting contractor and a plumbing contractor, and we owned 12 doors by the time we were 30. Nice start. But back then, in small-town rural Ohio, being an investor usually meant owning duplexes or triplexes, and my role was being the landlord. I hated it. So, being young and dumb I said I'd never do that again. I liquidated and never did it again. Not smart and my biggest regret.
I went through my career as a lone ranger, and happily so. I had a good career for the most part without a lot of stress, but the last 10 years or so were a *****. I saw the lending policies, I wouldn't play ball with the lenders and I lost tons of business. I survived, but barely. It wasn't fun. I retired and moved to Florida 8 years ago, thinking I could invest down here because of my "experience". WRONG!! Apples and oranges to say the least. From small town white-bread middle America to urban, multi-cultural south Florida...talk about culture shock! I didn't know what I was going to do. I spent a bunch of money with Armando Montelongo. Good info but I went home after 3 days, woke up a couple days later and said "what now". I was lost, even with my experience. That business model (I had done sever others like it several years earlier) just doesn't work for most people. Most people have good intentions starting out but just can't do it on their own. Human nature I think.
Now, to the meat of my story. I went to an investors luncheon one day. Came out and saw a car with a sign on it that said Real Estate Investor Seeking Trainee. I thought it was worth a call. Was it ever. It saved my ***. It was a different concept in real estate. I'm not saying it's for everyone, I'm not saying it works for everyone. But I am saying I've seen multiple kids begin acquiring real estate before they hit 20 and I've seen some become able to retire by 30. As for me, I came down here 8 years ago having sold my house in Ohio and having nothing else. No real estate at all. I now have partial ownership of 95 single-family houses, notes and mortgages, I've done a couple flips, I've done several small private loans and I've earned some significant money through commissions by promoting this company.
What I'm saying here is that real estate is the greatest wealth-building industry in the world. Many people would like to do it but are scared to...scared of making a mistake and losing money and not having a clue where to begin. This Renatus model creates local communities of investors who learn together, work together, partner together, party some and mix work with play. That's called support, and its this support system that makes this model different from anything else out there. It takes most of the fear away. We're in a new Era. The traditional college education doesn't work for many people the way it used to. It is still educating to the Industrial Age, creating employees.
Those days are numbered, as are the days of many brick-and-mortar businesses. We will have 30% unemployment one of these days. Jobs are disappearing and underpaid. Automation, technology, the net, robotics, now Artificial Intelligence are taking jobs away at a rapid pace. What will my grandkids do to make a living? Real estate, that's what! There are three necessities in life...water, food and shelter. We're in the shelter business.
New models are needed. I'm convinced that this is the business and education model of the future. Online, available 24/7, taught by people who actually make their living doing what they teach, live classes available, MP3 and workbooks online and, with most packages the education, updates and all new classes are included for as long as Renatus exists. It is the best concept in real estate that I've seen in my long career. It really wasn't feasible 10 years or so ago because the technology wasn't available then. It is now. I have a degree in education and my wife was a 35 year classroom teacher, so I know good education when I see it. And this is about far more than fix-n-flip. It's about how to set up and structure a business, how to find the money to do deals, how money works, how to pay off installment debt in 1/3 of the time without increasing your payments, tax liens and deeds, buying notes and mortgages, how to find and buy apartment complexes, find people to manage them, how to manage those managers, commercial real estate and much more. This works. Everyone needs to have someone teach them things. Very few go it alone. Don't be fooled to think you can. You probably can't. You probably need help. Support. The "Guru's" don't offer that. I would counsel you to find something that does. Something in real estate.
- Real Estate Broker · Santa Ana CA [South Coast Metro] · Member since 2016 · 459 posts · 202 votes7y
Originally posted by @Paul Esajian:
This is Paul Esajian and I am business partners with Than.
If anyone ever has a question about our company please feel free to contact me personally. My contact information is at the bottom of my post.
Neither Than, nor I, would ever claim that we are the be-all-end-all of real estate.
We have been personally investing in real estate for over 13 years. We focus on both residential and commercial real estate and have had a lot of success over that time frame. We currently have 30+ different real estate projects either under construction or on the market.
We also have been teaching and coaching real estate investors for a number of years through our educational company. We are both personally very involved in the coaching and love teaching our students. Within our coaching program we have ten different two to four day bootcamps we offer on a variety of topics from residential to commercial.
We also understand the value of the knowledge, systems, software, marketing collateral, and standard operating procedures we have spent countless hours developing over the past 13 years that our students use.
I would never claim that we are the only or the cheapest road to success as there are many educators out there. People can read books, attend local networking groups, and spend a lot of time trying to piece together information.
I do think people sometimes underestimate the risk associated with real estate. We believe the only way to reduce that risk is to get a solid education. I realize when you see an advertisement its natural to have a certain amount of skepticism, but just because there is an investment for what we offer does not mean it’s a scam.
We have helped a lot of our students over the years start very successful real estate investing businesses who previously had no background in real estate. We have also helped industry veterans grow their existing real estate investment businesses. At the same time, we also have people who haven’t had as much success as we would like yet.
However, we will continue to do everything we can to continually improve what we do, what we teach, and how we help our community of students.
Both Than and I are extremely involved in teaching our classes, both online and at our live events, and we will continue to work hard to help our students in any way we can.
If anyone has a question please feel free to reach out to me directly below.
Thats funny I got a call today, I get them regularly every 3 months.
Please answer me this, in all honesty, do you make more money on your 30+ projects or more money from selling "the dream of house flipping" for up to $50K. I know the value of a mentor and some guidance but really if it was so damn profitable why are you on every TV show and radio and Facebook ad trying to get so many to do this. Its so frustrating that this is the status quo. Also if 1000 people sign up for your program [and if you get 1000 people we know how profitable this is for you] how many can find, fix and flip a house successfully.
95% of the investors are chasing just 5% of the deals how can this go on. The only thing I can say is I am in the wrong business and should be selling a course on flipping houses versus flipping houses.
- Rental Property Investor · Dallas, TX · Member since 2018 · 5 posts · 0 votes7y
I have attended the free 2 hour seminar they advertised on public radio. I thought what do I have to lose if it's a free seminar and it was actually free but they said they would give you access to several EBOOKS in the email and the seminar which you don't actually get unless you pay for the "Three day Workshop". I was disappointed they had lied to me. If they lied to us in the beginning about the free ebooks how could I believe anything else they were saying... The information presented at the seminar was bits and pieces of legitimate information on Real Estate investing.. HOWEVER they do stop presenting this valuable information after an hour in and the next hour is a SALES PITCH on joining an up coming "3 day Real Estate investing workshop" which I also attended because I actually enjoyed the information the presenter at the 2 hour free seminar presented... The 3 day workshop tickets were non-refundable. At this 3 day workshop it was the exact same thing that had happened at the Free seminar but this time the Sales pitch was on getting people to join a group called "MASTERY" which is up to $50,000... huh?... about 3 hours was actually informative information on real estate information but then after lunch the Sales pitch began.... I sat through a 3 hour sales pitch on why i should join MASTERY... I was pissed I had called the day off work Friday to attend this waste of time and money... The majority of the class was oblivious to what was happening which was the sad part. The presenter Preyed on these vulnerable people's emotions to try to get them to hand over their money to join the "Mastery". We were asked to share our stories on stage on why we were here... I was hear to potentially hear valuable information... They claimed if you join Mastery they would "Hold your hand" through your first deal.. Everytime someone asked a good question the presenter would NEVER answer the question directly.,, instead he would say "Great question we'll go over this in the next day or the next topic" which never happened. He did this over and over again. Sometimes he would hypothetically say MASTERY is the answer to all your questions.... Complete ********.
- Member since 2019 · 1 post · 0 votes7y
It's like the ritch dad poor dad free seminar. They show you how to wholesale (kinda) and tell you it's the easiest thing to do with their system and then they try hard as hell to sell you their system and make you think that if you dont buy in at that exact moment you will never find a better offer. Lol been. There done that tho It was free and to some people it was new information. I felt robbed out of my time. I was really mad by the end of the course specially with them trying to threaten me out of a "life time deal" nope not worth your time unless you're a Newbee!
- Real Estate Agent · Palm Springs, CA · Member since 2016 · 81 posts · 112 votes7y
**GURU ALERT*** ****GURU ALERT**** ***GURU ALERT***
Come to my free event...listen to my pitch to buy my lowest price course and get an exclusive invite to my next seminar where you'll get....
Pitched again to pay even more money after learning very little so you can join the next level of suckers. But WAIT! There's more!!
Come to my BIG event an REALLY PROVE you're a sucker!
**GURU ALERT*** ****GURU ALERT**** ***GURU ALERT***
You're on BP. You've got all the help and support at your fingertips.
- 7yDennis S. GelbartPro MemberDeveloper · Illinois-Wisconsin · Member since 2019 · 68 posts · 17 votes
I have no affiliation with the organization. I attended one of their seminars and paid $197 for three days. The mentors- teachers ARE real. They do invest in real estate. They have some great points and suggestions and some excellent approaches to obtaining financing and how to structure deals.
NOTE , their goal in my opinion, and it is only my opinion.... is yes to help "students" but to get those students to sign up for the MASTERY program, as well as to invest in their own deals. That is fare game.
I met a gentleman who DID sign up for the Mastery program and paid a significant amount of money. A week later he told me he was called a number of times to help him and mentor him as well as set up other calls and discussions.
Therefore, on the one hand at the seminar I attended they spent at least 35% pushing their MASTERY product and spent another 20% disclaiming that you will make any money from their suggestions. THIS IS PERFECTLY legit since any advise is not necessarily going to work. The other 45% was good solid content.
This is just my opinion. I think they are honest people but charge heftily for their services.
- Real Estate Agent · Easton, MD · Member since 2019 · 17 posts · 17 votes7y
Your sure to learn a few things. However, for the most part these "free" seminars simply act as a form of lead generation for the individual (whom won't even be there btw). They just continue to up-sell you on more classes and products. Honestly, your better off reading a few good books on the subject and just learning as much as you can, anyway you can.
- Member since 2019 · 45 posts · 11 votes7y
Definitely a scam. All of those "Guru's" wouldn't be spending their time teaching people how to do it if they were so good at it. It's just another form of income
- Member since 2019 · 1 post · 0 votes7y
ABSOLUTELY 100 percent SCAM. Anybody on here who says it’s not a scam absolutely is benefiting from the poor suckers who get involved with this scam. What I am saying is True. I don’t know how these people sleep at night knowing how many people they have screwed out of there hard earned money. ITS SICKENING.
- Flipper/Rehabber · Pasadena, MD · Member since 2016 · 19 posts · 9 votes7y
Michael seeker made some good points about the gurus stuff. I joined Fortune Builder about 6 years ago and they were honest and a good group of people. It cost 32k at the time and they did not live up to the hype but were not by any means bad. My experience over the last 10 years has been the big GURU are more of board teaching theory and and don't focus on your results. To be fair to them it kind of impossible to run a 200 million dollar coaching business and work hand to hand with each student. They focus on our desire do it quickly and the coaches i have had the best results with have focused on building slowly and systematically. Small groups with lots of interaction and consistent weekly growth would be my best advice. Plus a big bonus is they are usually a lot more affordable.
- Member since 2019 · 1 post · 0 votes7y
I have a question to everyone who posted a statement regarding Fortune Builders after my statement below.
I seen a TV ad getting you to come to a seminar. In the ad, they state you receive a free breakfast (How is the breakfast?), and tell you it's a 2-hr seminar to show you how to purchase, fix and resell property. It states that you never use your own money. They investors will pay for the property, pay to fix it up, and take only 5% of the commission you receive. in all the blogs I have read, no one mentions anything like this.
So my question is, is this the same seminar you guys have all attended? Again, how was the breakfast?
I'm just wondering if I should still attend this seminar. I can save up and purchase my own property, fix it up and resll for a higher cost. I was interested because they stated their investor do it all for you. You find the property, buy ity with their money, fix it up yourself with their money and resll it. You give 5% commission to these people. That sounds like a great deal. I can do that, but I don't have extra money to attend a 3- day seminar yet alone pay 30-50% for a Mastery class. I will just skip the seminar altogether if that is the case.
- 7yCornelius CharlesPro MemberInvestor · Oxnard, CA · Member since 2014 · 438 posts · 187 votes
I must admit that i am not really tuned into what Fortune Builders (FB) is teaching now-a-days. Are you sure the commercial really says that? People in the past have said that FB advertises that they will partner with you and give you funding, but I've never heard them advertise that. I know one of their commercials say they will teach you how to invest using other people's money, but i don't think i've seen/heard them say they will help you pay for your properties. And if they are doing that now, my guess is their criteria for doing so what be super stringent and it would have to be a GREAT deal for them to finance it.
- Shawnee Mission, KS · Member since 2016 · 716 posts · 313 votes7y
Any one that would pay 50-k to a guru does not have the business savvy to be in this game of flipping /rehabbing rentals.
- Real Estate Broker · Auburn, WA · Member since 2015 · 151 posts · 106 votes7y
One os my long time friends bought a course from one of those (will sell you anything) for $10,000.
That's exactly what they did! They didn't listen to me and bought one of those programs for FLIPPING HOUSES for $10,000. Not only were they embarrassed for purchasing the pile of copied paper they were insulted by the people who sold them this pile of paper, for not making it work because it had worked for thousands of others.
Oh yeah, they finally gave me the course they bought and I looked it over. It is information that EVERYONE can get from a LIBRARY or the local county tax assessor by just going there or making a few calls.
DON'T BUY INTO THESE THINGS PEOPLE!
- Rental Property Investor · Higginson, AR · Member since 2015 · 123 posts · 101 votes7yI went to a program when was in little rock A few years ago. Never pass a chance to learn something. The program offered was about 30K . needless to say I left and bought a house with my 30K
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