Is BUYING in a GOOD SCHOOL DISTRICT even that important anymore?

Rental Property Investor · San Anselmo · Member since 2015 · 659 posts · 600 votes

@Shiloh Lundahl Yes. When we experience the next downturn, the get gentrified inner cities will flock back to stabilized suburbs with quality schools... in addition, there will always be a demand for families in good public school districts

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Alyssa Dyer

Rental Property Investor · Oklahoma City, OK · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 694 votes

7y

@Shiloh Lundahl Not in OKC! Here you're going to get the best rates of return in C class, and won't even get close to good schools until you're in A class where rates of return aren't as attractive. Most people don't complain about a rental that was only 60k that makes you 200/month consistently!

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Nathan Paul Konyndyk

Property Manager · Denver, CO · Member since 2018 · 14 posts · 5 votes

7y

@Shiloh Lundahl

As an educator and Real Estate dabbler I had to chime in. As is the case with much in the RE game it depends. For example, in Denver where I reside, school district doesn't really matter because there is a long history of school choice and "other options".

But even here it matters some. However, where I grew up in West Michigan there were not other options. Places with few other options it matters a ton. Check state and local laws. Arizona doesn't fund schools and supports privatization efforts ie doesn't matter as much. Maybe online has broadened some things but for a 12 year old kid to say that they will do all their schooling online and at home...come on. This is a HUGE issue in our country, politically, socially, economically. It's changed some 2 decades into the 21st. But not much.

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Michael Bettencourt

Investor · Highland Park, IL · Member since 2015 · 68 posts · 18 votes

7y

@Shiloh Lundahl I use school district as an indicator of the class of the area. I often invest in areas I’m not extremely familiar with and schools seem so be a quick indicator of the type of Nieghbor. For the most part Districts are good because of the families that live there, which attract more like minded people who prioritize education, whom are usually the type of people you want to live next to.

2 Reply

Alan Grobmeier

Rental Property Investor · Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2013 · 919 posts · 911 votes

7y

@Shiloh Lundahl, you should go buy some properties where the schools are bad & give us a report in 10 years. ;-)

It matters a LOT. I have a property in Cali where tenants are ‘allowed’ to attend the local charter school without going to the waitlist. I’m still not sure what this scenario is ‘worth’, but I’m doing ‘ok’. ;-)

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Sen A.

Rental Property Investor · Union City, NJ · Member since 2018 · 40 posts · 66 votes

7y

@Shiloh Lundahl

Don't allow your personal and political issues about the school system to cloud your investment decision-making. You may be able to take your kids out of public school, but the vast majority of your tenants don't have this opportunity.

2 Reply

Bob Prisco

Specialist · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 666 votes

7y

@Shiloh Lundahl no,, its all about price,,,,,,,

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Otis Gathing

Investor · Detroit, MI · Member since 2019 · 38 posts · 7 votes

7y

Absolutely, good school districts help boost property values.

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Matt R.

Sherman Oaks, CA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes

7y

Originally posted by @Nathan Paul Konyndyk:

@Shiloh Lundahl

As an educator and Real Estate dabbler I had to chime in. As is the case with much in the RE game it depends. For example, in Denver where I reside, school district doesn't really matter because there is a long history of school choice and "other options".

But even here it matters some. However, where I grew up in West Michigan there were not other options. Places with few other options it matters a ton. Check state and local laws. Arizona doesn't fund schools and supports privatization efforts ie doesn't matter as much. Maybe online has broadened some things but for a 12 year old kid to say that they will do all their schooling online and at home...come on. This is a HUGE issue in our country, politically, socially, economically. It's changed some 2 decades into the 21st. But not much.

I think home schooling is a growing niche. They can group up and meet together for PE days I think now and do other social activities like old schools. The test scores I think are substantially higher on average and home schoolers frequently win in competition far more than their represented capita. The individual learning pace is likely superior to 30 kids being all taught at basically the same pace. There are studies that show homeschoolers also outperform their regular school peers in college and in professional careers as well. If both parents have degrees, homeschool kids average in the 90th percentile for example. For some it is a better fit even for a 12 year old, yes.

1 Reply

Philip Johnson

Rental Property Investor · Hartford. CT · Member since 2018 · 178 posts · 54 votes

7y

Originally posted by @Shiloh Lundahl:

The reason for this post is because I often read other investors post about looking for a property in an area where they have good schools. We did that. We bought a home in Burbank, California, a very expensive suburb of LA, because the school system was rated really high compared to the other schools in nearby cities. But after a year of my wife checking our kids out of school early to take them to acting auditions, she got fed up with the annoyance of the school system (not to mention the socialistic and extreme liberal political climate of the schools in LA). So she pulled them out of school and started to homeschool them. So it really didn’t matter as much whether we lived by a good school or not at that point and we could have purchased a cheaper property that was bigger and nicer for a lot less by going just a little farther outside of Burbank.

I am starting to see a lot of alternative schooling options now-a-days, especially in Arizona where I also live and invest. Here are some alternative schooling options. You can:

Go to your neighborhood school
Get an exception to go to another school outside of your area (this happens all the time by the way)
Go to a charter school
Go to a Montessori school
Go to a private school
Go to an academy
Do online school
Do home school
Do a mix of online and home school
Do a co-op school

And I’m sure there are others I’m not familiar with. So if in your listing for the property you are renting or selling you state the excellent alternative schools in the area, does it really matter which school district you buy in if the boundaries are a lot less ridged than they used to be?

What are your thoughts?

It matters less in areas of high demand and low supply like California. Most Schools are terrible if you look at school ratings but it's because of the high amount of second language students and kids that don't care. Look also at Google and Yelp ratings if you are concerned. If they have an AP program even better the schools rating doesn't matter if you have a smart kid.Anyone who puts in the extra effort can Excel. My answer is no, school districts do not matter.

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Nathan Paul Konyndyk

Property Manager · Denver, CO · Member since 2018 · 14 posts · 5 votes

7y

@Matt R.

Love it. Unschooling. Home Schooling. Self directed education. Great. The World Wide Web is just getting started when it comes to this. The 12 year old comment comes from a place of concern for a focus on test score and "grades" instead of social emotional, soft skills, communication and community. I have no doubts about your metrics. I just don't think they matter that much.

2 Reply

Philip Johnson

Rental Property Investor · Hartford. CT · Member since 2018 · 178 posts · 54 votes

7y

Originally posted by @Matt R.:

Originally posted by @Nathan Paul Konyndyk:

@Shiloh Lundahl

As an educator and Real Estate dabbler I had to chime in. As is the case with much in the RE game it depends. For example, in Denver where I reside, school district doesn't really matter because there is a long history of school choice and "other options".

But even here it matters some. However, where I grew up in West Michigan there were not other options. Places with few other options it matters a ton. Check state and local laws. Arizona doesn't fund schools and supports privatization efforts ie doesn't matter as much. Maybe online has broadened some things but for a 12 year old kid to say that they will do all their schooling online and at home...come on. This is a HUGE issue in our country, politically, socially, economically. It's changed some 2 decades into the 21st. But not much.

I think home schooling is a growing niche. They can group up and meet together for PE days I think now and do other social activities like old schools. The test scores I think are substantially higher on average and home schoolers frequently win in competition far more than their represented capita. The individual learning pace is likely superior to 30 kids being all taught at basically the same pace. There are studies that show homeschoolers also outperform their regular school peers in college and in professional careers as well. If both parents have degrees, homeschool kids average in the 90th percentile for example. For some it is a better fit even for a 12 year old, yes.

I think it's not just the parents investment in the kids time. But having a lot less peer pressure for the kids allows the child to prioritize things other than socializing. Between grade 4 and 12 most of my bad decisions including very bad things were from other kids in an attempt to gain favor. This didn't distract from my grades at the time but I can tell you im paying for the side effects of that culture throughout my life. Luckily I came to some realizations very early in life and I'm fine now. But I think with homeschooling I would have been better off.

1 Reply

Shiloh LundahlPro Member

OP

Rental Property Investor · Gilbert, AZ · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes

7y

This is what I love about BiggerPockets. I can post a question and get several different answers and hear several different points of view on the same topic.

Several people replied that the school district definitely does matter when it comes to finding a good property to invest in real estate. Fewer said that it does not matter. Both gave their reasons why and after reading through everyone's posts, and considering my investment strategies, and my market, it makes sense why school districts have not mattered to me for the way that I invest.

I think that if I were to want to invest in a property for the long term, I would probably get to the point where I see that the school system does matter for reasons that were well described by @Donald SaintVal, @Matt Nusbaum, @Frank Wong and @Jay Hinrichs. I think buying in an area that would attract a better quality tenant who want to be there for a long time and would likely take care of the property would likely reduce some of the maintenance costs, turn over costs, and increase the probability for appreciation. It sounds like a good long term play.

I appreciate the perspective given by @Joe Villeneuve, @John Condlin, @Alyssa Dyer, and @Bob Prisco that takes into consideration the investment strategy being used.

My personal investment strategy is to get lower cost properties in B- to C class areas, that I then market to people who really want to buy a house right now but do not have their credit in a good enough place to get a loan right now. So I market the property as a lease option where, for a fee, a tenant/buyer can lock in a price right now that they can purchase the property for within the option timeframe.

The houses that I own are below the average cost in the market where there is a high demand and would appeal to the upper lower class or the lower middle class. I would say that the type of person who is really interested in our properties are more interested in owning their own home someday over what the rating of the school is in the area.

Again, in Arizona there are a lot of school options so I think it would be easier for a potential tenant/buyers to get into one of our lease option properties and drive their child to a free charter school a few miles away than it would be to with and save up the down payment to eventually move into their preferred neighborhood they want to live in.

So after reading all of the posts I think the answer for whether buying in a good school district is important or not depends on the investment strategy and it isn't a absolute "yes" or "no."

By the way @Alan Grobmeier, even though many of my properties are not in good school districts, my plan is to cash out of them in 2022 and 1031 the profits into other deals so unfortunately I will not be able to give you that 10-year update. Our strategy is simple, we collect properties where we have little of our own money left into the deal that we can make 60k profit on over a 3-5 year period of time. Right now we have close to 40 of these and the strategy seems to be working well so we are doing 'ok' too.

480-206-1209 Podcast Guest on Show #287

1 Reply

Bob Prisco

Specialist · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 666 votes

7y

@Otis Gathing you make your money on the purchase,

GOOD LUCK

0 Reply

Matt R.

Sherman Oaks, CA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes

7y

Originally posted by @Nathan Paul Konyndyk:

@Matt R.

Love it. Unschooling. Home Schooling. Self directed education. Great. The World Wide Web is just getting started when it comes to this. The 12 year old comment comes from a place of concern for a focus on test score and "grades" instead of social emotional, soft skills, communication and community. I have no doubts about your metrics. I just don't think they matter that much.

It may turn out that the "socializing" a public school offers is highly overated. And homeschoolers might even get a more productive socializing education or at least the studies are indicating there is no social disadvantage apparently. And yes in the day where you can type any question into a computer and get back university level answers changes everything possible, agreed.

0 Reply

Alyssa Dyer

Rental Property Investor · Oklahoma City, OK · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 694 votes

7y

@Philip Johnson I agree that in any school if you want to excel you can. It matters more when a child more moldable that their foundation is built well. So, better schools at a lower level might have more impact on the long term success of a child. Regardless, I agree. In OKC we see 5% vacancy pretty consistently regardless of school district. Honestly in the very best school districts here there are many more rentals unleased because investors bought too much and it's saturated now!

1 Reply

Matt R.

Sherman Oaks, CA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes

7y

Originally posted by @Philip Johnson:

Originally posted by @Matt R.:

Originally posted by @Nathan Paul Konyndyk:

@Shiloh Lundahl

As an educator and Real Estate dabbler I had to chime in. As is the case with much in the RE game it depends. For example, in Denver where I reside, school district doesn't really matter because there is a long history of school choice and "other options".

But even here it matters some. However, where I grew up in West Michigan there were not other options. Places with few other options it matters a ton. Check state and local laws. Arizona doesn't fund schools and supports privatization efforts ie doesn't matter as much. Maybe online has broadened some things but for a 12 year old kid to say that they will do all their schooling online and at home...come on. This is a HUGE issue in our country, politically, socially, economically. It's changed some 2 decades into the 21st. But not much.

I think home schooling is a growing niche. They can group up and meet together for PE days I think now and do other social activities like old schools. The test scores I think are substantially higher on average and home schoolers frequently win in competition far more than their represented capita. The individual learning pace is likely superior to 30 kids being all taught at basically the same pace. There are studies that show homeschoolers also outperform their regular school peers in college and in professional careers as well. If both parents have degrees, homeschool kids average in the 90th percentile for example. For some it is a better fit even for a 12 year old, yes.

I think it's not just the parents investment in the kids time. But having a lot less peer pressure for the kids allows the child to prioritize things other than socializing. Between grade 4 and 12 most of my bad decisions including very bad things were from other kids in an attempt to gain favor. This didn't distract from my grades at the time but I can tell you im paying for the side effects of that culture throughout my life. Luckily I came to some realizations very early in life and I'm fine now. But I think with homeschooling I would have been better off.

So true. Think about chucking your kid into the jungle with 30 other animals and one non related person is going to supervise social activity. That's a gamble some parents are not willing to take these days if they can afford not to. What is called socializing sometimes is really just unsupervised kids smoking weed. And then some wonder why or make excuses when homeschoolers outperform peers on every level measurable including college and post education careers.

2 Reply

Philip Johnson

Rental Property Investor · Hartford. CT · Member since 2018 · 178 posts · 54 votes

7y

Originally posted by @Matt R.:

Originally posted by @Philip Johnson:

Originally posted by @Matt R.:

Originally posted by @Nathan Paul Konyndyk:

@Shiloh Lundahl

As an educator and Real Estate dabbler I had to chime in. As is the case with much in the RE game it depends. For example, in Denver where I reside, school district doesn't really matter because there is a long history of school choice and "other options".

But even here it matters some. However, where I grew up in West Michigan there were not other options. Places with few other options it matters a ton. Check state and local laws. Arizona doesn't fund schools and supports privatization efforts ie doesn't matter as much. Maybe online has broadened some things but for a 12 year old kid to say that they will do all their schooling online and at home...come on. This is a HUGE issue in our country, politically, socially, economically. It's changed some 2 decades into the 21st. But not much.

I think home schooling is a growing niche. They can group up and meet together for PE days I think now and do other social activities like old schools. The test scores I think are substantially higher on average and home schoolers frequently win in competition far more than their represented capita. The individual learning pace is likely superior to 30 kids being all taught at basically the same pace. There are studies that show homeschoolers also outperform their regular school peers in college and in professional careers as well. If both parents have degrees, homeschool kids average in the 90th percentile for example. For some it is a better fit even for a 12 year old, yes.

I think it's not just the parents investment in the kids time. But having a lot less peer pressure for the kids allows the child to prioritize things other than socializing. Between grade 4 and 12 most of my bad decisions including very bad things were from other kids in an attempt to gain favor. This didn't distract from my grades at the time but I can tell you im paying for the side effects of that culture throughout my life. Luckily I came to some realizations very early in life and I'm fine now. But I think with homeschooling I would have been better off.

So true. Think about chucking your kid into the jungle with 30 other animals and one non related person is going to supervise social activity. That's a gamble some parents are not willing to take these days if they can afford not to. What is called socializing sometimes is really just unsupervised kids smoking weed. And then some wonder why or make excuses when homeschoolers outperform peers on every level measurable including college and post education careers.

Wow I've considered homeschooling but now I'm sold. Childless atm but I'll try to figure it out later ! I'd definitely want a nanny to cover some of the day so gotta wait another 5 years until I can afford my Tesla and kids for the backseat.

0 Reply

Matt R.

Sherman Oaks, CA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes

7y

Originally posted by @Philip Johnson:

Originally posted by @Matt R.:

Originally posted by @Philip Johnson:

Originally posted by @Matt R.:

Originally posted by @Nathan Paul Konyndyk:

@Shiloh Lundahl

As an educator and Real Estate dabbler I had to chime in. As is the case with much in the RE game it depends. For example, in Denver where I reside, school district doesn't really matter because there is a long history of school choice and "other options".

But even here it matters some. However, where I grew up in West Michigan there were not other options. Places with few other options it matters a ton. Check state and local laws. Arizona doesn't fund schools and supports privatization efforts ie doesn't matter as much. Maybe online has broadened some things but for a 12 year old kid to say that they will do all their schooling online and at home...come on. This is a HUGE issue in our country, politically, socially, economically. It's changed some 2 decades into the 21st. But not much.

I think home schooling is a growing niche. They can group up and meet together for PE days I think now and do other social activities like old schools. The test scores I think are substantially higher on average and home schoolers frequently win in competition far more than their represented capita. The individual learning pace is likely superior to 30 kids being all taught at basically the same pace. There are studies that show homeschoolers also outperform their regular school peers in college and in professional careers as well. If both parents have degrees, homeschool kids average in the 90th percentile for example. For some it is a better fit even for a 12 year old, yes.

I think it's not just the parents investment in the kids time. But having a lot less peer pressure for the kids allows the child to prioritize things other than socializing. Between grade 4 and 12 most of my bad decisions including very bad things were from other kids in an attempt to gain favor. This didn't distract from my grades at the time but I can tell you im paying for the side effects of that culture throughout my life. Luckily I came to some realizations very early in life and I'm fine now. But I think with homeschooling I would have been better off.

So true. Think about chucking your kid into the jungle with 30 other animals and one non related person is going to supervise social activity. That's a gamble some parents are not willing to take these days if they can afford not to. What is called socializing sometimes is really just unsupervised kids smoking weed. And then some wonder why or make excuses when homeschoolers outperform peers on every level measurable including college and post education careers.

Wow I've considered homeschooling but now I'm sold. Childless atm but I'll try to figure it out later ! I'd definitely want a nanny to cover some of the day so gotta wait another 5 years until I can afford my Tesla and kids for the backseat.

I think some parents are not the actual teachers and actually bring in outside professional credentialed educators for certain subjects, music, math etc. I know this is partially the case for two doctors that I know of who do the in home option.

1 Reply

Tanner Marsey

Rental Property Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2017 · 439 posts · 578 votes

7y

Probably in the minority here but I think it’s mattering less and less. I know a lot of people in Southern California who own homes worth well over a million dollars (which isn’t anything out of the ordinary in LA, SD, OC) and send their kids to private schools because the public schools are horrible. Clearly the horrible schools don’t have any effect on rent or RE value around here. Know people in Dallas, tx in the same boat. Too many variables to answer this question.

0 Reply

Mark Creason

Real Estate Lender and Broker · Dallas, TX · Member since 2013 · 966 posts · 500 votes

7y

I have several points to make. I have a 13 year old and we live in a Texas town that has a reputation for good schools. The school district has access to all kinds of great programs that home schooling and online schools will most likely not offer. @Jay Hinrichs Prosper HS offers a flight school. I know you fly. How many schools offer something like this? Prosper also has a hockey and Lacrosse team. I believe Prosper won the state Lacrosse championship beating out some of those high priced private schools. A well funded public school has resources that most private schools do not have access to.

I grew up in Chicago. I went to Gordon Tech HS which was a private Catholic school. Chicago in the 1980s had a really bad public school system. My parents look back and now admit that they should have moved to the suburbs. I lived closer to Maine South which has a great reputation. If we had moved about 3 blocks further west, I would have gone there. Now Chicago has changed. The public schools have gotten better. Gordon which is now called De Paul College Prep has seen enrollment go from around 2500 boys (We were all boys at the time) to about 500 co-ed student. Tuition is currently $12,159 per school year. Most renters are not in a position to pay that kind of money.

I have chosen to send my kid to public schools but have also chosen to live in good school districts. Just my "two cents".

2 Reply

Matt R.

Sherman Oaks, CA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes

7y

Just to follow up I am all for good public options. Where I went to school, it was considered one of the top 10 in the nation and top 1 or 2 in the state for publics. This was essentially a feeder public school for top colleges in Cali. Real estate values were always more than surrounding, maybe 30%+. Many families moved in as soon as they had the dinero. Then add you might save another 20 to 50k in private school fees annually. It maybe actually cheaper long run I think some figured out too. All this typically adds substantial RE value. Location, location, location sometimes revolves around the public schools in a very big way.

0 Reply

Doug McVinuaPro Member

Property Manager · Queen Creek, AZ · Member since 2016 · 609 posts · 426 votes

7y

@Nathan Paul Konyndyk Nathan one of your comments stated above regarding Arizona requires a correction "Arizona doesn't fund schools and supports privatization efforts ie doesn't matter as much."

Arizona absolutely funds schools to the tune of over $10,000 per student per year in public and charter schools. Public schools receive more overall funding than charter schools but both are funded reasonably well. Funding for schools has increased by over 20% in some aspects in the last couple of years. Much of the debate in Arizona comes to teacher pay and guess what the State of AZ doesn't set teacher pay, the districts do. The state funds the districts and the district decides how to spend the money.

Of course, this is very political and can be debated six ways sideways until the cows come home but I wanted to at least correct your statement that Arizona doesn't fund schools. Arizona does support charter schools and they are very popular. Some would prefer charter schools be shut down, throttled back etc, personally, I like to have choices. Public schools might be the answer for some and charters for others.

Sorry to rant on Bigger Pockets re something so political but I couldn't let such a gross misstatement stand.

[email protected]602-751-7577

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Daniel BautistaPro Member

Rental Property Investor · Colorado Springs, CO · Member since 2019 · 12 posts · 3 votes

7y

@Shiloh Lundahl

As a parent and serving in military, My kids have moved around a lot. Not until I moved to Colorado that I had the opportunity to move with different districts in same city. Partly my fault for not doing more research however, to my surprise our sub par school district schools tend to devote more individualized attention to the children in my opinion. Also due to zoning automatically accepted my eldest to a Charter school, which to my perception was for more underprivileged kids. They offered so much more in after school programs and I have had previous teachers email me personally about progress in the classroom. Same with with my grade school aged kids. Once we move to a more affluent part of town, things did get a little more costly. For example, school supply had option to be provided by parents, new district it was mandatory and actually double cost of old district. Bus was no longer covered, must be paid quarterly but you can receive discount paying the year in full. We had the luxury of opting to pay for an after school program for art at cost $40 bucks per for both my girls. To come to my surprise the program consisted 30 min of coloring on printed paper, what a joke, I couldn’t believe it. Does district really matter? Absolutely not. It’s the school it itself and faculty that makes the difference not the location. Just because the facility looks nicer doesn’t mean they received a better education. Lastly, as proof my daughter took entrance exam and was told to be gifted. Which no doubt my girls are bright but when I ask them how they did they told it was easy because they been working on those subjects tested weeks before so they were ahead of the game.

0 Reply

Nathan Paul Konyndyk

Property Manager · Denver, CO · Member since 2018 · 14 posts · 5 votes

7y

@Doug McVinua Arizona does not fund it's schools. It consistently ranks at the bottom.

https://www.governing.com/gov-data/education-data/state-education-spending-per-pupil-data.html

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Is BUYING in a GOOD SCHOOL DISTRICT even that important anymore?

Is BUYING in a GOOD SCHOOL DISTRICT even that important anymore?

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