I am considering membership with Lifestyles Unlimited or Brad Sumrok for mentoring in multifamily investing. For those of you with any experience with either of these mentors, could you compare for me what they have to offer?
I don't know who any of these people are (Dal, Brad, whoever). But one question I'd have is: How many units do THEY own. Not as "Syndicators" or in a group of 100 other people, but themselves. How many deals have they bought.
It seems every time I run across these guys (not the two I mentioned specifically, I mean 'these guys' in a generic sense) it's always some group of people who are trying to pool money together or use OPM to make a deal happen.
While how many properties, or the value of your RE isn't a pissing contest, I would want to know that before I gave someone $10k to "mentor" me. Some of these guys seem to have an expert level in mentoring (or getting people to pay for mentoring) but when you ask what they've done they talk about their mentoring or syndication.
Janice,
I'm a member of Lifestyles Unlimited's Preferred Investor Group, those who have antied up the money to buy into the network of multi-family investors, and the accompanying training. I know that Brad Sumrock's group is similar in nature, but that's the extent of my knowledge, so I can't comment on it.
You've asked a pretty open-ended question. I suggest you go to one of the free informational sessions at the Lifestyles office in Houston. You'll get a feel for the organization and have the opportunity to ask some questions. Go to a case study one night, too. If the Houston case studies are like the Dallas cases studies, afterwards, people head to a restaurant for a couple of hours of Q&A and networking. Ask questions there. There are also several threads here where people have discussed Lifestyles. (Googling site:biggerpockets.com + lifestyles may work better than BP's search function.)
That should provide you with all the contacts and information you need to make a decision about Lifestyles. Hope this helps.
Have you been to the weekend seminars offered by both groups? Which did you like better?
I'm a member of Brad's program so I can speak more about that one. He offers a lower level (Foundations) for those only interested in passive investing, and I think it's a good way to get your feet wet, and get into a deal without spending nearly as much money. (I'm in that one, so I don't have first hand experience with the mentoring.) You can always upgrade to personal mentoring later if you decide you want to do your own deal. Lifestyles offers only one program for multi-family, and even only passive investors need to be a member in order to invest.
Another difference, one thing Brad will say at his R2R event is that when you join his mentoring program, Brad himself is your mentor. Other programs have a well known name (Robert Kiyosaki, Dave Lindahl....) at the top, but only an underling will be working with your personally, and it might not even be the same person from week to week. Brad does also have people working for him and he does delegate some tasks to them, but ultimately Brad himself will be looking at your deal before you make an offer. I am not sure if all Lifestyles students have even met Del?
Final comment I'll make for now is that many of Brad's students are former Lifestyles members who followed him when Brad started his own thing. I don't know of anyone who has done the reverse (i.e. quit Brad's group to join Lifestyles). If I think of anything else I'll come back and post. There is a good thread on BP with lots of back and forth about Brad, and there are many threads about Lifestyles. Many of those posts could answer your questions if you haven't read through them already.
I was a foundations member of Brad Sumrock's group last year. He once worked for Lifestyles for a few years. Foundations is about $4k and personal mentor students is about $15k. Especially when it comes to Dallas he owns the Rolodex and is extremely well connected. He is also very capable when finding and analyzing value added or yield flow multifamily deals. If you want to be a sponsor then get the personal student program.
@Janice G. I have an opinion but it's not relevant. What you should be asking yourself is what am I paying for Nd what am I getting?
In one of the recent BP podcasts there was a woman investors (can't recall her name at the moment) that said something that was just right: don't look for a mentor, look for a partner!
Objectively speaking, all of the "gurus" out there are being paid to get people through doing a transaction. Note that they get paid to get you through A transaction, not necessarily a good one. They won't lose money if you or your investors do.
If you partner with someone they have as much interest in the transaction success as you do.
I'm not talking about any specific program (there are others on top of the 2 you mentioned) but I've seen some of these groups get into a bidding frenzy against others from the same group to the point that the deals are just not sustainable.
Many of these groups have strict rules agains investing outside the group. Really?!
My advice would be to find a partner to join on your first deal. One that will teach you and share his methods with you. A partner that doesn't get consumed by then"mine" mentality but believes in the abundance mentality.
I guess my opinion did call me through in the post but it does not refer any of these two groups specifically but it's more of my approach to all real estate "education" programs (those who can, do...)
Good luck!
Thank you for the feedback! Very valuable and I appreciate it. For those of you in Brad's program, @Paul B. @Fred Whitney, would you say that members who aren't in Dallas can still get similar value? I am in Houston and for that reason, LU seems to make more sense!
I don't know who any of these people are (Dal, Brad, whoever). But one question I'd have is: How many units do THEY own. Not as "Syndicators" or in a group of 100 other people, but themselves. How many deals have they bought.
It seems every time I run across these guys (not the two I mentioned specifically, I mean 'these guys' in a generic sense) it's always some group of people who are trying to pool money together or use OPM to make a deal happen.
While how many properties, or the value of your RE isn't a pissing contest, I would want to know that before I gave someone $10k to "mentor" me. Some of these guys seem to have an expert level in mentoring (or getting people to pay for mentoring) but when you ask what they've done they talk about their mentoring or syndication.
I believe Brad did work for Lifestyles in the Houston market and sub markets before he started his own organization in Dallas. He goes anywhere the numbers look good in the Marcus-Middlechap periodicals .
@Joseph Gozlan, and @Cody L., Brad Sumrok absolutely does "do" as well as teach. I have a long post somewhere on BP where I tried to objectively explain the benefits of paying a highly experienced and successful mentor, who IS walking the walk, and loves the teaching side of it. Im sure a search will find it.
Why would you care if they've syndicated vs owning as a solo buyer? If I want to learn about syndicating, I sure as heck want a mentor who can not only teach me how to locate, tour, analyze, offer on, inspect, purchase, rehab, operate, and sell it, as well as all the moving parts of raising money and managing investors. As a syndicator myself I can tell you it is MORE complicated and difficult than being a sole owner. You are still managing the asset, the management company, etc.
I joined Brads group as a student in 2014, have ownership in over 600 units, which is a very small number compared to some MANY other members of the group. I now work for him as well, which I'm sure will make some skeptics disregard my words, but I will not endorse something I don't wholeheartedly believe in.
If it matters, Brad has been a solo owner as well as syndicated thousands of units. He continues to do deals currently.
Absolutely you can still get value. Don't be put off because you don't live in Dallas. Yes, he is based here, and I suppose his students who are local have the opportunity to meet with him in person more often. He also has a buyer broker service available to his students (for an additional fee) that is far more effective in the local market than in places where he doesn't have as many relationships. But he has students all over the place, and they are still doing plenty of deals, sometimes in their own market, sometimes remotely. Just in the past few months, I know of a student in Northern California who bought a property in South Dakota, a student in Houston buying a property in Waco, a student in San Francisco buying in Dallas, a student in San Diego buying in Fort Worth, a student in Florida buying several properties in Florida, students in Oklahoma City buying in Oklahoma City, and so on...
It's a fair question, but you're still within driving distance. In fact, there are several of Brad's students who host Meetups in the Houston area. The best way to decide whether the program is right for you is to meet someone who is already in it, and ask about their experience. You're doing it now, but you should do it in person too. That advice also applies to Lifestyles, by the way.
One thing I'll bring up in response to Cody's skepticism, which, if he is ignorant about either of the two groups that the OP asked about, is probably justified.
What if, instead of evaluating the teacher's success, you were able to evaluate the students' success? Every month, Lifestyles puts on a case study, where one IRO or lead investor presents a property and discusses how he found it; how much he paid for it; how much equity he raised; how much the loan was and what the rate was; what he did to improve the property, management, operations and financials; and the financials themselves. A week later, Lifestyles members have the opportunity to visit the property, see it for themselves, and ask any questions. This combination allows members to not only find out what's working and what's not in the multi-family market, but also to evaluate the presenter as a potential investment partner for any future acquisitions he might make. I really don't care how many apartment units Del Walmsley owns; much more relevant to me is how many those who have adopted his Lifestyles "map" own, and how they have done with them.
One of the pitches that Lifestyles uses to get people interested is the idea of retiring in five years after having developed a stream of passive income. I know several people who have done so. The most striking to me are a couple of guys who used to work for a major technology company headquartered in Dallas. One's in his early 40s, one in his late 30s. Based on what I know of their old jobs, I'd say they were probably making high-five-, low-six-figure incomes. Both have retired in the last year and are living off of the income they're making from apartments that they purchased using what Lifestyles taught them.
I agree with @Dillard Stone that looking at what the students have done may be a better indication of what the program can do than asking what the teacher is currently doing. Could they have had the same success without joining the program? Some of them would, but in most cases it would have taken a lot longer and they would have made more mistakes along the way.
One of the most valuable things a mentor can do for you is keep you from getting into a bad deal. Better to do no deal at all than a bad one. If you flip a house or buy a single family rental, and it doesn't work out, you can probably recover from that. Learn from your mistakes and make sure you do better on the next one. If you manage to buy a $4 million apartment complex, I don't think you can fail on the first attempt and ever expect to get another chance to try it again.
Brad's program also has events where you visit student properties and hear their story about what they did. The R2R event includes one of these bus tours, so you can hear and see some success stories without becoming a full-fledged member. Attending Meetups, as I mentioned in my other post, is another way to meet some of the students, hear their stories, and in some cases, actually visit their property.
Regarding the alternate approach of simply finding a partner who will hold your hand and make sure the deal succeeds, I think there are many ways to skin a cat, and that method can work too. One drawback, however, is that if you are a total beginner, how would you know how to vet a potential partner? You wouldn't know what to look for. I think someone who has a little experience already would be more successful with that approach. A mentoring program really compresses the learning curve for someone with zero experience. I don't know what the background of the original poster is.
@Joseph Gozlan, and @Cody L., Brad Sumrok absolutely does "do" as well as teach. I have a long post somewhere on BP where I tried to objectively explain the benefits of paying a highly experienced and successful mentor, who IS walking the walk, and loves the teaching side of it. Im sure a search will find it.
Why would you care if they've syndicated vs owning as a solo buyer? If I want to learn about syndicating, I sure as heck want a mentor who can not only teach me how to locate, tour, analyze, offer on, inspect, purchase, rehab, operate, and sell it, as well as all the moving parts of raising money and managing investors. As a syndicator myself I can tell you it is MORE complicated and difficult than being a sole owner. You are still managing the asset, the management company, etc.
I joined Brads group as a student in 2014, have ownership in over 600 units, which is a very small number compared to some MANY other members of the group. I now work for him as well, which I'm sure will make some skeptics disregard my words, but I will not endorse something I don't wholeheartedly believe in.
If it matters, Brad has been a solo owner as well as syndicated thousands of units. He continues to do deals currently.
FYI I'm not saying these guys are not the real deal. I have no idea. I know a lot of owners and think I'm pretty plugged in into whos doing what. I've never heard of them. But that really doesn't meany anything.
And yes, if you're looking to be a syndicator then learning from a syndicator has a ton of value. Maybe I was just projecting. as in, personally I don't care how many units someone bought by rounding up partners to give them money. But that's just me. If that's what you want to do then yeah, finding someone that does that will be great.
Best of luck!
@Janice G. Lifestyles Unlimited is legitimate. They way they teach you to structure deals, especially on the MF side, can be pretty remarkable. This isn't a guru that teaches you how to buy subject-to or birddog...
@Janice G. Hi Janice! What are your goals? Are you wanting to be a passive investor only or are you wanting to learn how to syndicate your own deals? Do you have any previous real estate investing experience? My husband and I have over 2100 apartment units - mostly Dallas and Atlanta...with more on the way. I would be happy to answer any questions you may have or give suggestions for books to read to give you a jump start.
We have plenty of SFR experience and are considering branching out to MFR. I understand where many of you are coming from, and I am independent and strong minded, however, that personality trait does not make up for my lack of education and need of hand-holding especially in such a big step. I had a great mentor in SFR, and since finding Bigger Pockets last year, I've had many fabulous teachers, but I would never consider moving into MFR without someone I know very well and trust OR an organization with many satisfied customers so, lacking the former, we will continue to pursue the latter.
@Paul B. I think you make such a great point about vetting potential partners. I think it is wise to invest in wisdom and understanding from those who have gone before me. I'd hate to be foolish with the money my husband has worked so hard for!
Is Brad's foundations program for a specified time period or a lifetime?
@Janice G. It's for a year with renewals at a lower cost. But obviously the education you get and the contacts you make stay with you. Even if you don't decide to renew, you can still invest with the people you already know and now you have to knowledge to go out and meet other people, vet them, and invest/partner with them.
Lifestyles has a restriction on who can invest within their syndication, which is that you have to be not only a student but a Preferred Investor Group member. That's the same level and same price as someone who wants to be a sponsor pays. And if you decide not to renew, you can no longer invest with them.
@Harrison Liu I've wondered about that same thing, Harrison! Hoping some who are actively involved in apartment purchases in 2017 chime in on this. With SFR, i haven't worried too much about finding the greatest deals... my money invested, even when I've paid a fair price for a fair product has brought returns over time.
I went to Del Walmsley's 2 day in Houston and loved it. I took the strategies taught in his 2 seminar and combined that along with David Lindahl's Multifamily Millions book and David Lindahl's Emerging Markets book and Loopholes of RE by Garett Sutton and used all that info to buy 6 apartment complexes in NE Ohio. I thought Del Walmsley was extremely honest and sincere. He owns thousands if front doors and has been teaching and mentoring for 25 years.
I am a basic $500.00 member and just renewed at the $295.00 special and am eligible to travel to Houston and take the two day workshop with Del Walmsley anytime again. The honesty he displayed was evident, when I wanted to sign up for his preferred Investor group membership and I wanted to 1031 exchange my pricey San Diego single families as a passive in their deals in Texas. He and the mentors point blank told me that my 1031 money could not be used as a passive in any of their deals. My 1031 exchange entity could not legally coexist with the entity set up at LUI. Now they could have suckered me and took my money and a month or two months later, I could have investigated many deals with them and found out later. That is the sign of a reputable organization, based on values.
Swanny
@Harrison Liu I've wondered about that same thing, Harrison! Hoping some who are actively involved in apartment purchases in 2017 chime in on this. With SFR, i haven't worried too much about finding the greatest deals... my money invested, even when I've paid a fair price for a fair product has brought returns over time.
Multifamily buyer in Houston (near you) here. And yes, 2017 has been a good year. Deals are harder to find but still there. Bought a 30+ unit in Montrose, a 110+ unit by 45 and 610 loop, and a 78 unit SE inner loop. Oh and some large commercial stuff in 3rd ward. All in the last 12 months.
@Janice G. you may want to consider investing passively with an active syndicator to learn the ropes.
To name a few here on BP, @Joe Fairless, @Brian Burke @Tamiel Kenney @Jeff Greenberg @David Thompson and there are many others.
@Brian Adams
Thanks Brian, I have written a piece on this exact approach. You can learn a lot from syndicates and how they operate by passively investing in their deals to start. I call this the earn and learn approach.
https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/432/topics/30...
Although I have no knock against clubs, when this topic comes up it seems only folks talk about clubs but there are alternative avenues to getting good solid coaching that I think have some advantages over clubs. One thing you don't learn and is a skill you should learn is raising capital. Clubs don't teach that. Once the guru stamps it as a good deal, club members (hundreds, thousands) come to you once you post the deal. That does not happen in the real world outside of clubs. Many good syndicators will leave these clubs over time due to imposed restrictions on deal structuring and then they enter another world unbeknownst to them that can be challenging because the network was derived from club members and they are no longer with the club.
@Cody L
As Cody suggests, make sure whoever is mentoring or coaching you is doing a lot of deals personally. You may be able to help them out in some capacity. In a club not sure how much that would happen but there are coaches out there truly doing 1x1 teaching and that is how I was able to get involved in a bigger way fast.
@Brian Adams thanks Brian. I agree with Brian and @David Thompson There are many ways to learn the business and one is to be a passive investor. I think that there are many of us that have started out that way. I do believe that one of the main key factors to success is your "why" and your drive to get there. Knowledge and guidance is a necessary key, but you need to drive yourself forward to be successful.
Its been a few years - anyone have any more insights on the sumrok classes?