Why Class D/Section 8 returns are not as good in Real Life vs on Paper - Real example

Why Class D/Section 8 returns are not as good in Real Life vs on Paper - Real example

Alan AsriantsBusiness Member
Real Estate Agent · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2019 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes

I often share this story with potential clients, investors, and those looking to start their real estate investment journey. My goal is simple: to illustrate why investing in lower-priced neighborhoods can be riskier and less rewarding than it seems.

I had a client who owned five properties in these areas, all rented through Section 8. He purchased them about seven years ago for an average of $80,000 each. Since they needed renovations, he invested roughly $30,000 per property to make them rent-ready—bringing his total investment to $110,000 per unit.

Once rented, he quickly encountered issues: non-payment, eviction filings, constant repairs, and tenant-related damages. Over seven years, he barely turned a profit. By the time he covered eviction costs, lost rental income, and re-renovated after tenant turnovers, any potential gains were erased.

Seven years later, his properties had appreciated to about $130,000 each—a 62% increase on paper. Sounds good, right?

Not exactly.

Before listing each property, he had to invest another $15,000–$30,000 just to refresh them for sale. Despite holding them for seven years without making any real profit, his total investment per property had now ballooned to roughly $140,000. And that’s before factoring in selling costs—commissions, taxes, and closing expenses. When the numbers were tallied, he had actually lost about $10,000–$20,000 per property.

Here’s the kicker: Had he simply bought the properties for $80,000, left them vacant for seven years, and only paid taxes and insurance (about $1,500 per year per property), his all-in cost would’ve been around $90,500. Even after spending $15,000 on a basic refresh, he could have sold for $130,000—without the headaches of evictions, repairs, and property management. And yet, after all expenses, he would have barely made a few thousand dollars.

So, despite the 62% appreciation, he still lost money. And that’s not even accounting for the countless hours spent managing the properties. He was burned out.

The Problem is two fold:

  1. Cash Flow on Paper ≠ Real Cash Flow
    Many investors assume rental income will flow smoothly, but that’s rarely the case in high-risk areas. In Philadelphia, for example, landlords cannot deny a Section 8 tenant based on credit score—only for violent crimes or drug offenses. That means even applicants with a 400 credit score may qualify, increasing the risk of evictions, non-payment, and high maintenance costs. The projected returns often don’t materialize in real life.
  2. Appreciation Is Misleading in Low-Value Markets
    While values in these areas do rise, the percentage gains are deceiving due to low starting values. So even a whopping 62% increase is only 50k of a 80k property. 
  3. What baffles me most is how easily people jump into these investments in unfamiliar neighborhoods - especially out of state! It’s like choosing to invest in a friend’s startup instead of the S&P 500—just because the startup promises big returns at a lower entry point. The logic doesn’t hold up...


Let’s compare this with another investor who took a different approach.

Seven years ago, Investor X purchased a duplex in a stronger market for $300,000. They invested $50,000 in cosmetic renovations, bringing their total investment to $350,000. From the start, they cash-flowed around $500/month, had minimal tenant issues, and turned a profit year after year with little management hassle. Keep in mind rents also went up and opportunities to refinance were also available - elevating that figure. 

Today, that duplex is worth $475,000–$500,000. If they sell, they barely need to renovate because the demand is high for high quality RE. Their appreciation profit alone is nearly $100,000, and that’s not even counting rental income earned over the years. With 100k there's plenty left over after commissions and closing costs are paid.

Don’t chase high cash flow and "too good to be true" returns. If an investment looks too good to be true, it probably is. And please stop listening to gurus and paying them. it is their job to "sell" you something, not build a relationship with you. Its a lot harder to sell a $15,000 course that's titled: Invest in high quality assets and build solid equity vs "Passive income while you sleep - how section 8 helped me build a $100k/m portfolio"

Good luck!

Alan Asriants - New Century Real Estate 590 Reviews
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Investor · Costa Mesa, CA · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
1y

I have been preaching this on BP for years. Fewer but better properties. Unfortunately, many new investors drool over how many crapboxes they can buy and brag to their friends about owning. After ignoring advice, their next post is often, “How do I evict my non paying tenant?” Or the always popular, “My tenant moved out and stole my washer, dryer, water heater and light fixtures!!!”

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Greg ScottPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · SE Michigan · Member since 2014 · 4k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    1y

    Great post. I would add that the problem extends beyond Class D properties.

    Twice I rented B class rentals to Section 8 residents.  In both cases after they moved out I had to spend a lot to bring the property back to its previous condition.  Those rehabs used up all the cashflow I had from their tenancy.  I made zero profit from operating the property.  At least I got good appreciation from those properties.

    These days, many state governments are trying to force more landlords to accept Section 8.

  • Stuart UdisPro Member
    Attorney · Philadelphia · Member since 2018 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    1y

    Lower tier rental properties are a profit center, unfortunately rarely for the owner. Just look at  Alan's example which is an accurate depiction of how these properties often pan out when viewed through an extended time period. Regardless of whether the owner turns a profit, brokers are called up on to sell, lease and manage, lenders will finance, contractors (often affiliated with PM companies will be called upon to put out the constant fires). In fact, the more issues that arise, the more profitable theses properties become for the ancillary service providers....and you want to know why these investments are pushed aggressively by so many (besides of course requiring nothing more than a pulse to buy them). 

    • Rental Property Investor · Palm Springs, CA · Member since 2023 · 20 posts · 9 votes
      1y
      Quote from @Stuart Udis:

      Lower tier rental properties are a profit center, unfortunately rarely for the owner. Just look at  Alan's example which is an accurate depiction of how these properties often pan out when viewed through an extended time period. Regardless of whether the owner turns a profit, brokers are called up on to sell, lease and manage, lenders will finance, contractors (often affiliated with PM companies will be called upon to put out the constant fires). In fact, the more issues that arise, the more profitable theses properties become for the ancillary service providers....and you want to know why these investments are pushed aggressively by so many (besides of course requiring nothing more than a pulse to buy them). 

      Damn. This reply should be required reading for every buyer ever. 
  • Alan AsriantsBusiness Member
    OP
    Real Estate Agent · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2019 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @Stuart Udis:

    Lower tier rental properties are a profit center, unfortunately rarely for the owner. Just look at  Alan's example which is an accurate depiction of how these properties often pan out when viewed through an extended time period. Regardless of whether the owner turns a profit, brokers are called up on to sell, lease and manage, lenders will finance, contractors (often affiliated with PM companies will be called upon to put out the constant fires). In fact, the more issues that arise, the more profitable theses properties become for the ancillary service providers....and you want to know why these investments are pushed aggressively by so many (besides of course requiring nothing more than a pulse to buy them). 


     Its a lot easier for me to sell a cash flowing property in these areas and have 0 competition with other buyers than to educate the buyer and try to help them buy in a strong area (since competition is high). In fact I have lost quite a few clients who didnt want to trust my judgement and went for lower tier properties with another agent instead. 

    Alan Asriants - New Century Real Estate 590 Reviews
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  • Drew SygitBusiness Member
    Property Manager · Royal Oak, MI · Member since 2012 · 12k+ posts · 9k+ votes
    1y

    @Alan Asriants VERY GOOD POST!

    Am so TIRED of trying to explain this to naive newbies who think they need to buy Class D rentals because that's all they can afford and S8 is going to solve all their cashflow problems!

    We try to help them as best we can, but then our name gets trashed when they don't get their paper results - because you know, EVERYTHING is the PMCs fault.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @Greg Scott:

    Great post. I would add that the problem extends beyond Class D properties.

    Twice I rented B class rentals to Section 8 residents.  In both cases after they moved out I had to spend a lot to bring the property back to its previous condition.  Those rehabs used up all the cashflow I had from their tenancy.  I made zero profit from operating the property.  At least I got good appreciation from those properties.

    These days, many state governments are trying to force more landlords to accept Section 8.


    one of my clients in the deep south was mentioning in her section 8 portfolios she manages for investors. Turnovers have gone from 2k on average to 4k or more.  So when you look at proforma's showing tenant turn over at 1k which was a number that worked 20 years ago these investors are already underwater.

    From my experince and I drank the cool aid myself and had over 200 section 8 SFRs.. yes we got rent rarely did we get the co pay or if we got it had to chase it.. They dont get kicked off the system for what is deemed normal wear and tear and to Most investors once one of my section 8 tenants left the property there was a huge discrepancy in what we all think of normal wear and tear.. 

    The reality is section 8 tenants are dominated by single mothers with 1 to 5 kids at least that was my experience and when you have kids from babies to teens and everything in between your houses are going to take a beating.. Just think about raising our own kids those toddlers really can mess up your paint and sheetrock and other items.. So you multiply that and well your turn overs are going to be costly. 

    So as long as someone gets realistic with the TRUE cost to  own and maintain and the numbers work it can work but I am a big proponent if your going to have these types of assets they need to be paid for to really enjoy any financial benefit.

    lastly I can say the same thing about new builds.. over the long haul unless there is REAL appreciation more than just 2 or 3% if you sell within say 10 years your going to be lucky to break even as your going to have to spend 20 to 30k making the houses fresh again to get top dollar a 10 year old rental is not going to bring top dollar and the value at that point will only be what an investors will pay for a given cash flow.. I learned this when I bought 12 new builds for GOZONE tax bene's really nice brick homes in best part of town but values just did not rise enough so by the time i had to change everything out and pay sales commish it was break even at best.. TAX bene's were the play and GOZONE was great tax bene's but you cant count on a katrina for your investing thesis
  • Investor · Costa Mesa, CA · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    1y

    I have been preaching this on BP for years. Fewer but better properties. Unfortunately, many new investors drool over how many crapboxes they can buy and brag to their friends about owning. After ignoring advice, their next post is often, “How do I evict my non paying tenant?” Or the always popular, “My tenant moved out and stole my washer, dryer, water heater and light fixtures!!!”

  • Alan AsriantsBusiness Member
    OP
    Real Estate Agent · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2019 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @Drew Sygit:

    @Alan Asriants VERY GOOD POST!

    Am so TIRED of trying to explain this to naive newbies who think they need to buy Class D rentals because that's all they can afford and S8 is going to solve all their cashflow problems!

    We try to help them as best we can, but then our name gets trashed when they don't get their paper results - because you know, EVERYTHING is the PMCs fault.


    Many times in RE, spending more means a better asset which means less risk and in the long run, better results

    People want results fast, they don't want to wait. 

    Alan Asriants - New Century Real Estate 590 Reviews
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  • Alan AsriantsBusiness Member
    OP
    Real Estate Agent · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2019 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @Greg Scott:

    Great post. I would add that the problem extends beyond Class D properties.

    Twice I rented B class rentals to Section 8 residents.  In both cases after they moved out I had to spend a lot to bring the property back to its previous condition.  Those rehabs used up all the cashflow I had from their tenancy.  I made zero profit from operating the property.  At least I got good appreciation from those properties.

    These days, many state governments are trying to force more landlords to accept Section 8.

    Thats a great point! I would even argue that Section 8 in Class B is even more of a silly mistake. When you have a solid tenant pool why choose from lower tier? 

    Alan Asriants - New Century Real Estate 590 Reviews
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  • Alan AsriantsBusiness Member
    OP
    Real Estate Agent · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2019 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @Eric Gerakos:

    I have been preaching this on BP for years. Fewer but better properties. Unfortunately, many new investors drool over how many crapboxes they can buy and brag to their friends about owning. After ignoring advice, their next post is often, “How do I evict my non paying tenant?” Or the always popular, “My tenant moved out and stole my washer, dryer, water heater and light fixtures!!!”


     LOL! More units mean more rolexes! 

    Many people succumb to quick fix results. Thats why drugs like Ozempic are so popular. No one wants to put in the effort, work, time and money, into a healthy habit or - for real estate - into a solid asset. They want the cash flow now but aren't worried about the side effects of the quick fix or lower tier asset. Lots of things in life have parallels. The majority will always jump to the easy solution thinking it will solve all of their problems. Usually the side effects are worse than the actual thing they are trying to cure. 

    Alan Asriants - New Century Real Estate 590 Reviews
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  • Alan AsriantsBusiness Member
    OP
    Real Estate Agent · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2019 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
    Quote from @Greg Scott:

    Great post. I would add that the problem extends beyond Class D properties.

    Twice I rented B class rentals to Section 8 residents.  In both cases after they moved out I had to spend a lot to bring the property back to its previous condition.  Those rehabs used up all the cashflow I had from their tenancy.  I made zero profit from operating the property.  At least I got good appreciation from those properties.

    These days, many state governments are trying to force more landlords to accept Section 8.


    one of my clients in the deep south was mentioning in her section 8 portfolios she manages for investors. Turnovers have gone from 2k on average to 4k or more.  So when you look at proforma's showing tenant turn over at 1k which was a number that worked 20 years ago these investors are already underwater.

    From my experince and I drank the cool aid myself and had over 200 section 8 SFRs.. yes we got rent rarely did we get the co pay or if we got it had to chase it.. They dont get kicked off the system for what is deemed normal wear and tear and to Most investors once one of my section 8 tenants left the property there was a huge discrepancy in what we all think of normal wear and tear.. 

    The reality is section 8 tenants are dominated by single mothers with 1 to 5 kids at least that was my experience and when you have kids from babies to teens and everything in between your houses are going to take a beating.. Just think about raising our own kids those toddlers really can mess up your paint and sheetrock and other items.. So you multiply that and well your turn overs are going to be costly. 

    So as long as someone gets realistic with the TRUE cost to  own and maintain and the numbers work it can work but I am a big proponent if your going to have these types of assets they need to be paid for to really enjoy any financial benefit.

    lastly I can say the same thing about new builds.. over the long haul unless there is REAL appreciation more than just 2 or 3% if you sell within say 10 years your going to be lucky to break even as your going to have to spend 20 to 30k making the houses fresh again to get top dollar a 10 year old rental is not going to bring top dollar and the value at that point will only be what an investors will pay for a given cash flow.. I learned this when I bought 12 new builds for GOZONE tax bene's really nice brick homes in best part of town but values just did not rise enough so by the time i had to change everything out and pay sales commish it was break even at best.. TAX bene's were the play and GOZONE was great tax bene's but you cant count on a katrina for your investing thesis

    A wise person would listen to your story and stray away from this type of investment. I heard somewhere and can't find the article anymore that PHA has over a billion in outstanding repairs. I could be wrong on that number but wouldn't even be surprised. Each turnover is pretty much as you said a much larger expense than anticipated. and to keep putting that kind of renovation money into a 100-150k asset is really a waste of money. Every person I have talked to that "did" section 8, always "did" it, meaning they aren't doing it anymore. 

    Alan Asriants - New Century Real Estate 590 Reviews
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  • Alan AsriantsBusiness Member
    OP
    Real Estate Agent · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2019 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @Stuart Udis:

    Lower tier rental properties are a profit center, unfortunately rarely for the owner. Just look at  Alan's example which is an accurate depiction of how these properties often pan out when viewed through an extended time period. Regardless of whether the owner turns a profit, brokers are called up on to sell, lease and manage, lenders will finance, contractors (often affiliated with PM companies will be called upon to put out the constant fires). In fact, the more issues that arise, the more profitable theses properties become for the ancillary service providers....and you want to know why these investments are pushed aggressively by so many (besides of course requiring nothing more than a pulse to buy them). 


     Its like BMW and other manufactures who make their money on service not on the car that deprecates 50% when you drive it off the lot lol. 

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  • Joe S.Pro Member
    Investor · San Antonio · Member since 2020 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    1y

    Not every area is as easy to grade as someone might think even if a person lives locally. If a person is from out of the area, it even gets more difficult.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @Alan Asriants:
    Quote from @Eric Gerakos:

    I have been preaching this on BP for years. Fewer but better properties. Unfortunately, many new investors drool over how many crapboxes they can buy and brag to their friends about owning. After ignoring advice, their next post is often, “How do I evict my non paying tenant?” Or the always popular, “My tenant moved out and stole my washer, dryer, water heater and light fixtures!!!”


     LOL! More units mean more rolexes! 

    Many people succumb to quick fix results. Thats why drugs like Ozempic are so popular. No one wants to put in the effort, work, time and money, into a healthy habit or - for real estate - into a solid asset. They want the cash flow now but aren't worried about the side effects of the quick fix or lower tier asset. Lots of things in life have parallels. The majority will always jump to the easy solution thinking it will solve all of their problems. Usually the side effects are worse than the actual thing they are trying to cure. 


    one truism I think for rental real estate is returns and price points are very much risk adjusted highest returns lowest price points  biggest risk.. smaller cap or return and prime location least risk.. One just needs to choose.  As noted I drank the cool aid on the high return higher risk and for me was not what I wanted .. now all we have is a few top shelf and I like that no calls values hold exit is real etc etc.. One can do well with low price high risk but max leverage and thinking our going to sit in your barcolounger while you let your tenants pay for your retirement is not reality unless you live there and work it basically daily..  Now there are tertiary markets in the US that will be low value assets but not super high risk those are your smaller towns but your upside is severely limited. But they will cash flow and they can be somewhat passive.. Section 8 by and large does not meet that description.
  • Developer · New York City, NY · Member since 2015 · 812 posts · 718 votes
    1y

    Philly is a tough animal.  There are a few decent areas, but most are run down and trouble.  Generally speaking, it's not worth the headache in Philly.  Maybe if you can get something in Downtown Philly.  But most has a long way to go before Philly turns around.

  • Stuart UdisPro Member
    Attorney · Philadelphia · Member since 2018 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    1y

    @Calvin Thomas I would disagree with your assessment of Philadelphia. The city has excellent fundamentals...strong Ed's and Med's which are some of the most stable employers, huge investments made in the life science sector,  proximity and easy access to NYC and DC, international airport, port city to name a few. 

    Like most cities, there are some neighborhoods that perform better than others but to say only the center city area is worthy of investment is inaccurate. Unfortunately, 99% of BiggerPockets posters who are not local to Philadelphia and choose to invest in Philadelphia invest in the lowest tier neighborhoods, just as they do in most other distant markets where they invest because they are lured in by the inexpensive cost of housing. 

    I also hear complaints about the city not being a "landlord friendly" city. Well, I can say from my personal experience owning only A/B located properties, if you maintain all appropriate licenses, take care of your properties, and are responsive to your tenants its smooth sailings. Its usually the tenants who live in the lowest tier housing that are most prone to play games and take advantage. 

    Also, my worst performing project the past few years was a center city ground up project. My NW Philadelphia projects which are on the outskirts of Philadelphia (but still city proper) have been my best performers. Many others have enjoyed similar success there as well.

  • Developer · New York City, NY · Member since 2015 · 812 posts · 718 votes
    1y
    Quote from @Stuart Udis:

    @Calvin Thomas I would disagree with your assessment of Philadelphia. The city has excellent fundamentals...strong Ed's and Med's which are some of the most stable employers, huge investments made in the life science sector,  proximity and easy access to NYC and DC, international airport, port city to name a few. 

    Like most cities, there are some neighborhoods that perform better than others but to say only the center city area is worthy of investment is inaccurate. Unfortunately, 99% of BiggerPockets posters who are not local to Philadelphia and choose to invest in Philadelphia invest in the lowest tier neighborhoods, just as they do in most other distant markets where they invest because they are lured in by the inexpensive cost of housing. 

    I also hear complaints about the city not being a "landlord friendly" city. Well, I can say from my personal experience owning only A/B located properties, if you maintain all appropriate licenses, take care of your properties, and are responsive to your tenants its smooth sailings. Its usually the tenants who live in the lowest tier housing that are most prone to play games and take advantage. 

    Also, my worst performing project the past few years was a center city ground up project. My NW Philadelphia projects which are on the outskirts of Philadelphia (but still city proper) have been my best performers. Many others have enjoyed similar success there as well.


    You are welcome to your opinion, but the city is mostly dangerous and not very safe.  You have pockets that are fine, but a lot more is needed for the city.  Overall, it's not pretty for Philly in general.  In time, we will see.
  • Member since 2024 · 3 posts · 5 votes
    1y

    We are also selling our section 8 sfr. Original costs were low enough that we paid them off within 10 yrs and in spite of operating cost increases of ret, Ins and r&m benefited from cash all along. However, today's conditions have convinced us to sell all and we are unconvinced most sfr will perform any better than the s&p500. Depreciation and other deductions aside, irr on our sfr have lagged the s&p all without collections, code compliance as well as escalating municipal rental regulations of permits and licenses. Glad we are exiting and not entering the investment cycle at present 

  • Alan AsriantsBusiness Member
    OP
    Real Estate Agent · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2019 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
    Quote from @Alan Asriants:
    Quote from @Eric Gerakos:

    I have been preaching this on BP for years. Fewer but better properties. Unfortunately, many new investors drool over how many crapboxes they can buy and brag to their friends about owning. After ignoring advice, their next post is often, “How do I evict my non paying tenant?” Or the always popular, “My tenant moved out and stole my washer, dryer, water heater and light fixtures!!!”


     LOL! More units mean more rolexes! 

    Many people succumb to quick fix results. Thats why drugs like Ozempic are so popular. No one wants to put in the effort, work, time and money, into a healthy habit or - for real estate - into a solid asset. They want the cash flow now but aren't worried about the side effects of the quick fix or lower tier asset. Lots of things in life have parallels. The majority will always jump to the easy solution thinking it will solve all of their problems. Usually the side effects are worse than the actual thing they are trying to cure. 


    one truism I think for rental real estate is returns and price points are very much risk adjusted highest returns lowest price points  biggest risk.. smaller cap or return and prime location least risk.. One just needs to choose.  As noted I drank the cool aid on the high return higher risk and for me was not what I wanted .. now all we have is a few top shelf and I like that no calls values hold exit is real etc etc.. One can do well with low price high risk but max leverage and thinking our going to sit in your barcolounger while you let your tenants pay for your retirement is not reality unless you live there and work it basically daily..  Now there are tertiary markets in the US that will be low value assets but not super high risk those are your smaller towns but your upside is severely limited. But they will cash flow and they can be somewhat passive.. Section 8 by and large does not meet that description.

    They are certainly better markets for cash flow and do not pose higher risk but you certainly are shorted on your appreciation side of things. Im sure the midewest is better for cash flow but the upside is limited as you mentioned. They will go up in value but it is not the same as a more established location in NE or PNW for example. 

    I agree on the no calls. I think thats the best investment - the one that doesn't give you a headache

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  • Alan AsriantsBusiness Member
    OP
    Real Estate Agent · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2019 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @Stuart Udis:

    @Calvin Thomas I would disagree with your assessment of Philadelphia. The city has excellent fundamentals...strong Ed's and Med's which are some of the most stable employers, huge investments made in the life science sector,  proximity and easy access to NYC and DC, international airport, port city to name a few. 

    Like most cities, there are some neighborhoods that perform better than others but to say only the center city area is worthy of investment is inaccurate. Unfortunately, 99% of BiggerPockets posters who are not local to Philadelphia and choose to invest in Philadelphia invest in the lowest tier neighborhoods, just as they do in most other distant markets where they invest because they are lured in by the inexpensive cost of housing. 

    I also hear complaints about the city not being a "landlord friendly" city. Well, I can say from my personal experience owning only A/B located properties, if you maintain all appropriate licenses, take care of your properties, and are responsive to your tenants its smooth sailings. Its usually the tenants who live in the lowest tier housing that are most prone to play games and take advantage. 

    Also, my worst performing project the past few years was a center city ground up project. My NW Philadelphia projects which are on the outskirts of Philadelphia (but still city proper) have been my best performers. Many others have enjoyed similar success there as well.


     Have to agree here. Also downtown philly is not the best market rn either. The stronger markets are actually places like: NE phila, W Mount Airy, and chestnut hill

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  • Alan AsriantsBusiness Member
    OP
    Real Estate Agent · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2019 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @Calvin Thomas:
    Quote from @Stuart Udis:

    @Calvin Thomas I would disagree with your assessment of Philadelphia. The city has excellent fundamentals...strong Ed's and Med's which are some of the most stable employers, huge investments made in the life science sector,  proximity and easy access to NYC and DC, international airport, port city to name a few. 

    Like most cities, there are some neighborhoods that perform better than others but to say only the center city area is worthy of investment is inaccurate. Unfortunately, 99% of BiggerPockets posters who are not local to Philadelphia and choose to invest in Philadelphia invest in the lowest tier neighborhoods, just as they do in most other distant markets where they invest because they are lured in by the inexpensive cost of housing. 

    I also hear complaints about the city not being a "landlord friendly" city. Well, I can say from my personal experience owning only A/B located properties, if you maintain all appropriate licenses, take care of your properties, and are responsive to your tenants its smooth sailings. Its usually the tenants who live in the lowest tier housing that are most prone to play games and take advantage. 

    Also, my worst performing project the past few years was a center city ground up project. My NW Philadelphia projects which are on the outskirts of Philadelphia (but still city proper) have been my best performers. Many others have enjoyed similar success there as well.


    You are welcome to your opinion, but the city is mostly dangerous and not very safe.  You have pockets that are fine, but a lot more is needed for the city.  Overall, it's not pretty for Philly in general.  In time, we will see.

     again where you invest is importnant. A lot of out of state investors try to go for "up and coming neighborhoods"

    They are called up and coming for a reason. And if you're looking for "pockets" within a neighborhood you are generally already doing the wrong thing. NE Phila, W and E mount airy, roxborough, manayunk, east falls, chestnut hill cover large land areas - and there are plenty of surrounding suburbs there too that are great makrets. 

    Sure if youre looking in Brewerytown because a local agent or article online told you its up and coming, then yeah, that market is risky. I would never invest in an area where I had to choose the right block and cross st. If I can walk to a sketchy side of a neighborhood - im not buying there. I need to be at least a couple minutes by car away

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    • Developer · New York City, NY · Member since 2015 · 812 posts · 718 votes
      1y
      Quote from @Alan Asriants:
      Quote from @Calvin Thomas:
      Quote from @Stuart Udis:

      @Calvin Thomas I would disagree with your assessment of Philadelphia. The city has excellent fundamentals...strong Ed's and Med's which are some of the most stable employers, huge investments made in the life science sector,  proximity and easy access to NYC and DC, international airport, port city to name a few. 

      Like most cities, there are some neighborhoods that perform better than others but to say only the center city area is worthy of investment is inaccurate. Unfortunately, 99% of BiggerPockets posters who are not local to Philadelphia and choose to invest in Philadelphia invest in the lowest tier neighborhoods, just as they do in most other distant markets where they invest because they are lured in by the inexpensive cost of housing. 

      I also hear complaints about the city not being a "landlord friendly" city. Well, I can say from my personal experience owning only A/B located properties, if you maintain all appropriate licenses, take care of your properties, and are responsive to your tenants its smooth sailings. Its usually the tenants who live in the lowest tier housing that are most prone to play games and take advantage. 

      Also, my worst performing project the past few years was a center city ground up project. My NW Philadelphia projects which are on the outskirts of Philadelphia (but still city proper) have been my best performers. Many others have enjoyed similar success there as well.


      You are welcome to your opinion, but the city is mostly dangerous and not very safe.  You have pockets that are fine, but a lot more is needed for the city.  Overall, it's not pretty for Philly in general.  In time, we will see.

       again where you invest is importnant. A lot of out of state investors try to go for "up and coming neighborhoods"

      They are called up and coming for a reason. And if you're looking for "pockets" within a neighborhood you are generally already doing the wrong thing. NE Phila, W and E mount airy, roxborough, manayunk, east falls, chestnut hill cover large land areas - and there are plenty of surrounding suburbs there too that are great makrets. 

      Sure if youre looking in Brewerytown because a local agent or article online told you its up and coming, then yeah, that market is risky. I would never invest in an area where I had to choose the right block and cross st. If I can walk to a sketchy side of a neighborhood - im not buying there. I need to be at least a couple minutes by car away


       We have a few in Downtown we stole after the last downturn.  As with most major cities, it's block by block.  The tenant friendly laws in Philly are as bad or worse than NYC and Hudson County, NJ.

  • Member since 2024 · 3 posts · 5 votes
    1y

    Reflecting on the last 20+ yrs, when we could cash flow immediately with low cost sfr, had we gone with the higher priced properties and significantly lower cash flow, more debt, we could not have achieved IRRs even close to what the lower end product has delivered, nor paid off the investments.  We have no regrets, other than possibly selling earlier than at present.  The future will tell us more, however, we are unconvinced that future capital outlays will abate as R&M likely continue to spiral with RET, Ins. and continued regulatory interference.

  • Financial Advisor · Fort Worth, TX · Member since 2021 · 24 posts · 12 votes
    1y

    I have a property that I renovated and would like to turn into a rental instead of a flip. Most of the horror section 8 land Lord stories I've heard of are where the Tennant wasn't vetted and simply took them in for the voucher. Some states/county rules are more favorable than others for the landlord.

    Any positive experiences here from landlords that were able to properly screened the tenants first?

    • Investor · Fort Washington, MD · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
      1y
      Quote from @Brian Bisdorf:

      I have a property that I renovated and would like to turn into a rental instead of a flip. Most of the horror section 8 land Lord stories I've heard of are where the Tennant wasn't vetted and simply took them in for the voucher. Some states/county rules are more favorable than others for the landlord.

      Any positive experiences here from landlords that were able to properly screened the tenants first?


       Many people make this asset class work. The problem for most of these investors is they don't understand the community or the people they are serving. Also, many do not show them any sense of respect. For all the people who preach this can't work, you should also talk to the people who do. I successfully navigated this space for over a decade. 

  • Stuart UdisPro Member
    Attorney · Philadelphia · Member since 2018 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    1y

    @Brian Bisdorf It's always important to vet tenants but as a general rule of thumb, the better situated the real estate, the better quality of tenant you can attract. This is something that's rarely represented correctly in most spreadsheets and has a significant impact on operational costs. I find this to be a leading reason why better situated real estate is often overlooked by investors who are chasing cash flow. Second only to fixed costs of operation which disproportionately impact the lower cost properties often leased to subsidized tenants (also rarely represented correctly on spreadsheets pre-purchase).

  • Financial Advisor · Fort Worth, TX · Member since 2021 · 24 posts · 12 votes
    1y
    Quote from @Stuart Udis:

    @Brian Bisdorf It's always important to vet tenants but as a general rule of thumb, the better situated the real estate, the better quality of tenant you can attract. This is something that's rarely represented correctly in most spreadsheets and has a significant impact on operational costs. I find this to be a leading reason why better situated real estate is often overlooked by investors who are chasing cash flow. Second only to fixed costs of operation which disproportionately impact the lower cost properties often leased to subsidized tenants (also rarely represented correctly on spreadsheets pre-purchase).


     I would agree with you. My situation is such that I already own the property. I'm not looking for another property at this time. I'm hoping to see if landlords who have been able to screen voucher tenants have had a positive experience. Almost all the horror stories I've heard about are when the landlord assumed they were screened if they have a voucher or whatever their reason was for not doing DD on the tenant.

  • Greg ScottPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · SE Michigan · Member since 2014 · 4k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    1y

    @Brian Bisdorf

    It sounds like you have already decided you want to go the Section 8 route.  In your original post, you asked whether or not Section 8 was a good idea. I pointed you here, where people with decades of experience are telling you there are some significant downsides.

    In your other post, you said you were a flipper and this would be your first LTR.  Many of the people on this thread specialize in LTRs.  What sort of due diligence do you think you will be able to conduct on the prospective tenant that these investors have not done?

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