Tiny homes, communities for them and the future.
Developer · Denver, CO · Member since 2019 · 273 posts · 106 votes
Tiny homes, communities for them and the future.
Most Popular Reply
Member since 2016 · 13k+ posts · 12k+ votes
7yTiny homes are a fad. Most buyers/builders spend far more than they are worth and rarely stay with them very long. Resale is very low due to limited buyers. Most are worth 50% or less that what they cost.
Most quickly discover they are not practical and realise their money is better invested in a conventional home where it retains value and usually appreciates.
RVs and small mobile homes have existed for 60+ years. No reason to reinvent the wheel at twice the cost.
90 Replies
- Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes7y
Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:
@Account Closed tiny homes are nothing new, it is just a hipster name given to pretty looking mobile homes. Don't believe me? The picture you posted is basically the same size as a single wide AND it has wheels. Place those in a small lot community and what do you have??
The problem is tiny homes are not economical. The lowest cost housing is always going to be what makes best use of land and structure. That is apartments, condos or townhouses. You achieve higher density and shared walls to reduce structure cost. Individual structures are not the most economical or environmentally conscience method of housing. Cities have limited mobile home parks because the communities degrade over time.
You have to answer the question of what problem do "tiny homes" solve? It is not low cost housing so it is not an option for the homeless. You need to refine the marketing focus to people who have money, but buy the life style. If you try to sell it as the low cost alternative, math will get in the way.
Joe look at my partners vision for tiny homes
relevantbuildings.com/
I think you will see these are pretty cool but they are not cheap.. Of course in our world here on the west coast in any major urban setting we are seeing median price homes at 400k.. these will work in a few spots.. I bought a few lots in Richmond CA and was toying with the idea of putting these on their.. but he does not have them approved outside of OR>
I snagged the lot for 60k put say one of these 100k units on it and now you have a 175k into a home in market that is 25 minutes ( without heavy commute traffic) to downtown SF.. were median price is about 1.5 million.. so these would fill a huge need and gap in high priced areas.. for 90% of the country I don't see it.. existing homes in areas like say indy were median home price is 120k.. you can buy existing for less .. why bother right ?
I agree they look cool. They are just not the lowest cost housing method. On the west coast the value is in your land. So the best way to reduce cost is increase density. In your example of your $60K lots being 25 minutes from SF, where housing is $1.5M, it would make more financial sense to put a more expensive house on the lots or build townhouses or condos. Of course assuming planning/zoning doesn't get in the way.
The new trend here is row houses on tiny lots with no yard. They are on slab, two car garage, two bedroom and 1300 square feet. They cost $230K new construction. You can get more square feet for the price buying a town house, but you have shared walls. These little houses sell like hotcakes to empty nesters. Most of the younger buyers are buying in the older part of town for $100K and they modernize the property making it worth $150K. Many of those are 1100 square foot houses, so tiny homes by most peoples standards. Ironically in the 1950's people raised a family of 6-8 in those same homes!
- 7yJay HinrichsBusiness MemberReal Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:
Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:
@Account Closed tiny homes are nothing new, it is just a hipster name given to pretty looking mobile homes. Don't believe me? The picture you posted is basically the same size as a single wide AND it has wheels. Place those in a small lot community and what do you have??
The problem is tiny homes are not economical. The lowest cost housing is always going to be what makes best use of land and structure. That is apartments, condos or townhouses. You achieve higher density and shared walls to reduce structure cost. Individual structures are not the most economical or environmentally conscience method of housing. Cities have limited mobile home parks because the communities degrade over time.
You have to answer the question of what problem do "tiny homes" solve? It is not low cost housing so it is not an option for the homeless. You need to refine the marketing focus to people who have money, but buy the life style. If you try to sell it as the low cost alternative, math will get in the way.
Joe look at my partners vision for tiny homes
relevantbuildings.com/
I think you will see these are pretty cool but they are not cheap.. Of course in our world here on the west coast in any major urban setting we are seeing median price homes at 400k.. these will work in a few spots.. I bought a few lots in Richmond CA and was toying with the idea of putting these on their.. but he does not have them approved outside of OR>
I snagged the lot for 60k put say one of these 100k units on it and now you have a 175k into a home in market that is 25 minutes ( without heavy commute traffic) to downtown SF.. were median price is about 1.5 million.. so these would fill a huge need and gap in high priced areas.. for 90% of the country I don't see it.. existing homes in areas like say indy were median home price is 120k.. you can buy existing for less .. why bother right ?
I agree they look cool. They are just not the lowest cost housing method. On the west coast the value is in your land. So the best way to reduce cost is increase density. In your example of your $60K lots being 25 minutes from SF, where housing is $1.5M, it would make more financial sense to put a more expensive house on the lots or build townhouses or condos. Of course assuming planning/zoning doesn't get in the way.
The new trend here is row houses on tiny lots with no yard. They are on slab, two car garage, two bedroom and 1300 square feet. They cost $230K new construction. You can get more square feet for the price buying a town house, but you have shared walls. These little houses sell like hotcakes to empty nesters. Most of the younger buyers are buying in the older part of town for $100K and they modernize the property making it worth $150K. Many of those are 1100 square foot houses, so tiny homes by most peoples standards. Ironically in the 1950's people raised a family of 6-8 in those same homes!
I did my home in Palo Alto was built in 1950 3 and 1 900 sq ft.. family of 4 and we lived there about 8 years.. not sure how but we made it. of course just the lot today is worth over 2 mil.. LOL. I paid 180k for it in 1982 a huge sum then..
- Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes7y
Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:
Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:
@Account Closed tiny homes are nothing new, it is just a hipster name given to pretty looking mobile homes. Don't believe me? The picture you posted is basically the same size as a single wide AND it has wheels. Place those in a small lot community and what do you have??
The problem is tiny homes are not economical. The lowest cost housing is always going to be what makes best use of land and structure. That is apartments, condos or townhouses. You achieve higher density and shared walls to reduce structure cost. Individual structures are not the most economical or environmentally conscience method of housing. Cities have limited mobile home parks because the communities degrade over time.
You have to answer the question of what problem do "tiny homes" solve? It is not low cost housing so it is not an option for the homeless. You need to refine the marketing focus to people who have money, but buy the life style. If you try to sell it as the low cost alternative, math will get in the way.
Joe look at my partners vision for tiny homes
relevantbuildings.com/
I think you will see these are pretty cool but they are not cheap.. Of course in our world here on the west coast in any major urban setting we are seeing median price homes at 400k.. these will work in a few spots.. I bought a few lots in Richmond CA and was toying with the idea of putting these on their.. but he does not have them approved outside of OR>
I snagged the lot for 60k put say one of these 100k units on it and now you have a 175k into a home in market that is 25 minutes ( without heavy commute traffic) to downtown SF.. were median price is about 1.5 million.. so these would fill a huge need and gap in high priced areas.. for 90% of the country I don't see it.. existing homes in areas like say indy were median home price is 120k.. you can buy existing for less .. why bother right ?
I agree they look cool. They are just not the lowest cost housing method. On the west coast the value is in your land. So the best way to reduce cost is increase density. In your example of your $60K lots being 25 minutes from SF, where housing is $1.5M, it would make more financial sense to put a more expensive house on the lots or build townhouses or condos. Of course assuming planning/zoning doesn't get in the way.
The new trend here is row houses on tiny lots with no yard. They are on slab, two car garage, two bedroom and 1300 square feet. They cost $230K new construction. You can get more square feet for the price buying a town house, but you have shared walls. These little houses sell like hotcakes to empty nesters. Most of the younger buyers are buying in the older part of town for $100K and they modernize the property making it worth $150K. Many of those are 1100 square foot houses, so tiny homes by most peoples standards. Ironically in the 1950's people raised a family of 6-8 in those same homes!
I did my home in Palo Alto was built in 1950 3 and 1 900 sq ft.. family of 4 and we lived there about 8 years.. not sure how but we made it. of course just the lot today is worth over 2 mil.. LOL. I paid 180k for it in 1982 a huge sum then..
My dad worked in Palo Alto in the early 80's and plane commuted from Minnesota. They tried to get him to relocate, but housing costs were too much. They were offering similar salary, but their house in Minnesota was $50K. That same house today is worth about $220. So I guess that is a good lesson in appreciation in different markets. $180K -- $2M versus $50K -- $220K
- 7yJay HinrichsBusiness MemberReal Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:
Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:
Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:
@Account Closed tiny homes are nothing new, it is just a hipster name given to pretty looking mobile homes. Don't believe me? The picture you posted is basically the same size as a single wide AND it has wheels. Place those in a small lot community and what do you have??
The problem is tiny homes are not economical. The lowest cost housing is always going to be what makes best use of land and structure. That is apartments, condos or townhouses. You achieve higher density and shared walls to reduce structure cost. Individual structures are not the most economical or environmentally conscience method of housing. Cities have limited mobile home parks because the communities degrade over time.
You have to answer the question of what problem do "tiny homes" solve? It is not low cost housing so it is not an option for the homeless. You need to refine the marketing focus to people who have money, but buy the life style. If you try to sell it as the low cost alternative, math will get in the way.
Joe look at my partners vision for tiny homes
relevantbuildings.com/
I think you will see these are pretty cool but they are not cheap.. Of course in our world here on the west coast in any major urban setting we are seeing median price homes at 400k.. these will work in a few spots.. I bought a few lots in Richmond CA and was toying with the idea of putting these on their.. but he does not have them approved outside of OR>
I snagged the lot for 60k put say one of these 100k units on it and now you have a 175k into a home in market that is 25 minutes ( without heavy commute traffic) to downtown SF.. were median price is about 1.5 million.. so these would fill a huge need and gap in high priced areas.. for 90% of the country I don't see it.. existing homes in areas like say indy were median home price is 120k.. you can buy existing for less .. why bother right ?
I agree they look cool. They are just not the lowest cost housing method. On the west coast the value is in your land. So the best way to reduce cost is increase density. In your example of your $60K lots being 25 minutes from SF, where housing is $1.5M, it would make more financial sense to put a more expensive house on the lots or build townhouses or condos. Of course assuming planning/zoning doesn't get in the way.
The new trend here is row houses on tiny lots with no yard. They are on slab, two car garage, two bedroom and 1300 square feet. They cost $230K new construction. You can get more square feet for the price buying a town house, but you have shared walls. These little houses sell like hotcakes to empty nesters. Most of the younger buyers are buying in the older part of town for $100K and they modernize the property making it worth $150K. Many of those are 1100 square foot houses, so tiny homes by most peoples standards. Ironically in the 1950's people raised a family of 6-8 in those same homes!
I did my home in Palo Alto was built in 1950 3 and 1 900 sq ft.. family of 4 and we lived there about 8 years.. not sure how but we made it. of course just the lot today is worth over 2 mil.. LOL. I paid 180k for it in 1982 a huge sum then..
My dad worked in Palo Alto in the early 80's and plane commuted from Minnesota. They tried to get him to relocate, but housing costs were too much. They were offering similar salary, but their house in Minnesota was $50K. That same house today is worth about $220. So I guess that is a good lesson in appreciation in different markets. $180K -- $2M versus $50K -- $220K
ya I call all of us who bought bay area real estate in the 70s and 80s accidential millionaires. we did not know any better we just needed a home to live in LOL I was 28 or 29 when I bought that.
- Investor · Anchorage, AK · Member since 2016 · 222 posts · 294 votes7y
@Account Closed I have been thinking of an idea to create a tiny home park...similar to a trailer park, but my vision is much nicer. Try to keep cool/neat/unique things in the park that millennial's would like, for example, maintained playground for kids, muscle beach style outdoor workout area for adults, a neat trail system inside the park itself for dog walkers, a community BBQ area, etc... You would also need to have rules/covenants so it doesn't end up looking like a trailer park too, like no junk cars outside the homes, mandatory roll cart trash and recycle service, keep lawn under 4" long (mow no less than twice a week), stuff like that. I'm telling you, I am on to something here, I have no idea how or where to begin!
- Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes7y
Originally posted by @Cam Jimmy:
@Account Closed I have been thinking of an idea to create a tiny home park...similar to a trailer park, but my vision is much nicer. Try to keep cool/neat/unique things in the park that millennial's would like, for example, maintained playground for kids, muscle beach style outdoor workout area for adults, a neat trail system inside the park itself for dog walkers, a community BBQ area, etc... You would also need to have rules/covenants so it doesn't end up looking like a trailer park too, like no junk cars outside the homes, mandatory roll cart trash and recycle service, keep lawn under 4" long (mow no less than twice a week), stuff like that. I'm telling you, I am on to something here, I have no idea how or where to begin!
Hmm...maybe the answer is simple. Build it and they will come?
- Flipper/Rehabber · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes7y
Originally posted by :
I know it will work for me as it has all the things designed into it that are important to me. I've also built in the "extra" space for when I find a partner and we need our "space".I have a very STRONG feeling that you will be selling it when you find a partner who wants to live with you :) I also think this may detract from your ability to find a partner. Certain people may like the idea, others will think you are crazy!
- Lender · Pensacola, FL · Member since 2017 · 658 posts · 626 votes7y
The appeal of a tiny home depends on personal taste and life need (Google "med cottage"). Some people want to age in place as they get older. Other people want less stuff to buy and maintain. It's too bad many municipalities see tiny homes as a sign of an undesirable neighborhood. For some, less is more, although I wouldn't pay a premium for a tiny home.
- Developer · Denver, CO · Member since 2019 · 273 posts · 106 votes7y
@Roger Steciak
Certainly Roger. The market assigns a dollar figure to things, but I think it's the individual that assigns value.
- Developer · Denver, CO · Member since 2019 · 273 posts · 106 votes7y
@Cam @Merrit
Indeed! You both seem to understand the vision that is the tiny home community at large! I am working in establishing such a place. The biggest thing is nailing down an individual or group who sees this as well and has the capital to invest in it. I've already got a county that's willing to work with me, planned unit development style, an engineering firm hired with conceptual design completed, market research and a handful of individuals who are willing to be "founding residents".
- Developer · Denver, CO · Member since 2019 · 273 posts · 106 votes7y
@John Woodrich
I'm ok if people think I'm crazy! 😜
- Member since 2019 · 16 posts · 3 votes7y
Best idea with tiny homes are airbnb. I have a friend that does it and makes way more than he would if he just rented it out. Very easy to clean and there is a big market for them right now, I do believe that they are a fad so I would not invest too much into them.
- Lender · Pensacola, FL · Member since 2017 · 658 posts · 626 votes7y
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
@Roger Steciak
Certainly Roger. The market assigns a dollar figure to things, but I think it's the individual that assigns value.
All markets exhibit segmentation. With cars, for example, some people value the subcompacts while other people value the luxury models. Differences of opinion are what make markets. The riches are in the niches.
- Santa Rosa, CA · Member since 2017 · 325 posts · 701 votes7y
A few thoughts
- Your 6 year old does not care about your politics, they want a room with a their stuff and a dog just like their friends. You may convince yourself that the inconvenience of a tiny home is worth the environmental impact/finance savings. They just know they have to take cold showers.
- Even adults don't want to look at each other every day all day.
- The mobility is unneeded for the vast majority of the population
- Biggest reason, indoor plumbing. Running water and sewers were a huge advancement in technology and human comfort. I have no idea why anyone would go backwards.
So for environmentally conscious, financially constrained, singles or couples with no children, who like to move around and who are willing to live without running water and sewers it is a legitimate choice. For the other 99% of the population it is an interesting episode of tiny homes on HGTV.
- Developer · Denver, CO · Member since 2019 · 273 posts · 106 votes7y
@John Nachtigall
What are you talking about? Tiny homes have electricity, they have hot and cold running water and most have flushing toilets and a shower too. Many when have laundry in the home as well! There are a few who opt for a composting toilet but if anyone asks me, is recommend they plumb for a regular toilet too.
This proves to me that there still needs to be a lot of education to the public about what a tiny home is and what it is not.
- Severna Park, MD · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 7k+ votes7y
I have a camping trailer 30 ft long with a slide out . onr trip it rained all weekend ..............I have 2 boys ...............they are lucky to be alive after that weekend of being cooped up . Now in the morning after an evening of adult beverages and when i get up to take care of business , I have had the rest of the family evacuate the camper .
Tiny houses dont do well with Kids
- Developer · Denver, CO · Member since 2019 · 273 posts · 106 votes7y
Originally posted by @Matthew Paul:
" Tiny home community " or "trailer park " or campground " All the same thing . You are parking a trailer on land and living there .
Heres why most areas wont let them fly ......... TAXES the local government doesnt get enough taxes from them to fund schools , roads , emergency services .
You betcha they're concerned about taxes. I believe I have a decent solution to that as well. I can't give away all my secrets here! ;)
- Developer · Denver, CO · Member since 2019 · 273 posts · 106 votes7y
Originally posted by @Matthew Paul:
I have a camping trailer 30 ft long with a slide out . onr trip it rained all weekend ..............I have 2 boys ...............they are lucky to be alive after that weekend of being cooped up . Now in the morning after an evening of adult beverages and when i get up to take care of business , I have had the rest of the family evacuate the camper .
Tiny houses dont do well with Kids
I know a tiny home family that has THREE kids! They're finishing up their build right now and will be moving into it soon. I know another tiny home family that has 1 kid (another on the way) 3 cats and a dog! They LOVE their tiny home! It's about being more thoughtful on how you plan and work around challenges. Plus, living in a small space like that encourages better conflict resolution. You can't just run off, slam your bedroom door and hide from the challenges.
We've gotten so far away from our ancestral roots and disconnected ourselves from what makes us human. Mankind has long thought they can do anything and everything so much better. We're tribal and social creatures. While the advent of electricity, the internet, cell phones and the like are amazing tools, but as a very wise man in my life once told me "don't get used by your tools!"
- Rental Property Investor · Charlottesville, VA · Member since 2012 · 1k+ posts · 726 votes7y
@Account Closed Thanks for the response and I don't mean to rain on your parade as I like thoughtful, original thinking especially around affordable housing because I think that is a huge problem for our country right now. I am not kidding though about the 'tiny housing' trend in the 1930's. I was fascinated when I read about that. People will eventually want a real house so you need to plan your exit strategy accordingly, It's somewhat like the boom in apartments because of the millenial demographics. It won't last forever.
- Cleveland, OH · Member since 2019 · 114 posts · 40 votes7y
@Joe Callantine
I think it’s great for those whose lifestyle it fits. But if you really think about it... tiny homes are just a another way of saying mobile home.
- Developer · Denver, CO · Member since 2019 · 273 posts · 106 votes7y
Originally posted by @Chris Taylor:
@Joe Callantine
I think it’s great for those whose lifestyle it fits. But if you really think about it... tiny homes are just a another way of saying mobile home.
I can't really argue that. However, the construction and architecture of tiny homes is significantly better than traditional versions of a "mobile home".
- Cleveland, OH · Member since 2019 · 114 posts · 40 votes7y
@Joe Callantine
You’re exactly right ... I was actually going to mention construction because they’re usually custom made by a craftsman versus pre-manufactured parts put together in an assembly line.
- Developer · Denver, CO · Member since 2019 · 273 posts · 106 votes7y
Originally posted by @Chris Taylor:
@Joe Callantine
You’re exactly right ... I was actually going to mention construction because they’re usually custom made by a craftsman versus pre-manufactured parts put together in an assembly line.
And! The homes are typically customized to the lifestyles if the individuals. Which would bring my argument of the people assigning their own value to the [tiny] home they live in to point. Not so much a market value.
- Specialist · Huntsville, UT · Member since 2015 · 458 posts · 249 votes7y
I love the idea of tiny homes for those who like that kind of lifestyle or can't afford a larger home. Not to mention the space savings for over developed populations.
But I don't love the idea of mobile homes because of how they depreciate in value.
I love those tiny AFrame Kit homes. They're gorgeous, affordable, easy to assemble and will appreciate in value.
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