Should Newbies Have Access to Calculators?

Should Newbies Have Access to Calculators?

Rental Property Investor · Phoenix/Lima, Arizona/OH · Member since 2012 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes

OK, y'all.  Are you new?  If so - pay attention...

I got a PM today from a very nice guy.  Very well-spoken, seemingly intelligent, and well educated.

He introduced himself, and congratulated me with a job well-done on Cardone's show. And then he proceeded to tell me about a multiplex he was considering.  He said that the price was too high, and he knew it.  But, he was going to be able to achieve very favorable owner-financing terms, with low down-payment, 30-year am, and low interest rate.

He then invited me to view a link, which turned out to be a PDF of Brandon Turner's BP Calculator, and asked for my opinion...

You should know - I answer each and every message, email, and telephone call; specifically when approached with due consideration, as in this case.  I proceeded to open the PDF, and was impressed!

I've never actually used the calculator before.  I've heard Brandon sell it as "sexy" on webinars before, but I'm old and got no energy for "sexy"...  So - I was impressed with all of the color and nice graphics...

And then I looked at the top line numbers:

Income: $7,975
Expenses: $7,560

Cash Flow: $414

This is a 10+ unit, by the way.  The proposed cost was north of $650k.  Required down-payment was around $30,000...

WOW - anyone else see a problem with this?  

I've often said that it's about as difficult to buy RE as it is to fall out of a tree.  Well - this dude just fell out of a flippin tree...haha  At least he was smart enough to allow a tree branch (me) smack him over the top of his head.  Perhaps now he'll begin to look at things a bit differently..

But, there is another interesting piece to be noted here.  How can someone look at those numbers inside a colorful sexy PDF and see absolutely nothing?  And - should someone have access to a tool such as this prior to attaining a level of fluency to be able to interpret what he is seeing?

This type of use of calculators demotes them to a stat gimmick.  The tool is no use until and unless the user knows enough to be able to use it.

So - should newbies have access to calculators?  Is it really a benefit.  Or, would it be better, if we really want to teach them how to do this math, to sit them down in front of a spreadsheet and really teach them how this works...perhaps even in a webinar?

Thoughts? 

1Reply
223 views

Most Popular Reply

Brandon TurnerPro Member
Investor · Maui, HI · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 3k+ votes
11y

The calculators are just a tool. A spreadsheet is not going to be any better at telling someone that $400 a month in cash flow on a 10-plex is a bad idea. The only way they learn that is by learning it, which ... correct me if I'm wrong... is what 99% of BiggerPockets is? 

See this reply in the discussion

92 Replies

Jump to latestLatest
  • Rental Property Investor · Phoenix/Lima, Arizona/OH · Member since 2012 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    11y

    @Charles Worth - considering that a newbie brain is indeed hazardous material, I'll take on the testing for a meager compensation TBD at a later time :)

  • Rental Property Investor · Phoenix/Lima, Arizona/OH · Member since 2012 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    11y

    Funny, @Roy N. - I am about to close on a loan, and all I did was email the banker...no pictures or anything.  I used to do the whole dog and pony thing - too old for all that **** :)

  • Rental Property Investor · Scottsdale, AZ · Member since 2010 · 390 posts · 599 votes
    11y
    Ben Leybovich don't you provide a calculator with your course? Have you seen a Multifamily in the last 3 years that would break even on a 5% downpayment?
  • Real Estate Investor · Athens, GA · Member since 2015 · 44 posts · 20 votes
    11y
    Hey Ben, can I get the name of your banker? Need to send him an email. Adam
  • Rental Property Investor · Phoenix/Lima, Arizona/OH · Member since 2012 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    11y

    Haha - @Serge S. 

    I spend hours in my course teaching people the concepts and metrics, as well as perspective on both.  Yes - I provide a calculator software, but 2 things are true:

    1. In CFFU Analyzer everything happens in one screen, as opposed to an app which moves from one screen to the next, to the next.  The advantage of this is that by changing one of the inputs, the student can see the immediate correlative outcome in all of the rest of the metrics.  It is not fancy, but it is, for this reason, a better tool for learning the relationship between factors in a RE transaction.

    2. I tell students up-front that while I provide the calculator as a learning tool, I want them to achieve a level of fluency which will allow for building of their own spreadsheets.  That is the end goal for me as a teacher...

    As to the other thing, as you know better than most here, I bought a 10-plex in 2013 with 1.5% out of pocket which made me $12,000 in 2014.  I wrote about it on the blog.  They are hard to find, but they are out there :)

  • Rental Property Investor · Phoenix/Lima, Arizona/OH · Member since 2012 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    11y

    @Adam Morgan - sure.  He'll laugh you out of his office the same way he did me 8 years ago!

    These relationships take time :)

  • Graham MinkPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Stowe, VT · Member since 2013 · 102 posts · 27 votes
    11y
    Ben Leybovich I agree that the online calculator is a powerful tool, not one to be taken lightly, especially if someone is uneducated in how it works. A chainsaw is a a powerful tool as well, and there are no restrictions on who can buy or use one, but common sense dictates extreme caution when using one. That being said you are always going to hear stories about that newbie who chops off an appendage (or buys a terrible "investment") by taking on more than they are ready for with that powerful tool every now and again. However, if you weren't allowed to use a chainsaw EVER, until you knew how to use it, how would anyone ever learn? I feel the calculators are a great tool for newbies to have access to, how else are they going to learn? Math and spreadsheets aren't everyone's strong suits, and there is room in RE investing for people that would rather not have a masters in finance. Heck, the calculators will make astute newbie investors wonder why the numbers come out that way and maybe lead them into learning spreadsheets. Maybe Brandon Turner should put a disclaimer or warning on the calculators, but he definitely shouldn't remove them. Perhaps you agree and are just looking to stir the pot and bring up another popular forum post, which you have the knack for being able to do!
  • Rental Property Investor · Buffalo, MN · Member since 2010 · 511 posts · 92 votes
    11y

    Maybe the investor didn't get the accurate numbers to put into the calculator and needs to double check them again.  Whats wrong with asking a seasoned investor (Ben) to check their numbers, so they can point out issues. That way the investor can understand its not a deal, because it makes no sense or keep working at it (pen and paper) or another tool to establish something that does make sense. I do believe this is part of BP.

    This way the chainsaw that they did pick up they now set back down before cutting off a body part.

  • Joshua D.Pro Member
    BiggerPockets Founder · HI · Member since 2008 · 16k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    11y

    Going forward, we will require any member who wants access to our toolset on BP to prove that they have taken a course from an expert guru, trainer, or other individual selling a course on real estate investing.

    It was wrong of us to let anyone use our calculators without making sure they were approved by the proper experts.

    Sorry everyone.

  • Rental Property Investor · Phoenix/Lima, Arizona/OH · Member since 2012 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    11y

    @Joshua D. - you know I love you, right?  You know I respect you.  Do you not see my point...at all?  You think I started this thread just to get a rise out of you?  Are you calling me a guru today...this is a major development, since in the past you've refrained from calling me a guru?!

    All I'm saying is that the stories of real estate are written with numbers.  Numbers convey color, character, temperature, size, and all the rest of it in real estate.  As such, it is nice to allow people to have access to a tool that spits out some numbers, but it would be truly helpful for newbies if someone took the time to teach them how to read those numbers - what they mean - what they stand for, and how the story really goes - today, tomorrow, and 5 years from now...

  • Rental Property Investor · Askov, MN · Member since 2015 · 17 posts · 12 votes
    11y

    Great thread and so timely for me. @Graham Mink  hit the nail on the head as to what I was thinking: "Math and spreadsheets aren't everyone's strong suits, and there is room in RE investing for people that would rather not have a masters in finance. "  There are many of us that come from different walks of life and have virtually no background in finance, spreadsheets, analysis etc.  That said, should I have a basic understanding of the numbers?  Of course,  Will I ever be an expert in numbers?  No, and quite honestly I don't think I need to be.  There are tools and resources available, like the calculator, the spreadsheet and professionals that make it possible for me to make an informed decision.

  • Rental Property Investor · Phoenix/Lima, Arizona/OH · Member since 2012 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    11y

    @Brad McCulloch - thanks for your comment...you prove my point.

    Dude - REI is ALL ABOUT THE NUMBERS - period! The numbers are the foundational element of any investing including REI. I don't think that either @Brandon Turner or @Joshua D. would disagree with this basic reality!

    Now - the fact that BP is now breeding a generation of newbies, such as perhaps yourself, who would rather take a short-cut via an app rather than truly understand how things work is scary to me - very scary indeed!

    Don't get me wrong - Brandon and I will be buying buildings from you short when you can't float them any more, and as such I should be happy that so many clueless people are in the marketplace...future opportunities for me.  But, I am not happy; indeed, I am sad. BiggerPockets is now feeding the euphoria in a very dangerous way...

    I say again - if you want to learn, then learn.  RE only has 2 speeds - forward and reverse. Forward is slow because the learning curve is so great.  Reverse is very, very fast, and it hurts like hell.  The market punishes those who take short-cuts!

  • Rental Property Investor · Askov, MN · Member since 2015 · 17 posts · 12 votes
    11y

    Well, @Ben Leybovich , you miss my point, as I somehow assumed you would.  Obviously, I need to understand the numbers.  Do I need to be an expert? No.  Can I still be successful in real estate?  Yes.  Let me ask you this?  Do you do the rehab work on the properties you purchase? I do.  Have you ever hired someone to do remodeling or repairs that you don't have the skill or time to complete?  I assume you have, and isn't that part of the game in that you avail yourself of skilled professional people to assist you in your business?  Likewise, I will never be a financial genius, but I do know how to delegate and utilize resources to my advantage. 

    I realize that you are a numbers guy and very successful at it, but I don't think you should sell us short, so to speak, those of us that come from different backgrounds and thinking who will never be as expert as yourself.  Not a shortcut, simply a fact.

  • Roy N.Pro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Fredericton, New Brunswick · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Ben Leybovich:

    @Brad McCulloch - thanks for your comment...you prove my point.

    Dude - REI is ALL ABOUT THE NUMBERS - period! The numbers are the foundational element of any investing including REI. I don't think that either @Brandon Turner or @Joshua D. would disagree with this basic reality!

    Now - the fact that BP is now breeding a generation of newbies, such as perhaps yourself, who would rather take a short-cut via an app rather than truly understand how things work is scary to me - very scary indeed!

    Ben:

    You need to look at it as future opportunity. Those who do not take the time to understand the principles will be those who find themselves in mediocre investments which will not float when things get tight - another thread was posted this morning indicating home repossessions are on the rise {again} in 10-states.

    It is no different than the the three 28 - 50 unit buildings on which we were outbid over the past six months - In each instance, I sent the buyers a letter of introduction congratulating them on the acquisition and letting them know how to get in touch if we might be of any assistance to them in the future.  I know what they paid, what the rental market will support, and how they will be faring if interest rates rise 1-2% in the next five years.

  • Rental Property Investor · Phoenix/Lima, Arizona/OH · Member since 2012 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    11y

    @Brad McCulloch - your last comment is also scary, dude!  You are equating hiring someone to hammer nails and drive screws, and hiring someone to analyze the worth of an investment opportunty into which you are about to dump thousands of dollars!  Are you nuts?!

    Dude - seriously, with this kind of thinking, you are much better off handing your money to a stock broker.  Or, better yet, just track S&P and bypass the fees.

    I hate to be bringing this news to you, but the skill of driving screws is a dime a dozen out there.  While the skill of analyzing the numbers is prerogative of very few, and very sophisticated investors.  BP is here to try and help you become one of those sophisticated players in the marketplace.  I think it is telling that you, instead of listening to wisdom, would rather expend energy trying to prove a point to validate your view.  

    Listen to us, dude.  It's all about the numbers!

  • Roy N.Pro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Fredericton, New Brunswick · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    11y

    @Ben Leybovich 

    To give @Brad McCulloch a little credit.  Hiring expertise to analyse deals and successfully acquire assets is essentially what your investors are doing when they sign on to a syndication.

    Yes, it's a little more expensive to hire that expertise than someone who drives nails - but not really worse than an accountant or attorney.

  • Rental Property Investor · Askov, MN · Member since 2015 · 17 posts · 12 votes
    11y

    @Ben Leybovich , I really do see your point of view, that's not what I'm debating.  You actually helped make my point that I intended with: "hiring someone to analyze the worth of an investment opportunty into which you are about to dump thousands of dollars! Are you nuts?!"  That's exactly what I would do if I didn't feel I had the expertise or experience to do it myself.  As far as being nuts, well I have been accused before, but have somehow managed to avoid electric shock and a lobotomy..,....It's still early though.  One last point though, and then that will be it for me.  I don't discount any of what you say.  I know you are right about the numbers, and ideally we would all become experts.  But I think you know as well as I do the chances of that happening with everyone involved in real estate investing is slim, for a variety of reasons.  And point taken, many will not succeed because of this.  Thanks for the thread.          

  • Joshua D.Pro Member
    BiggerPockets Founder · HI · Member since 2008 · 16k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    11y

    -- drops mic . . .

  • Rental Property Investor · Phoenix/Lima, Arizona/OH · Member since 2012 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    11y

    Oh, so now I am a guru and a troll, @Joshua D. ?!  C'mon man.  We are here to help newbies see things in proper light.  Are we not?

    Boy, I must really be saying the right things to encounter this much animosity...

  • Joshua D.Pro Member
    BiggerPockets Founder · HI · Member since 2008 · 16k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    11y

    Ben - Your goal isn't to get new investors to see things in the right light -- your goal is to create a thread that creates controversy and to promote yourself and your 'university.' You've succeeded.  Congrats.

    Claiming that we are out to do anything other than help new investors is pure hyperbole and you of all people know it. 

    I'm done with all this nonsense -- have a nice weekend.

  • Real Estate Investor · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2015 · 110 posts · 71 votes
    11y

    Originally posted by @Ben Leybovich:

    Isn't anyone on this Forum, who gives sound advise that is, technically a "Guru"?

    GURU defined by Webster: a teacher or guide that you trust; a person who has a lot of experience in or knowledge about a particular subject

    The word is usually thrown around as a derogatory adjective, but do we sometimes give the noun version to the hype jockeys too many times whereby on some level validating them as such and forget the true meaning of the word? BP is a platform for Gurus of all kinds...and some of those Gurus use the platform to achieve personal gains which is also fine in my opinion...after all, we are an opportunistic society..right?

    You can be a "Guru" or have a structured and informative program, book, spreadsheet, etc. and have a "Guru Program or Guru Tool" and that's OK by Webster if the information contained in the subject material is sound, proven, factual and relative to the subject at hand.

    So I say...go be a Guru!...produce valuable Guru tools and publications...embrace the sound knowledge that you may have, share it as you see fit and from which you design valuable spreadsheets, informative podcasts/webinars or publish materials...but don't bash other valuable "Gurus" for personal gains.

    In most industries, information is welcomed and embraced...yet in this industry it sometimes becomes a cut-throat mission not because the information, program or tool doesn't have value, but simply because of the human nature need to be recognized and valued as a leader figure (some say ego) in a community. I am here to say there is room for all to be valued and respected and feel that a forum should embrace those willing to stand up for their positions and inquisitions if they hold some form of merit instead of always trying to find fault with their language. A healthy debate is one thing, but often times you don't see that when a post gets a running and usually it's because someone feels threatened in some fashion or offended.

    This post as it started, and why I chimed in to begin with, had merit and validity. Was there room for debate...SURE! But it seems to have moved from a healthy debate to a non-productive thread as so many of these unfortunately turn into in the end which ends up losing the point all together and becomes more of a distraction instead of a tool for readers to use.

    Again...the point of this thread, as it started, was not the Guru Tools themselves, but simply questioned the timing to which those tools are being offered to new investors in training and the manner in which they are offered (published yet not guided) I believe...though I could be wrong!

    I stand by the fact that knowledge should go before tools so that one can appreciate those tools more and actually get something useful from them in the end.

    Happy Guruing!

  • Rental Property Investor · Phoenix/Lima, Arizona/OH · Member since 2012 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    11y

    @Joshua D. - that was uncalled for. 

  • Real Estate Investor · Eden Prairie, MN · Member since 2015 · 28 posts · 9 votes
    11y
    Great question. At the end of the day any tool isn't useful if you can't see what's right in from of you.
  • Investor · Cincinnati, OH · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y

    Yes, people just starting out should have access to calculators. 

  • Joshua D.Pro Member
    BiggerPockets Founder · HI · Member since 2008 · 16k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    11y

    Ben - What was uncalled for was to call in question my intentions and those of our team here at BP. I like you Ben, but I don't like you going out of your way to stoke controversy -- particularly when my name is at stake. You spend a lot of time with Brandon and absolutely know that our team has one singular goal -- to help people be more successful.

    I have no issue with a debate on the merits of new investors using calculators -- I do have an issue when you claim that BP is responsible for breeding a generation of miseducated investors (what your previous posts appear to be saying) by creating and offering our calculators.

    BP has done more to help educate real estate investors than most companies/websites/people have ever done. You know that is a fact.

    Instead of the controversy and insults (I recall you calling me a putz in one of your blog posts), keep to topics of merit (like the discussion about tools) without targeting folks.

    I called you last week once you got off the Cardone radio show to congratulate you on how well you did.  I've been supportive of you and have done so for a long time despite the insults.

    The response to that positivity doesn't feel very positive.

    I forgive you for it - regardless. 

    I just hope you can knock it off already.

    Enjoy your weekend.

Join the conversationCreate a free account to reply, vote on answers and follow this thread.