Constructive Criticism Will Help You as a New Investor More Than Blind Faith

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Constructive Criticism Will Help You as a New Investor More Than Blind Faith

Jonathan GreeneBusiness Member
Real Estate Consultant · Madison, NJ · Member since 2016 · 6k+ posts · 7k+ votes

I get involved in A LOT of side discussions (when a thread goes off the rails and away from the original post) on BiggerPockets. Whenever it happens, it happens because an investor either doesn't like the delivery of my message or doesn't like that I didn't give them an answer to a very vague question. I ask many questions back to help them, but they see this as an affront because it's not what they asked for.

The greatest coaches in the world will tell you to arrive prepared, do your research, and ask good questions to get the best answers. I can't imagine someone arguing with this (but I'm sure there will be someone). Just because you are new to investing, new to the site, or new to a meetup doesn't mean you shouldn't show up prepared. The more prepared you are, the better responses you will get. The less prepared you are, the more you will get pitched. You become a mark.

Constructive criticism is your friend. No one who has grown a business from small to big will tell you that they got there by surrounding themselves with only people who tell them what they want to hear and deliver it in a warm handbasket. Different deliveries, different opinions, different questions, different mindsets - this is how you learn.

In the real estate investing world (the real one, not the forums), many people who will be the nicest to you will sell you something shortly thereafter. When you only want someone to sell you a dream, everyone will sell you that dream. When someone criticizes your plan but has nothing to sell you, how could they not be acting in your best interests? Why would someone with years of experience hop onto an online forum just to mess with you? What would they have to gain from that? Think bigger.

Blind faith will get you nowhere in real estate investing. Everyone telling you that your plan is excellent will not help you. You want the people who find the cracks because that is how you get better. That is how you learn. Wherever you are in your investing journey, stop taking everything personally that doesn't fit what you want to hear. You will get places much quicker by having constructive dialogues with those who challenge you, not those who appease you.

What do you think?

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Travis TimmonsPro Member
Rental Property Investor · Ellsworth, ME · Member since 2021 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
1y

What is the point of all these holier than thou posts that you are creating? Nobody cares what you  know until they know that you care. You're being off putting and helping no one. 

It reminds me of a story when I used to work at a church. At a new member class, a random lady said that she had the gift of prophecy. I indulged while trying to make my way out of that conversation. I asked her, "How do you typically use this gift?" 

Her answer - "Mostly for correcting."

How are you using your real estate acumen on BP forums?...Mostly for correcting that is just an echo chamber of old, rich guys talking about how terrible new investors are. Either do the blocking and tackling of one on one help here or stop with the "I'm so smart, you should be better" nonsense. 

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  • Nathan GesnerBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @Jonathan Greene:

    The difference is the low bar of entry. The easier it is for someone to engage, the more likely they are not serious about the endeavor.

    Have you ever visited Biggerpockets facebook page? I was asked to moderate when they first started it and I gave up after a week. People were already on Facebook, so it was easy for them to join the group and start engaging, even if they had no knowledge or experience in real estate investing. It's literally a cesspool. People have to purposefully navigate to the BP website before they can engage, so it's a slightly higher bar. And when they pay a coach $10,000 to teach them, then they are pretty serious about learning and will accept the advice readily.

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  • Jonathan GreeneBusiness Member
    OP
    Real Estate Consultant · Madison, NJ · Member since 2016 · 6k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @Nathan Gesner:
    Quote from @Jonathan Greene:

    The difference is the low bar of entry. The easier it is for someone to engage, the more likely they are not serious about the endeavor.

    Have you ever visited Biggerpockets facebook page? I was asked to moderate when they first started it and I gave up after a week. People were already on Facebook, so it was easy for them to join the group and start engaging, even if they had no knowledge or experience in real estate investing. It's literally a cesspool. People have to purposefully navigate to the BP website before they can engage, so it's a slightly higher bar. And when they pay a coach $10,000 to teach them, then they are pretty serious about learning and will accept the advice readily.


    That's a great point. In my opinion, they should make everyone have a profile pic and have it verified, but that's kind of too big of an ask. It's not like this is Ashley Madison, I don't know why people don't put their faces on here so they can connect better.

    And copy on the Facebook page. I went on once and it was like the forums on speed and crank, but also swimming in a nuclear swamp. I left after five minutes, haven't been back in years.

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  • Nathan GesnerBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @Jonathan Greene:

    It's hurting society. Twitter has always been a cesspool because users can post anything they want without repercussions. A 32-year-old would never insult a politician in person, but they have no problem getting nasty from the safety of mom's basement.

    If profiles were verified and public, then we would clean things up a bit.
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  • Jonathan GreeneBusiness Member
    OP
    Real Estate Consultant · Madison, NJ · Member since 2016 · 6k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @Nathan Gesner:
    Quote from @Jonathan Greene:

    It's hurting society. Twitter has always been a cesspool because users can post anything they want without repercussions. A 32-year-old would never insult a politician in person, but they have no problem getting nasty from the safety of mom's basement.

    If profiles were verified and public, then we would clean things up a bit.

    Yup. I have been off Twitter for two years now and don't use Facebook at all. You made a great point that I find carries over here to the forums. Everyone is a big person with no photo or identifying information, but when I tell them let's hop on a recorded Zoom to finish this argument and then I will post it back in the forum here, only one person has ever accepted. They are scurred. That's why the hide behind anonymous profiles. If everything had to be verified online, things would be so much more civil.

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  • Travis TimmonsPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Ellsworth, ME · Member since 2021 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    1y

    What is the point of all these holier than thou posts that you are creating? Nobody cares what you  know until they know that you care. You're being off putting and helping no one. 

    It reminds me of a story when I used to work at a church. At a new member class, a random lady said that she had the gift of prophecy. I indulged while trying to make my way out of that conversation. I asked her, "How do you typically use this gift?" 

    Her answer - "Mostly for correcting."

    How are you using your real estate acumen on BP forums?...Mostly for correcting that is just an echo chamber of old, rich guys talking about how terrible new investors are. Either do the blocking and tackling of one on one help here or stop with the "I'm so smart, you should be better" nonsense. 

    13Reply
  • V.G JasonPro Member
    Investor · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @Travis Timmons:

    What is the point of all these holier than thou posts that you are creating? Nobody cares what you  know until they know that you care. You're being off putting and helping no one. 

    It reminds me of a story when I used to work at a church. At a new member class, a random lady said that she had the gift of prophecy. I indulged while trying to make my way out of that conversation. I asked her, "How do you typically use this gift?" 

    Her answer - "Mostly for correcting."

    How are you using your real estate acumen on BP forums?...Mostly for correcting that is just an echo chamber of old, rich guys talking about how terrible new investors are. Either do the blocking and tackling of one on one help here or stop with the "I'm so smart, you should be better" nonsense. 


     You are kind of doing it too, with that post. We're all guilty of it, but I do agree the OP doing it is a sham.

    No one is avoiding your zooms cause we're scared, we're avoiding them cause we don't respect you. 

    To the point of the post, new members like Scott Leech, Marjoriey, etc., and some others I'm forgetting are absolutely fair in getting criticism. The opening questions are basic, they aren't even confrontational yet they take it personal. How then would would they not get criticism?

    I will go off my experience, because that's all I can deeply relate to. Criticism is about your view, not about you. And that's perfectly okay, if someone doesn't contest your views that's going to hurt you in the long(er) run. You need that resistance.

    With that said, we aren't offering resistance as their form. We are literally asking candid questions, and they view that as criticism. Criticism comes after that, and it appears as resistance. If you can't get past that, you won't go anywhere. It's a harsh reality. 

    1Reply
  • Kevin S.
    Member since 2024 · 400 posts · 240 votes
    1y

    @V.G Jason

    Your response is right on the money except the first sentence for which I beg to differ.  Travis was just calling out the OP.  Posting about it vs calling out the post are not the same, IMO.  I respect the fact that you at least admit you are guilty of it but some people are just repeat offender(of the same subject).  Having said that, the original author of the post do contribute a lot to answers on BP and I wouldn't take that away from him. 

    3Reply
  • Scott MeechPro Member
    Investor · Oswego, IL · Member since 2024 · 21 posts · 19 votes
    1y
    Quote from @V.G Jason:
    Quote from @Travis Timmons:

    What is the point of all these holier than thou posts that you are creating? Nobody cares what you  know until they know that you care. You're being off putting and helping no one. 

    It reminds me of a story when I used to work at a church. At a new member class, a random lady said that she had the gift of prophecy. I indulged while trying to make my way out of that conversation. I asked her, "How do you typically use this gift?" 

    Her answer - "Mostly for correcting."

    How are you using your real estate acumen on BP forums?...Mostly for correcting that is just an echo chamber of old, rich guys talking about how terrible new investors are. Either do the blocking and tackling of one on one help here or stop with the "I'm so smart, you should be better" nonsense. 


     You are kind of doing it too, with that post. We're all guilty of it, but I do agree the OP doing it is a sham.

    No one is avoiding your zooms cause we're scared, we're avoiding them cause we don't respect you. 

    To the point of the post, new members like Scott Leech, Marjoriey, etc., and some others I'm forgetting are absolutely fair in getting criticism. The opening questions are basic, they aren't even confrontational yet they take it personal. How then would would they not get criticism?

    I will go off my experience, because that's all I can deeply relate to. Criticism is about your view, not about you. And that's perfectly okay, if someone doesn't contest your views that's going to hurt you in the long(er) run. You need that resistance.

    With that said, we aren't offering resistance as their form. We are literally asking candid questions, and they view that as criticism. Criticism comes after that, and it appears as resistance. If you can't get past that, you won't go anywhere. It's a harsh reality. 

    Please note. My name is Scott Meech. Thanks!  
    2Reply
  • Nathan GesnerBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
    1y

    OK, I clearly engaged in something I am not familiar with.

    I'll let you fellas duke this one out while I stand in the corner and scroll TikTok.

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  • Scott TrenchPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Denver, CO · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    1y

    @Jonathan Greene At risk of getting sucked in here, I did go ahead and click on @Scott Meech's post here: https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/925/topics/1217313-dete...

    I often agree with what you have to say, but in this case, I have  to disagree. 

    I feel that the BP forums are literally for the kind of question Scott asked. Scott is new to MTR, and did the homework of setting up his profile, and even buying a pro membership, and researching a property to ask for opinions about in response. 

    Think about how many people come on and post about how they have $300K+ and no plan! I worry that these posts risk them being targeted by bad actors in the space. 

    Scott is nowhere close to "bad" in the context of what a lot of newer members post to the community.

    I can't think of a better use for the forums than in allowing members like Scott to test ideas like that MTR and get feedback from the community. I am sure that Scott is aware that he should do lots of research before buying an MTR, but if a part of that research can't be posting a potential deal to the forums and getting community input/guidance on how to think about it, what is the BP forum even for?

    Your responses are usually great, but in this case it came across to me like you were telling him to do more homework and to come back later when he had a better question. 

    We don't want Scott to go away! We want him to come back, and to engage with the community, learn how to ask the right questions, buy investment property that makes him rich, and for him to have such an awesome experience and make so much money in real estate over the next few years that he stays on BiggerPockets for 10-20 more years answering questions for other newbies, learning from the example of @miguel del mazo - who provided an incredible and useful response. 

    We want more people like Scott to post to the forum. 

    I think that there's a spin to your post that needs to incorporate the idea of being "welcoming" and "encouraging" of every member to pursue the long-term benefits of real estate responsibly, even as we of course do not want to encourage irresponsible real estate investing decisions.

    Curious to hear other's thoughts here. 

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  • Bonnie LowPro Member
    Lender · Asheville, NC · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @Scott Trench:

    @Jonathan Greene At risk of getting sucked in here, I did go ahead and click on @Scott Meech

    Couldn't agree with you more! I hate to see  new members being shot down when they dip their toes in the water. If you feel their questions are a waste of time then scroll on....and don't waste your own time answering. We all had to start somewhere.

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  • Jonathan GreeneBusiness Member
    OP
    Real Estate Consultant · Madison, NJ · Member since 2016 · 6k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @Scott Trench:

    @Jonathan Greene At risk of getting sucked in here, I did go ahead and click on @Scott Meech's post here: https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/925/topics/1217313-dete...

    I often agree with what you have to say, but in this case, I have  to disagree. 

    I feel that the BP forums are literally for the kind of question Scott asked. Scott is new to MTR, and did the homework of setting up his profile, and even buying a pro membership, and researching a property to ask for opinions about in response. 

    Think about how many people come on and post about how they have $300K+ and no plan! I worry that these posts risk them being targeted by bad actors in the space. 

    Scott is nowhere close to "bad" in the context of what a lot of newer members post to the community.

    I can't think of a better use for the forums than in allowing members like Scott to test ideas like that MTR and get feedback from the community. I am sure that Scott is aware that he should do lots of research before buying an MTR, but if a part of that research can't be posting a potential deal to the forums and getting community input/guidance on how to think about it, what is the BP forum even for?

    Your responses are usually great, but in this case it came across to me like you were telling him to do more homework and to come back later when he had a better question. 

    We don't want Scott to go away! We want him to come back, and to engage with the community, learn how to ask the right questions, buy investment property that makes him rich, and for him to have such an awesome experience and make so much money in real estate over the next few years that he stays on BiggerPockets for 10-20 more years answering questions for other newbies, learning from the example of @miguel del mazo - who provided an incredible and useful response. 

    We want more people like Scott to post to the forum. 

    I think that there's a spin to your post that needs to incorporate the idea of being "welcoming" and "encouraging" of every member to pursue the long-term benefits of real estate responsibly, even as we of course do not want to encourage irresponsible real estate investing decisions.

    Curious to hear other's thoughts here. 


    Those are all fair points, especially coming from you. I don't disagree with anything you said, but I also don't go back and read anything even remotely offensive in what I wrote. People intuit tone based on their expectations. He was expecting everyone to answer and some did, but I gave him three questions to get even better answers. It was his response to my response that created more issues. You can't create tone from words on a screen.

    Here is a test I always use for people. If you read what I wrote in my first response and heard it as two people talking to each other, smiling or just hanging out, not a single person in the world would even blink. It's a regular response to help someone. I have read it several times to make sure and I see nothing. Maybe it's because I don't want someone to give me a glorious welcome anywhere because that's not why I go places. If I want good answers, I respect other people's time and I ask better questions with more detail and don't make people go do their own research on my problem unless I laid out more of a story. It's lazy how it was presented.

    I know you read down further, but the point was that every single business coach that has ever existed would have given the advice that I gave without saying the exact same words. If you want better answers, you ask better questions. I gave him three questions to get better answers, but he popped off right away because of how he read it, not because of the words.

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  • Jonathan GreeneBusiness Member
    OP
    Real Estate Consultant · Madison, NJ · Member since 2016 · 6k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @Bonnie Low:
    Quote from @Scott Trench:

    @Jonathan Greene At risk of getting sucked in here, I did go ahead and click on @Scott Meech

    Couldn't agree with you more! I hate to see  new members being shot down when they dip their toes in the water. If you feel their questions are a waste of time then scroll on....and don't waste your own time answering. We all had to start somewhere.


    Again, that's not at all what happened. Read what I wrote back to Scott Trench. You are reading it in the way you want it to be. The words don't say what you are saying they say. It's helpful to a fault. Just because I didn't warm it up or want to go do my own research to help someone when there was one long sentence and a link does not make me someone who does not welcome new people. I think about 10,000 people on BiggerPockets would disagree with that (and about 20 would agree).

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  • Jonathan GreeneBusiness Member
    OP
    Real Estate Consultant · Madison, NJ · Member since 2016 · 6k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @Travis Timmons:

    What is the point of all these holier than thou posts that you are creating? Nobody cares what you  know until they know that you care. You're being off putting and helping no one. 

    It reminds me of a story when I used to work at a church. At a new member class, a random lady said that she had the gift of prophecy. I indulged while trying to make my way out of that conversation. I asked her, "How do you typically use this gift?" 

    Her answer - "Mostly for correcting."

    How are you using your real estate acumen on BP forums?...Mostly for correcting that is just an echo chamber of old, rich guys talking about how terrible new investors are. Either do the blocking and tackling of one on one help here or stop with the "I'm so smart, you should be better" nonsense. 


    See, what's funny with this is that you are doing what you really want me not to do. I didn't think his post was great so I tried to help him. Then I made my own post which carries some pretty good advice, whether or not you agree with me making it or not. So, you came in to follow me to this thread to do what you did in the other thread. It doesn't bother me, but it seems wildly hypocritical.

    I don't know who you are protecting. Scott Meech seems like he can defend himself. Everyone is an adult. Feedback on my posts doesn't bother me. I think it's all helpful, but your response to my post is way beyond how you described my post. Not sure how you don't see that.

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  • Jonathan GreeneBusiness Member
    OP
    Real Estate Consultant · Madison, NJ · Member since 2016 · 6k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @V.G Jason:
    Quote from @Travis Timmons:

    What is the point of all these holier than thou posts that you are creating? Nobody cares what you  know until they know that you care. You're being off putting and helping no one. 

    It reminds me of a story when I used to work at a church. At a new member class, a random lady said that she had the gift of prophecy. I indulged while trying to make my way out of that conversation. I asked her, "How do you typically use this gift?" 

    Her answer - "Mostly for correcting."

    How are you using your real estate acumen on BP forums?...Mostly for correcting that is just an echo chamber of old, rich guys talking about how terrible new investors are. Either do the blocking and tackling of one on one help here or stop with the "I'm so smart, you should be better" nonsense. 


     You are kind of doing it too, with that post. We're all guilty of it, but I do agree the OP doing it is a sham.

    No one is avoiding your zooms cause we're scared, we're avoiding them cause we don't respect you. 

    To the point of the post, new members like Scott Leech, Marjoriey, etc., and some others I'm forgetting are absolutely fair in getting criticism. The opening questions are basic, they aren't even confrontational yet they take it personal. How then would would they not get criticism?

    I will go off my experience, because that's all I can deeply relate to. Criticism is about your view, not about you. And that's perfectly okay, if someone doesn't contest your views that's going to hurt you in the long(er) run. You need that resistance.

    With that said, we aren't offering resistance as their form. We are literally asking candid questions, and they view that as criticism. Criticism comes after that, and it appears as resistance. If you can't get past that, you won't go anywhere. It's a harsh reality. 


    I don't buy the thing about the Zooms, but I understand that you don't respect me and that is totally fine. The true purpose of the Zoom is to actually bridge the gap. Typing on a screen everyone is a big guy, when you get face to face it's never an actual fight. It's easy to be fine. I offer that because I am better face to face because I know people read my words and take them a different way than how I am writing them.

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  • Jonathan GreeneBusiness Member
    OP
    Real Estate Consultant · Madison, NJ · Member since 2016 · 6k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @Kevin S.:

    @V.G Jason

    Your response is right on the money except the first sentence for which I beg to differ.  Travis was just calling out the OP.  Posting about it vs calling out the post are not the same, IMO.  I respect the fact that you at least admit you are guilty of it but some people are just repeat offender(of the same subject).  Having said that, the original author of the post do contribute a lot to answers on BP and I wouldn't take that away from him. 


    Yeah, I acknowledge first thing that if a thread goes off the rails, I am usually involved. But when it happens it is because people get their feelings hurt because of tone or how they view the tone. It's never because I am giving people bad advice or out to make them lose money. I am usually giving (sometimes a little too) straightforward advice so they don't lose money or hire a guru.

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  • Jonathan GreeneBusiness Member
    OP
    Real Estate Consultant · Madison, NJ · Member since 2016 · 6k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @Scott Meech:
    Quote from @V.G Jason:
    Quote from @Travis Timmons:

    What is the point of all these holier than thou posts that you are creating? Nobody cares what you  know until they know that you care. You're being off putting and helping no one. 

    It reminds me of a story when I used to work at a church. At a new member class, a random lady said that she had the gift of prophecy. I indulged while trying to make my way out of that conversation. I asked her, "How do you typically use this gift?" 

    Her answer - "Mostly for correcting."

    How are you using your real estate acumen on BP forums?...Mostly for correcting that is just an echo chamber of old, rich guys talking about how terrible new investors are. Either do the blocking and tackling of one on one help here or stop with the "I'm so smart, you should be better" nonsense. 


     You are kind of doing it too, with that post. We're all guilty of it, but I do agree the OP doing it is a sham.

    No one is avoiding your zooms cause we're scared, we're avoiding them cause we don't respect you. 

    To the point of the post, new members like Scott Leech, Marjoriey, etc., and some others I'm forgetting are absolutely fair in getting criticism. The opening questions are basic, they aren't even confrontational yet they take it personal. How then would would they not get criticism?

    I will go off my experience, because that's all I can deeply relate to. Criticism is about your view, not about you. And that's perfectly okay, if someone doesn't contest your views that's going to hurt you in the long(er) run. You need that resistance.

    With that said, we aren't offering resistance as their form. We are literally asking candid questions, and they view that as criticism. Criticism comes after that, and it appears as resistance. If you can't get past that, you won't go anywhere. It's a harsh reality. 

    Please note. My name is Scott Meech. Thanks!  

    Just a note on the importance of creating a full profile. Now that I can see your face, you seem like a real person to me and honestly, I probably would have written something a little nicer without thinking about it. It's subconscious to me on the internet when it's only a blue head that the person could be fake.

    I think the forums would be much more effective if verification was required just for this reason.

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  • Jonathan GreeneBusiness Member
    OP
    Real Estate Consultant · Madison, NJ · Member since 2016 · 6k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    1y

    And last thing on this. Some may not have liked the forum post (this one), but every post I start (and there have been a lot of them, some with hundreds of pages and some with none) is a portal for a conversation. This is proof of that in practice. Anyone who is open to feedback first will always have a better experience.

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  • Travis TimmonsPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Ellsworth, ME · Member since 2021 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    1y

    @Scott Trench @Jonathan Greene

    The scenario that Scott laid out is my story. I had some success in my career but did not know my back side from 3rd base as it related to real estate. I stumbled upon BP, asked dumb questions, received a lot of great (free) advice and help, and I now own 5 investment properties (2 of which are mid term) along with a current live in flip, continued success in my career and index fund investing, and hit financial independence at 41. Without success in real estate and BP forums/education, I'd still have a job. 

    It changed my frickin' life. That's why I argue with strangers on the internet defending a new investor asking for help. 

    9Reply
  • Jonathan GreeneBusiness Member
    OP
    Real Estate Consultant · Madison, NJ · Member since 2016 · 6k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @Travis Timmons:

    @Scott Trench @Jonathan Greene

    The scenario that Scott laid out is my story. I had some success in my career but did not know my back side from 3rd base as it related to real estate. I stumbled upon BP, asked dumb questions, received a lot of great (free) advice and help, and I now own 5 investment properties (2 of which are mid term) along with a current live in flip, continued success in my career and index fund investing, and hit financial independence at 41. Without success in real estate and BP forums/education, I'd still have a job. 

    It changed my frickin' life. That's why I argue with strangers on the internet defending a new investor asking for help. 


    That is a fair point, but wouldn't you tell your old self to ask "less dumb" questions because now you know you were more likely to get better answers? This would then make the process go quicker for you. Again, if you go back and read my first response, that's what I did.

    I do think answering the basic questions can help change someone's life, but I also think challenging them to ask a better question is not a bad thing. That's what coaches do even when people don't know they are being coached or don't want to be.

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  • Scott MeechPro Member
    Investor · Oswego, IL · Member since 2024 · 21 posts · 19 votes
    1y
    Quote from @Jonathan Greene:
    Quote from @Kevin S.:

    @V.G Jason

    Your response is right on the money except the first sentence for which I beg to differ.  Travis was just calling out the OP.  Posting about it vs calling out the post are not the same, IMO.  I respect the fact that you at least admit you are guilty of it but some people are just repeat offender(of the same subject).  Having said that, the original author of the post do contribute a lot to answers on BP and I wouldn't take that away from him. 


    Yeah, I acknowledge first thing that if a thread goes off the rails, I am usually involved. But when it happens it is because people get their feelings hurt because of tone or how they view the tone. It's never because I am giving people bad advice or out to make them lose money. I am usually giving (sometimes a little too) straightforward advice so they don't lose money or hire a guru.

    It’s all good. I would have let it go but my name continues to be connected.

    I stand behind the comment “coming in hot”. It’s unfortunate it went so south. I look forward to reading all of the productive and helpful posts you and others have posted as I believe in becoming the best investor and property owner possible.

    Discussion forums to my understanding should create a sense of belonging among individuals with shared interests, providing a space for collaboration, support, and professional or personal connections.

    I wondered a little bit so I checked out some of your contributions before me and add those as screenshots to the discussion below. Hey, looks pretty clear to me there has been a lot going on before I arrived and I equate this all to forum fatigue for some involved.

    It also makes me wonder why my name was changed in posts regardless of linking to my username spelled correctly. I would like to believe it was inadvertent and not purposeful as an additional negative reference!

    Once again, I look forward to learning and just saying “peace”! I truly do look forward to learning as there has been some fantastic resources, ideas and comments. And yes it all continues to make me very well aware that I won’t be doing any MTR anytime soon.

    0Reply
  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @Jonathan Greene:
    Quote from @Scott Meech:
    Quote from @V.G Jason:
    Quote from @Travis Timmons:

    What is the point of all these holier than thou posts that you are creating? Nobody cares what you  know until they know that you care. You're being off putting and helping no one. 

    It reminds me of a story when I used to work at a church. At a new member class, a random lady said that she had the gift of prophecy. I indulged while trying to make my way out of that conversation. I asked her, "How do you typically use this gift?" 

    Her answer - "Mostly for correcting."

    How are you using your real estate acumen on BP forums?...Mostly for correcting that is just an echo chamber of old, rich guys talking about how terrible new investors are. Either do the blocking and tackling of one on one help here or stop with the "I'm so smart, you should be better" nonsense. 


     You are kind of doing it too, with that post. We're all guilty of it, but I do agree the OP doing it is a sham.

    No one is avoiding your zooms cause we're scared, we're avoiding them cause we don't respect you. 

    To the point of the post, new members like Scott Leech, Marjoriey, etc., and some others I'm forgetting are absolutely fair in getting criticism. The opening questions are basic, they aren't even confrontational yet they take it personal. How then would would they not get criticism?

    I will go off my experience, because that's all I can deeply relate to. Criticism is about your view, not about you. And that's perfectly okay, if someone doesn't contest your views that's going to hurt you in the long(er) run. You need that resistance.

    With that said, we aren't offering resistance as their form. We are literally asking candid questions, and they view that as criticism. Criticism comes after that, and it appears as resistance. If you can't get past that, you won't go anywhere. It's a harsh reality. 

    Please note. My name is Scott Meech. Thanks!  

    Just a note on the importance of creating a full profile. Now that I can see your face, you seem like a real person to me and honestly, I probably would have written something a little nicer without thinking about it. It's subconscious to me on the internet when it's only a blue head that the person could be fake.

    I think the forums would be much more effective if verification was required just for this reason.

    just an FYI Until I could get my wife to show me how to put a picture on BP I did not have one either.. And @Scott Trench staff has helped me hone my page other wise I could not figure out how to load all the info into the profile pages and set mine up.. Not everyone ( like me ) is versed at how to use these systems.. Hell I just learned how to cut and paste about 5 years ago.. So to me new members might need some time to get set up they may need to get help from their kids or spouse to navigate this site.. I mean I would love to share pictures of my deals and developments but I cant figure out howto get them from my phone onto this site so they just live in my phone and all I can do is talk about them.. :)  Personally I dont think the post that we are all talking about was anything but asking for advice.. Also your questions to him probably could have been couched a little better you know bed side manner and all. 

    As for the subject at Hand I have a MTR next to the Summerlin NV hospital its a money maker..  Also I cant figure out how to get a camera etc on my computer to do pod casts  Scott and I were going to do one this summer I flew to Colorado to do it since I could not set it up at home unfortunately Dave Meyers schedule did not jive when I was at BP world headquarters.. So unless I can do a podcast on a simple zoom and one were they send me the zoom invite I cant do podcasts..  the BP podcast I did do only happened because someone I know had a studio  but he has since moved.. :)

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  • Miguel Del MazoPro Member
    Northeast Georgia · Member since 2023 · 140 posts · 170 votes
    1y
    So....as one of the people who responded to your original post, I legitimately don't know if my response was viewed as helpful, hurtful or horse...puckey?

    With that said, I think you've shown a lot of grit in holding your own on the forums. I don't think you've been 100% right, nor have the more vocal detractors been spot on with everything either.

    I advise that you don't give up on MTR as a strategy, if it appeals to you. If you have any questions, you can DM me, and i'll try and answer as I am able, in my limited way.

    3Reply
  • Scott MeechPro Member
    Investor · Oswego, IL · Member since 2024 · 21 posts · 19 votes
    1y
    Quote from @Miguel Del Mazo:
    So....as one of the people who responded to your original post, I legitimately don't know if my response was viewed as helpful, hurtful or horse...puckey?

    With that said, I think you've shown a lot of grit in holding your own on the forums. I don't think you've been 100% right, nor have the more vocal detractors been spot on with everything either.

    I advise that you don't give up on MTR as a strategy, if it appeals to you. If you have any questions, you can DM me, and i'll try and answer as I am able, in my limited way.

    It was a phenomenal answer and extremely helpful! I have read it multiple times.

    Thank you very much!
    2Reply
  • Remington LymanBusiness Member
    Real Estate Agent · Columbus, OH · Member since 2017 · 6k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @Scott Trench:

    @Jonathan Greene At risk of getting sucked in here, I did go ahead and click on @Scott Meech's post here: https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/925/topics/1217313-dete...

    I often agree with what you have to say, but in this case, I have  to disagree. 

    I feel that the BP forums are literally for the kind of question Scott asked. Scott is new to MTR, and did the homework of setting up his profile, and even buying a pro membership, and researching a property to ask for opinions about in response. 

    Think about how many people come on and post about how they have $300K+ and no plan! I worry that these posts risk them being targeted by bad actors in the space. 

    Scott is nowhere close to "bad" in the context of what a lot of newer members post to the community.

    I can't think of a better use for the forums than in allowing members like Scott to test ideas like that MTR and get feedback from the community. I am sure that Scott is aware that he should do lots of research before buying an MTR, but if a part of that research can't be posting a potential deal to the forums and getting community input/guidance on how to think about it, what is the BP forum even for?

    Your responses are usually great, but in this case it came across to me like you were telling him to do more homework and to come back later when he had a better question. 

    We don't want Scott to go away! We want him to come back, and to engage with the community, learn how to ask the right questions, buy investment property that makes him rich, and for him to have such an awesome experience and make so much money in real estate over the next few years that he stays on BiggerPockets for 10-20 more years answering questions for other newbies, learning from the example of @miguel del mazo - who provided an incredible and useful response. 

    We want more people like Scott to post to the forum. 

    I think that there's a spin to your post that needs to incorporate the idea of being "welcoming" and "encouraging" of every member to pursue the long-term benefits of real estate responsibly, even as we of course do not want to encourage irresponsible real estate investing decisions.

    Curious to hear other's thoughts here. 

    I agree with you, @Scott Trench. I believe that @Jonathan Greene has a lot of valuable experience to share with both newcomers and seasoned investors, but he can sometimes come across as off-putting. He has provided me with helpful constructive criticism on how I can better coach my agents in their forum posts. However, I think he could improve the way he expresses his opinions publicly on the forums regarding these agents. While the perspectives he and others share are valid, they can sometimes turn into trash-talking banter, which detracts from the core values of BiggerPockets.

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